Need Advice: Including the xdBPD in the children's life?

[PearlsBefore]

Assuming the children appear to (finally) be coming to my sole custody with very few accommodations for the xdBPD as she has been a nightmare in the children's lives; suicide attempts in front of them while blaming is not even close to the worst thing if you can imagine...(typical "I can save her!" story, I was an arrogant moron - I get it, I get it).

I'm looking for suggestions though because I've privately assured her that even if the Court orders she has no right to contact (I'm not even asking for that, I'm just asking virtual weekly and supervised holiday with a relative or social worker at the restaurant/playground kinda deal for safety) I hope to still let her have some contact because I think it's in the children's interests (and probably hers).

Couple of problems though complicate the whole thing:

-Unsupervised seems out of the question, between harm to herself, harm to others, attempted kidnapping, defying Court Orders, she's a walking nightmare acting on impulse and doing incredibly destructive things...but at the same time I feel bad forcing her to have a relative (hers wouldn't likely help her, so it'd end up being one of mine) or social worker there which makes "seeing Mommy" a bit inauthentic for the children.

-She's threatened in the (distant) past that if I ever got majority custody of the children then she'd refuse to even send them a holiday card, etc - like she fought (very unsuccessfully other than draining resources and leaving the children sharing a room and Dad sleeping in the kitchen, and delaying everything) but she doesn't actually want them...in fact if she can't be 'the winner', she doesn't want to be reminded she's "the loser" by having to see them. Strongly suspect she'd wander off and be in a relationship within a month and identifying as a communist nazi cartographer faerie prostitute by the Wednesday after next, if you get the drift. But I don't WANT to risk her going NC on the children; the problem is she always loooved me (and then haaaaaaaaated me) but the children were always an inconvenience for which she only fought hoping to hurt me. How to convince her to show up for phone calls or drive down for a supervised holiday afternoon (without me)...when she's wanting to go nuclear NC on the kids.

-She took off across the country and spent the last couple years in Alberta defying Court Orders and generally being a "nuisance on a mountaintop daring the police to come get her" until they finally did, so to speak. She's not in prison (knock on wood) or anything, but she still lives across the country and is profligate and will never have the money but even if I offer to pay for a bus ticket (I'm below the poverty line obviously, hence the kitchen) for her to come see the kids for a couple consecutive afternoons over Christmas or something...she's likely going to demand "pay for a plane or else I'm not coming"; she doesn't have family or friends in Alberta though so it's possible she'll eventually give up and move somewhere moderately closer to the kids and me...but I think her identity is really tied up in this "hiding out on a mountaintop in Alberta" kinda delusion. (Gentlemen, she's libertine not libertarian - hold your horses and do not re-engage!)

-She's urged on by social groups to fight this tooth and nail, etc - but her heart honestly isn't in it; they pay for her to stay in hotels and order UberEats though if she'll let them use her story to raise funds, etc though so there's this toxic relationship between her and...they're not friends, they're just parasites using her to advance their social causes and views - don't know the actual word for these types. But basically they are part of the issue, they tell her "Do X, power-boss-woman move!" but they ultimately have no skin in the game, they set her up to fail and she's left holding the bag. They can't let themselves realise she really doesn't care about the children because then their hashtags might fall apart, but at the same time she just really doesn't want to disappoint them because a) she wants their money, and b) she likes to think that Colin Alistair Fothergill the XIIth is really her friend and really cares for her, not using her a poster-child for their "look how pathetic she is, you all remember this type of failure-to-thrive from high school right? Donate funds to our causes!" poster-girl. It's toxic for her, though I'm 90% past caring what she gets herself into in her desperation - I'm just exiting with the children...and trying to find some way to convince and enable her to participate in "1% custody" so the children aren't left with a huge absence leaving them thinking "I don't really have a mother". I want her to be someone they can picture, they shared a giggle last year when she did something silly, she sends them postcards or something.

Or correct me and tell me I'm wrong or failing to take into account something important; it's a hugely stressful day today and I don't mind some constructive criticism to occupy my mind as I avoid thinking about things

[Turkish]

That's so much to struggle and think about...

I'd default to the kids' safety. It's not your job to manage her relationship with them. They'll see you as they see you, and her as they see her.

One of my BFFs had his mother run off with their dad's best friend when he was about 12. His little sister was 8, and his older sister was in high school a year ahead of me. The mom was ordered to pay support, but she'd purposefully quit jobs if her income made it to that Guideline level. She would sometimes phone and send cards, but that dropped off.

To this day, only the older sister has a r/s with their mother. The younger kids couldn't give a crap despite periodic weak entreaties by their mom to re-engage.

Decades later, they have issues, sure, so say we all, but they're productive adults with their own families, even if grandma on one side is a non-entity. Hopefully, your exW doesn't become that, but the kids need safety foremost.

[ForeverDad]

Strongly suspect she'd wander off and be in a relationship within a month and identifying as a communist nazi cartographer faerie prostitute by the Wednesday after next, if you get the drift. But I don't WANT to risk her going NC on the children; the problem is she always loooved me (and then haaaaaaaaated me) but the children were always an inconvenience for which she only fought hoping to hurt me. How to convince her to show up for phone calls or drive down for a supervised holiday afternoon (without me)...when she's wanting to go nuclear NC on the kids.

Reading that, I am reminded of a post I made a few weeks ago, even when it wasn't nearly so serious as your current situation.  My point is that if a person is a very problematic parent and the courts have seen the wisdom to do the right thing and keep the problem parent away then don't sabotage yourself and the kids.

I remember once, just once, a dad complaining the ex often backed out of exchanges and failed to take the children.  My reply was, "Don't complain! Although it may frustrate your plans, Accept the Gift of additional parenting time."

-She's urged on by social groups to fight this tooth and nail, etc - but her heart honestly isn't in it... but they ultimately have no skin in the game, they set her up to fail and she's left holding the bag.

Over a decade ago, one of our members described how his ex was manipulating (not being manipulated as in your case) the social media and making his and his daughter's life extraordinarily difficult.  His ex was beyond BPD, evidently HPD - Histrionic.

My impression?  Please understand I'm trying to be as empathetic as possible but you would be exceedingly risking yourself and the children, as in self-sabotage, if you sought to reach out and even enable contact.  Please be cautious, don't invite more problems.

We know you wish to be fair and imagine your kids need contact, even if it is bad contact, but sadly it is too likely to be misguided wishing, or maybe an excessive sense of obligation that is something you need to address.

[PearlsBefore]

I appreciate the insight, and welcome dissenters or others contributing to a pile-on if I really am being short-sighted or stupid here. Honestly it's all getting tossed around in my head right now because of some insane stressors right now - (two of our young children are in the Emergency Room in different cities within a week - thoughts and prayers welcome of course) and I'm not in the mood to speak to anyone in the world tonight other than those with close loved ones with BPD.


That said, also me tonight:

[Turkish]

PB, your neither short sighted nor stupid. Many of us have been there. Talk it out. We'll support you.

In hope that your kids are OK!

[SaltyDawg]

PB,

   I will add my two cents.

   I am a father of two beautiful children with my uBPDw and there is almost no comparison to your situation and mine other than emotional damage that is occuring with the children.

   imho, the children's welfare [physical safety & emotional health] should come first when you gain full custody.  Ensure their safety first and foremost - no unsupervised visits especially considering the dangers involved.  Children are resilient, they need a calm, safe, and validating environment no matter what your financial situation.  I have travelled the world, and I see children in poverty with smiles on their faces playing in the streets with make-shift toys from discarded items, and I have also seen children in posh high end neighborhoods look miserable with the latest and greatest cell phone that they are engrossed in and too busy to interact with their parents/siblings sitting at the same table in a restaurant waiting for their food to come out.

   imho, the 2nd priority should be you, the person you see in a mirror, you say you are living in poverty, so please do not fund the mother's visits [plane ticket/bus ticket], save this money and do something nice with the children like taking them to the cinema or out for a small treat [candy/ice cream], or something else that isn't too expensive. 

   imho, the children's mother is a grown adult, she has the tools, but not the motivation to keep her children safe, so the legal system has deemed that she is a danger to those children by awarding custody to you.  It is up to the mother to 'fix herself' if she so chooses.  If you see her trying to 'fix herself', I personally would feel compelled to help her out.  However, if she shows no interest, other than using them as tools for financial gain, I would not go out of my way to make sure they stay connected as it will likely be more emotionally damaging than helpful -- do a cost/effort-benefit/reward analysis prior to having the mother in their lives.  However, do keep photo albums, so when the children do want to talk about their mother, you have something to talk about.  However, what you tell them should be 'age appropriate' and should be truthful, have some preplanned answers if the topic of abandonment comes up that tells the truth in a way that is not invalidating towards the mother.  [Example:  "Mommy has some issues she is working on right now, she loves you, but it is safer that she is not here"]

   In summary, imho, what you do with the children's mother in the children's life should solely be based on what the children's mother's effort is in staying connected with her children's lives.

   I hope that makes sense. 

   Do self-care first, take care of those beautiful children also first [a tie], and then take care of the rest.

SD

[Notwendy]

I am the adult child of a seriously affected BPD mother.

I can't tell you what to do, but I think your user name is a good metaphor for the situation and perhaps how I see things may help you decide.

There's nothing wrong about the swine. They are being exactly as they are made to be and doing what swine do. The reason why we don't cast pearls before a swine is about us, not the swine. Expecting a swine to value something we value is expecting them to be different than who they are. The outcome is that they won't value it, because they can't do that.

Due to my BPD mother's disorder, she isn't capable of being a mother in the way we expect mothers to be. It's not being critical of her that I say this, it's that she's got a mental illness. Expecting her to relate to her children like we think a mother is, is expecting her to be different.

I actually refer to the pearls before swine idea when considering what to share with my BPD mother. Personal feelings? No, because I need to protect my vulnerability. My private information? I have to keep it safe from her because she has shown to not keep a confidence.

While there has been some contact with my children, I have not left her alone with them, ever. They are adults now and know to have boundaries with her, so it's less of a concern now.

When you say you want your children to have a relationship with their mother, consider, is she capable of having a relationship with them?

Children are magical thinkers. Of course, they want their Mommy and I understand your fear of how they would feel if their mother disappeared. Consider though, was she ever a mother? Is she capable of being a mother? It's possible that they don't have a "mother" and would it do any good to continue contact with someone who appears to be their mother but can't be?

[kells76]

Hey PB, thanks for posting the update -- fingers crossed for you and the kids.

It's good that you recognize that you're under a lot of stress right now as you're thinking through if/how to have the kids' mom involved. The stress may be impacting your feelings, thoughts, beliefs, and ideas.

One belief that might be impacted by stress is the belief "I have to figure out the ideal involvement for her ASAP/now/soon". An alternative way to think about it could be this:

Right now, you can focus on your kids' health as #1, then the legal stuff as #2. Sorting out your hopes about her involvement can happen down the road. When you get sole custody, you don't have to instantly "find the optimal way for Mom to be involved that slightly tweaks the order". It's perfectly fine to give it some time according to the court order. So, perhaps that can reframe the urgency -- you can put on your calendar a date, like 6 months (or whatever) after the order is final, where you will say "I will review how the past 6 months according to the order have gone, and make my decision then".

I've noticed in my own life that when a pwBPD is involved, there can be a false sense of urgency about decision making.

My second thought is that we can't make anyone do anything, though I know you already know that. It would be better for your kids and their mom if she were a more functional, present person. We all want that when it's the kids' mom; of course they would do better if she could be involved in a positive, healthy, straightforward way.

She will struggle with normal range involvement, as you can guess. My thought is that what you do have control over on your end are the doors you choose to open. However, you can't make her walk through them. For example, after following the order for a good chunk of time, you might be willing to be flexible and try to accommodate some one-off changes. That might look like: you could offer for her to Skype with them for X hours on Christmas Day -- play a board game remotely, watch them open presents, whatever. End the email with "If I don't hear back from you by Date/Time, I'll assume it won't work out".

You will not be able to make her spend positive time with the kids. What you are able to do is offer safe doorways that you have documented (emails). It'll be up to her whether she chooses to go through those. Over time, save those emails, and any responses you get. I hope you would be able to look back on those and tell yourself: I did what was in my control to foster a safe relationship between my kids and their mom.

I hope you can give yourself a break right now from the feeling that you have to sort it all out for her. That's doing their mom's job for her. Take care of your kids, then take care of the legal stuff, get a court order, follow it, and then, when your mind is in a more grounded place, I bet you will have a lot more data from which to make a wise decision.

Hope that food for thought helps;

kells76