sex and my BPD wife

[Smedley Butler]

I'm just going to put this out there because I havent seen it talked about much on here or on the Reddit site I follow.  I'm going to very frank - one of the biggest struggles I am having right now is a completely unfulfilling sex life.   Married for 12 years.  I am 42 years old, and I still have mostly the same sex drive I did in my 20s.  My wife has, quite honestly, about zilch.  She will "give" me sex once a week or so if I ask, but that's entirely unfulfilling.  There is absolutely zero passion or desire that I can sense in her towards me.  I have actually caught her reading texts on her watch during sex (there's a real confidence booster).  It seems that sex to her is only a weapon to be wielded or a future counter-point to be made in an argument (she tells me I'm only nice to her when I want sex, she doesnt want to have sex with me until she feels "respected", we have sex once a week...i should be happy - these are all things she tells me when I have the courage to bring up the topic, which is rarely.)  I'm basically staring down the double barrels of a future of no sex, at least no real meaningful sex, and that is utterly depressing.  What's worse, is I find myself being drawn towards other women who actually DO seem to show me a little interest or respect.  I'm not a cheater, and I'm not going to go down that road, but man...it's tempting.  I also have two young girls that I am just unwilling to leave, so I also feel that divorce is not an option.  

All in all, I guess I'm not looking for any particular advice, just wanting to vent some frustration.

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[Bella2798]

I'm sorry for what you're going through, it must be so frustrating.

I remember the times when I was painted all black because I answered only 2 minutes late to his sex request, telling me that I don't respect and care about him, so he'll never ever degrade himself by asking me for sex. Doesn't seem so much similar to your situation but I was thinking for some people (with BPD) sex can be a sensitive point which they actually measure the love/respect we have for them with.

I hope things get better for you.
And also, feel free to vent. I have the minimum support from my family and friends so venting here even if no one reads my posts is a relief to my tension. I guess venting here is really a boost to our mental health, so keep venting whenever you need. ;)

[Chief Drizzt]

I’m in a very similar situation brother - though one big difference is that I am in my mid fifties and the drive to have sex isn’t quite what it used to be.  Having said that though - I do still desire my wife and long for intimacy with her but it’s been quite some time since that has been a reality.  It’s not looking like it’s going to ever be a reality again - particularly since I’m now blacklisted after our latest fight - which has been the worst in our 30 plus years of marriage. 

I am thankful that at least my drive is down and the lack of sex isn’t killing me.  I don’t know what I’d do if I were in your shoes and still was going like I was in my 20s.  I would caution you with regard to the other women you seem to be drawn to.  Whatever happens - don’t do it!  I know you said you wouldn’t but as time goes and the urge gets stronger I would just like to encourage to stay faithful to your wife.  Not only because it’s the right thing to do but also because of the devastation it will reap for your family.  I shudder to think of what would happen if I ever cheated on my wife and she found out - such an action could potentially be fatal to someone with BPD. 

I’m sorry you’re looking down that double barrel - if the sex is unfulfilling for you I know it really has to be depressing as you said.  I’ll just say I’m right there with you.  It truly sucks.

[uncleflo]

Thanks so much for your post, Smedley. It's like the elephant in the room for many men (and I bet many women too), that's for sure. I appreciate you bringing the elephant forward. 

It's like we're a mirror, Chief. I'm 48, and the sexual well has been dry since the latest devaluation phase. And it's always been hit-or-miss over the last 4-5 years… ah, who am I kidding… the majority of our marriage has been hit-or-miss. It's a weapon my pwBPD yields (i.e. do this, and we'll have more sex, do that, and we'll have more sex, on and on…) and I grew tired of being a thirsty little boy begging for water. In my evaluation of her behavior, she's only interested when she's getting attention from another source and I'm almost like a fill-in in these cases. My novelty has long worn off and my attention doesn't give her the dopamine hits she craves (she also has HPD as a comorbidity). There was a point years ago when I even said to her, "I'm fine with you getting attention as long as I'm the one doing the deed." Heck, at least we were having sex, right? Sigh. For the most part, I've made peace with the inconsistency and the excuses, sliding into the comfort of being more like a monk that realizes that sex won't bring me peace at the end of it all. Would it be nice to have a regular, loving marriage? Sure it would. It would also be nice if she didn't have BPD too!

I know one of these days she'll probably wield the weapon again (or maybe not at this point?) and now I'm wondering, "Can I resist it to show her that she's not in control any longer?" I've caved too many times in the past and a healthier approach to intimacy would be better than me thinking we've "yay, we've turned a corner," only to be left out in the cold again.

I'm glad we can all openly share our experiences with one another even though it's painful. Thank you to everybody for your help, your ears, and your friendship. Hugs and fist bumps all around.

Uncle

[Smedley Butler]

like i said, i'm not going to go down the cheating route.  but it's just so infuriating that she has me by both my heart (she knows i cant leave my girls) and my balls (she knows i'm sexually unfulfilled), and she knows she can treat me any way she wants.  truly, it's psychological abuse.    

personally, and this is just conjecture, but i'm pretty sure it's accurate, i think she WANTS me to cheat so that she can get the divorce she wants and also be the victim.  or she wants me to just file for divorce myself, for the same reason.  in her mind, she can just make it more and more miserable until i have to do one or the other.  she has an eternal victim complex, and a cheating husband that she is "forced" to leave would be the perfect cherry on the top of the victim narrative she has spun with our entire social and family network.  second best would be a husband filing for divorce despite how hard she worked to save the marriage.  EVERYTHING is designed with an agenda of how she will look to other people.  

[Smedley Butler]

I know one of these days she'll probably wield the weapon again (or maybe not at this point?) and now I'm wondering, "Can I resist it to show her that she's not in control any longer?" I've caved too many times in the past and a healthier approach to intimacy would be better than me thinking we've "yay, we've turned a corner," only to be left out in the cold again.

ugh, so true.  and the feeling of being a thirsty little boy is so demeaning.  a healthy sex life, i would think, would be a confidence booster for all involved.  instead it's the exact opposite for me (and it sounds like for you too).  i feel pathetic having to ask, i feel pathetic when I am (usually) rejected, and then i'm made to feel like a pervert if I EVER indicate that something other than her lying there like a cold dead fish would be welcome.  there's literally not one healthy or confidence boosting thing about our sex life (or really our marriage in general). 

fortunately, i have many hobbies and there's also beer.

[uncleflo]

ugh, so true.  and the feeling of being a thirsty little boy is so demeaning.  a healthy sex life, i would think, would be a confidence booster for all involved.  instead it's the exact opposite for me (and it sounds like for you too).  i feel pathetic having to ask, i feel pathetic when I am (usually) rejected, and then i'm made to feel like a pervert if I EVER indicate that something other than her lying there like a cold dead fish would be welcome.  there's literally not one healthy or confidence boosting thing about our sex life (or really our marriage in general). 

fortunately, i have many hobbies and there's also beer.

I feel you, my friend. Demeaning is a great word. You describe it all perfectly here.

My wife and I watched a show on sex dolls and the men who love them. She was like, "Who would do that?" And I was thinking, "Hmmm, I wonder if I have enough in the bank for one?" 

[LifewithEase]

I agree, this is not discussed enough on these BPDfamily boards.

Like others, my uBDPw uses sex against me - pretty much withholding it as a form of control. It was one of many foundational reasons we matched so well and marriage.

But then again, it isn't much different from other areas of intimacy.  BPD struggle with intimacy.

I organize intimacy in three buckets - vulnerability, emotional, and sexual. She is unable to be vulnerable (a primary characteristic of BPD). She struggles with emotional interactions, communication, and feelings. So sexual is in the outer-rim for me these days.

I also suspect that shame is such a driving issue that for her it is all intertwined with intimacy.

[mjh]

Sex is simply a tool for her to confirm her feelings at the time.  If she has split from you, your advances simply confirm her feelings that you are a horrible person that only wants her for sex. 

There is no grand plan, her feelings are her reality.  Your feelings and needs do not enter into the equation unless they confirm her reality.

[Outdorenthusiast]

So in my experience with my hf-uBPDw it seems there are three different personas in this regard:

1) White - The person with deep inner shame who “needs” to feel needed and will act her way through anything to not be abandoned. The overachiever. (How the hook gets set or reset if needed.)

2) Black - The rejector, disinterested, dead fish, vacant stare, on her phone in 2 seconds, manipulator, self absorbed (status most of the time and it makes you want to give up)

3) Real - someone who is actually “there” and engaged and not acting.

She recently confided in me that she has felt most of her whole life that she needed to give sex to feel accepted or it is her duty.  She is processing a lot of childhood abuse in counseling now.  As a husband - there is not much to say when someone says that.  Makes me feel like an abuser, although she admits I never have.

[mitten]

ugh, so true.  and the feeling of being a thirsty little boy is so demeaning.  a healthy sex life, i would think, would be a confidence booster for all involved.  instead it's the exact opposite for me (and it sounds like for you too).  i feel pathetic having to ask, i feel pathetic when I am (usually) rejected, and then i'm made to feel like a pervert if I EVER indicate that something other than her lying there like a cold dead fish would be welcome.  there's literally not one healthy or confidence boosting thing about our sex life (or really our marriage in general). 

fortunately, i have many hobbies and there's also beer.

Cheers!  I love beer as well.  Thank you for getting this topic started.  I experience the EXACT same thing.  She typically only wants sex if we're trying to conceive a child, or at midnight when she can't sleep or feels extra insecure for some random reason.  I swear I've seen her check her text messages on her watch as well.  Or maybe she was wondering when it was going to be over? haha.

[Pook075]

I'm sorry for what you're going through, it must be so frustrating.

I remember the times when I was painted all black because I answered only 2 minutes late to his sex request, telling me that I don't respect and care about him, so he'll never ever degrade himself by asking me for sex. Doesn't seem so much similar to your situation but I was thinking for some people (with BPD) sex can be a sensitive point which they actually measure the love/respect we have for them with.

I hope things get better for you.
And also, feel free to vent. I have the minimum support from my family and friends so venting here even if no one reads my posts is a relief to my tension. I guess venting here is really a boost to our mental health, so keep venting whenever you need. ;)

This was my experience too.  In 2003, my wife made me mad and I had a bad headache, so I went to bed early.  She came in wearing a sexy little thing and I pretended to be asleep.  When she started kissing me, I said my head was killing me and she stormed out of the room.

Anyway, when we separated last August, she brings this up and said that she hasn't tried to initiate sex since then because she was so humiliated.  She then said that she had to stand on the porch in her little nighty to calm down, and she stayed out there crying for hours in the dead of winter.  That was 20 years ago...she held that grudge for 20 freakin' years and never said a single word.

[Pook075]

One thing I want to add.  Most of the antidepressants on the market list a main side effect as a loss of sex drive or inability to orgasm.  It's very common and I'm guessing most people would never mention that to their physician.

[Lenfan2]

I have been on this site since 2016.  (l had to reregister as a new member just now because I had password issues and an expired email account, so disregard info about me as a new member. You  may be able to see my earlier posts under the name Lenfan when I opened up in some detail on this subject) A sexless marriage, with hurtful rejection, shaming, criticism and gaslighting is what brought me here. The issue comes up in discussions every few years but not enough, and no one has any answers or real problem solving advice, so it’s good you’re not asking for any and just want to vent. Venting helps. I got a therapist who helps me vent and at least reminds me that it’s not my fault.

It’s not your fault either. It’s not even really hers because she’s laboring under mental illness and doesn’t even know it. No one is to blame, as the old song says. So, unfortunately, the best you can do is to try and take the high road, whatever that means to you, and not take it personally. That last part is almost as difficult as the deprivation, but can go along way in keeping your confidence and self esteem. Good luck.  You are certainly not alone.

[Smedley Butler]

thanks Lenfan.  venting helps, but it's still depressing as hell knowing that I have another twelve years of this left.  it's just such a psychological beatdown, and no one in my life really understands except my therapist, who was also married to a BPD woman. 

[Smedley Butler]

i'm not sure how to find your old post on this topic...do you have a link you can share?

[Cat Familiar]

This happens also in marriages with BPD men. When my husband and I first got together, the sex was explosive. Obviously with time, things cooled down somewhat, but it still happened.

Then, like a light switch that got turned off, it was over one day.

Prior to that he’d had difficulty getting off. It was almost like he was no longer present. I wondered if he’d taken the blue pill, but of course he’s so private—he’d never admit to that. I’ve been told I look the same as I did 15 years ago, and I’ve always been thin and physically fit. So what was going on?

At that point, from my perspective, nothing much had changed, other than time passing. But what I didn’t realize is that he started harboring grievances against me for hurting his feelings.

It was things like comments about how much he was drinking or observing that he was being unconsciously unkind with some action or words. These, to me, are things that can be brought up in healthy relationships. But at the time, I didn’t realize that I was in an unhealthy relationship and that he had BPD.

So I just assumed that heated words can be said, apologies can happen, and life can go on, as normal. But no….

This moment when everything changed was when I made some mention that I was interested in intimacy soon, and he said, “I can’t trust you.”

I was shocked to my core. Both of us had previous relationships where our partners cheated, and we were collateral damage. I thought he knew I’d never do that.

But that was not what he meant. Of course he wouldn’t specify what he meant, either at that time or later. The core of it, I came to realize, was that I had *shamed* him by some of my comments and complaints. And for that, there was no going back.

And so it has gone. I’m OK with it, as hormones are no longer so intense. But there’s a level of sadness and no way have I been able to peek behind the curtain to really understand what on earth led him to abandoning the pleasure we once enjoyed together.

[Smedley Butler]

found this through a reddit page i follow.  pretty insightful, and she actually echoes a lot of what has been said already on this thread and others like it.

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/sex-and-control-how-men-get-screwed-by-emotionally-abusive-women/

Mod note: Shrink 4 Men: Online Reputation, Independent Review
Critical Review: Shrink 4 Men

[Outdorenthusiast]

Interesting Data Find …


Empirical studies of sexual behavior in individuals with borderline personality disorder

AUTHOR, YEAR, DIFFERENTIATING FINDING IN BPD
Hurlbert, 1992 : Greater sexual assertiveness, erotophilic attitudes, sexual esteem, sexual preoccupation, sexual dissatisfaction
Miller, 1993 : With substance abuse, greater promiscuity
Hull,  1993: More casual sexual relationships
Allan, 1998: More frequent high-risk sexual behaviors
Lavan, 2002: More frequent high-risk sexual behavior (non-use of condoms)
Chen, 2007: With substance abuse, higher prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases
Neeleman, 2007:   Greater sexual impulsivity, more homosexual experiences
Sansone, 2008: Earlier sexual experiences, greater likelihood of date rape
Sansone, 2009: More casual sexual relationships, greater promiscuity
Sansone, In press: Twice the number of sexual partners
Sansone, 2010: Greater number of sexual partners, greater likelihood of having been raped by a stranger and/or having been coerced to have sex

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3071095/

[lenfan]

SB:I think this link can take you to my earlier posts. Thanks for your interest.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=95458;sa=showPosts;start=30

PS. The orginal Smedley was a great man. Excellent choice of name.

[mitten]

found this through a reddit page i follow.  pretty insightful, and she actually echoes a lot of what has been said already on this thread and others like it.

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/sex-and-control-how-men-get-screwed-by-emotionally-abusive-women/

Amazing article and the comments that people let were even more valuable to me.  I spent about an hour or so reading them all.  They resonated so well with me.  Thanks for sharing!

[Smedley Butler]

Smedley Butler is my all time favorite Marine officer. Glad you know of him!

[Smedley Butler]

lenfan - just read through the majority of your old posts, with special attention paid to your two longer first couple of posts in 2017 on this same topic.  very insightful and it sounds like we have a lot of similarities in our situations (something i find myself saying to A LOT of guys, it seems like).   thank you for sharing the link to your old stuff, it was very good to read. 

i recommend to anyone else reading this thread to go take a look at lenfan's older posts, specifically the first couple.  again - no solutions really from anyone, but it's therapeutic to at least know we arent struggling alone.

hang in there, boys.

[outhere]

Hi everyone, I'm also glad that this topic came up as it is important but difficult to discuss.  I'm male, mid-fourties and my wife and I have been together for 15+ years and I could probably count the number of times we've had sex on 2 hands (might need some toes but doesn't feel like it).  Obviously we have bigger issues than just BPD at work here, I think that her contamination-OCD is a part of this as well, she asked me to wash my junk before fooling around when we were first dating.  And for myself, since my first playground kiss I've had the feeling that women are too complicated/intense and sex might not be worth the trouble .  But, trying to stay on the subject of BPD, I think that part of the issue is that I feel like her caregiver, and burdened by being the responsible one while she constantly loses her mind and does very little to contribute to the household... which I guess are attributes I find attractive, so I'm not really turned on by her, and feel a great distance from her because I live in the "trying to keep it together" world and she's living in chaos.  I wonder what it would be like to have a healthy sexual relationship, if such a thing exists, as I've never had one, perhaps because of my own issues as a "caregiver" or something else.

[LifewithEase]

It is such a relief to have this article posted. I hope it isn't buried in this post and can somehow be more accessible to others on this site.

It trying summarizes so much of the experiences so many of us have.

I'd love to pull out the passages that resonate but it would pretty much be the entire article. Control, shame, never being good enough, double standards, ...

found this through a reddit page i follow.  pretty insightful, and she actually echoes a lot of what has been said already on this thread and others like it.

https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/08/17/sex-and-control-how-men-get-screwed-by-emotionally-abusive-women/

Mod note: Shrink 4 Men: Online Reputation, Independent Review
Critical Review: Shrink 4 Men

[Outdorenthusiast]

Also a good learning workshop article here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=299970.0

[Justapotato]

If it’s any consolation I have problems on the other end of the spectrum… my bfwpbd needs Sex to feel validated and his sex drive and need being so high almost puts me off. It becomes necessary not just when the mood is right but also as a remedy for problems. And I’m not really into the whole passionate argument and make up sex… normally if we argue it’s enough to make me want to live on my own in the woods for a good week to recover, but he needs the closeness at times when he’s his least attractive… obviously I do it anyway but it can at times feel like a nurse dishing out medicine rather than partners enjoying each other.

Recently things had been really good again, enjoying sex as a natural thing and matching our sex drives. Or so I thought. Then suddenly he got depressed again after a passionate night involving alcohol and when I got to the bottom of it, he’s upset because now we don’t have enough ‘spontaneous Sex’. And by that I mean I pulled him away from a party of people to sneak off. Which did make us feel like kids again but isn’t something that can always be accommodated into adult life. So now it feels like no matter what I do it’s not enough. Once we reach a happy balance the benchmark for happiness just gets moved. Fighting a losing battle and though he’s apologised now and tried to make me feel better, it’s put me off Sex. Makes me feel like il never be enough for him.

For some reason my post only posted half of what i wrote and I spent ages thinking about it but now can’t remember what it was I wrote! So that will have to do for now but hopefully you understand it can be painful the other way round too…

[LifewithEase]

Justapotato,

Let me empathize with you.

First, with the lost long emails. It takes a lot of energy to craft these if just for the fact that BPD is so multifaceted.

I'm glad you shared the other end of the spectrum. It reaffirms the core issues. You state many:

"[BPDp needs xyz] to feel validated"

Always >> > " it feels like no matter what I do it’s not enough"... I live between this and double binds, where no matter what I'm always set up to fail

Another dynamic: "Once we reach a happy balance the benchmark for happiness just gets moved." The goal post is always moving, changing. Classically, real-time in a discussion or argument so it makes you feel like you're going in circles or losing your mind.

Money, status, kids' good behavior, health, etc... and sex "Makes me feel like it will never be enough for him." It will not ever be enough.

If it’s any consolation I have problems on the other end of the spectrum… my bfwpbd needs Sex to feel validated and his sex drive and need being so high almost puts me off. It becomes necessary not just when the mood is right but also as a remedy for problems. And I’m not really into the whole passionate argument and make up sex… normally if we argue it’s enough to make me want to live on my own in the woods for a good week to recover, but he needs the closeness at times when he’s his least attractive… obviously I do it anyway but it can at times feel like a nurse dishing out medicine rather than partners enjoying each other.

Recently things had been really good again, enjoying sex as a natural thing and matching our sex drives. Or so I thought. Then suddenly he got depressed again after a passionate night involving alcohol and when I got to the bottom of it, he’s upset because now we don’t have enough ‘spontaneous Sex’. And by that I mean I pulled him away from a party of people to sneak off. Which did make us feel like kids again but isn’t something that can always be accommodated into adult life. So now it feels like no matter what I do it’s not enough. Once we reach a happy balance the benchmark for happiness just gets moved. Fighting a losing battle and though he’s apologised now and tried to make me feel better, it’s put me off Sex. Makes me feel like il never be enough for him.

For some reason my post only posted half of what i wrote and I spent ages thinking about it but now can’t remember what it was I wrote! So that will have to do for now but hopefully you understand it can be painful the other way round too…

[CravingPeace]

ugh, so true.  and the feeling of being a thirsty little boy is so demeaning.  a healthy sex life, i would think, would be a confidence booster for all involved.  instead it's the exact opposite for me (and it sounds like for you too).  i feel pathetic having to ask, i feel pathetic when I am (usually) rejected, and then i'm made to feel like a pervert if I EVER indicate that something other than her lying there like a cold dead fish would be welcome.  there's literally not one healthy or confidence boosting thing about our sex life (or really our marriage in general). 

fortunately, i have many hobbies and there's also beer.

OMG OMG OMG. This is me. First post here, but I have started therapy with a specialist and everything is coming together. I could have written that myself! I have been married for 11 years, and with her for 16, don't get me started on the grudge she holds that it took me 5 years to propose, so could I really love her?
But Sex started well, other than she told me multiple stories of when she had been sexually abused which was hard to cope with, as I felt so much pity and shame, and guilt for then wanting to have sex! But anyway in the last 11 years I think we have had sex maybe 5 or 6 times. Pretty much when she wants a child, although she did throw me a bone on our wedding night as I nervously said shall we commsumate our marriage as I was to scared to be direct and try it on for fear of rejection. She obviously held that against me as not romantic enough. But anyway I digress. She now tells me the reason she doesn't want to have sex is in our first year together I said no a couple of times as I was tired. I had a busy job and had a shower before bed and so was wanting to go to sleep. Anyway now she says she spoke to her friends at the time and they said it was weird I didn't want sex everytime she offered. She has admitted that is what made her decide I wasn't into sex. I was blown away, this happened 16 years ago. I continually tried after that but got rejected so many times, I remember getting really frustrated and upset. In my previous relationships when I or my partner wanted sex we would just know, try it on with each other, and then have sex! I asked myself so many questions, what is wrong with me? Is she right I don't make her feel emotionally close, or don't do enough for her. Or she says I dont do the little things for her (which she wouldnt say what they were, but I should know if I loved her).  I am so tired of the little digs, the strange blaming, weird quirks like when I go to kiss her goodbye she turns her cheek to me and makes me feel rejected.  Anyway I am learning that BPD is likely what she has, it all makes sense the eating disorder as a tennager, the abandonment when her parents were divorced, the narcasist mother, the turn around of emotions so quickly, the abandonment fear, the pushing me away, and then complaining that I am distant, the inability to talk about anything that makes her vulnerable, the blaming me for everything that is wrong in her life. The jobs she has lost for falling out with people, the relationships she has just dropped and moved on from, the spending sprees then shame she feels,. I look at the list of symptoms after my therapist mentioned BPD and it all tallies. But what makes me really sad is how I have enabled. How I have pandered after her when she gives me the silent treatment, how I have always argued back with what I thought was right and wrong (but I am obviously always wrong), How I thought I could fix her/ to rescue her. I have learned I cannot fix her. I must fix myself and heal, and learn it was never about me. And detach. This will be hard for me as I crave the emotional closeness, the close and validating sex life. It has all happened over such a long time I have accepted it all, but at what cost. It is only now with children and being in my mid 40s I think should I move on? Can I handle Divorce, the loss of access to my kids, the costs. Or can she get better with therapy as well (she is trying and admits she is broken). It is so good to read people with exactly the same experiences. Not similar. But exactly the same. Thank you all.

[Lenfan2]

"She is trying and admits she is broken."


That's more than most of us can say, so there is some hope for you.

Otherwise, yes, exactly the same it seems when  it comes to sex. My wife has added "We're too old for that now" to the list of rejection excuses. We're just hitting our 60's. Yeah, there's mercifully less of an urge, but I'm not  not dead yet.