Update March 2023

[15years]

Haven't been as active here as previously. Still think it's important to share most of the bigger issues here as it's easier to refer to the things when I become desperate.

My own mental strength still getting better, lately I've been noticing how I can avoid drama by staying calm and positive. Reacting emotionally myself turns into situations that can later be referred to as fights, which I want to avoid. If I don't get emotional, it isn't a fight is it, it's just her. So I've managed to do that more often. I think I've become better at understanding the pink elephant idea. She can say anything about me, I notice how it upsets me but if I don't react, it passes quickly.

At the same time, I have also been doing quite the opposite already a few times this year, I get very angry back at her and say aggressive words of truth to her face, and I don't even completely regret them. With aggressive I mean things like "I will move out of here, just wait and see, it might not be now or next month, but one day I will!". This leads to her viewing me as a tyrant, but also makes her get back in line more often out of fear of me leaving. I don't think this will make the relationship or my own mental state better and it is something I want to avoid. Maybe I'm looking for an alternative to just staying calm all the time which is just not possible long term, maybe being able to say aggressive things without feeling very bad afterwards is a phase which will lead me to say more assertive things without feeling bad.

I have been able to relax more when things are calm, because I don't worry about dysregulation too much. I have partly been able to adapt the steely indifference attitude towards her anger. I have noticed that my understanding for her condition has increased. I avoid sarcasm and bitterness, instead I manage to view her realistically. I deeply understand that the insane things she say comes from very intense uncomfortable feelings. Even the violence. At the same time I've been thinking that even if I understand the cause, it doesn't mean I have to stay.

No question at this point but I appreciate comments either way

How are you all doing?

[ForeverDad]

Reacting emotionally myself turns into situations that can later be referred to as fights, which I want to avoid. If I don't get emotional, it isn't a fight is it, it's just her. So I've managed to do that more often.

While it may not be fights, it is still conflict and discord.

You're doing well not to lose your self control.  One way is to imagine the police or a judge sitting on your shoulder and observing you.

Consider too that she may be doing this, not just for her own feelings, but also to get you emotionally to and over the edge.  It's like pwBPD feed on the conflict, to get their release.

[15years]

While it may not be fights, it is still conflict and discord.

You're doing well not to lose your self control.  One way is to imagine the police or a judge sitting on your shoulder and observing you.

Consider too that she may be doing this, not just for her own feelings, but also to get you emotionally to and over the edge.  It's like pwBPD feed on the conflict, to get their release.

Good imagery, thanks!

"it is still conflict and discord" hm yeah maybe... But is it a conflict though... If a drunk stranger comes up to me in the street and seems upset with me, if I don't argue and keep away from him physically, it's just an upset drunk person. If I even try to help him somehow, that's not a conflict either, but it does make me seem stupid.

But yeah, sometimes it has to be called conflicts, if there are reasonable complaints involved, but at some point it does go from being a conflict to just being her emotional chaos.

Is this reasonable?
Conflict - necessary - unhealthy to avoid
Never-ending conflict - unhealthy - out of my control if I've tried the step above.
Fights - unhealthy conflict - avoidable by not engaging, healthy to avoid

[EZEarache]

At the same time, I have also been doing quite the opposite already a few times this year, I get very angry back at her and say aggressive words of truth to her face, and I don't even completely regret them. With aggressive I mean things like "I will move out of here, just wait and see, it might not be now or next month, but one day I will!". This leads to her viewing me as a tyrant, but also makes her get back in line more often out of fear of me leaving. I don't think this will make the relationship or my own mental state better and it is something I want to avoid. Maybe I'm looking for an alternative to just staying calm all the time which is just not possible long term, maybe being able to say aggressive things without feeling very bad afterwards is a phase which will lead me to say more assertive things without feeling bad.

From my own experience, definitely refrain from threatening to leave if you are trying to maintain this relationship. This is actually a form of emotional abuse on your part.

One of my biggest regrets from the demise of my relationship is my own threatening to leave. It felt very real at the time, and obviously since I don't live there anymore, I meant what I said. However, when my son who is now 2.75 year old starts saying, "Mommy, Daddy, Mommy Daddy, Mommy Daddy!" at bedtime there is a major amount of guilt as a result of this past behavior on my part. I start second guessing all of my past actions that run through my head. Maybe, if I hadn't packed my bags in that one fight that last three days, my son would still be able to say, "Mommy, Daddy!" at bedtime and we would both be there.

It's really difficult to always maintain your composure and not JADE during a dysregulation. I mean, really hard. Congratulations on making the effort and having, what sounds like a great deal of success. Best of luck in your journey.

[15years]

EZEarache - Thank you for your comment. I do agree that it is a little abusive to say things like that. However, there is a point in these threats too - it does make her familiar with the thought and if/when I leave it will be less of a shock than if I wouldn't have said anything. Of course I could have been kinder. It's a journey.

I don't want to cause her emotional stress, but I can't ignore that it seems to have contributed to increasing my own self confidence level. And I desperately needed more self confidence. My point is that now that I'm a little more self confident, I can start being kind not out of fear but out of self control and empathy. My hope is that if I leave, I may be able to do it not with anger as the driving force, rather acceptance.

[Notwendy]

It's good that you are feeling more confident and not tolerating abusive behavior. I will second the others in saying that threats to leave are damaging, whether you intend to leave or not- you share children together and will need to be in some kind of relationship at least as co-parents. In addition, threats to leave without actually leaving become empty threats and less believable over time. They may work to scare her into behaving better but eventually lose that power, and it's not a good thing to gain control by fear.

Mostly I complied with my mother because I feared her reaction. I recall, when I first began to assert boundaries, I got angry at her and yelled at her. I realized that it appeared she was afraid of that which really surprised me as I am not abusive and we, her family members, are  mostly afraid of her behavior. I didn't imagine she'd be the one who was behaving better out of fear. It was the first time I could see that, as scared as we were of her as kids, she's can also be  afraid of me and I never considered that.

I have done nothing to cause her to be fearful. I've mostly walked on eggshells and complied with her and not expressed any anger to her. It's been the other way around from my perspective- her raging at us. So how could this be possible?

On the Karpman triangle, her perspective is victim. Even if we feel it's her behavior that is the main issue, she sees it the other way and when she rages back, to her it's self defense. Even if we have done nothing to cause her to feel this way- it's her thinking and her own feelings that do this. So if someone were to get angry at her, this would fit the perception of victim.

I am not excusing your wife's behavior as she is abusive to you. But I think the reason behind her behavior is distorted thinking. That doesn't make the behavior OK but it also means she's going to see your anger and aggression through her own thinking and feelings. If she's thinking a teacher who happens to have been a girlfriend in middle school is somehow out to seduce you years later, or that all men are toxic abusers, - that's very distorted thinking. If she's already feeling like a victim when there's no reason to think that, then being angry and aggressive at her will also be perceived in that way.

When we are angry, we do feel justified and confident. In the moment, when I was yelling at my mother, it felt justified too and considering why I was upset with her, there was reason to feel angry. I was naive about the perspective of someone with BPD at the time though, underestimated her feeling like a victim, and also underestimated her reaction as well as her tendency to project and dissociate. She may behave better momentarily, but it's ineffective.

So what do you do with anger? There's nothing wrong with feeling angry. It's an emotion just like other ones. It's survival emotion though- it activates our fight or flight responses. It has evolutionary advantage. We humans are still built like our ancestors who had to run from wild animals at some point. Anger gives us that adrenaline rush but when we are in "survival mode" we also aren't using our higher brain thinking and may say or do things we ordinarily would not do. The better way to handle anger is to do some self care. If you are being physically attacked, remove yourself from the situation. If you are feeling angry for another reason- remove yourself from the conversation, take a walk, calm down. You can respond to it - but when you have calmed down.

If you find yourself being so angry and want to leave the relationship- then take that step, but it seems you are still wanting to stay- so the threats don't have meaning.

[15years]

Thank you Notwendy, this helped to make my thoughts clearer.


I do have to say though. One more positive result of threatening to leave is that it has made me realize that I can also be emotionally aggressive. But after realizing that of course I need to stop and learn to not use my aggression like that. So far I've been called abusive also when I've been trying to help her. The fear that she might see me as a bad person is not close to as significant as it used to.

Is it a threat to simply say out of frustration things like; "You are really difficult to live with"? It's not meant as a threat but she perceives it like that because of her fear of abandonment.

[ForeverDad]

Is it a threat to simply say out of frustration things like; "You are really difficult to live with"? It's not meant as a threat but she perceives it like that because of her fear of abandonment.

It is a Sisyphus* doomed-to-fail struggle to succeed in convincing her otherwise.  She will perceive whatever she is internally impelled to perceive.

* In mythology Hades punished Sisyphus for cheating death twice by forcing him to roll an immense boulder up a hill only for it to roll back down every time it neared the top, repeating this action for eternity.