SD17 anger/blame towards DH and now me

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

*note, midway through there will be some faith-based stuff I bring up about my values, so feel free to skip only that section or the whole thread if you want*

It's been a hard few weeks.

April we left off here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=355340.0

then had some okay times (took SD15 on a birthday trip with friends). Positives are that SD15 & DH have a show they both love to watch together, and there are like 16 seasons plus spinoffs or something crazy, so it's good that she has a "thing" where she really wants to spend time with DH doing that. Sure, it's TV, but they talk about characters they like, and then for SD15's birthday, DH took her to a cool store out of town where she could get something that looked like something she liked from the show.

But somehow it seems difficult for both kids to have a positive relationship with DH at the same time -- if they both do, it doesn't last long for one or the other. I understand that it could be related to age/developmental differences, and I know there is a cyclical aspect to child development/integration, but it's hard to watch as it comes across as "one good relationship at the expense of the other".

...

So, two weeks ago SD17 was telling us about a story her friend was writing, and how all the friends in this friend group thought the story was super emotionally intense and over the top. DH made a comment like "what could Friend even do next, have the characters start cutting themselves?" and SD17 got quiet/in a mood. DH didn't seem to notice and made some more comments. I also thought at first that SD17 could see that it was a joke, but she was getting more upset, said something like "what do you even know about it", and DH started to say something but then stopped. SD17 didn't say anything else and DH went outside, but a little later, I felt "the vibes" from SD17 still, so I took the plunge and asked her if she wanted to talk about self harm with me at all. She was really upset at DH for being extremely insensitive and not "reading the room". I asked if she knew why he stopped talking about it, and commented that it was probably to protect my privacy, because it was something I'd coped with in the past. She did a "yeah, but I'm talking about him, not you" move. We talked some about how she and he are really different people, and because of his experiences, he copes with those topics with dark humor, and she clearly does not. She said she understood but it was still his job as the adult to care about/pay attention to how she was feeling. I said that it sounded like whatever he did or didn't mean or intend, that that impacted her a lot, as I saw her crying, and that would be important to talk about with him. She said she knew she should talk to him, but went out on a long walk -- I'm not sure where (Mom's house is within walking distance).

I was upset with DH at that point, so I went outside to talk to him, and also give him a heads up, because I didn't know if he was aware of how upset SD17 was. He was really upset too, and said he noticed she was upset but he wasn't sure why, and said something about how she was having a big reaction. I got set off too, and said that he wasn't going to get anywhere with her if he started like that. He got mad with me and said "I'm just telling you how I'm feeling, and obviously that doesn't matter because there's no room for how I'm feeling here." I think I said something like I just want to help, and he said you don't have to get involved in this, and I said I wished I didn't have to, and then went back inside.

SD17 came back and talked to DH outside for a couple minutes, then I think just spent time in her room for a while. Later on she went on another long walk -- again, we have no idea whether she went to Mom's or not, and didn't ask. By the end of the day she did let DH read out loud to her (kind of their thing), but she didn't hug him goodbye.

I was pretty upset with DH for a couple weeks because from my perspective it seemed like he was really invalidating. I thought that no, of course he shouldn't apologize for responding to SI/SH stuff differently than her, but I thought he should apologize for unintentionally invalidating her by not noticing how she was feeling. I didn't talk to him about it, because I was feeling so angry that I wasn't sure I could do so calmly, and also -- and I think this is maybe a big part of the conflicts -- his "core wound" I think is that he has been the scapegoat in many relationships with women for most of his life (fights with his mom, his sister blaming him for "being abusive", then all the stuff with ex). So he reacts strongly to situations where a close female has a big blame response to him. This has stopped me a lot from being angry with him, because it also combines with my past, where the message was "if you say anything, that just makes it worse". So I have had a lot of internal anger for the last couple of weeks. A lot of it came out this past Thursday in front of DH, but mostly directed at myself, and he had a hard time with that. I struggle with the belief that I should not express that kind of anger right before we are with the kids for the weekend, because we need to be a team on the same page if we're going to make it through the weekend with the kids, and if he's upset/off balance/distracted, then that's not good for the kids.

We were with the kids this last weekend anyway. SD17 had loaded herself up with work shifts every day, we didn't ask why (it's a self-schedule job so she has options about not working when she's with us). I was driving her in to work on Saturday, and was telling her this funny dream I'd had about SD15, and she asked me why I didn't use SD15's preferred pronouns. I said "Well, SD15 doesn't want to be called X or Y, right?" and SD17 said Obviously. So I said, "So I don't". She asked me why I don't say the ones SD15 wants, and I said that that's the best way I've found so far to thread the needle between hearing what other people want, and balancing that with living out my own values and integrity. She went quiet for a bit but again, I felt "the vibes" that she wasn't done, so again I took the plunge and asked if there was anything else she wanted to know or talk about. We tried talking a bit about gender &/or sex, and I was saying stuff like "well, we probably see it differently there, but in this area I think we're on the same page" and SD17 was pushing back with "I don't think we have any common ground". She then went in on me about how simple and obvious it is to just use preferred pronouns, that it's deeply meaningful to SD15, how it makes no sense that I don't, and how she didn't want to hear me talk about myself or my own experience, as "your experience has nothing to do with what's good for someone else". She said that I was rigid about sex and gender and said that "it's not black and white". She went on for a while in a pretty activated way. I asked her if she'd ever been in a situation where she had to make a choice about living with integrity, and she said "all the time" and then implied that she regularly compromises her own values to be with DH and I. By this time we were at her work, so I told her I loved her and was glad she felt like she could tell me about that. She didn't tell me she loved me or give me a hug like usual.

DH picked her up later; in the meantime, I did what I'd normally do to care about her -- brought in some stuff from the car she'd asked about, plus a hot water bottle for bed. She seemed in an OK mood walking in, said she was totally dirty from work but I gave her a hug anyway. She said she needed to grab her stuff from the car, I said I already got it for you, & she seemed grateful. Then she asked if she could have a hot water bottle, and I said it was already done, and she seemed grateful for that too. Early a.m. next day I washed all her work stuff so it'd be ready for her morning shift. Basically, I was trying to model "you can be as angry with me as you need to, that doesn't change the fact that I love you, and I'm not taking anything out on you".

I drove her in to work the next day and (silly me) opened the door again -- "Hey, I know it's tricky having long stretches of time to talk with you, but if there's anything else you want me to know about what you think, let me know, or email me, I'm open to that". Again she went in on me about how she knows now that there are parts of herself she can never tell me about, etc etc. I said that that sounded good, and that what was most important was that she not tell me things just because it might make me happy. She definitely doubled down on "I'm never telling you some things about me, this all just clarifies it for me". Again I said I loved her and would see her later.

DH picked her up and we all went to dinner at my parents' house (my parents share some similar values). While hanging out in the kitchen together, SD17 pulls this book out of her bag and opens it on the table at Chapter 1 and "starts to read" (though also has her phone out at the same time). My dad asked "hey, what book are you reading" and she told him the title. Joking, he said "I've read that too!" and she said "Really?" He said "Nope!" and she said "I thought not, because it's about [R-rated topic]". The topic of the book would basically be like bringing bacon to dinner at a kosher-observing home -- that flagrantly opposite. To my parents' credit, neither of them reacted, and my dad even kept joking about the book title. DH asked SD17 where she got the book. She was like, What do you mean? He said "Where did you get the book, like from a bookstore, or..."? She said "From [Mom's sister]". This sister is in some kind of "open marriage" setup and is who Mom stayed with when she left for a few months last summer.

So nobody reacted to the book, and later DH said "SD17, make sure to put media away when dinner starts". She did comply with that (book and phone). Over time as dinner progressed, SD17 did seem to get back to her more normal self, and listened to my parents tell some stories. She did hug both my parents at the end. When we dropped kids off at Mom's, neither of them hugged us. We did tell them we loved them.

...

I get that SD17 is in a push-away/reactive place right now. I get that there is legitimacy to some things both DH and I do/say/believe that she is pushing against. I understand that that is a developmentally normal thing.

It is really hard to hear her use loaded language with both of us that, to me at least, is so obviously a game of "emotional pin the tail on the donkey". What I mean by that is -- she blamed DH for not noticing how she was feeling, and told me how insensitive he is, and that his job is to notice/care about how she's feeling. With me, she actually went so far as to say that if I did not actively use someone's preferred pronouns (even if I didn't use the ones they didn't want), I was betraying them.

I think SD17 is right that there is insensitivity and betrayal going on in her life. But I think there's a misattribution of causality. If she looks around at which adults aren't caring about how she feels about something, and which adults are engaging in betrayal, yeah, when Stepdad has an emotional affair, there's a lot of insensitivity and betrayal there. But there is nothing I can do to point out to here "yeah, your radar is correct in noticing that there is insensitivity and betrayal going on around you... and it's really uncomfortable for you to hold those feelings... so you are pinning them on whatever is 'close enough' in hopes of feeling better... but did you get it right?"

DH told me he knows she loves me. I told him I know that she's probably only unloading on us because she feels safe to do so, but it's hard to believe sometimes. He thinks things might get worse before they get better.

...

So I'm having a difficult time juggling anger at DH, anger at SD17, and feeling beyond overwhelmed. I have been numbing out/ignoring feelings to make it through for many, many months. It is too difficult to show up with feelings when at any moment, things that have seemed to be going well just fall apart.

I know there's a ton more here. Lots of Karpman drama triangle stuff going on. But I have to wrap this up (at work currently).

I weirdly do have a vacation coming up, just me, out of town. Probably good timing to get away.

[kells76]

*note, midway through there will be some faith-based stuff I bring up about my values, so feel free to skip only that section or the whole thread if you want*

It's been a hard few weeks.

April we left off here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=355340.0

then had some okay times (took SD15 on a birthday trip with friends). Positives are that SD15 & DH have a show they both love to watch together, and there are like 16 seasons plus spinoffs or something crazy, so it's good that she has a "thing" where she really wants to spend time with DH doing that. Sure, it's TV, but they talk about characters they like, and then for SD15's birthday, DH took her to a cool store out of town where she could get something that looked like something she liked from the show.

But somehow it seems difficult for both kids to have a positive relationship with DH at the same time -- if they both do, it doesn't last long for one or the other. I understand that it could be related to age/developmental differences, and I know there is a cyclical aspect to child development/integration, but it's hard to watch as it comes across as "one good relationship at the expense of the other".

...

So, two weeks ago SD17 was telling us about a story her friend was writing, and how all the friends in this friend group thought the story was super emotionally intense and over the top. DH made a comment like "what could Friend even do next, have the characters start cutting themselves?" and SD17 got quiet/in a mood. DH didn't seem to notice and made some more comments. I also thought at first that SD17 could see that it was a joke, but she was getting more upset, said something like "what do you even know about it", and DH started to say something but then stopped. SD17 didn't say anything else and DH went outside, but a little later, I felt "the vibes" from SD17 still, so I took the plunge and asked her if she wanted to talk about self harm with me at all. She was really upset at DH for being extremely insensitive and not "reading the room". I asked if she knew why he stopped talking about it, and commented that it was probably to protect my privacy, because it was something I'd coped with in the past. She did a "yeah, but I'm talking about him, not you" move. We talked some about how she and he are really different people, and because of his experiences, he copes with those topics with dark humor, and she clearly does not. She said she understood but it was still his job as the adult to care about/pay attention to how she was feeling. I said that it sounded like whatever he did or didn't mean or intend, that that impacted her a lot, as I saw her crying, and that would be important to talk about with him. She said she knew she should talk to him, but went out on a long walk -- I'm not sure where (Mom's house is within walking distance).

I was upset with DH at that point, so I went outside to talk to him, and also give him a heads up, because I didn't know if he was aware of how upset SD17 was. He was really upset too, and said he noticed she was upset but he wasn't sure why, and said something about how she was having a big reaction. I got set off too, and said that he wasn't going to get anywhere with her if he started like that. He got mad with me and said "I'm just telling you how I'm feeling, and obviously that doesn't matter because there's no room for how I'm feeling here." I think I said something like I just want to help, and he said you don't have to get involved in this, and I said I wished I didn't have to, and then went back inside.

SD17 came back and talked to DH outside for a couple minutes, then I think just spent time in her room for a while. Later on she went on another long walk -- again, we have no idea whether she went to Mom's or not, and didn't ask. By the end of the day she did let DH read out loud to her (kind of their thing), but she didn't hug him goodbye.

I was pretty upset with DH for a couple weeks because from my perspective it seemed like he was really invalidating. I thought that no, of course he shouldn't apologize for responding to SI/SH stuff differently than her, but I thought he should apologize for unintentionally invalidating her by not noticing how she was feeling. I didn't talk to him about it, because I was feeling so angry that I wasn't sure I could do so calmly, and also -- and I think this is maybe a big part of the conflicts -- his "core wound" I think is that he has been the scapegoat in many relationships with women for most of his life (fights with his mom, his sister blaming him for "being abusive", then all the stuff with ex). So he reacts strongly to situations where a close female has a big blame response to him. This has stopped me a lot from being angry with him, because it also combines with my past, where the message was "if you say anything, that just makes it worse". So I have had a lot of internal anger for the last couple of weeks. A lot of it came out this past Thursday in front of DH, but mostly directed at myself, and he had a hard time with that. I struggle with the belief that I should not express that kind of anger right before we are with the kids for the weekend, because we need to be a team on the same page if we're going to make it through the weekend with the kids, and if he's upset/off balance/distracted, then that's not good for the kids.

We were with the kids this last weekend anyway. SD17 had loaded herself up with work shifts every day, we didn't ask why (it's a self-schedule job so she has options about not working when she's with us). I was driving her in to work on Saturday, and was telling her this funny dream I'd had about SD15, and she asked me why I didn't use SD15's preferred pronouns. I said "Well, SD15 doesn't want to be called X or Y, right?" and SD17 said Obviously. So I said, "So I don't". She asked me why I don't say the ones SD15 wants, and I said that that's the best way I've found so far to thread the needle between hearing what other people want, and balancing that with living out my own values and integrity. She went quiet for a bit but again, I felt "the vibes" that she wasn't done, so again I took the plunge and asked if there was anything else she wanted to know or talk about. We tried talking a bit about gender &/or sex, and I was saying stuff like "well, we probably see it differently there, but in this area I think we're on the same page" and SD17 was pushing back with "I don't think we have any common ground". She then went in on me about how simple and obvious it is to just use preferred pronouns, that it's deeply meaningful to SD15, how it makes no sense that I don't, and how she didn't want to hear me talk about myself or my own experience, as "your experience has nothing to do with what's good for someone else". She said that I was rigid about sex and gender and said that "it's not black and white". She went on for a while in a pretty activated way. I asked her if she'd ever been in a situation where she had to make a choice about living with integrity, and she said "all the time" and then implied that she regularly compromises her own values to be with DH and I. By this time we were at her work, so I told her I loved her and was glad she felt like she could tell me about that. She didn't tell me she loved me or give me a hug like usual.

DH picked her up later; in the meantime, I did what I'd normally do to care about her -- brought in some stuff from the car she'd asked about, plus a hot water bottle for bed. She seemed in an OK mood walking in, said she was totally dirty from work but I gave her a hug anyway. She said she needed to grab her stuff from the car, I said I already got it for you, & she seemed grateful. Then she asked if she could have a hot water bottle, and I said it was already done, and she seemed grateful for that too. Early a.m. next day I washed all her work stuff so it'd be ready for her morning shift. Basically, I was trying to model "you can be as angry with me as you need to, that doesn't change the fact that I love you, and I'm not taking anything out on you".

I drove her in to work the next day and (silly me) opened the door again -- "Hey, I know it's tricky having long stretches of time to talk with you, but if there's anything else you want me to know about what you think, let me know, or email me, I'm open to that". Again she went in on me about how she knows now that there are parts of herself she can never tell me about, etc etc. I said that that sounded good, and that what was most important was that she not tell me things just because it might make me happy. She definitely doubled down on "I'm never telling you some things about me, this all just clarifies it for me". Again I said I loved her and would see her later.

DH picked her up and we all went to dinner at my parents' house (my parents share some similar values). While hanging out in the kitchen together, SD17 pulls this book out of her bag and opens it on the table at Chapter 1 and "starts to read" (though also has her phone out at the same time). My dad asked "hey, what book are you reading" and she told him the title. Joking, he said "I've read that too!" and she said "Really?" He said "Nope!" and she said "I thought not, because it's about [R-rated topic]". The topic of the book would basically be like bringing bacon to dinner at a kosher-observing home -- that flagrantly opposite. To my parents' credit, neither of them reacted, and my dad even kept joking about the book title. DH asked SD17 where she got the book. She was like, What do you mean? He said "Where did you get the book, like from a bookstore, or..."? She said "From [Mom's sister]". This sister is in some kind of "open marriage" setup and is who Mom stayed with when she left for a few months last summer.

So nobody reacted to the book, and later DH said "SD17, make sure to put media away when dinner starts". She did comply with that (book and phone). Over time as dinner progressed, SD17 did seem to get back to her more normal self, and listened to my parents tell some stories. She did hug both my parents at the end. When we dropped kids off at Mom's, neither of them hugged us. We did tell them we loved them.

...

I get that SD17 is in a push-away/reactive place right now. I get that there is legitimacy to some things both DH and I do/say/believe that she is pushing against. I understand that that is a developmentally normal thing.

It is really hard to hear her use loaded language with both of us that, to me at least, is so obviously a game of "emotional pin the tail on the donkey". What I mean by that is -- she blamed DH for not noticing how she was feeling, and told me how insensitive he is, and that his job is to notice/care about how she's feeling. With me, she actually went so far as to say that if I did not actively use someone's preferred pronouns (even if I didn't use the ones they didn't want), I was betraying them.

I think SD17 is right that there is insensitivity and betrayal going on in her life. But I think there's a misattribution of causality. If she looks around at which adults aren't caring about how she feels about something, and which adults are engaging in betrayal, yeah, when Stepdad has an emotional affair, there's a lot of insensitivity and betrayal there. But there is nothing I can do to point out to here "yeah, your radar is correct in noticing that there is insensitivity and betrayal going on around you... and it's really uncomfortable for you to hold those feelings... so you are pinning them on whatever is 'close enough' in hopes of feeling better... but did you get it right?"

DH told me he knows she loves me. I told him I know that she's probably only unloading on us because she feels safe to do so, but it's hard to believe sometimes. He thinks things might get worse before they get better.

...

So I'm having a difficult time juggling anger at DH, anger at SD17, and feeling beyond overwhelmed. I have been numbing out/ignoring feelings to make it through for many, many months. It is too difficult to show up with feelings when at any moment, things that have seemed to be going well just fall apart.

I know there's a ton more here. Lots of Karpman drama triangle stuff going on. But I have to wrap this up (at work currently).

I weirdly do have a vacation coming up, just me, out of town. Probably good timing to get away.

[Notwendy]

Some of this is teen age behavior and also some is reflection of our current times. Even though there have always been political and religious differences between people, I don't recall this level of critical and even sometimes disrespectful behavior between people who don't agree. I think social medial has influenced this. It's easier to be disrespectful when not speaking face to face.

I think the media has influenced this too. It seems every TV show, movie, has some level of disrespectful language, far too much sex and violence for my own preferences, and more opinion than news- from both sides of the political fence IMHO.

I know we avoid politics here and don't wish to instigate any disagreement. I have family and still have friends (I hope) from both ends of the political fence although I think this circle has gotten smaller as people are pulled to one side or the other. I do try to listen to each perspective as much as possible. I have my own thoughts about it too  but don't take sides in discussions- because it doesn't usually lead to anything good.

There are some influences of all of this on the younger generation. My MIL is very religious, her grandkids not all of them are as much in adherence to her religion as she is. I overheard a grandchild ( not my kids, they'd have been taken to task for that) telling grandma that her religion is fake. It's something similar to your SD 17 bringing that book to her grandparents'. Disrespectful, and also attention seeking and actually not necessary. Why not let grandma believe what she believes and other people can believe something else? Grandma didn't force anyone else to be religious or tell them they were wrong to not believe like her. Kudos to your parents for not reacting. I think that was handled well. Grandma didn't react either and just loves all the grandkids.  This is teen age acting out. I think this demonstrates maturity and tolerance.

The current ideas about pronouns are new. None of us grew up with this. It feels odd to us to not use the language terms we are used to- regardless of what side we take on this. It's not easy to change our language terms, even if we want to. I know from listening though that if someone doesn't use the preferred pronouns, or uses a former name, it's considered to be disrespectful to that person. Your SD17 is repeating what she has heard to be true in her world and also from her mother and SD. I also understand your perspective - to validate what is true for you and not validate what isn't.

IMHO, we are now so divided on this issue, I don't believe there's a way to come to any mutual understanding of what is a complex situation in our current divisions. Your SD 17 is adhering to what she's been told. She's not mature enough to think otherwise- yet.

I also think there's a bit of "poisoning the well" from mother and step dad in their attempts to be the cool parents and frame you and DH as the old fuddy duddies but you two are the parents here too. Your job isn't to mold yourself to what SD 17 thinks you should be. Your job is to be the boundaries and the example. I actually think it's a good thing that my own kids have to figure out how to get along with the various political views of the different family members. They will have their own views. I still think the most important thing you are doing is showing them unconditional love and consistent parenting and what your values are, even of the kids reject them now. By not reacting or not changing, you are demonstrating tolerance which is- we don't agree but we can still love each other.

[livednlearned]

Some of the same kinds of cool winds blow through our family dynamics, right down to H feeling like the punching bag for angry females from family of origin to his daughters.

Less so as the kids get older but we have definitely felt the chilliness when our words aren't correct and are interpreted to mean the worst thing ever.

But then our kids do things I find so unbelievably hypocritical. Do as I say not as I do applies just as much to righteous kids as it does to adults.

My guess is that even if you had the exact same views as your girls and did everything right, you would still eventually step in it.

We just kind of do our best and shrug when it's not enough.

Your views are known to be different and yet your family navigates this incredibly tricky path with hugs and a lot of checking in. Could it be that you're losing this battle while winning the war? Sorry to invoke adversarial metaphors but this is the land of PDs  .

I mean, everyone is checking in with everyone. You're noticing when people don't hug, but this is because y'all are hugging most of the time. You're having dinner with your parents and they're able to make light of heaviness and difference that probably seems alien after a lifetime of battling different kinds of headwinds. They are covered in life's scars and are able to weather SD17's preciousness without emotionally injuring anyone. It's very impressive!

I know it feels awful because it's complex and people's feelings are hurt all at the same time, each of you needing something from someone else who is in pain. It's so hard when the timing works like that, regardless of what the hurt might be.

The teen years were pretty horrible for H and I, with our kids doling out hurt pancakes in very different ways, like they figured let's check all the boxes on ways we can kick our parents down. What I can see now that I couldn't see then is that they always wanted a relationship with us, desperately. Even when they were pissed and slamming doors and talking smack about us.

They also wanted to be taken as equals, but they couldn't quite pull it off. We couldn't really tell them that because that's the thing they most despised, to be treated like children while working overtime to convince everyone they were better at being grown-ups than we were.

It's was like talking to someone with pie on their face pretending it's not there.

My oldest stepdaughter, the most adjusted of all our kids, did a swan dive into a temper tantrum like I've never seen before in a grown person. She yelled at H at the top of her lungs that he didn't treat her like an adult, but in that moment she was a tired 3 year old not getting her way. It went on for a good 20 minutes then she went to sleep just like you would expect in an exhausted toddler.

With S21, who is by far the smartest of our kids, I point out the pie. I'll take any advantage I can get. Most debates I lose, easily 9/10. His intelligence is unnerving and I am on banana peels a lot of the time.

We're all in different relationships with different personalities, but with him I have pointed out the pie and the banana peels. I used this metaphor, "Am I a more experienced driver?"

Yes.

I've said to him, You can read about driving, you can take driving classes, and watch youtube videos, but when you get onto the roads and drive, you're not as good as me. I have more experience. You're great at following the rules but I know how to drive even when other people aren't following rules. You've learned a lot but I know more. 

So let's try to meet somewhere in the middle. I have this experience, and you are learning something I don't know about.

These kids have been half-raised by the Internet in a way we can't fathom. Debate with us is like a stub on a Reddit thread and they're making sense of us through those lenses that we don't even see. We come across dumb, walking into traps we're too stupid to avoid.

I'm convinced that's why most of the world feels like middle school right now, because it was colonized primarily by kids who had nothing but time on their hands, fighting and trolling and over-sharing and misunderstanding and taking sides and cringing at humiliating videos, with no adults helping them make sense of humanity at its worst. Now it's crawled out of the internet and is here in our world and we're finding out how genuinely hard it was for them to navigate.

I am kind of getting to the end of my rope with anyone, kids or adults, who try to apply Internet rules to my conversation. When S21 tells me I'm saying something he doesn't like, I ask him, "Do you want me to learn, or do you want me to be quiet." I want him to know that he has a role in the conversation too. It's not just me saying something dumb and him pointing it out. Just because people stop talking doesn't mean he won their hearts and minds.

Something about the story with SD17 reminds me of SD telling me she was gay, then saying her dad was a bigot because he said he didn't grow up with gay people. Where is her responsibility for mis-characterizing her dad?

I feel like I've figured out how to validate feelings but I'm not great at the thing after that. Like helping them see they're being a dick. Sometimes it has to be ok (and there has to be a way) to point that out without escalating it into a full-blown beef.

[kells76]

Hi Notwendy & livednlearned,

I really appreciate both of your replies, and am planning to respond -- just waiting for a time when I feel less wound up and more ready to touch those feelings again. I was out of town for a week and now the kids are last-minute out of town, so it's an unexpectedly long break from stepparenting -- hoping that gives my nervous system a chance to come back down.

[Notwendy]

Enjoy your break!

I wonder also, if the teens are harder on you and DH because- they can be?

This doesn't negate the issues- but that perhaps the emotions are more released at your house than BPD mother's house?

I think we were pretty normal teens in terms of behavior- nothing major- but we were so afraid of BPD mother, even the smallest thing could be a cause for her to be upset with us. We all walked on eggshells at home.

We spent time with our father's family and it was at these times - we and our cousins could be silly, get into mischief- we didn't do anything really bad- just silly kid stuff- and the difference was- we didn't have that fear. There were rules, there was discipline- but not the BPD dynamics. I feel as if I experienced being a typical teen ager there. At home, we were parentified- enlisted in meeting BPD mother's needs. With my father's family, we could be kids.

My own teens got angry at me sometimes, sometimes I was in tears over that. Thankfully, they didn't do anything that was considered to be "bad behavior"- but the anger over some rules, or limits. We didn't do that with BPD mother. Yet it seemed she'd get angry at us over anything. I think my teens could express their feelings- because, they didn't have that fear. They had the security to be able to do that.

Something to consider- the teens act out with you not because you and DH did anything wrong but because, you and DH are doing parenting right.

[ForeverDad]

I wonder also, if the teens are harder on you and DH because- they can be?

This doesn't negate the issues- but that perhaps the emotions are more released at your house than BPD mother's house?

Something to consider- the teens act out with you not because you and DH did anything wrong but because, you and DH are doing parenting right.

That's a thought I've seen expressed before, that children are more likely to voice and let loose their feelings where they don't feel unsafe doing so.

[kells76]

Hey LnL;

Thank you, so much, for all of this:

Some of the same kinds of cool winds blow through our family dynamics, right down to H feeling like the punching bag for angry females from family of origin to his daughters.

Less so as the kids get older but we have definitely felt the chilliness when our words aren't correct and are interpreted to mean the worst thing ever.

But then our kids do things I find so unbelievably hypocritical. Do as I say not as I do applies just as much to righteous kids as it does to adults.

My guess is that even if you had the exact same views as your girls and did everything right, you would still eventually step in it.

We just kind of do our best and shrug when it's not enough.

Your views are known to be different and yet your family navigates this incredibly tricky path with hugs and a lot of checking in. Could it be that you're losing this battle while winning the war? Sorry to invoke adversarial metaphors but this is the land of PDs  .

I mean, everyone is checking in with everyone. You're noticing when people don't hug, but this is because y'all are hugging most of the time. You're having dinner with your parents and they're able to make light of heaviness and difference that probably seems alien after a lifetime of battling different kinds of headwinds. They are covered in life's scars and are able to weather SD17's preciousness without emotionally injuring anyone. It's very impressive!

I know it feels awful because it's complex and people's feelings are hurt all at the same time, each of you needing something from someone else who is in pain. It's so hard when the timing works like that, regardless of what the hurt might be.

The teen years were pretty horrible for H and I, with our kids doling out hurt pancakes in very different ways, like they figured let's check all the boxes on ways we can kick our parents down. What I can see now that I couldn't see then is that they always wanted a relationship with us, desperately. Even when they were pissed and slamming doors and talking smack about us.

They also wanted to be taken as equals, but they couldn't quite pull it off. We couldn't really tell them that because that's the thing they most despised, to be treated like children while working overtime to convince everyone they were better at being grown-ups than we were.

It's was like talking to someone with pie on their face pretending it's not there.

My oldest stepdaughter, the most adjusted of all our kids, did a swan dive into a temper tantrum like I've never seen before in a grown person. She yelled at H at the top of her lungs that he didn't treat her like an adult, but in that moment she was a tired 3 year old not getting her way. It went on for a good 20 minutes then she went to sleep just like you would expect in an exhausted toddler.

With S21, who is by far the smartest of our kids, I point out the pie. I'll take any advantage I can get. Most debates I lose, easily 9/10. His intelligence is unnerving and I am on banana peels a lot of the time.

We're all in different relationships with different personalities, but with him I have pointed out the pie and the banana peels. I used this metaphor, "Am I a more experienced driver?"

Yes.

I've said to him, You can read about driving, you can take driving classes, and watch youtube videos, but when you get onto the roads and drive, you're not as good as me. I have more experience. You're great at following the rules but I know how to drive even when other people aren't following rules. You've learned a lot but I know more. 

So let's try to meet somewhere in the middle. I have this experience, and you are learning something I don't know about.

These kids have been half-raised by the Internet in a way we can't fathom. Debate with us is like a stub on a Reddit thread and they're making sense of us through those lenses that we don't even see. We come across dumb, walking into traps we're too stupid to avoid.

I'm convinced that's why most of the world feels like middle school right now, because it was colonized primarily by kids who had nothing but time on their hands, fighting and trolling and over-sharing and misunderstanding and taking sides and cringing at humiliating videos, with no adults helping them make sense of humanity at its worst. Now it's crawled out of the internet and is here in our world and we're finding out how genuinely hard it was for them to navigate.

I am kind of getting to the end of my rope with anyone, kids or adults, who try to apply Internet rules to my conversation. When S21 tells me I'm saying something he doesn't like, I ask him, "Do you want me to learn, or do you want me to be quiet." I want him to know that he has a role in the conversation too. It's not just me saying something dumb and him pointing it out. Just because people stop talking doesn't mean he won their hearts and minds.

Something about the story with SD17 reminds me of SD telling me she was gay, then saying her dad was a bigot because he said he didn't grow up with gay people. Where is her responsibility for mis-characterizing her dad?

I feel like I've figured out how to validate feelings but I'm not great at the thing after that. Like helping them see they're being a dick. Sometimes it has to be ok (and there has to be a way) to point that out without escalating it into a full-blown beef.

I think one place I've landed after All Of That is similar to the approach you've tried above -- I can "assume the best" about SD17, that her goal was to effectively change my mind, and I could ask her -- do you think that was an effective approach?

I could even take it one step back and ask her -- so tell me about your goal in that conversation, was it to change my mind, to share your thoughts, something else?

I don't know if she's ready to hear that she acted hurtfully in that conversation. But she might be open to assessing her effectiveness.

I might try the "do you want me to learn, or do you want me to be quiet" move, too -- put some of that work back in her lap to think about, what is it that she really wants when she's unloading on me like that.

...

I also would give myself an A in the validation department and maybe a C- at the "so then what" step. I can understand how it'd be frustrating to want a parent or stepparent to really listen to you, hear what you're saying, and then change what they're doing... and they don't. Probably the issue is me hoping that I can, like you said, point out to SD17 that she's being hurtful, and then "it's all great" after that as she has profound paradigm shift about her behavior once I enlighten her. Instead, I'm uncomfortable with what would likely be her escalating after looking in that mirror I hold up -- and because I don't want to deal with that, I don't point out to her when she's hurtful.

I guess to be fair, I'm not in a good place right now. So on the one hand, it's true that I don't have much bandwidth for anything. I'm avoiding self care, struggling in both counseling and marriage counseling, and am pretty numb to feelings. My relationship with H is not in a great place, and I oscillate between self blame and anger towards him. I can kind of accept that I feel like I'm "just surviving" life and that turning to face the onslaught of what happens when I really push those relationships with SD15 & SD17 isn't something I think I can handle. My mindset is "survive stepparenting and maybe in a few years things will be better."

On the other hand, I feel guilt that the best I can do (or is it -- am I making excuses?) is marginal at best and pretty avoidant. I still "show up" when we're with the kids, it's not like I don't talk or listen, but I stick to validation and don't push anything. There are so many "doors" the kids show me (books they're reading, friends they hang out with, patches or buttons on their clothes) that I could open with a "so what does that mean to you, what do you think about that" question, but I am consciously avoiding those conversations, and I don't like how I feel about that. I see myself as failing them or as a failure myself to see those opportunities in front of me and to purposefully "not notice" or not engage on those topics.

I think SD17 notices when I veer away from difficult topics and I don't like what I'm showing her about myself.

Things have been mostly back to normal the last few weeks. It doesn't feel like SD17 is "holding a grudge" -- she talks to me about The Book she's reading (the one she brought to my parents' house), and I just validate, and she doesn't get weird, but it is hard to be in this place of second-guessing myself, like -- am I avoiding harder conversations with the kids because I'm a limited human being in a hard place, or because that's a great excuse I can tell myself for avoiding discomfort?

[livednlearned]

Am I avoiding harder conversations with the kids because I'm a limited human being in a hard place, or because that's a great excuse I can tell myself for avoiding discomfort?

Sometimes I tread water.

My son was in high school. We didn't know it at the time but he was severely anemic. Later he got a blood transfusion and after that more surgeries. I'm not sure how much this impacted what was happening but it certainly was a factor. He had no energy and was online a lot. Anyway, during that time he was starting to say hateful things about women.

I'm sensitive to this because the men in my family are misogynistic. n/BPDx was misogynistic. It's in n/BPDx's psyche eval that the evaluator found he was "incapable of acknowledging the inner life of significant women in his life." Right now my mom wants to drive and my dad won't let her because she scraped his car. It doesn't matter that he backed into a car and dented both bumpers because he's a man and his mistake can be explained by problems with the parking lot. Hers happened because she's a woman. When I try to make sense of my parents allowing my BPD brother to violently beat me throughout childhood and well into my 20s the only way I can explain it is misogyny.

I felt a bolt of dread when my son started to say hateful things about women.

I put everything on the line for that kid. It gutted me.

When I think about our conversations at that time, I was so totally at a loss.

My son is not a dominant male, though he's white and straight. He doesn't feel like he gets all the goodies you're supposed to get being white and straight and male. So he was pissed. He was pissed that he was expected to care about any race, gender, ethnicity, when he was clearly not "dominant." He found other people online who were also pissed and he got swept up in a whole boatload of hate.

Except he's not a hateful guy.

He went through a hateful period.

I was like, wtf. Where did my kid go?

In retrospect, he was an ugly teenager trying to figure out who he was. It was a white knuckle ride for me because if he figured out he was someone hateful it would devastate me.

We're on the other side of that now. I don't know what got us through. Some of it was values. We lived in a town with a lot of diversity and he had friends who came from Mexico, China, Korea. His best friend was Jewish. His best friend in middle school was Black. He had more female friends than male. I'm from another country. I'm an immigrant. He started to realize that some of what people were saying was problematic given his lived experience.

I don't know if he would've figured that out if I had pushed him.

Honestly, how I handled it was probably not good. I was kind of a wimp, trying to ask validating questions and suggest other ways of looking at things. I held my breath and tried to counter his comments when they were offensive to me. He's a phenomenally smart person and a skilled debater and I was always on my back heels.

I wanted him to like me.

Now he's a full-blown adult and we have a good relationship. He reflects on that time period and makes fun of me for how tepid I was in trying to counter his arguments. He is embarrassed about that period and he thinks he was duped by other people who were duped. He takes an interest in how information spreads and business models in ways that are pretty sophisticated.

I think that whole episode was formative for him. He's actually one of the more independent thinkers I know and I have to imagine it's in part because of that experience. I don't know if what I did helped or not or if everything was a fluke.

And I'm not sure how we got through it. One thing I think about is a conversation we had that felt ... true. He was saying things I found offensive and I said something to suggest he was free to follow his beliefs when he was 18 and an adult. Meaning, if this is how you think and feel, and it's hurtful to me, go figure it out by yourself with people you want to be like.

That was one of the rare times he didn't have anything to say.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you get to hold space for yourself.

If there is nothing to gain from talking ad nauseum about what you believe, you get to decide whether they're even capable of engaging in ways that are fruitful.

For me, numbing happens when I feel it's best for everyone if I stay hidden. It might be connected to perfectionism: If I don't have anxiety, if I don't have anger, if I don't have stress, if I don't talk about this or that, then everything will be ok for everyone, and then I'll be ok.

Your SD17 is precious. I mean that in the eye-rolling way. She's been parentified and people let her think she's very mature and knows what she's talking about but she's just another person trying to struggle to make sense of things that sometimes make no sense.

Teen agers are insufferable. Yours sounds haughty and self-righteous. She might be a great person and she may have different views but don't put yourself in front of the bus if it's costing you something in other areas.

I think people will respect you for holding space for yourself. They'll feel it happening and will be curious -- it's like catnip to a teen who feels scared because it's a rare thing.

 

[ForeverDad]

Tell your husband I said he needs to take you on a vacation, just the two of you.  Give yourselves both the chance and incentive to relax, rekindle and recharge yourselves.

It would be such a shame that you two faced down such difficult years - and now with the SDs nearly grown - only to have too little left of yourselves to enjoy the future.  Yes, you're battle weary, but don't lose sight of both your accomplishments and goals.

[kells76]

That's a thought I've seen expressed before, that children are more likely to voice and let loose their feelings where they don't feel unsafe doing so.

I go back and forth on that -- part of me agrees, and I can even see how SD17's supposed "winning" move of "Well there's just going to be all kinds of things I don't tell you" is (a) actually her telling me something, and (b) her able to finally articulate a boundary to a mom.

Part of me fears that the idea of "it's only because she actually feels safer with you" is just a nice story I tell myself that lets me congratulate myself without putting in more effort.

Intellectually I get that it can be true that she's saying this stuff to me because she feels safer pushing back on me, AND that I won't really know for sure for quite a while -- that it could take years to see any kind of affirmation that yeah, that was going on.

Day to day, I think I struggle with having hope, actually, because if I get my hopes up ("Oh yeah, it's because she has a healthier relationship with you"), and that isn't true... I think I am coping by "staying disappointed" and "talking myself down" (i.e., "it's just a nice-sounding coping story that she feels safer with you, that isn't true") so that it won't hurt so much if/when the rug gets pulled out from under us again.

Tell your husband I said he needs to take you on a vacation, just the two of you.  Give yourselves both the chance and incentive to relax, rekindle and recharge yourselves.

It would be such a shame that you two faced down such difficult years - and now with the SDs nearly grown - only to have too little left of yourselves to enjoy the future.  Yes, you're battle weary, but don't lose sight of both your accomplishments and goals.

Yeah, we do need a vacation. I'm having a hard time being around people at all.

Thank you  you've seen so many years of what we're going through.

[Notwendy]

I will echo Forever Dad to take some time for you and for you and your H.

I think you have done a great job with the kids and also- there's only so much you can do. Their BPD mother and step father will have input as well. If the goal is for them to not be affected by their BPD mother, honestly, I think that's an impossible task. You have given them a foundation- the rest- that is going to be their personal work to do. This is not a "one and done" task for them but something they may decide to seek out help with at different stages. This is their own emotional growth and they are responsible for that.

This may be a strange idea- but a counselor mentioned the idea of "choosing the opposite" of dysfunction is still dysfunction to me once. When I see all you have done for your family, you do seem like the opposite of my BPD mother. Is it possible that your H left his BPD wife and then chose you because, you do so much- he saw what he didn't want and it makes sense that he'd want someone competent and giving. These are good traits to have but were his expectations realistic? If he was concerned that BPD mother would mess up the girls, were you expected to fix this- to be the mother they don't have?

What you are doing and have been doing is an enormous gift to the girls. I mentioned that my father's family stepped in to take on some of this role for us, and it is a gift to us, but it also doesn't completely change that we have a mother with BPD. Our own journey- with counseling, our own relationships- that is our task. We have to do our own work.

With all the good things about being "the opposite" of BPD mother, where's the dysfunction? It's in over functioning and expectations. I also tried to be the "opposite" of BPD mother because I knew that I didn't want to behave like her. But the opposite was not realistic either. We can do our best, but we are human too. You can do your best to be the great step mother you are, but this is their mother. For me, family has an essential supportive role that I appreciate. It has made all the difference for me, but my mother has BPD and as an adult, how I relate to her is my task.

Take some time for you and for your marriage. You are doing an amazing job. However the girls manage- you can know you've made things better for them and you will keep doing that, but their relationship with their mother is theirs to navigate too.

[GaGrl]

My step-kids were well into their 20s when I came into the picture.  Even then, it was exhausting to work through the dysfunction in which they had grown up. None of them have healthy relationships. It is painful to watch.

I second or third the recommendation for a getaway. I think your perspective is limited at the moment. There is a world out there to enjoy.

[kells76]

Some of this is teen age behavior and also some is reflection of our current times. Even though there have always been political and religious differences between people, I don't recall this level of critical and even sometimes disrespectful behavior between people who don't agree. I think social medial has influenced this. It's easier to be disrespectful when not speaking face to face.

I think the media has influenced this too. It seems every TV show, movie, has some level of disrespectful language, far too much sex and violence for my own preferences, and more opinion than news- from both sides of the political fence IMHO.

I know we avoid politics here and don't wish to instigate any disagreement. I have family and still have friends (I hope) from both ends of the political fence although I think this circle has gotten smaller as people are pulled to one side or the other. I do try to listen to each perspective as much as possible. I have my own thoughts about it too  but don't take sides in discussions- because it doesn't usually lead to anything good.

There are some influences of all of this on the younger generation. My MIL is very religious, her grandkids not all of them are as much in adherence to her religion as she is. I overheard a grandchild ( not my kids, they'd have been taken to task for that) telling grandma that her religion is fake. It's something similar to your SD 17 bringing that book to her grandparents'. Disrespectful, and also attention seeking and actually not necessary. Why not let grandma believe what she believes and other people can believe something else? Grandma didn't force anyone else to be religious or tell them they were wrong to not believe like her. Kudos to your parents for not reacting. I think that was handled well. Grandma didn't react either and just loves all the grandkids.  This is teen age acting out. I think this demonstrates maturity and tolerance.

The current ideas about pronouns are new. None of us grew up with this. It feels odd to us to not use the language terms we are used to- regardless of what side we take on this. It's not easy to change our language terms, even if we want to. I know from listening though that if someone doesn't use the preferred pronouns, or uses a former name, it's considered to be disrespectful to that person. Your SD17 is repeating what she has heard to be true in her world and also from her mother and SD. I also understand your perspective - to validate what is true for you and not validate what isn't.

IMHO, we are now so divided on this issue, I don't believe there's a way to come to any mutual understanding of what is a complex situation in our current divisions. Your SD 17 is adhering to what she's been told. She's not mature enough to think otherwise- yet.

I also think there's a bit of "poisoning the well" from mother and step dad in their attempts to be the cool parents and frame you and DH as the old fuddy duddies but you two are the parents here too. Your job isn't to mold yourself to what SD 17 thinks you should be. Your job is to be the boundaries and the example. I actually think it's a good thing that my own kids have to figure out how to get along with the various political views of the different family members. They will have their own views. I still think the most important thing you are doing is showing them unconditional love and consistent parenting and what your values are, even of the kids reject them now. By not reacting or not changing, you are demonstrating tolerance which is- we don't agree but we can still love each other.

And I'm not sure how we got through it. One thing I think about is a conversation we had that felt ... true. He was saying things I found offensive and I said something to suggest he was free to follow his beliefs when he was 18 and an adult. Meaning, if this is how you think and feel, and it's hurtful to me, go figure it out by yourself with people you want to be like.

That was one of the rare times he didn't have anything to say.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you get to hold space for yourself.

...

I think people will respect you for holding space for yourself. They'll feel it happening and will be curious -- it's like catnip to a teen who feels scared because it's a rare thing.

I think I have a fear related to both your ideas, and it's that -- as long as the kids are minors, DH and I have no backstop. There's no support from Mom's house for the idea of "well even if you disagree with Dad, that doesn't mean you can just leave and come back here during Dad's time".

I'm ready to play the card of "when you're 18, let me know how it goes to avoid people like me" or whatever... when they're 18. But the kids are 17 & 15 -- and I struggle with feeling like if I push things too hard now, there's nothing stopping them from saying "I'll only spend time with you if you use the right pronouns", and we aren't in a situation to say "well, Mom and I are on the same page that that's not a valid reason, so you can sure try heading back to Mom's, and she'll drive you back here".

I have a belief that the situation is still fragile and that there's no net under our tightrope. At 15 & 17 there isn't really legal support for making sure the PP is followed, and like I said, there's no support from Mom's. I'm not even sure if there's anyone left in the kids' lives who would genuinely say, like Notwendy suggested, "you and Dad and kells76 don't agree but you can still love each other".

So I feel like we're still in this precarious position of -- no real legal support, no cultural support, no social support, and no Mom's house support, for us not even to argue with the kids "we're right and you're wrong about this content", but just to live out our values.

There's the precariousness of actively positing "I think ABC is actually more loving than XYZ", but we're at the point, it seems, where just not talking about ABC isn't enough, it's that I decline to say anything about XYZ, and it's like it's not allowed anymore to be neutral on XYZ.

IDK. Like I said, things have kind of settled down over the last few weeks, but we're with the kids again this weekend, and if I think about it a lot I get really anxious. I'm coping with a pervasive feeling in most areas of life that "at any moment it can all change" -- that there's no real place or time I can relax, because reliably there will be an unpredictable something/someone "bursting in" when I feel vulnerable.

I'm not sure of a way forward for the next 2.5 years that involves me being open and vulnerable. I'm pretty closed off right now -- pretty numb -- and it's difficult to conceptualize of making it through any other way.

Again, it's not like it's a surprise that there's no PP support from Mom's house -- it's always been that way.

It's that (to use another image) we've jumped off of one side of the canyon -- where there were still a few other people speaking wisdom into the kids' lives, where age/timing-wise legal intervention could've done something -- and we might make it to the other side where the kids are 18, but we're midair between sides right now, and there's nothing below us.

...

And DH and I are thinking of taking a ~1 week trip in March, so that's on the table.

[Notwendy]

Kells, I think what you are dealing with is no sense of order or structure when it comes to values on the part of BPD ex's side, in combination with what seems like a changing political climate. If someone doesn't have a solid sense of self, and they look to politics for that, they will be also constantly changing their views to fit that.

An aspect of my family life was absence of order. The focus was on BPD mother's feelings and these were constantly in flux and she embraced the political movements of the time but without the supporting actions. For example, she said she was part of the women's movement but didn't seek out work outside the home or other things that this represented.

Personally, I don't think what is seen in the news is representative of many people on the political spectrum. The news likes extremes. But if someone doesn't know who they are, they are going to adopt what they see and hear as the "cool" thing to be but without substance. It seems that BPD ex and family are doing this. You, being somewhere on the spectrum on the other political side are then painted by them as all the extremes attributed to your side, whether or not they represent you.

I still believe you don't have to change who you are, even if it isn't supported by BPD mother's family. By maintaining your values and not bending to please them, you are showing boundaries. If you are being authentic to who you are, you will role model that regardless of what is trendy or not. You have an order to your family life that may be lacking in theirs.  It may feel like a losing battle but even if it is, you won't lose yourself in it. Keep your rules and values as they are. If the girls don't like it, then that's also rules and boundaries.

[livednlearned]

I struggle with feeling like if I push things too hard now, there's nothing stopping them from saying "I'll only spend time with you if you use the right pronouns"

Is this something you and H are discussing with each other?

If you take away the topic and the kids' age, this sounds like bullying: "I'll only spend time with you if you xyz."

How would you guide someone to come up with a better way to handle this?

Our situations are often 100x more complex in real life and I know we only get a snapshot of what it's like when we share here, not to mention it's harder when our own emotions are at stake, so I apologize if this observation seems to oversimplify what's happening: It seems like the kids are:

Bio mom, NPD step-dad: same cultural values, not emotionally attuned
kells76, dad: different cultural values, emotionally attuned

To be blunt, for the kids it's a bit of a wash. This is how things are with H and his kids. Even SD26 with all her issues seems to swing back and forth, like, constantly. Then one of them has a crisis and H is back as good guy.

I feel like we're still in this precarious position of -- no real legal support, no cultural support, no social support, and no Mom's house support, for us not even to argue with the kids "we're right and you're wrong about this content", but just to live out our values.

Skip from these boards used to write, "Do you want to be right or do you want to get along." With the tightrope, canyon, backdrop analogies it seems you are backed in a corner where you have no choice but to get along. Every interaction with the kids will feel like a compromise and you can't be authentic with them, and there's a price for that, especially if the kids are condemning you even if you're simply living your values.

it's like it's not allowed anymore to be neutral on XYZ.

Do you mean that SD17 chastised you for using "they/them" pronouns instead of "he/him" for SD15? Or that you are trying to refer to SD15 without using any pronouns?

I'm not sure of a way forward for the next 2.5 years that involves me being open and vulnerable. I'm pretty closed off right now -- pretty numb -- and it's difficult to conceptualize of making it through any other way.

When my step kids were no longer under 18, it sort of ended up in a similar place to where you are with yours now, as minors. Do you have a sense what turning 18 will mean in terms of how the kids spend their time with your home/their home/bio mom's home? Does H have a sense of what that might look like (or hope it looks like)?

It's that (to use another image) we've jumped off of one side of the canyon -- where there were still a few other people speaking wisdom into the kids' lives, where age/timing-wise legal intervention could've done something -- and we might make it to the other side where the kids are 18, but we're midair between sides right now, and there's nothing below us.

I'm wondering if you are referring to puberty blockers/hormones? Or?

[Notwendy]

I think our political climate has come to the point where it is dividing families and friends.

Media, especially social media, is contributing as well. Kids are immersed in these messages. But if we are to make informed decisions about anything- there has to be critical thinking involved. It seems that you and your H are interested in understanding the kids' point of views, and want to share your own, and then having them dismissed by their mother who is not meeting you half way - and isn't going to.