No way they are that oblivious to social norms...

[Riv3rW0lf]

So... I was just thinking back on my wedding day. And I know a lot of you shared the same experience where your BPD mother found some ways to either : (1) made it about themselves; (2) guiltrip you throughout the day; (3) refused to recognize this was a very special day for you (!); or (4) found ways to hurt you.

On mine, I recall it was expected that I prepare with my BPD mother, in her room... for which she decided to take the two queen beds to save a few bucks (duh! Should have seen that one coming and prepare for it but nope, I still had hope back then that my mother was normal (she does have money, she is just cheap as  ). It was very crowded and uncomfortable. My brother was there though (thank goodness), to  get some food for me, and to tell my mother to ease out when she started telling me how the arrangement for the hotel rooms was bad, yada yada yada...

So, she had promised her sister-in-law that she would help her prepare... Like... my BPD mother needed help to prepare herself from my aunt, she has NO idea how to dress herself, we ALWAYS do her hair and make-up for her... but somehow she could help her SIL on that day? Well, of course, it stand to reason, right? ... not.  

So there were... My brother + his girlfriend, my mother + her boyfriend, my aunt (not necessary) + her daughter (who was there to help me with make-up, so her presence was welcome!) and my uncle (not so much welcomed), and now my mother's sister-in-law + her boyfriend? All that in a small hotel room with 2 queen beds, while I, the bride, was just trying to relax and get into my dress, and get some time to ease out... And she was guiltripping me because I dared ask her what the hell she was thinking telling her SIL that she would help her get ready on my wedding day, just before the wedding pictures and all. I was a VERY BAD PERSON, so much so that SIL herself was completely dumbfounded and asked her "Why did you invite me here on her wedding day if you were going to help HER prepare? IT's HER DAY !"

Like. In the grand scheme of my wedding day, this was just a small annoyance, really, mixed with all the others, like telling me how my father wasn't dressed well enough (he was well dressed), and just... just making it more difficult by looking at me with big eyes whenever I wasn't quick enough to thank someone or, I don't even know what was going on ! She was just looking at me having fun like I wasn't supposed to. It was just, just small, very stupid things that my lovely husband, bless his humor, took care of. He would just sweep me away to celebrate our love and really saved my sanity and my memories of that day. I don't have resentment partly because he really did save my day  .

But I keep on thinking, and I'm not even mad, it's more that, it struck me : there is NO WAY she is this oblivious to how things should have gone and how she should have acted. I make excuse for her, ho it's her illness, she just doesn't know how, she would like to if she could, it's not really her.

But no, let's be real here: there is no way they can be THIS OBLIVIOUS to social norms.

And here's the thing : she masters those social norms when it is someone else's wedding day, just not when it is her daughter's wedding day. And sure, we can say it's the BPD all we want; the closer you are the more they hurt you... I mean, sure, but we've all seen them be perfectly normal and showing empathy and being able to relate to so many people... Just not us. Just not when it's us. Because we take the load of everything they hate about themselves.

At this point, I am not even mad, it's almost funny. And I had a GREAT wedding ! With a LOT of fun. Because I CHOSE to focus and remember what was truly good about it. Thank goodness we have powers over our own memories.

Feel free to rant with me. Because this was, indeed, a rant. Hopefully a relatively funny and light one !

 

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
So sad your mother made your wedding day about herself and so inspiring that you choose a great husband who made sure you did enjoy your wedding.
I often think about this topic, how disordered people are able to follow social norms with people they are not close to, while having no compassion for the people they have the closest biological and/or couple relationships with. I think biological and romantic bonds can when there is extreme dysfuntion involved somehow create one sided relationships with close family members and partners/spouses. I have often thought of how I will always be sad about being abused by my disordered family members while at the same time I am fully over any dysfunctional relationships I have had with past friends or boyfriends, though it was much harder to get over past boyfriends than friends. It is like that there is a chemical bond in our brain that says we cannot end relationships with people we are biologcially related to or people we could have or have children with. Maybe with couple relationships, we can usually get over the relationship completely if there are no children involved or when the children are/become adults. Our biological mother will always be the only mother we will have.What do you think?

[NarcsEverywhere]

Hey Riv3rw0lf, cool that your husband was sweet to you like that. Pretty ridiculous that she ordered that tiny room for all those people. I know my neighbor went to her daughters wedding, and got in a fight with her boyfriend, to the point where he left and then she played the victim about him having her keys, I’m sure it was intentional. Glad I didn’t bite when she wanted me to ask her to be my gf.

Anyways, I think they get their inner strength from punishing, controlling and being the center of attention. My Dad doesn’t seem to like my success for sure, that intense jealousy is pretty toxic. To answer your question they might know, but I also think they feel so entitled because of the jealousy. And too worked up to care, and too much of a victim to feel anything different. Glad your day was okay!

[GaGrl]

I'm identifying with the wedding craziness, because I'm at a big family wedding this weekend, and the bride's family is pretty dysfunctional. I'm watching what is going on, and I'm so sad for the bride -- she was reared by grandparents and an uncle, but her bio mother is moving into the spotlight as best she can.

My young cousin is the groom, and I'm hoping he has the level of resilience needed to back her up.

[Mommydoc]

Riv3rWOlf, I love that you have such great memories of a special day despite how your mother showed up. Weddings end up amplifying lots of things and with the many family dynamics in play the dysfunctional ones are bound to be amplified too!

My sister with BPD was my maid of honor.   At the time, I had no awareness of BPD, but I remember being very hurt/confused by her actions. Now I realize, everything is about them.  So when we are getting married it is also all about them.  Everything makes sense with that lens.  So happy that your memories like mine are primarily happy!  

[Notwendy]

My wedding was my mother's wedding. No, I wasn't born yet when she got married, but pretty much, I showed up at my mother's wedding to get married.

I had learned already to not ask for anything with my mother. I already had school loans. But when it comes to what she wants. there's no limit it seems. So she planned the wedding. It was lovely. I had no real say in it. I told her I didn't want a large wedding. She invited all her friends and family saying "don't worry they won't all come".

The night before the wedding, one of her cousins, who I had not seen since I was a child calls and says "I'm here". I asked my mother why did she come and her reply was with a chuckle "they are all here".

About 100 people were there. Between my H and myself there must have been about 10 of our friends and maybe 10 from his family's side? And the rest, were all my mother's family and friends and one person from my father's side of the family.

As to helping the bride get ready- BPD mother wasn't even there. She was off getting herself ready. A cousin helped me with my dress. Then my Dad helped with some of it.

The wedding was very nice. But somehow, I didn't want to look at my wedding pictures and I don't like to look at them. It's not due to resentment but a lack of attachment. The wedding was nicer than anything I would have asked for. But- it's the way things were in the family- the purpose of the wedding was to make BPD mother happy and Dad paid for it to make her happy.

[Riv3rW0lf]

It is like that there is a chemical bond in our brain that says we cannot end relationships with people we are biologically related to or people we could have or have children with. Maybe with couple relationships, we can usually get over the relationship completely if there are no children involved or when the children are/become adults. Our biological mother will always be the only mother we will have. What do you think?

Well Zachira, I've thought about this long and hard; this is a recurrent conundrum I face.  Yes, my mother will always be my mother. I am 50% her. And I will always carry parts of her in me... The way I move when I garden, I know it's her, I can feel her in me, if that make sense... The way I laugh at times... The desserts I bake, the food I cook; it often reminds me of her. And so, not thinking at all about her, and cutting those invisible ties is impossible. That is quite clear.

I've worked a lot to accept those parts, to stop hating myself when I see her in me. I've worked to accept and also love those parts, to be grateful for the very small things she did do right. And this is when I hurt the most, and this is where I don't go often, and don't want to think about often. When I open that door, hope comes back, that the hate and the rage she released on me, time and time again, was just a dream, that it wasn't this bad, how could a mother truly hate her own daughter? This is the argument I keep having with myself, until I come back to : it's not that she hates me, it's that her love is toxic. She does love me, and her love is ultimately what hurt me so bad.

Yesterday, I saw she had changed on profile picture on Facebook and of course, I clicked on it. She looks older. She looks sad. H thinks it is just another ploy, another manipulation, she shows what she wants to show... He has a point. Does she even look sad though? I don't even know anymore... She always looked off. Looking at her, it just triggers my guilt. It is a very hard mental gymnastic to walk this no-contact situation without feeling like a complete monster, which is why I have to use anger so much...

When I focus on pain, on sadness, there's longing and hope. And I cannot have hope.

When I focus on anger, there's protection and action. I can work with that.

Over time, actions morph into construction, and then gratefulness when I look at what I built... The more I build (including loving relationships with my children, my father), the more I heal. The more I know : they don't know me. I am not what my mother and brother say I am. I am not a monster.

Each and every single thread of thoughts I have, have to be properly managed, else I doubt my decision, I doubt myself, I start feeling like I am bad...

I don't hate her. And I will always think of her at some moments. I come back to the pain, I come back to the anger. I allow myself time to process those. And I shift my focus upfront, on things I can build and change.

H said something that helped me heal yesterday when I told him I had looked at my mother picture, how I had felt. And he said : "Riverworlf, of course you would feel this way, you are not a monster, of course it hurts you to hurt her." That's all I needed to hear. I take no pleasure in the hurt I am unleashing on her in my no contact, and I am not emotionless. But I do walk a very thin line, and I cannot allow myself to contact this pain, this sadness, too often. If that makes sense...

[Riv3rW0lf]

I'm identifying with the wedding craziness, because I'm at a big family wedding this weekend, and the bride's family is pretty dysfunctional. I'm watching what is going on, and I'm so sad for the bride -- she was reared by grandparents and an uncle, but her bio mother is moving into the spotlight as best she can.

My young cousin is the groom, and I'm hoping he has the level of resilience needed to back her up.

Ho goodness, keep us posted how it went !

[Riv3rW0lf]

Riv3rWOlf, I love that you have such great memories of a special day despite how your mother showed up. Weddings end up amplifying lots of things and with the many family dynamics in play the dysfunctional ones are bound to be amplified too!

My sister with BPD was my maid of honor.   At the time, I had no awareness of BPD, but I remember being very hurt/confused by her actions. Now I realize, everything is about them.  So when we are getting married it is also all about them.  Everything makes sense with that lens.  So happy that your memories like mine are primarily happy!  

Thank you Mommydoc, always a pleasure to read your posts on here. Thinking on you on this coming mother's day. I read your other post and I hope the FT goes well with your mother and sister. Enjoy this special day with your mother. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

My wedding was my mother's wedding. No, I wasn't born yet when she got married, but pretty much, I showed up at my mother's wedding to get married.

This is sad, but also made me chuckles because of how ridiculous our mothers are ! My mother also tried to hijack my wedding, but couldn't completely because I planned it all from scratch. I was living 10 hours away then so she couldn't help me with it. But like you, she made sure I had invited every single members of my family except those she didn't like, and also all my step-father's family, even those I didn't know. It was FILLED with people I didn't really care about, her people. But then... it was all just background noise anyway and it made it funnier, in a way, because it was a big party  with plenty of wine and good music we had designed, H and I, together. It made for a very alive dance floor !

You said you didn't want to look at your wedding pictures... Are you, now?

[PinkPanther]

The birth of my children is where my mom hijacked everything BUT ... my wedding was... Interesting.

This was many years ago before I even knew about BPD, but I was pretty annoyed with my parents AND future in laws. I wanted a small wedding but my in laws come from a culture where small weddings aren't a thing. I allowed them alot of room to do certain things they wanted as long as they paid for it.
As for my BPD mom, she wasn't diagnosed at the time. She was so irritating while I was planning so I told her not to come if she couldnt be mature. The day of my wedding she was surprisingly ok. My maid of honor paid her alot of attention and kept her busy so I guess that is what helped. My mother in law though . I wonder if she was PD... After the wedding was over and before pictures she shook my hand to congratulate me. That cut me to the core, even all these years later.

Now, in the weeks following the wedding my mom didn't call me but I didn't care . It was quiet and I was happy.

Social norms... I believe they can be on good behavior when they want. They def. can control it despite what science says.

[Riv3rW0lf]

After the wedding was over and before pictures she shook my hand to congratulate me. That cut me to the core, even all these years later.

May I ask why? Was it because of the colder nature of a handshake?

[Notwendy]

You said you didn't want to look at your wedding pictures... Are you, now?

I don’t mind looking at them now but I don’t feel a sense of connection with them. I didn’t have much of an idea about how I’d have done the wedding differently - it’s was very nice - it’s just that it was what BPD mother wanted and I guess I was so used to just going along with that.

[PinkPanther]

May I ask why? Was it because of the colder nature of a handshake?

Yes I felt like a handshake is not very warm for a celebration such as a wedding. I wasn't buying a house, I was marrying their son. Any other time, we would hug.

[livednlearned]

@Riv3rW0lf, I find some pwBPD can take it one step further and use social norms to get needs met.

My BPD step daughter is not a sophisticated person, however she instinctively knows how to exploit social norms so she can get something for herself.

If she notices a social norm is guiding or curbing someone's behavior, she seems to see an opportunity. Sometimes it's to get a scrap of attention for herself, and other times it's to inflict harm, especially if she's struggling to control someone's behavior or hurt them for something she perceives they did to hurt her.

H and I were at his brother's house a few years ago, and SD26 was there with her siblings. Over the years SD26 was spending more time with her uncle and aunt, who are lovely people. My therapist referred to certain aspects of SD26's behaviors as "resource guarding," which is what some dogs do when they fear losing a favorite toy, favorite person, food or turf. SD26 does this with me around her dad and anyone else in the immediate family.

I had only met BIL and SIL a handful of times but a family tragedy occurred and they appreciated something I did, and at this gathering SD26 seemed a bit panicked to discover there was a closeness, or hint of intimacy between me and SIL.

SIL had taken me aside to say something and SD26 made a beeline for SIL and wrapped her arms around her.

I think this is one of the ways SD26 exploits social norms, or adjusts her own behavior in order to express what is considered an unacceptable emotion. Social norms dictate you do not growl at step mothers when they approach a favorite person  . But if SD26 becomes a needy waif and hugs SIL, that can pass as normal.

SIL hugged SD26 and then asked her to round people up for a family photo, a nice way to say "Give us a minute." Except SD26 didn't leave. To me it seemed she was running through socially acceptable ways to have me pitched over a wall. Instead she looked at me and said, "Are you going to join us in the family photo?" She had once texted me to say that I was technically part of the family (a dig).

SIL said, "Oh SD26 honey, this is just our immediate family -- we do this on my birthday every year."

I sometimes wonder if I'm imagining these things, but I have a BPD sibling who works this way. There was always a subtext in social situations. I don't feel it with anyone else in the family except SD26. She works a lot in the shadows.

When SIL corrected SD26 about the family photo, her face tightened and a bit of her mask slipped. She wasn't outwardly rude but if you pay attention to body language and shifts in energy, she was definitely angry when she walked away. My hunch was that she was going to stir up a crisis and text H that people were being mean to her. Later, I found him on the porch comforting SD26. In the car on the way home he told me that SD26 is sensitive, and sometimes misperceives what people say and do. It's so odd to me because I see the exact opposite. SD26 seems to be very astute about how to get her needs met. If those methods aren't successful, she adjusts until she's gets what she's going for or becomes the center of attention, whichever one is more important to her in that moment.

[Riv3rW0lf]

SIL said, "Oh SD26 honey, this is just our immediate family -- we do this on my birthday every year."

So, just to make sure I am getting this story right, was she being excluded from the photo?

They certainly have their ways to pressure those that are willing to be pressured, often by playing on their "hero cord"

And yes, I also believe they make norms work for them, and when they "fail to meet it", it's under the guise of "kindness to someone else", so when we are on the receiving end of the exclusion, of the meanness... well, it becomes a lose-lose. There is more than what they let us see. The closer we look, the more we know, the more we see... Small smirk, panicky eyes, uncomfortable stare like we are on the verge of learning something we shouldn't hear...

[zachira]

Dysfunctional families are all about perserving family secrets and long term patterns of interaction that hide the secrets.

[livednlearned]

So, just to make sure I am getting this story right, was she being excluded from the photo?

Yes. The family photo was for SIL/BIL and their 3 kids. An annual thing since both parents have birthdays a few days apart.

SD26 thought family photo meant everyone but me. Then it turned out it meant not her.

I don't think she was upset to be excluded from the family photo. I think she was more upset that she didn't score a point against me. Her intent was to make me feel like the outsider. Hard to do when you're not on the inside yourself 

I'm not a mean person so there's no chance I would get beef going. Sometimes I feel like being nice is the ultimate social norm that pwBPD exploit. SD26's BPD mom considers nice people to be stupid and easy to manipulate, so I expect SD26 thinks something similar.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Yes. The family photo was for SIL/BIL and their 3 kids. An annual thing since both parents have birthdays a few days apart.

SD26 thought family photo meant everyone but me. Then it turned out it meant not her.

I don't think she was upset to be excluded from the family photo. I think she was more upset that she didn't score a point against me. Her intent was to make me feel like the outsider. Hard to do when you're not on the inside yourself  

I'm not a mean person so there's no chance I would get beef going. Sometimes I feel like being nice is the ultimate social norm that pwBPD exploit. SD26's BPD mom considers nice people to be stupid and easy to manipulate, so I expect SD26 thinks something similar.

I love that it ricocheted on her without you having to do anything !

Also, I completely agree with them ultimately exploiting the social norm of being nice. I am actually working on being less nice with people that aren't nice to me. Not that I want to be rude or mean, but at least, I am becoming more and more politely assertive on being respected. Not asking to loved anymore, nor even liked, but respected.

[livednlearned]

I am actually working on being less nice with people that aren't nice to me. Not that I want to be rude or mean, but at least, I am becoming more and more politely assertive on being respected. Not asking to loved anymore, nor even liked, but respected.

I'm trying to do that too. Is there anything specific you find helpful in becoming more politely assertive?

Were you able to be politely assertive with your mother?

[Riv3rW0lf]

I'm trying to do that too. Is there anything specific you find helpful in becoming more politely assertive?

Were you able to be politely assertive with your mother?

Truth be told, for me, martial arts ended up being the panacea. I've started learning BJJ, then switched over to judo (the school was better), and it's like I have discovered myself and can finally feel secure and at ease in the world, which in turn helped me be more assertive. I actually occupy the space I am in now, I occupy my body, and I can tell my whole stance itself has changed, if that makes sense.

As for my mother... Well... It depends when? If I look back at the last time we were together, I was assertive on certain things, but I still felt deeply scared. I was in contact with her for two weeks continuously, and I slowly reverted back to a child like feeling, I was completely scared, helpless, confused, lonely and hurt. It was hard to make sense of what was happening... I wasn't myself at all anymore. I shared this with my father and he came to pick me up and brought us (my children and me) to my husband... My father drove six hours to get me to my husband. My husband drove four hours to do the exchange. I didn't even ask my father... he knew exactly what was happening, and just offered. He knows how my mother can be and offered... It wasn't a good house to be in with both my children (3yo and 1yo at the time).

I never said good bye to my mother. I just left. I knew it was wrong, but I swear I just... I had never felt this scared of someone. I was so, so scared of her and I tried to master my courage to have this talk, but my whole body just wanted to run away. My rational brain simply never stood a change against this kind of primal need to survive, to leave, and so I did... Just left a note and I haven't seen her since then.

I've thought a lot about who I was with her, the kind of person I was when she was in my life... And truth be told, I don't like who I am in her presence. When I am not scared, I am defensive and I will actually stab her with my words... I could be her hero, but I was always mostly her persecutor in the drama triangle. So not the polite assertive person I actually tried to be... I'd be the bad version of it... It wasn't assertiveness, it was aggression. An eye for an eye. Hit before being hurt kinda thing.

I've been away for almost two years now... Very low contact at first but not on good terms, and no contact for a year. I've changed a lot... And it's like I cannot bring myself to go back there... I truly hate what I was when she was in my life. She took so much space, and I constantly felt like a bad person. And to a certain extent, I was. Being triggered doesn't get the best out of me, and I need to be my best self for my children.

Anyway, to be honest, my mother doesn't forgive. It's like... I crossed a line of no return.

Can you? Be politely assertive with your mother?

[PinkPanther]

Truth be told, for me, martial arts ended up being the panacea. I've started learning BJJ, then switched over to judo (the school was better), and it's like I have discovered myself and can finally feel secure and at ease in the world, which in turn helped me be more assertive. I actually occupy the space I am in now, I occupy my body, and I can tell my whole stance itself has changed, if that makes sense.

As for my mother... Well... It depends when? If I look back at the last time we were together, I was assertive on certain things, but I still felt deeply scared. I was in contact with her for two weeks continuously, and I slowly reverted back to a child like feeling, I was completely scared, helpless, confused, lonely and hurt. It was hard to make sense of what was happening... I wasn't myself at all anymore. I shared this with my father and he came to pick me up and brought us (my children and me) to my husband... My father drove six hours to get me to my husband. My husband drove four hours to do the exchange. I didn't even ask my father... he knew exactly what was happening, and just offered. He knows how my mother can be and offered... It wasn't a good house to be in with both my children (3yo and 1yo at the time).

I never said good bye to my mother. I just left. I knew it was wrong, but I swear I just... I had never felt this scared of someone. I was so, so scared of her and I tried to master my courage to have this talk, but my whole body just wanted to run away. My rational brain simply never stood a change against this kind of primal need to survive, to leave, and so I did... Just left a note and I haven't seen her since then.

I've thought a lot about who I was with her, the kind of person I was when she was in my life... And truth be told, I don't like who I am in her presence. When I am not scared, I am defensive and I will actually stab her with my words... I could be her hero, but I was always mostly her persecutor in the drama triangle. So not the polite assertive person I actually tried to be... I'd be the bad version of it... It wasn't assertiveness, it was aggression. An eye for an eye. Hit before being hurt kinda thing.

I've been away for almost two years now... Very low contact at first but not on good terms, and no contact for a year. I've changed a lot... And it's like I cannot bring myself to go back there... I truly hate what I was when she was in my life. She took so much space, and I constantly felt like a bad person. And to a certain extent, I was. Being triggered doesn't get the best out of me, and I need to be my best self for my children.

Anyway, to be honest, my mother doesn't forgive. It's like... I crossed a line of no return.

Can you? Be politely assertive with your mother?

It's not wrong to take care of yourself.
We are far too patient with our parents. The reversal of roles can be overwhelming. At some point, something has to give. Protecting yourself is a gift, and we really don't owe people explanations esp. when they are habitually abusive. 

[Riv3rW0lf]

It's not wrong to take care of yourself.
We are far too patient with our parents. The reversal of roles can be overwhelming. At some point, something has to give. Protecting yourself is a gift, and we really don't owe people explanations esp. when they are habitually abusive.  

Thank you PinkPanther, for the validation and kindness.

Those are very complicated relationships, and they are very hard to grasp for people that don't have BPD mothers ! It's feels nice to read those validating words.

No one understood. My brothers are still appalled I did that to OUR MOTHER, who does that to THEIR MOTHER ?   I did ! Just didn't see any other paths.

They are so far gone down into the triangle... Stepping out of the whole thing really opened my eyes to what they also are... My husband had huge problems with both of them that I didn't understand. Now I do. He never liked how they'd talk to me, how they behaved... And I get it now... I still wonder how I got out of this mess without more psychological damages, to be honest. Maybe I am a weirdo and just don't know too ! So far so good though, maybe a bit of a hermit... But slowly working through social anxiety via judo, it has been amazingly helpful.

One of my brothers "succeded" but... It's like he built some kind of cult? It's really weird ! He is a life coach and he gives life coach formation, and he has people living on his land, working for him, and he calls it the community. And he threw people out of the house they rented him because they weren't "communal enough". He is very into money, anything to make more and keep it, get free things out of people... I am now honestly glad he cut me off actually.  I am now convinced he actually developed another kind of PD, the communal narcissist. The hero standing above a community... It's a strange vibe.