Part 2: I am NEVER right ...I am ALWAYS wrong

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Mod note: This thread is a continuation of a previous discussion found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=355693.0

My hypothesis about the helpfulness of the counseling is that seeing the counselor required her to talk through her feelings with a neutral third party, and in explaining things to the counselor, she was forced to see that her emotional extremes were not proportional with her actual experiences that she cites as the reasons for her self-loathing and blaming me for all her problems.  

I resonate with that! I see that her emotional extremes are way over the top in the majority of situations. Is ridiculous road rage a symptom of bpd as well?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

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How long do these broken record/relitigating the past episodes typically last? 5 minutes? 5 hours? Other?

What do you typically say/do during these episodes?

What typically happens to end an episode?

Length of time the episodes last varies depending on a few factors. If it has been awhile between episodes, usually these last days and spill into phone and text conversations as well.

If we have an event such as a holiday coming up, the episodes can start that day and will usually end after the event. Usually

In between there are microbursts that usually can be dissipated with affirmation and distraction.


What I say and what I've read I should say ...probably 2 different things.

The reoccurring issue is an affair that my wife had with her boss. She will not bring that up but my reaction to that she brings up. I try to take the blame for my part.

Main point of contention for my wife is that in a drunken stupor, 1 year after the affair and enduring rejection with no one to talk to, I blurted out in front of her family and friends details about her affair. Mind you they all knew, she had them as a support group, I wasn't allowed to talk to anyone, but the things I said were extra and humiliating. I immediately regretted what I did the next day when the fog cleared. I asked for forgiveness and said I was sorry but it stuck to her. Subsequently soon after that her best friends dumped her. I have been blamed for that. As well as not protecting her, and just being a husband who punishes her.

I say I'm sorry to these things, I reassure that I would handle things way different in the future, I try to acknowledge her feelings while suppressing my hurt from the affair. If I bring that up the fight will go for days.

[kells76]

Length of time the episodes last varies depending on a few factors. If it has been awhile between episodes, usually these last days and spill into phone and text conversations as well.

If we have an event such as a holiday coming up, the episodes can start that day and will usually end after the event. Usually

In between there are microbursts that usually can be dissipated with affirmation and distraction.


What I say and what I've read I should say ...probably 2 different things.

OK, good info. And one more question I forgot --

how long have these episodes gone on for? I.e., they've been happening the last 2 years? 10 years? other?

[Link]

Intensified in the past 4 years.

[kells76]

So one way success could look would be:

I would think that if the constant broken record would stop playing. The past continually being trotted out. That would be a start.

and the way the "broken record" has showed up before has been:

days-long episodes that are verbal and text, sometimes precipitated by a non-routine day (like a holiday), that have happened pretty regularly for the last four years.

The "microburst" episodes you've been able to cope with through affirmation/redirection, and that sounds like that's "as good as it'll get" there.

It's the long episodes that remain the challenge, and if those could change, that might feel like success.

I'm reading you describe phone and text conversations -- so a back and forth, with your participation?

That part sounds like it's under your control. Her feelings, her participation, her ranting... not under your control. Your involvement in listening to her rants over the phone or text -- that is under your control.

It kind of sounds like over the past four years, if you sticking around to hear her rants, if you staying on the phone or in the text conversation, actually made things better, then things would've gotten better. You've tried participating, and it hasn't been effective.

What would it be like if you found a way to step out of those endless rants, pretty soon? To decline to participate, and to let her learn to self-soothe?

[Link]

I can respond to that with a fresh perspective.

Yesterday morning, I woke up and rubbed my wife's back, showing affection...which is basically the only affection I've been allowed for the past year, and went out to make us coffee. I brewed my cup first and proceeded to brew hers. At that moment my wife came out and complained that I didn't make hers first. I said I'm making it right now and I won't be drinking mine until hers is made. That wasn't good enough, hers needs made first. Kinda irritated me but I stayed quiet. Not to mention the fact that I make her coffee every morning and bring it into her before I go to work. What the heck is wrong with me...

Next, I was told I didn't water the plants on the deck and I said I watered all of them the night before. I said I watered all of them because I forgot there were new plants on the deck. These things were adding up to a bad morning, I could feel it. She was not doing well mentally and things could easily go way south. I spent the next hour or two kissing her butt, trying to reassure her that I was not in a bad mood and that I was looking forward to the day with her. ect ect. Things calmed down.

Fast forward to the afternoon. She told me to call my dad because I hadn't called him last week and ask him about his pressure washer. He was on speaker phone so my wife could hear the conversation and be involved if she wanted. When it ended she proceeded to state how much she doesn't like my father. Which segwayed into how much she doesn't like my brother. Which she then proceeded to chastise me for spending the night at his house last summer and that I always bad mouth her. I don't praise her to people.

Truth is, I have no friends. I have only my dad and my brother left in my family. She does not like either one. I don't bad mouth her to people. I went to my brothers to get away from her constant abuse. I was loosing my mind. I made the mistake of telling her that I told my brother that we have had a bad marriage since her affair. I wasn't suppose to say that. Now I've been attacked for it ever since.

So here is the scenario. She told me I need to never bad mouth her again, that I should never leave and go to my brothers. I needed to admit to her that I was wrong for doing it and never do it again.

Was I wrong? Can a person be shoved, spit on, yelled at, slapped across the face, called every name imaginable, denied sex for a year, can't go to the store, can't watch tv, can't live! and be ok? Do people actually need other people? Am I doomed to this and death.

I tried to be calm, I tried to say I understand how you feel. I tried to deflect the conversation. She persisted. Say it! You were wrong!

I told her, there was a reason I went there and you know it. I could not endure another day of her abuse. Woops! wrong move. We fault the rest of the night. I couldn't get away from her. I couldn't disengage. She followed me everywhere. I couldn't go to the bedroom, she followed and blocked the door. It was hell. I hate my life.

This morning I'm being blown up with sarcastic comments about what an awesome husband I am full of emojis. It's a fake... It's maddening.

[Link]

I kinda just went off on my experience last night but ultimately I'm looking for some help here. What do I do differently? How can I not take all of the blame and end up not fighting? After 26 years of this it seems so hopeless. I feel like I've lost myself and there is no way to regain anything. I'm just trying to make it to the next day without a fight. I validate her feelings, I try to calm things, it's so hard! After hours upon hours of the same thing ...over and over again. To me it seems like I'm ignoring reality just to validate her. If I don't we fight.

[kells76]

I feel for you after reading what happened yesterday... That sounds exhausting. Anyone would be worn down after experiencing those kinds of conflict day after day.

It's good that you're trying to approach this by asking "what can I do differently?" (what's under your control) and also by recognizing that taking all the blame isn't really going to solve anything long-term.

Yesterday morning, I woke up and rubbed my wife's back, showing affection...which is basically the only affection I've been allowed for the past year, and went out to make us coffee. I brewed my cup first and proceeded to brew hers. At that moment my wife came out and complained that I didn't make hers first. I said I'm making it right now and I won't be drinking mine until hers is made. That wasn't good enough, hers needs made first. Kinda irritated me but I stayed quiet. Not to mention the fact that I make her coffee every morning and bring it into her before I go to work. What the heck is wrong with me...

Next, I was told I didn't water the plants on the deck and I said I watered all of them the night before. I said I watered all of them because I forgot there were new plants on the deck. These things were adding up to a bad morning, I could feel it. She was not doing well mentally and things could easily go way south. I spent the next hour or two kissing her butt, trying to reassure her that I was not in a bad mood and that I was looking forward to the day with her. ect ect. Things calmed down.

I'm curious if you'd say that your W has a sore spot around "being explained to"? I.e., it seems like explaining where you're coming from doesn't typically make things better?

If that's true, the question for us is -- when she presents you with one of those "You didn't do XYZ" statements, how do we try something different, besides "clarification" or "explanation", to head it off at the pass? Not saying that it's a magic wand to manage her moods, just putting out there -- if explaining hasn't really helped turn down the temperature in the past, maybe trying a different approach could help you manage your "contribution to the heat" on your end.

It's so non-intuitive, because when a "generally normal" person says "you didn't do XYZ", you can typically explain "oh, you might have missed it, but actually I did", and that solves the conflict. But a pwBPD may experience that as "you're a stupid worthless idiot" and so then they try to regain some sense of value through extreme pushing for being prioritized.

Thoughts on trying something besides explaining/clarifying?

[Link]

I do like that advice.

So my wife comes at me with you didn't water the flowers on the deck. My response could be, you're right I did forget those. I am sorry for that.

My wife says you didn't make my coffee first. My response could be, you're right, I'm being selfish to make mine first and it should always be ladies first. I'll keep that in mind.

Easier said than done at 7:00 am and tired as well as never getting my needs meet while always meeting hers. But we are talking about a mental disorder and maybe these extra steps can lead to something good.

Big question though. What do I do about the brother issue. She wants me to admit I'm wrong for escaping her rage. Also wrong for even talking to him about our marriage. How do I calm that? I have no clue.

[kells76]

Finding some nuance here:

I do like that advice.

So my wife comes at me with you didn't water the flowers on the deck. My response could be, you're right I did forget those. I am sorry for that.

My wife says you didn't make my coffee first. My response could be, you're right, I'm being selfish to make mine first and it should always be ladies first. I'll keep that in mind.

Easier said than done at 7:00 am and tired as well as never getting my needs meet while always meeting hers. But we are talking about a mental disorder and maybe these extra steps can lead to something good.

Big question though. What do I do about the brother issue. She wants me to admit I'm wrong for escaping her rage. Also wrong for even talking to him about our marriage. How do I calm that? I have no clue.

Not sure that I'd personally recommend the "white lie" approach (i.e. saying "yes, you're right, I did forget" when actually you didn't) -- from my eyes, that looks like more appeasement, where sure, it's not explaining, yet it's still letting her disorder set the terms.

I also want to say that you know your W best, better than anyone here, and you have your own values and priorities to live out -- no matter what anyone else thinks or believes or suggests, you're the one who has the best feel for the dynamics and has to live with your own choices. So take any suggestions/perspective that works and leave what doesn't -- no pressure.

Sort of a similar perspective with the "you're right, I'm being selfish" answer -- to me, that tips towards appeasement, where you're agreeing with her that you had intentions that actually you didn't have.

Maybe we can thread the needle on those types of situations, though, where moving away from "explaining/clarifying" doesn't dump you back in the ditch of "everything you feel is correct".

I like where you're going with finding a validation target -- you're thinking of different answers that provide you with a "yes" answer to her complaints.

So let's make sure that defanging her complaint doesn't mean you lose your self in saying "you're right in defining my inner intentions"!

Your idea:

So my wife comes at me with you didn't water the flowers on the deck. My response could be, you're right I did forget those. I am sorry for that.

Another option for a response: "You're right, even though I got them last night, I didn't get them this morning". Maybe I'm undermining my own "don't clarify" mantra -- I'm right there with you, it's difficult! I think the core is -- can you find something valid to validate, without validating what's invalid? Yeah, she is right that you didn't water... this morning. How do you think she would respond to that "sandwich" of "you're right" plus brief info plus more "you are right about X"?

My wife says you didn't make my coffee first. My response could be, you're right, I'm being selfish to make mine first and it should always be ladies first. I'll keep that in mind.

Alternative approaches:

"Babe, you are 110% correct." Benefits: brief, no argument, can potentially ju-jitsu her with some surprise that you're not fighting. Possible downside -- does it open a door for her to hammer on about it?

"You know me -- I make the worst coffee first and the best coffee last! You're worth it!" Benefits -- again, no argument, and sometimes humor can defang the "gunning for conflict" vibes. Plus, what's she going to do then, argue that she wants the bad coffee?

How do you think she would respond to occasional "agreeing humor"?

Easier said than done at 7:00 am and tired as well as never getting my needs meet while always meeting hers. But we are talking about a mental disorder and maybe these extra steps can lead to something good.

Validating the valid, not validating the invalid, and BIFF responses aren't intuitive. I think I've mentioned somewhere here that it took me a few years to figure out how to navigate (and help my H navigate) the relentless blame and manipulation coming from my H's kids' mom in her emails. Effective communication/coping skills for dealing with a pwBPD are not something we are taught and there is a learning curve. Maybe think of it like piloting an airplane -- nobody is born knowing how to do it, and if you're suddenly plopped in that seat with few lessons, you're going to be stressed out. It's not going to be muscle memory, it's going to be really difficult and take effort. However, think of airplane pilots with hundreds of flight hours under their belts. At that point, you can go on autopilot (sorry no pun intended) at 7am with little sleep and let the training, practice, and muscle memory take over.

It's been that way for me with my H's kids' mom -- really difficult at first, and now it's more like "well, that's annoying that she's still interacting like that, and I have tools A B C D E F and G to defang her manipulation". There is hope to build those muscles and please know that yes, it will be challenging at first, and it can get better... with no agreement or cooperation on her end required. I can promise you that no amount of "please don't do XYZ" from us to the kids' mom helped or had any impact. The only things that worked were approaches that were under our control.

Big question though. What do I do about the brother issue. She wants me to admit I'm wrong for escaping her rage. Also wrong for even talking to him about our marriage. How do I calm that? I have no clue.

What would happen if you were firm on this? I mean, I'm thinking -- sure, you could "perfectly admit" to her that you were wrong, and in that one moment, maybe she'd be happy. But you don't control her inner feelings. What if in a week or two her feelings come up again? Does that mean that you didn't "admit it" well enough? Or maybe... no amount of "perfect admission" will ever be what controls her feelings. I suspect it'd be opening a door to reinforcing to her that you must not have "really meant it" the 1000 previous times that you admitted you were wrong... otherwise, why would she still be feeling XYZ? And that's not under your control.

So, escaping that dynamic will be healthier -- for her, for you, for your marriage.

Couple of ideas:

Some members are able to make a firm "one and done" statement... as long as they decide ahead of time that they can and will hold that personal boundary. It could look like: "Babe, me spending time with my family is appropriate and non-negotiable. That's all I have to say about that." And then you'd have to be ready, every time it comes up (could be an extinction burst), to refer back to that statement: "Babe, I have nothing more to add to this issue" or "I have nothing else to say on this topic, and that's final". It can work, though it's not for everyone.

Another idea would be: "Honey, I recognize that this is very important to you. In order for me to truly hear you, I am able to discuss this with a counselor present." and then work to set up an appointment.

A third approach is similar: "Honey, that sounds really important to you... I want to be at my best to listen to all your thoughts about it, how about tomorrow over lunch?" Some members have had success with that, because the approach recognizes that many pwBPD "burn themselves out" and self soothe over an issue, given enough time. This leaves the door open for her to raise the issue tomorrow if she still really wants to, but leaves the ball in her court -- it's her job to care enough about it to bring it up tomorrow. It is also a "ju-jitsu" move in that you aren't arguing with her ("No I'm not wrong" "Yes you are wrong"), and you're finding a validation target (her feelings).

I suspect that very little of her eruptions have to do with the content of what's going on, so that's maybe part of why "explaining"/"clarifying" aren't effective -- it really isn't the coffee or the flowers or the brother bothering her, it's her feelings of shame, worthlessness, etc, so if you can avoid the red herrings of content, and try to validate some general stuff, that could be worth a try.

I know it's a lot -- I'll pause there for now.

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Thank you Kells76. Digesting

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I find that the hardest thing in basically care giving to your partner with BPD is to stay consistent. One day I will be able to not engage in her fight, stay calm, see her through her tantrum with validation and understanding and calmness, and the next, I just am not up for the struggle. I am so tired of a whole weekend being ruined by her rage. I just am so beaten down and tired.

[kells76]

Welcome back; good to hear from you again.

I find that the hardest thing in basically care giving to your partner with BPD is to stay consistent. One day I will be able to not engage in her fight, stay calm, see her through her tantrum with validation and understanding and calmness, and the next, I just am not up for the struggle. I am so tired of a whole weekend being ruined by her rage. I just am so beaten down and tired.

Something that struck me today, while reading through posts here on Bettering, is kind of an expansion of the idea that a relationship with a pwBPD is a "special needs relationship" (in that it doesn't operate like a "generally normal" relationship).

Maybe there's a perception that "married/committed people spend a lot of time together", or "married/committed people live in the same house", etc.

Spending lots of time together and/or living in the same house can work for generally normal relationships.

I wonder if it's time to think outside the box for BPD relationships?

The longer the chunk of time you spend with your W, the higher the odds that during that chunk of time, she'll lose it/dysregulate/etc, right?

Neither of you are at your best when that happens. She's off the rails, you're beyond exhausted, it isn't positive.

Maybe an alternative approach could be spending amounts of time with her where when it ends, you're both "winning" -- like a "quit while you're ahead" approach.

I think in a normal relationship, two people could start the weekend together, spend all weekend more or less together, and end it pretty positively, with normal range ups and downs in there. That's >48 hours!

I suspect your W can't handle that long together without struggling?

What if you had some things in your life that you could leave the house to go and do, to break up longer stretches of time with her, so that the times you do spend together are "winning" or "quitting while you're ahead" for both of you?

There's no way you can help her or help the relationship when you're so exhausted. I feel you; even though the pwBPD in my life isn't a spouse (it's my H's kids' mom [uBPD] and her H [uNPD]), they still exhaust me from afar and indirectly via the kids   Just wondering if we can get you to a place where you have shorter, less negative chunks of time with your W, punctuated by time alone for you to recharge.

You can't save her from drowning if you're treading water 24/7. You have to get some time to rest so that when you guys are together, you have more resources. This might mean your relationship looks really different from a generally normal marriage. Other spouses may spend long weekends together, for example, and it works. Because your W has "special needs" you guys may not be able to do that, or not right now.

I also get that any change in the dynamics will probably be met with resistance and blame, so it's a live question if you are up for facing that. Some extinction bursts don't last that long, but what you can field right now is important. And like you said, consistency is key, so it'd be you thinking through: OK, I'm at the end of my rope now, but I think I can be firm and consistent about how I'm heading to ceramics class every Saturday from 12-4 -- or, Yeah, I'm at the end of my rope now, so I recognize that I don't have the resources yet to be firm and consistent about getting time for myself.

It's just food for thought -- again, you know you and your W best, so I'd be interested to hear your take on whether smaller chunks of time together could help.

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I am amazed by the help you are offering kells76 and everyone else who has commented. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. My experience in life is that for the most part I am on my own. My faith is what keeps me grounded, but I don't have people. Thank you again.

Less time together at this point is nearly impossible. I've modified everything about my life to accommodate her. I text her every hour, I call her on the way to work, at lunch, on the way home. I try to do whatever I can to leave work at the same time every day. I spend every hour away from work with her. I go nowhere, I do nothing without her. If I stray from that, all hell breaks loose.

I understand how stupid this is. I've given up everything for peace and I have no REAL peace. Thing is, there is some quiet in between the explosions. I am holding on to this lifestyle to have that slice of quiet. I feel that if I rock the boat we will mentally and physically destroy one another. I add myself in there because I am not a monk. I can't stay calm and cool when the roof is falling on my head. Sometimes I can, other times I've just had enough. We are all here on a BPD forum. We are all aware of the rage that we have to endure. It is beyond evil, I use that term intentionally. It is like being in the room with Satan himself. It is insanity to put up with it. But I do put up because I love her. I think about what good we have had and what we have created and built together. I think of my kids. I hate the cycle.

My wife had episodes 2 weeks in a row. They correlated with Fathers day and my sons birthday. She deregulates when holidays are here. It was interesting to watch her mood switch from ...I hate you and everything about you...to sorry, I love you right after all of her preparations for the occasions were at an end. Stress, adds to the split.

If I were to limit my time with her, the split is inevitable. If I keep things the same, I have periods of quiet. It is idiotic to live for the morsal but I am not up for the fight. I hate it.

[Smedley Butler]

My experience in life is that for the most part I am on my own. My faith is what keeps me grounded, but I don't have people.

friends keep me sane.  not sure what your lifestyle / friend situation is like, but man, you gotta have a circle of friends or at least A friend.  you mention your faith, is there a men's group at your church you could get linked up with? 

for me the hardest part even WITH a good group of friends, is that no one REALLY gets what it's like being married to a borderline wife.  a lot of my venting, i'm sure, comes off as just that - typical dude venting about his crazy wife, "sure buddy we all have crazy wives - got it." and i want to scream NOT LIKE THIS YOU DONT. 

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"sure buddy we all have crazy wives - got it." and i want to scream NOT LIKE THIS YOU DONT. 

LOL... yes!

My wife has systematically removed every friend I have had. I am left with my brother who she is in the process of removing as well. It's insane..I know.

I don't go to church because my wife says she is not ready to go back to church. I don't go to church on my own because I would be accused of picking up women there. I do not exercise fellowship in my faith.

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Another Holiday weekend ruined...sucks.

I was really hoping for a nice, relaxing, stress free 5 days off of work. Instead, I got a daughter in crisis with her live in boyfriend and a wife going off the deep end. Any sort of perceived parallel in bad relational situations always makes it around to our marriage. If my daughter has a problem with her guy, my wife will relate it to me. And then I proceed to listen to yelling and blaming for days. It's a wonderful existence.

When is enough is enough? How much torture does one have to endure? Am I stuck in hell for life? She doesn't work, we live paycheck to paycheck. I can't go anywhere, I can't do anything. I feel like my health is failing. My stress is off the charts. I hate talking her off a cliff every week. I hate being blamed for her mood, her choices, everything! I hate being denied a life. I hate being denied sex for over a year. I am at my wits end. I hate my life.

I need to rant...I have no-one else to rant to.

[OnPinsAndNeedles]

It's been my experience, with two different BPD family members, that making time for yourself, where you actually leave the home without them, triggers their fear of abandonment and their paranoia that you may be talking about them.  I think deep down they know they have an issue, and they don't want anyone to point out their shortcomings to you.  Therefore, they try to remove every friend and family member from your life who is important to you.  

Both of my BPD family members always dysregulate during holidays and other celebrations.  Lots of raging and throwing things.  Sure makes the holidays miserable for everyone.  Could be that these events trigger childhood trauma, or they could be just another instance where they want your focus to be 100% on them, because they don't want to share you for fear of losing you.  

[Collaguazo]

Another Holiday weekend ruined...sucks.

I was really hoping for a nice, relaxing, stress free 5 days off of work. Instead, I got a daughter in crisis with her live in boyfriend and a wife going off the deep end. Any sort of perceived parallel in bad relational situations always makes it around to our marriage. If my daughter has a problem with her guy, my wife will relate it to me. And then I proceed to listen to yelling and blaming for days. It's a wonderful existence.

When is enough is enough? How much torture does one have to endure? Am I stuck in hell for life? She doesn't work, we live paycheck to paycheck. I can't go anywhere, I can't do anything. I feel like my health is failing. My stress is off the charts. I hate talking her off a cliff every week. I hate being blamed for her mood, her choices, everything! I hate being denied a life. I hate being denied sex for over a year. I am at my wits end. I hate my life.

I need to rant...I have no-one else to rant to.

Hi link,

I have been reading your posts and your experience has many similarities with mine. I can’t even imagine how hard it has been for you to endure it for so long, I only was with my partner for a year and broke up 3 weeks ago.

I totally relate with the jealousy and control. Same experience at work. If I didn’t answer a phone call or text right away it was because I was flirting with the girls at the office.

Going out? Just look down and hope she doesn’t imagine I was checking out a girl. Why did you look at her? Was she your ex? Why are you so nervous? You must be hiding something, you never tell me anything! I am sure you are texting with another girl but don’t worry I will do the same!

Oh you are going for lunch just with your cousin? You think I am stupid? You are going because you want to meet his (insert derogatory term) female friends.

I remember one time we were with her mom and sister and they were gossiping about a tv presenter who apparently has been with a lot of guys. I casually mentioned: “oh really, I had not idea”. Later that day she confronted me and said: Why were you defending her? Did you also have sex with her?

I couldn’t help but burst out in laughter. Oh boy I have never seen her so angry and nasty. She said the most vile and hateful things I have heard in my life.

The weekends were also hell. I never understood what got her so upset but it was a constant fight and later complaining that we are a boring couple that doesn’t get out of the house…

I really hope things get better for you and find some peace. I still recovering and some days is just break down remember all the abuse I received and how she insulted my family and friends (Never directly, the few times we were together with them, she would act as the perfect girl)

Worse part is that I still love her and miss her everyday. I have even seriously considered getting back with her, hoping that this time things will be better…

[Link]

I totally relate with the jealousy and control. Same experience at work. If I didn’t answer a phone call or text right away it was because I was flirting with the girls at the office.

It does help to converse with someone who has had the same experiences. Sometimes you feel like you are going insane and then some understanding from the outside helps to bring you back to reality.

I have been conditioned to the point of texting my wife every hour while I'm at work. I don't even have to look at my watch to know it's time to text. If I text every hour, I've had times where my wife says I am just a robot and I don't put any feeling behind texting. That I do it because I'm expected to. If I don't text, I am accused of doing something wrong. Talking to women, whatever. It's a no win situation.

My wife rages at times over text while I'm at work. Quite alot actually. I have to take my watch off because it keeps buzzing, shut down haptic on my phone, flip the phone so the screen isn't showing, and try to get through it. It's horrible.

Going out? Just look down and hope she doesn’t imagine I was checking out a girl. Why did you look at her? Was she your ex? Why are you so nervous? You must be hiding something, you never tell me anything! I am sure you are texting with another girl but don’t worry I will do the same!

Totally relate! Going out is an exercise of how long can you stare at the ground without running into something. The new thing she does is "don't look at her, she's pretty. You'd enjoy the view" . I have to look her in the eyes and reassure her I don't look at other women and she is the most beautiful woman in the world. Sometimes it works. But usually, this instance is just a stepping stone to the full blown rage that is coming.

Oh you are going for lunch just with your cousin? You think I am stupid? You are going because you want to meet his (insert derogatory term) female friends.

I used to go places until she would say I took to long at Kroger's or wherever and accused me of checking out women. I just couldn't take it anymore and said I'm done picking up things. You do it! Subsequently, I don't leave other than going to work.

I remember one time we were with her mom and sister and they were gossiping about a tv presenter who apparently has been with a lot of guys. I casually mentioned: “oh really, I had not idea”. Later that day she confronted me and said: Why were you defending her? Did you also have sex with her?

I have learned to keep my mouth shut when anyone talks about tv personalities. When we first started dating I made a mention of how hot Jennifer Anniston was in passing to my brother and I have yet to stop hearing about it. My wife would ask me if I thought some woman was pretty on tv and I would say something like, "well she's not ugly." That's It! I fantasize about that woman! Blah...blah...blah. So now I just say, no she isn't pretty, you are the prettiest woman in the world.

The weekends were also hell. I never understood what got her so upset but it was a constant fight and later complaining that we are a boring couple that doesn’t get out of the house…

Totally relate

Worse part is that I still love her and miss her everyday. I have even seriously considered getting back with her, hoping that this time things will be better…

Don't even consider it! Things will not get better. The relationship will wear you down and eventually kill you. Don't do it!

Thanks for the rant. It' really helps!

[Cat Familiar]

This is a long relationship and the point where you are now didn’t happen overnight—it took a long time for her controlling and manipulation tactics to become normalized.

I’d venture a guess that if she had behaved this way at the outset of your relationship, that you’d never would have had a second date.

How to change your part of the dynamic? That’s your only power. She is who she is and you cannot change her. I’m sure you’re quite aware of this.

You’ve gotten to this point by limping along and appeasing and placating her, no matter how unkind, disrespectful or abusive she is.

She has amped up the attacks on you over the years simply because she can. She knows you are safe and that she can get away with whatever unkindness she wishes to inflict upon you.

You’ve been complicit in this by tolerating her abuse and in the process she has lost respect for you.

Should you at some point choose to reclaim your autonomy, your personal space, your time—all hell will break loose as her well-used manipulative techniques will no longer work and she will amplify them to an unknown degree.

If you ever decide to do this—you will have to remain steadfast and have an escape plan so as not to endure the blowback.

This is a major decision, not one to be made lightly, but it is one where you can reclaim yourself. Yet you will have to be consistent evermore, and never once back down.

After so many years of engaging in the dynamic you and she participate in, it will also be very difficult for you, probably as difficult for her to relate to a *different you*.

Having been married to two partners with BPD, I’ve had to do this, not once, but twice. The first time was dangerous, as my former husband was violent. The second time was much easier since my current husband is far more functional and closer to being an emotionally healthy individual. Still it was challenging to break old patterns.

I would recommend the book, Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203887.0

[Link]

This is a long relationship and the point where you are now didn’t happen overnight—it took a long time for her controlling and manipulation tactics to become normalized.

I agree. I saw the over the top jealousy in the beginning, not too far in but thought that maybe that would work its way out. (foolish) I pushed back in the beginning. As time went by I would start to clam up and do what ever to avoid conflict in this area.

I’d venture a guess that if she had behaved this way at the outset of your relationship, that you’d never would have had a second date.

To the extent it is now, no, I would have ran.

How to change your part of the dynamic? That’s your only power. She is who she is and you cannot change her. I’m sure you’re quite aware of this.

agreed

You’ve gotten to this point by limping along and appeasing and placating her, no matter how unkind, disrespectful or abusive she is.

agreed

She has amped up the attacks on you over the years simply because she can. She knows you are safe and that she can get away with whatever unkindness she wishes to inflict upon you.

I'm not sure here. Is it a knowing act to inflict unkindness or a behavior that just happens. Last night I had to call in a payment and after I was done she said "That was a woman you were talking to. You used your friendly voice. She must have sounded really nice." Definite hidden meaning behind those comments. These comments are made because why? Insecurities? She couldn't help herself? She wants to start conflict?

 

You’ve been complicit in this by tolerating her abuse and in the process she has lost respect for you.

Not sure. I've fought against her abuse for 26 years. I've been trying to figure out the best way to deal with it. Yelling, walking out, running away, ignoring, reasoning, ...whatever. Nothing works. If you would ask her she lost respect for me because I wanted her to go to work back in 2008, at her brothers place of employment that she didn't want to go to, and subsequently she had an affair with her boss. He made work easy for her there which made him the knight in shining armor. When she wouldn't break it off, I... along with her brother made her quit. I also had the blurting out of her transgressions to her family. These things, she would say, are the reason of the lack of respect.

Should you at some point choose to reclaim your autonomy, your personal space, your time—all hell will break loose as her well-used manipulative techniques will no longer work and she will amplify them to an unknown degree.

agreed

If you ever decide to do this—you will have to remain steadfast and have an escape plan so as not to endure the blowback.

I'd have to be ready for divorce. I don't see any other option.

[Link]

I really do need some practical help here. Please, if anyone can help me I'd be so grateful.

My wife is continuing to attack my brother and me for escaping to his house for a night last summer. I did so because I could not mentally and physically deal with my wife's constant attacks. I was at my wits end.

She wants me to admit that it was wrong to go to his house. That I shouldn't have spent the night and my brother was wrong for not telling me to go home. I also, when pressed, told her that I told my brother I was there because we continue to fight over her affair. This is the truth, every fight we have can be traced back to it. She said I just humiliated her by talking to him about her affair. He already knows! She told him 14 years ago!

How do I do this (admit that I was wrong) and be truthful? I agree that going there did not help anything between me and my wife, but I needed to do it at the time for myself. She does not listen when I say there was a reason I went. It was in direct relation to the abuse I was receiving. Of course this doesn't work but its the truth. How do I speak the truth and still validate her?

[Pook075]

I really do need some practical help here. Please, if anyone can help me I'd be so grateful.

My wife is continuing to attack my brother and me for escaping to his house for a night last summer. I did so because I could not mentally and physically deal with my wife's constant attacks. I was at my wits end.

She wants me to admit that it was wrong to go to his house. That I shouldn't have spent the night and my brother was wrong for not telling me to go home. I also, when pressed, told her that I told my brother I was there because we continue to fight over her affair. This is the truth, every fight we have can be traced back to it. She said I just humiliated her by talking to him about her affair. He already knows! She told him 14 years ago!

How do I do this (admit that I was wrong) and be truthful? I agree that going there did not help anything between me and my wife, but I needed to do it at the time for myself. She does not listen when I say there was a reason I went. It was in direct relation to the abuse I was receiving. Of course this doesn't work but its the truth. How do I speak the truth and still validate her?

Does it help to say that your wife is dead-wrong for treating you that way?  I think you already know that.  She's accused you so many times that you're accepting her viewpoint, which only focuses on her interests in the moment and completely ignores your feelings.  Even worse, you're not even considering how this makes you feel- it's all about her and her disordered, selfish point of view.

I mean, just take a step back for a second.  Your wife had an affair, you visited your brother, and YOU are the one in the wrong because you mentioned what your wife did to hurt you?  There's not a single person on the planet that would agree with that statement.

My friend, wake up and stop defending yourself over things your wife did to hurt your relationship.  Stop accepting bad behavior and normalizing it by not calling it what it is...disordered thinking.

[Collaguazo]

I'm not sure here. Is it a knowing act to inflict unkindness or a behavior that just happens. Last night I had to call in a payment and after I was done she said "That was a woman you were talking to. You used your friendly voice. She must have sounded really nice." Definite hidden meaning behind those comments. These comments are made because why? Insecurities? She couldn't help herself? She wants to start conflict?

This is a good point. After we broke up, my ex sent me an email apologizing for all the horrible things she said during her rage episodes. She said she was overloaded emotionally and that it’s not her true nature to be aggressive. I am inclined to think that it is a behavior (the anger) that just happens but they can be extremely cruel, so I don’t know.

I suffer from depression and I remember one episode where she attacked me until I just couldn’t take it anymore and began crying inconsolably. This was over the phone. You know what she said? I am fed up of your depression why don’t you kill yourself?

Was that said with malice or her brain just went into panic mode, bypassed all filters and said it without thinking?

[Link]

Does it help to say that your wife is dead-wrong for treating you that way?

Of course not. She has BPD. She is incapable (it seems) to sympathize with my feelings that have been hurt or continue to be hurt, or to agree that the way she sees things is wrong. It is all about what she feels, her insecurities, her struggles, everyone has hurt her, no-one cares about her, her...her...her...ect.

She came to me and said her boss was falling in love with her probably one month after she started there. My thought was, oh he finds you attractive tell him to get lost. I could not connect, at the time that it was a mutual thing happening or deeper than just a physical attraction until she told me about a couple weeks later that she loves him and doesn't know how she feels about me. To this day, I am blamed for the affair, to a certain point, because I wanted her to get a job there and I didn't act upon the initial warning about her boss. I was unsympathetic about how difficult the job was for her. I only saw our desperate need to save our house. Is this rational? I can see where I should have been on guard. I should have acted differently when it came to our finances back then, as well as more sympathetic to her needs. These are things that she continues to hammer on. It never goes away. I am looked at as the same man who hurt her and has not changed at all. All she sees is past hurts. The hurts are inflated too because she has BPD. Would these trivial things that she blows up into big things actually effect someone who is emotionally stable? I don't think so.

By the way I loved reading your post. I agreed with all of it. I had some "Yeah! your right" moments. Doesn't matter though. How does that help in my marriage?

[feelingf@!ked]

Oh my friend...You have been abused.  To say it's not her fault is naive.  She is not nice and you are reduced to believing you are not worthy of love or respect. She may have BPD but what you are describing is much more than BPD. You have no boundaries and now she "owns" you because you have let her in order to find "peace". This is not peace.  Seek therapy alone.  You need to rebuild yourself. Lots of love

[kells76]

I really do need some practical help here. Please, if anyone can help me I'd be so grateful.

My wife is continuing to attack my brother and me for escaping to his house for a night last summer. I did so because I could not mentally and physically deal with my wife's constant attacks. I was at my wits end.

She wants me to admit that it was wrong to go to his house. That I shouldn't have spent the night and my brother was wrong for not telling me to go home. I also, when pressed, told her that I told my brother I was there because we continue to fight over her affair. This is the truth, every fight we have can be traced back to it. She said I just humiliated her by talking to him about her affair. He already knows! She told him 14 years ago!

How do I do this (admit that I was wrong) and be truthful? I agree that going there did not help anything between me and my wife, but I needed to do it at the time for myself. She does not listen when I say there was a reason I went. It was in direct relation to the abuse I was receiving. Of course this doesn't work but its the truth. How do I speak the truth and still validate her?

Hey Link;

These are some of the hardest situations with a spouse with BPD -- the unrelenting focus on The Incident, with the demands for apologies, flavored with a sense of "If you'd just apologize and mean it, I'd let this go".

It makes sense that she doesn't listen when you say there was a reason you went. I know there was a reason you went -- it makes sense to me! To your W, though, it's likely that explanations and reasons come across as invalidating. We can accidentally invalidate others even when we don't mean to, and often, for pwBPD, hearing Justifications/Reasons, Arguments, Defenses, and Explanations, is something they experience as invalidating -- and that can increase the pestering/conflict. They feel unheard again, and so escalate the demands on you -- "I feel even more hurt and unheard, so my need for him to apologize grows".

Can you remind me if she is open to any kind of counseling with you?

Two paths forward are coming to mind right now, both of which may be uncomfortable for you and would take your commitment to try.

One would be -- if she's not closed off to counseling -- share with her that this sounds important to her, and, to make sure you really hear her, you will talk about it in counseling only.

Another would be -- validate what's valid, which is that you can genuinely say that if you were to go back and do it over again, you'd do it differently (at least, I think I'm reading you that way?), or, like you said, you agree with her that your action didn't seem to help your relationship, and you're sorry that what you did didn't help the relationship, and you would like to have a better relationship with her. Or whatever is actually true that you can genuinely say and mean -- that is really important.

... and then say "and that's all I have to say on that topic any more" or "and I won't discuss this topic again" or another "I am closing the door on this" statement.

The key part is to only say "that's all I have to say about that any more" if you have committed to yourself ahead of time to stop engaging with her about that topic! If you go down the road of saying "I won't discuss this any further", and then you crack... it teaches her that you don't mean what you say.

...

Link, you're here on the Bettering a relationship board, so I believe you want things to be better in your marriage. What's hard and unfair is that to stay in the relationship and have it stop getting worse (and hopefully get better!), change often has to come from us, the non-BPD. That doesn't make her actions or treatment of you okay -- it's more reflecting that if you're choosing to stay in the relationship (and there are many reasons to do so), that's kind of what's on the menu (vs hoping she'll "see the light"). And, the changes we make, we have to be 100% committed to sticking with, so that we don't accidentally reinforce to the pwBPD that "we don't really mean it" or "if they ask a 1001st time, we'll give in".

How's your energy level in that area? Do you think that you'd mentally be able to practice sticking to that one boundary, or is it feeling kind of daunting right now? And do you have any safety concerns if you were to try that? Want to make sure I didn't miss any.

Let us know how you've been;

kells76

[feelingf@!ked]

Truly wonderful advice but my question is if he has been alienated from his family, has nobody left and his only human contact is abusive, is it still worth trying? If this was a woman, would we say the same? More importantly, does this sound like BPD or something much more complicated? I ask because I can relate to my friend inching quickly towards the same.  I do not comply as she is a friend and not a SO. However, I have experienced her trying the same.

@link Do you have kids? Would she feel the same about her child visiting his or her sibling?

I agree with prior poster that therapy is so important and that the measures that were laid out are constructive.  I hope you can come to an understanding.

[Pook075]

Less time together at this point is nearly impossible. I've modified everything about my life to accommodate her. I text her every hour, I call her on the way to work, at lunch, on the way home. I try to do whatever I can to leave work at the same time every day. I spend every hour away from work with her. I go nowhere, I do nothing without her. If I stray from that, all hell breaks loose.

I understand how stupid this is.

Hey buddy.  That part above really jumped out at me and pretty much slapped me in the face, because I did the exact same thing.  My wife would do whatever, check in whenever, etc. and I was okay with that.  But if I went out without getting her explicit permission and I didn't get home when I said I would?  It was chaos, grudges, pouting, silent treatment...the whole gamut of BPD behavior. 

So like you, I just stopped having friends.  And things were better for a time, but my wife quickly moved onto something else to judge me on.  I wasn't loving enough, I wasn't happy enough, I wasn't <insert whatever word you feel like because I was probably accused of it>.

When my wife walked away about a year ago, my faith got me through it.  And as I came out of the fog, discarded my warped co-dependence, and really looked at my marriage, I realized that I was absolutely miserable for decades catering to her fragile ego that never played by the rules and never validated anything I did.

I said all of that to share this.  If you want to better your relationship and honor your marriage vows, then you HAVE TO stop walking on eggshells and pretending that you're a prisoner within your own marriage.  If faith got you through this, then lean on that even harder with some spiritual counseling from your pastor, rabbi, or whatever faith you have.  You must break these toxic cycles and fight for an actual marriage where you're loved, valued, and respected like your faith commands of you and your spouse.

In other words, stop fighting for "this marriage" and start fighting for the Godly marriage that aligns with your faith.  Maybe it happens.  Maybe it doesn't.  But I guarantee you that your God does not expect you to be miserable all the time as someone else's punching bag.

Now, you'll probably think the same thing I thought a year ago- "but I love her and I just want us to be happy."  I completely get it, I really do.  I said those words for months and wondered why God wasn't repairing my marriage.  The reason was simple though, so so simple.  I was putting my wife before God and living my life to serve her in every possible way, to the point where I was placing my own morals and beliefs to the side in order to cater to her every whim. 

You won't find those instructions in the Bible, the Koran, or whatever faith you practice.  Marriage is not slavery...it's two people joined before God with specific roles within the marriage.  Likewise, you're not expected to just take abuse and call it righteousness or sacrificial love.

I understand your wife is sick.  Mine is as well.  But you can't hide behind faith, my friend, and claim that its expected of you.  It's just not.  The tools along the top of this forum are essential for everyone living in a BPD relationship, but I feel like they're even more important for you and me.  You must make a stand and fight for a spiritual marriage...and that doesn't mean hourly check-ins and never talking to anyone else in this world because your spouse might become upset.

Question- have you considered a faith-based therapist for yourself?  I personally only attended a few sessions, but they really opened my eyes to the life I'm called to live.  Just something to consider, and I'm praying for you brother.