Visiting BPD Mother after 10 Years

[Miss_Kitty]

This is my first post, hi!  I've been lurking here and just love this board.

I cut off my mother shortly after the birth of my kids because I just couldn't with her anymore.  My family ended up moving several times after that for work/relocation and now we live 10 hours away.  I had been thinking about ending the cut off for about the last year or so.  Then she showed up at my house.  I ended up meeting with her and it went ok.  I realized I definitely do not regret cutting her off.  I was able to answer "what if" questions and feel more at peace.  Moving forward I think (hope) she can behave and I have the tools to manage her better. 

One thing that happened- she drank alcohol at dinner, passed out and we had to call paramedics.  It was then that I realized she had hurt herself for attention in the past.  She knew she couldn't drink with the medication she was on (she told me...that's the fun things about PD's, often if you listen they tell you).  We ended up following the ambulance to the hospital, I had to hold her purse until they would let me back there, we "visited" for about 45 minutes and said goodbye as she was leaving the next day.   My kids were there- in sketchy part of town and up past their bedtimes.  I felt stuck because I was literally holding her purse!  She took a taxi around midnight back to her hotel.  I called her the next day and chatted some.  I did not offer to add in more visits with her or invite her to my home or offer to stay at her hotel with her.  So I felt good about how I handled it, but I would have prefered not be at the hospital at all.  Do you think it's cool if next time I just pass her purse to the paramedic?

I am just trying to figure out how to navigate this without me being the jerk.  I don't think I can set a boundary around her becoming ill?  Because she makes it look real.  I would be the jerk saying I won't be around elderly mother if she is "sick".  What would you do in this situation?

[Methuen]

Miss Kitty: Welcome and congrats on your first post.

I applaud you for how you navigated the situation at the hospital. 

I'm curious to know if she was satisfied with the 45 min visit, and if there was any FOG? 

Do you think it's cool if next time I just pass her purse to the paramedic?

I think it is right to do what you need to do. 

 

I had been thinking about ending the cut off for about the last year or so.  Then she showed up at my house.  I ended up meeting with her and it went ok.  I realized I definitely do not regret cutting her off.  I was able to answer "what if" questions and feel more at peace.  Moving forward I think (hope) she can behave and I have the tools to manage her better.

There is a whole lot to unpack here.  Out of curiosity, how many years have you been NC?  You mention going NC after the birth of your kids...can you identify what has inspired you to reconsider ending the NC over the last year?  What has changed?  What makes you hope she can "behave"? 

Unless she has had successful therapy, I would take any reconnections low and slow.  I would predict you would have good visits with her in the beginning.  pwBPD's can be very charming, and behave in ways to have their needs met.  If her need is to reestablish contact with you (since she "showed up" at your house), then she's going to "behave" as long as she has to.  Do you think she showed up at your house for some reason that you might not know?  Why now?  I would practice wariness.  But if contact feels right for you - then slow and steady, until you know what is going on.

If she were my mother, she would be asking to move in with me.  Apart from the trip to the hospital after passing out at dinner, is she healthy?  Sick?

[Notwendy]

I am just trying to figure out how to navigate this without me being the jerk.  I don't think I can set a boundary around her becoming ill?  Because she makes it look real.  I would be the jerk saying I won't be around elderly mother if she is "sick".  What would you do in this situation?

I don't know if there's a way to have a boundary without feeling like a jerk. Even if I realize the boundary is necessary, it doesn't feel completely good to have to have such boundaries with this significant relationship. Although we have all made the best decision we can- I think if we have any boundaries, feeling like a jerk seems to be part of that.

[zachira]

So difficult to figure out what boundaries to have with your mother when you cannot really trust her. What boundaries do you think you need to have? We can feel guilty about setting boundaries with a mother with BPD because other people think we owe it to our mother to take care of her, though this site is different, as we get how important it is to set strict boundaries with our disordered family members in order to stay safe, and protect our mental and physical health. Welcome to PSI though sorry for the circumstances that bring you here.

[livednlearned]

You handled the post-hospital visit great! Not rewarding her with more attention after her spell is so smart.

Would you consider not serving alcohol to her when she's visiting?

I tried and failed to do that with my family but it at least made me feel I wasn't fully enabling their bad behavior.

Not going to the hospital doesn't seem like being a jerk. My mother has epilepsy and when she's had bad seizures my father sends her with a cellphone and some belongings in the ambulance mostly because he isn't always certain where she'll end up in the hospital. She secretly stopped taking an important med for her condition because she's vain about her hair and it started to thin, which she attributed to the medication. They argue about this endlessly. He began monitoring her medications but suspected she was not swallowing the pill in question. It makes you realize the lengths people will go to for what some like irrational reasons.

My father does follow her to the hospital but he waits until she's admitted and never rushes. I don't know if he's a good role model or not but it sort of set the tone for the rest of us. He's the one most impacted by her seizures and is the person most involved in her care. Even when he used to get more swept up in things the outcome was no different.

I guess the question is whose opinion matters most? Is it you feeling like a jerk, her implying you're a jerk, or worrying what people in the hospital think?

[Methuen]

I guess the question is whose opinion matters most? Is it you feeling like a jerk, her implying you're a jerk, or worrying what people in the hospital think?

This is golden.  

I struggle with this a lot.  I often post about societal expectations to care for aging parents and my struggles with that.  I totally empathize where you are coming from, because in my situation my mom and I know so many of the same people (hundreds), and I feel like I am being judged all the time by the things they say or ask me about her when I see them in town.

LNL asks a great question.  My answer is that the opinion that matters is ours - because only we know the full truth of the relationship.  Unless someone has a person with BPD in their life, they don't have a clue.

But I will be the first to admit this is my biggest struggle, because I also value my reputation and what people think of me.  I also hold as important the value to help people - and I have made a full career out of it.  And I would love to have the kind of mom that I could feel safe supporting in her old age.  But I can't help my mother because she isn't reasonable, rational, kind, or grateful.  She's manipulative, and uses fear/obligation/guilt to have her needs met.  She carries rage inside her that only comes out on me.  I am emotionally terrified of her. It is cumulative over a lifetime.  But no one else who knows her has any clue. They think she's charming and frail, and they probably think I should not have returned to work (out of retirement), but should be caretaking her more.  

I can't do any more than I'm doing.  My H is also maxxed out.

Whatever we did for my mother, it wouldn't ever be enough, or good enough.

I am just trying to figure out how to navigate this without me being the jerk.  I don't think I can set a boundary around her becoming ill?  Because she makes it look real.  I would be the jerk saying I won't be around elderly mother if she is "sick".  What would you do in this situation?

Ultimately, you should do what feels right for you, and damn the torpedos.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi miss_kitty and welcome to the board !

I don't have much to add here, but I have to agree with Notwendy that setting boundaries in place will always make part of us feel like "the jerk". We were raised this way. Hopefully the healthy adult part of you can however mitigate this feeling somehow... Mine often answer to the guilt feeling by balancing it out with anger (protection).

You've been no contact for so long, do I hear it well that you felt guilty about the whole thing or did you worry about what other people are the hospital might think? This is an important distinction... Or did you feel guilt about your desire to let the purse somewhere and leave?

From an external point of view, considering what happened, this is a normal reaction and a sane one, to want to leave. Part of you can see the manipulation. Does your mother has a history of alcoholism? My BPD mother is also alcoholic. And I just mean... It's ok for you to have certain expectations of behavior if this relationship with her is to continue... No more drinking alcohol at diner until passing out kinda expectations. She should be able to manage it for one night... The fact that she didn't, on one of the first "reunion night", is a big red flag in my opinion for the future of the relationship. All things considered, it sounds like you handled this whole thing like a pro. And I do think it ok to give the purse to a paramedic... And not validate the invalid.

It's not that we don't know our BPD parent require help. My mother (and yours) are in pain, we know that, we've seen it. We understand the root of the behavior is deep fear and hurt. I've however come to understand that, as her daughter, I simply cannot help her. I don't have the proper "role" for that. I am her child, I will never have the relationship required with her to help her. And so, the only thing I can do is protect myself.

I wanted to help my mother so much back when I was in contact, as I am sure you did. I was the adult of the relationship, offering advice and supporting her through adult things, even as a young child. Many of us did that here. The thing is : the very fact that I am her daughter means I am not in a position to actually help her. This whole dynamic just ends up pulling me down. So... Boundaries are better. And it's ok to have them. We cannot help our mothers, also because it's just too hurtful for us, because it's direct invalidation of the bond we never had. Everytime we take on the role of a helper, I think it trigger mini-us in there, because of the invalidation  They should have parented us, not the other way around.

Regular relationship between parent-child will evolve through time, and at some point, the child does become adult and will be able to help their parent. But if that parent never supported the child ... The natural evolution isn't there. It sucks us dry. I don't know it's hard to out in words. Hopefully it makes sense for you !

What brought you to break contact? I am also no contact with my BPD mother, went no contact shortly after the birth of my second child. Felt a very strong need to protect my children. What changed for you? Is it that your children are now older? If you want to share, no pressure though.

[Notwendy]

BPD mother has a history of alcohol and other substances and I agree- their reason is to deal with the pain of their emotions. Now, BPD mother has medication for her anxiety and it's a dilemma because, if she is medicated to where she's emotionally comfortable, she is overly medicated and gets confused and falls. When they cut back on her medicine, she's more alert but overwhelmed with anxiety- and this causes her to be very distressed. It's sad to see her struggle with this- and yet, to have her overly medicated isn't good either.

I found ACA to be a good resource and it's been a good support for those of us who "feel like a jerk" when we choose boundaries. One thing that helped me was to see how enabling isn't helping them either. I think we are so used to being helpful and we want to be helpful- but it's a fine line between that and being enabling- and sometimes very difficult to walk that line.

I understand Methuen's feelings and the feelings of all of us for whom being helpful is a part of our value system. I think one difference that the person has awareness that you too are a person with your own needs and responsibilities. As Methuen said- they didn't see what I could do  as enough, and even when I do come to help my mother now, she finds something to be angry at me for.

What it seems to be is that- somehow, I'm the jerk regardless. If I help, she finds something that I did to get angry at.  If I don't help, I'm the jerk.

Part of this too is feeling that what I do is short of my own standards. Of course I would want to be of assistance to an elderly parent. But when no matter what you do, it isn't good enough, then I guess we are the ones to decide what our best effort can be.

[Miss_Kitty]

Thanks everyone for your replies they have helped me so much!  I am on my phone but I will try to hit on as much as I can.  Multiple posts so I don't lose text.

I don't think I mentioned this but we are traveling to visit her right now.   This trip was already planned we would be in her state visiting other family,  so we just added her on.  We will see her Saturday.   

Why I ended the CO: I'm different now and I wondered if that would help the situation.  I wanted to confront the situation and it's helped me move on from a lot.  I wanted the kids to meet her and see the house I grew up in.   I have some belongings in that house I would like back.  Also, this is silly but I worried she would haunt me after her death!  And the main thing- I was not getting zero contact like I wanted.   She always sent packages.  And hang up calls and then she just showed up.   I never was able to mentally manage this.   It has been much better letting her in limited contact and now I feel fine when a package comes.

I don't have reason to believe she's different.   I do not plan to add her back in at an enmeshed level like it used to be.   It is limited contact.   I do think she has a shot of behaving with less contact.   She has to behave to be in my life and if not I can go ELC or CO again.

[Miss_Kitty]

She is not an alcoholic or addicted in any way.  I actually used to think she was NPD, it was my therapist that suggested BPD.  I thought BPD would loudly threaten suicide to get their way.   My mom doesn't do that.   It was this situation that made me realize every time she's went to the emergency room it was for attention.   I had realized she did it 1-2x when I was a kid,  she did not like the restaurant family chose so she somehow faked food poisoning.   

Well when I was 5 years old, about a year after my dad died- she fell off a ladder and broke her leg.  I thought she was dying.  Everyone said it was so lucky a jogger was going by the house right when she fell.  I now remember she had wanted my grandparents to come visit and they said no.  Well, this got them to visit. (Side note- this is a single parent/only child dynamic.   She never dated or remarried.   I was conceived after my dad's terminal diagnosis.   I was born with a job, so my PD mother could navigate the world the way she wanted.   With my dad's military benefits,  she did not return to work until I was almost 18 and about to move out.)

She also got food poisoning once when I was in college,  she used a cutting board she had cut raw meat on to cut bread on. 

And during the CO she somehow broke her back.   She's mentioned it a few times but I do not ask her about it. 

So this time with the alcohol was at least the 6th time in my lifetime.   She tends to be good with money so I don't think she would go to these lengths too frequently because of the cost.

She used the alcohol as a tool.  She said she hadn't drank in 10 years, never a big drinker.   She said she won't drink again and I believe that.   She can always just pull out a dirty cutting board. 

Also this was at a restaurant,  so I wasn't serving her.  I don't plan to have her to dinner in my home.

[Miss_Kitty]

Regarding the visit: she acted understanding at the hospital but I know her so she probably wasn't happy.  We had to wait 45 minutes to go back,  then we could only go back 2 at a time and with an escort.  So it was a process.   I had one kid with me and we played a card game with her.   The kids had wanted to play it at the restaurant.   Then we switched places with my husband and other kid.  Husband later told me she didn't participate in that game and just watched.   I feel this is significant.   I have came a long way and IMHO, it's a normal thing to play a card game with visiting family.   At least I thought it was a good idea,  something easy to do together.   But she didn't really want to play.   The attention was no longer on her.

FOG- I felt it at first, a lot.  I felt a lot of obligation and then guilt that I was not going to go along with obligation.   It was me putting it on me- for example thinking I should invite my mom on a vacation with us.  Then realizing that would be horrible so I'd never do that.   I felt bad that I would not be taking care of her at all in old age.  Because if she was different I definitely would.   I did not voice any of this to her.  I kept my boundaries with how much time we spent together and where- in place. 

She did say she thought she heard someone trying to open her hotel door one night.   I just changed the subject.   1. She lies 2. She's fishing for an invite to my home. 3. They would run the other way once they met her,  so no worries.

I did feel love bombing a lot at first.   It felt so good to have conversations with her being behaved!  I was actually thinking if she could just have treated me like this all along then there never would be a problem!  I was feeling so happy until I realized it was an act.  That's sad.  It felt like this is the best it's ever going to get,  and it's not real.  She's not capable of a real relationship and the best she can do is fake it and I was eating that up.   I felt self validation for feelings regarding her.  That it wasn't in my head that the relationship was off.  It was disappointing.   But if she can stay behaved I can accept her limitations.   I did really enjoy talking with her.

She is 71 and healthy enough.   She said she doesn't have long to live (aneurysm) but I looked it up and I don't think that's accurate.   Her mother lived to 85.  She contacted me (never stopped really) because she does not want her "estate" to go to her siblings when she dies.  She cares deeply that it goes to me and my kids.   

[Miss_Kitty]

I CO her after the birth of my premie twins.  She had to have the attention on her.   She did not want to change her clothes after smoking.   She bugged me to put my professionally installed carseats into her car so she could drive my babies around.   One time my baby was crying in public and she followed me around asking to hold the baby.  She wasn't supportive of me breastfeeding.   I could go on.  The last straw for me was when she called me fat after their birth,  more than once!  I did have a lot of anxiety regarding her and also my inlaws while pregnant.   I ended up going ELC with the inlaws.  After the CO I realized I was protecting my babies and it was also healing for me.   

I did not see or speak to her for 9 years and 4 months.   She left a few voice mails and sent lots of packages.   She called and hung up on a monthly basis usually with a spoofed phone number.   She's always loved playing games with the phone.   

[Miss_Kitty]

The purse had quite a lot of cash in it.  I told my husband we should call her grandma money bags.  The hospital let us all back one time before we had to switch to 2 at a time.   She started taking 100 dollar bills out of purse and throwing them at us.  So sorry and repaying the dinner cost.  We tried and failed to decline it.  Later I told her she can't do that again.   Problem with that is people without experience (like my kids!) think that's so generous.  She absolutely thinks there's strings attached,  but I am not buying into it.  It helps that we have more money than her and she can't control us in that way.   

So I didn't feel comfortable leaving her moneybags in a sketchy hospital.   But the paramedics seemed cool so I probably could have left it with them.   My friend asked me what would happen if she was alone when this happened,  and that was a good point. Although she did it on purpose so she either wouldn't have done it or would have left her money at the hotel.   But if she gets robbed,  natural consequences.   I guess I was thinking too much about protecting her belongings,  even though it wasn't my responsibility.   I fell for it again.

I didn't care too much about what people thought.   I actually snapped a pic of the paramedics with her.  Thought it would be good to not forget TBH.  The paramedics could tell there was animosity on my part.   They said it was good we called and I said that was great to know because I wasn't sure! 

So I don't have a huge problem setting boundaries or being a jerk, although it's not easy I can do what I need to do.   It is helpful to talk with like minded people like this board for the validation.

I just meant,  I can not prove she is faking it.  So I guess regarding that I do feel it makes me the jerk to confront her and I'm not sure if I will.  Do any of you have experience confronting someone that fakes illness that look real?  I may just set my boundaries and not tell her.  I will do the same as last time but not go to the hospital.   We will not change plans to accommodate her.  She needs to learn when she does this she gets less time,  not more.   

[Miss_Kitty]

Societal expectations as well as the opinion of a few people in my life does play a small role. But, I was ok CO for nearly 10 years.   So it bugs me at times but I will do what I need to do.   

These same people would judge that I'm not doing enough for her now.   I just want to shake them.   What about me?  Why does no one care about what's best for me and my kids?  Why does everyone think my mom is so kind, sweet and generous?  I feel like whenever I try to explain it makes it worse. 

This is coming up because this weekend I will tell my uncle and his wife I am in contact with my mother.   I am worried their reaction will offend me (like saying they are proud of me).  I am planning to say it was not an easy choice.  Also they knew she was headed my way and didn't tell me.   Any advice navigating this?

There has been a weight off my shoulders not being estranged anymore.   I realized her voice in my head was never gone after all this time and therapy.   Seeing her it was a bit more present.   But now I go days without thinking of her at all!  I feel much better for some reason.

That's all for now,  I will check back later

[livednlearned]

Do any of you have experience confronting someone that fakes illness that look real?  I may just set my boundaries and not tell her.  I will do the same as last time but not go to the hospital.   We will not change plans to accommodate her.  She needs to learn when she does this she gets less time,  not more.   

My guess is that confronting her directly won't go over well.

For me, changing my behaviors has had more of an impact.

Both ways of responding can lead to conflict but non-verbal boundaries seems to be more effective, if that makes sense. People who got their way doing something will have protest behaviors when that way stops working. If you tell them why it's not working, they will protest what you're saying, versus protesting the change in your behavior.

You have two little kids and hospitals aren't great places. That's a plausible thing to say. Your value system might point you to support a loved one in the hospital but she's using that value system to get something in an unhealthy way.

I don't like to compare people to dogs but I have a new puppy and some of the training tips apply to problematic people. If my dog jumps on me, I turn away. No reward. He's a fast learner and he no longer jumps.

You might feel the nee to give your mom something to explain why you used to go to the hospital but no longer will. "Wow, last time I realized there's not much I can do in the hospital, I'm glad you were discharged quickly. Plus, it's not a place to take kids and being there was so depressing/exhausting/overwhelming. If I had to do it again, I would send your purse with the paramedics so you have your phone. You can call us when you get admitted."

Idk. Something to give her a heads up that things are different, you learned from this last episode?

I was estranged from my father for 7 years, and my BPD brother for 10. Estrangements can be healthy and ending them is also healthy, as long as you figured out how to have a safe relationship, which it sounds like you have.

The social pressures to be in contact with family is very powerful.

[Notwendy]

I have had a similar situation, including taking BPD mother to the emergency room for her various issues, as we can not tell what is real or not.

Her extended family were in her camp, and wondered why her children were not assisting her more but somehow, she must have shown her behavior to them. I had gone LC with my mother and also avoided much contact with them as I think they believed what she told them about me.

A while back they called me to say they were travelling and would be near us and would my H and I meet them for dinner. We agreed, expecting the usual report about how great BPD mother is.

They turned to me at the table and said "we understand what is going on with her" and I about fell off my chair.

I never expected that. It seemed like a miracle. I am still wary about anyone connected to my mother but I think at this point, they've been around her enough to get it.

How did I navigate this? I think what helped is that- I didn't say a whole lot about her. Eventually, her narrative didn't make sense and they saw more of her behavior. It may take some time but I think you behaving cordially and at your best with them may be the best way to do this. Eventually ( hopefully) if they are around your mother enough, they might get it, but if they don't, they aren't going to believe you anyway. I didn't see the point in saying a lot since if they didn't believe me, they'd just think I was badmouthing her.

Did it hurt my feelings that they thought poorly of me? Yes, and I cried about it. But it's two stories- hers or mine. They can't both be true. And they have to see it for themselves if they ever will.

Smile, be cordial, say as little as possible and have a nice visit. I will hope for understanding for you as well.

[Miss_Kitty]

My guess is that confronting her directly won't go over well.

For me, changing my behaviors has had more of an impact.

Both ways of responding can lead to conflict but non-verbal boundaries seems to be more effective, if that makes sense. People who got their way doing something will have protest behaviors when that way stops working. If you tell them why it's not working, they will protest what you're saying, versus protesting the change in your behavior.

You have two little kids and hospitals aren't great places. That's a plausible thing to say. Your value system might point you to support a loved one in the hospital but she's using that value system to get something in an unhealthy way.

I don't like to compare people to dogs but I have a new puppy and some of the training tips apply to problematic people. If my dog jumps on me, I turn away. No reward. He's a fast learner and he no longer jumps.

You might feel the nee to give your mom something to explain why you used to go to the hospital but no longer will. "Wow, last time I realized there's not much I can do in the hospital, I'm glad you were discharged quickly. Plus, it's not a place to take kids and being there was so depressing/exhausting/overwhelming. If I had to do it again, I would send your purse with the paramedics so you have your phone. You can call us when you get admitted."

Idk. Something to give her a heads up that things are different, you learned from this last episode?

I was estranged from my father for 7 years, and my BPD brother for 10. Estrangements can be healthy and ending them is also healthy, as long as you figured out how to have a safe relationship, which it sounds like you have.

The social pressures to be in contact with family is very powerful.

This put in to words what I was thinking!  If it was a good idea to just change my behavior or if I had to have a verbal boundary.   And with this situation I didn't see how a verbal boundary would work.   

I also have a puppy!  He's 2 years old now.  I had been thinking dog training and raising kids has helped prepare me for this.   I'm used to being in charge and setting rules.

[Miss_Kitty]

[quote author=Notwendy link=topic=355757.msg13194662#msg13194662 date=1685644235

How did I navigate this? I think what helped is that- I didn't say a whole lot about her. Eventually, her narrative didn't make sense and they saw more of her behavior. It may take some time but I think you behaving cordially and at your best with them may be the best way to do this. Eventually ( hopefully) if they are around your mother enough, they might get it, but if they don't, they aren't going to believe you anyway. I didn't see the point in saying a lot since if they didn't believe me, they'd just think I was badmouthing her.
[/quote]

I'm so glad the extended family was able to see the truth!  I think your advice is just what I needed.   I can't bad mouth her.  They are going to believe what they choose. I will plan to say very little.  That should be easy because in the 10 years she's came up in conversation I think 3 times.