The Steep Learning Curve

[Depression = 72% of members]

I keep working on my boundaries and am having occasionally some bad experiences with people who I never should have continued to be around. Red Flag number one for me is that if there isn't reciprocal communication than I will usually eventually get mistreated if the contact continues. Lately I am walking away from people who I enjoy learning about when they do not ask a single question about me after a long conversation. Tonight I was insulted out of the blue by a married man I have known for a long time who I see in the park and often chat with. He never has asked a single question about me.Tonight when he saw me, he immediately insulted me, saying that he had seen this man on the bicycle (whom I talk to occasionally) and that meant he was going to run into me. He said he had seen me two days in a row and implied that I was stalking him. He told me you live here (in the park).  He told me to get away and leave him alone. I had not seen this man much in the last few months. I did run into him at the Farmers Market last week and yesterday, and briefly spoke to him observing he really did not want to talk to me. Tonight I just said hello and than he went on his rant and walked away. The odd part about his referral to the man on the bicycle is I saw the man on the bicycle leaving the park 30 minutes earlier about 2 miles from where I ran into this man. I am guilty of ignoring this man's boundaries, being way too friendly and intrusive. Usually when I do this, most people get more distant with me, and I respect their distance; I had been doing this with this man lately so none of this makes sense, and it probably won't. He did tell me when I saw him at the Farmers Market that he has not been to work for over two weeks because the union is on strike. I think I am upset because this reminds me of how my disordered family members treat me: suddenly angry and making false accusations out of the blue. Thank you for reading this and listening. The triggers are always there, and I usually manage them pretty well. Getting yelled at and insulted for no reason, does bother me, and I think this is probably normal. Got lots of meditation to do to calm down.

[zachira]

I keep working on my boundaries and am having occasionally some bad experiences with people who I never should have continued to be around. Red Flag number one for me is that if there isn't reciprocal communication than I will usually eventually get mistreated if the contact continues. Lately I am walking away from people who I enjoy learning about when they do not ask a single question about me after a long conversation. Tonight I was insulted out of the blue by a married man I have known for a long time who I see in the park and often chat with. He never has asked a single question about me.Tonight when he saw me, he immediately insulted me, saying that he had seen this man on the bicycle (whom I talk to occasionally) and that meant he was going to run into me. He said he had seen me two days in a row and implied that I was stalking him. He told me you live here (in the park).  He told me to get away and leave him alone. I had not seen this man much in the last few months. I did run into him at the Farmers Market last week and yesterday, and briefly spoke to him observing he really did not want to talk to me. Tonight I just said hello and than he went on his rant and walked away. The odd part about his referral to the man on the bicycle is I saw the man on the bicycle leaving the park 30 minutes earlier about 2 miles from where I ran into this man. I am guilty of ignoring this man's boundaries, being way too friendly and intrusive. Usually when I do this, most people get more distant with me, and I respect their distance; I had been doing this with this man lately so none of this makes sense, and it probably won't. He did tell me when I saw him at the Farmers Market that he has not been to work for over two weeks because the union is on strike. I think I am upset because this reminds me of how my disordered family members treat me: suddenly angry and making false accusations out of the blue. Thank you for reading this and listening. The triggers are always there, and I usually manage them pretty well. Getting yelled at and insulted for no reason, does bother me, and I think this is probably normal. Got lots of meditation to do to calm down.

[Notwendy]

I understand. I once had an encounter with a complete stranger in a restaurant. A woman was sitting at the next table. She overheard me ask a server for something and completely misunderstood what I said and went off on me accusing me of something I didn't do. Now logically - this is crazy. I wasn't doing anything.

Logically, anyone would conclude that this woman was crazy and out of line. Me? I panicked- began to ruminate about what I might have done wrong that this woman did this- as if it was my fault- but there's no way it was. I was shaken up for hours after this.

I think someone else may have just shrugged this off and decided this woman was just crazy and logically that's the situation. I did nothing wrong and I know it. It's her twisted thinking that caused her to react that way and it was out of line. But when we've experienced this with our own family, we question ourselves.

In Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse, one example is when someone defines us. This is a boundary violation. Defining someone else is out of line. Your "friend" ( doesn't sound like a friend) has no right to accuse you of this. Lots of people like the park. I have run into people in the park and talk to them. It's coincidence, not stalking, if two people who go to the park a lot are in the same place at the same time. I also would probably strike up a friendly chat with someone if I kept running into them, with boundaries of course.

I also know a man who talks about himself mostly when we speak.  I suspect some narcissism on his part. Since we are just acquaintances, he's not acted in any hurtful way with me, and he's been cordial but I agree- someone who isn't showing any interest in another person would be a red flag to me. Even if someone is married and has boundaries, they can still ask "how's it going" or "how do you like your new job" - just something to acknowledge that the other person exists. This "friend" of yours has shown another side of him and it would make sense to keep a cordial distance.

[Riv3rW0lf]

In Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse, one example is when someone defines us. This is a boundary violation. Defining someone else is out of line.

Now I need to read that book. This is what I noticed one my neighbors doing all the time with me... Telling me when I put my children to bed, telling me how I feel about things, even though that is not how I feel about those things at all ...this is the one I found much easier seeing the red flags, and keeping away from.

Yesterday though, the other neighbor came over. This one only talks about herself, and will say things I said to the other neighbor. Yet I still "opened up". Not about anything very very hard that cannot be guessed by my situation, but I did say I found it hard with H gone and home care closed. I did mention I had a big contract and client needing my care and that it was stressful, now I wonder how this will pop back on me, and if I will get attacked at some point. I do feel she isn't interested, because she will change the subject and doesn't seem to be listening or caring at all. I am sure how to handle this, to be honest. I tend to "assert" myself to get some talking in, but maybe I should just be polite and cut it short? I don't know.

It's tricky because those that only talk about themselves, not showing interest, could also be doing it for protection? I remember reading on egocentricity... What's the line between narcissism and egocentricity? One is more risky than the other... I find it harder to manage.

Zacchira, I am sorry you got yelled at for no reason, this is just unacceptable. It sounds like he discharged his stressful and negative emotions on you, and you didn't deserve that. It's normal to be triggered. And I'm not sure I agree that "regular" people don't get triggered by this. I think most people would feel bad and icky after this kind of interaction. This is a normal reaction to being attacked, to a threat. Finding safety back is often what we have more problems  doing, because our coping mechanism often include taking responsibility for things we have no power over... I hope you were able to do some self care and ground yourself back.

I often feel bad about myself when I lose footing, like "I shouldn't have lost my footing for this!" Which is truly just another way to abuse myself... I hope you are gentler with yourself, and full of self-compassion right now.

 

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Thank you for giving me the term to explain how I was treated. Yes, it indeed was verbal abuse. While I appreciate your sharing your example of verbal abuse by a complete stranger and how badly you felt, I do not see myself as an innocent victim, not that I deserved to be treated the way I was. I have been quite lonely lately and the park has been my solace. I often ignore people's boundaries and am too talkative with people who would rather be left alone at some point. I do well with people with healthy boundaries as they are comfortable letting me know what their boundaries are and in kind ways. It is seeing myself behave like my disordered family members that bothers me. I have made great strides in making friends with a few healthy people and have much work to do in setting boundaries with people I should never be around. With the disordered people, I have full responsiblity for setting the healthy boundaries, and I am a work in progress in doing so. Today my nervous system is a wreck after a sleepless night. I ask myself: When is the nightmare of attracting unhealthy people who abuse me going to end? I know the answer. I will always be triggered at times because of all the abuse I have suffered and continue to suffer at the hands of my disordered family members and their flying monkeys. I have some work to do on ending conversations quickly and limiting contact with people who have no interest in me. I looked up Patricia Evans and found several interesting books, one of which I ordered. One of the interesting things you have said and Patricia Evens says is that when people define you that is abuse. Yes, I am being defined by this man in the park as a woman who stalks him and makes him feel uncomfortable. He does not see any other side to me, despite the times I have listened to him share all kinds of things which he enjoyed sharing or times I was there for him when he was upset about something. For most of my extended family, I am a loser. The odd part of all this, is the night before I was abused by this man, I was contacted by the family member who treats me with respect and kindness most of the time. He let me know he was doing some long distance driving and to call him if I wished to do so. I really enjoyed chatting with him. The conversation went back and forth, as he acknowledged interest and showed empathy for me. He also let me know he wasn't anxious to hang up even though he had a call from his daughter. I did end the conversation at that point, as we had been talking quite awhile and I need to end conversations before the person wants to, though he would have kindly let me know he wanted to end the conversation. He is married to a wonderful woman and I often compliment him on how he has raised really nice children. I had one of my closest friends who comes from a family I have known from childhood, tell me recently that in life we usually can count our true friends on one hand. Besides her, I have two other friends in that family. I went to their house for Thanksgiving one year and was so delighted by how the family members acknowledge and love all the children. This family has known my family for many generations. My NPD sister does not have a friendship with any of them, yet she seems to have convinced a large part of the community that I am an unworthy person. I believe my sister just isn't interested in people who are genuine fine people. She likes to surround herself with superficial people in which there is no conflict, just mutual admiration of how brilliant and superior they are to others. I want to be part of a smaller club in which the relationships are close, kind, and genuine. I will be meditating today until I am back to baseline. Thank you Notwendy for helping me to understand what happened and put it into words.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Your stories about your neighbors always resonate with me in that oftentimes people who we barely know and are people we have to be around some of the time, do have a big impact on our lives. These women are close neighbors who regularly interact with you and your family. It sounds like you are trying to set healthy boundaries with them yet are still learning about what kind of boundaries to have with them. This really does relate to my trying to figure out how to set boundaries with people I run into at the park that I walk in evey day, particularly people I see on a regular basis. With some people, it is easy as they let me know what their boundaries are: whether it is wanting no contact at all, just to only say a quick hello, or usually to chat for a few minutes or longer when we see each other. The people who I see as challenging are the ones who have extremely poor boundaries and the ball is completely in my park to set the boundaries which is what I have had to deal with my whole life with my disordered family members. The problem is that disordered people cannot be counted on to show you who they really are, because their sense of self changes depending on how they are feeling in the moment and how they are feeling gets dumped onto others so they don't have to deal with their uncomfortable emotions and feelings. It seems the solution with these type of people is to keep things as superficial as possible while setting some pretty strict boundaries when necessary. I am working on having more self compassion, as I know that the more self compassion I have the more I will feel worthy of making friends with healthy people and the quicker I will exit from situations with disordered people. Thank you taking time to reply and show that you care.

[Notwendy]

It is a learning curve and we are all learning. Also please don't be too hard on yourself. All you did was talk to the man. He also has the responsibility for his boundaries- if he wanted to be alone, that's on him to say it and it would have been nicer if he did it politely. It's a giant leap ( into distorted thinking) to assume anything more than just a chat. Maybe you spoke a bit much, but what he said was inappropriate.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
Yes, this is a learning curve and we are all learning. I have done really well with my triggers the past few months and have not had a major breakdown over anything until now. Last fall a woman told me nobody likes you around here. She is a new owner in the area, and I knew exactly who told her that, as she really doesn't know me at all. Her source was a covert narcissist whom she bought her house from after the owner sold when she abused too many people and earned the dislike of nearly everyone. I wasn't bothered at all by the comment, as I know the past owner was furious that I unmasked so many of her abuses. Narcissists hate being found out. I wish I could handle being abused like this every time. The new owner has shown her true colors right out of the starting gate, so I know to stay away from her.
This particular incident has left me in a nervous crisis. My stomach is upset and I feel afraid. His behaviors are so sick and irrational. There really is no rational explanation for his abusing me nor any justifications for his behaviors. The park has always been my safe place. Now I am afraid of running into this man. I am going to do my meditation and go to the park today.Hopefully this man will leave me alone and he will go back to work soon. I know I have to face my fears to be able to move on. I do not want to get into a situation that I can't easily get out of with abusive people like with my disordered family members and their flying monkeys.

[Riv3rW0lf]

The park has always been my safe place. Now I am afraid of running into this man. I am going to do my meditation and go to the park today.Hopefully this man will leave me alone and he will go back to work soon. I know I have to face my fears to be able to move on. I do not want to get into a situation that I can't easily get out of with abusive people like with my disordered family members and their flying monkeys.

I understand this so very much, and I hope you found your ground back, because you have a right to enjoy a stroll in the park without being abused by strangers and acquaintances. He was out of place. You have a right to be there and to enjoy this safe space. I am so sorry he took that from you and I really do hope you find your feeling of safety back. You did nothing wrong. And we are all here for you.

[Notwendy]

I think I was in a similar situation several years ago. It seemed that some disordered people felt it was OK to say and do mean things to me.

People who are emotionally healthy, and who respect boundaries, don't do and say things like that. Disordered people disrespect boundaries and people with healthy boundaries can sense that. I think this is on an emotional level. Looking at why people match up with partners who are disordered - their own boundaries have something to do with that. There could be an initial attraction, but someone with emotionally healthy boundaries would feel uncomfortable around them and the relationship would not progress.

I think I can speak for many of us here- our boundary "radar" may be a bit skewed. We probably can recognize the large red flags, but I know that for me, in my family growing up- weak boundaries was the "normal" so I didn't recognize the less obvious until someone actually acted mean to me. But probably there were other more subtle boundary issues that I didn't recognize at first, and so the other person got to the point where they felt they could act like that.

Does that make sense? There were two people in my circle. One I suspect now probably had BPD. She just caused so much drama. For some reason though, I kept trying to be friends with her, and she kept doing and saying mean things to me, but I still tried to be her friend. I was also a people pleaser and tried to be so nice to other people.

The other person- what I know about her now is that she was married to an alcoholic and these dynamics are similar. She kept yelling at me. I finally asked her- why are you yelling at me and she answered "Because I can!".

I learned in 12 step co dependency groups that we teach people how to treat us. I now know that tolerating mean behavior is something I learned to do growing up- we were expected to tolerate my BPD mother's behavior. If we tolerate this, people will learn they can treat us this way. Probably before this "friend" ever yelled at me, she had figured out she could.

The solution? Work on our own boundaries and it's a work in progress- we are all learning. When I mentioned the woman in the restaurant - it wasn't just that it was not my fault- it was my reaction to it- that freeze up and think it was my fault. But even if I had done something out of line- it was still inappropriate for her to say what she did but I still worried that it might be about me, because of the way things were in my family.

Zachira- what I think might have happened is not because you did anything wrong. I talk to people in the park sometimes too. It's possible there were more subtle signals about this man that you didn't pick up on- but even so, saying what he said is out of line- that isn't your fault.

[livednlearned]

I do not see myself as an innocent victim, not that I deserved to be treated the way I was. I have been quite lonely lately and the park has been my solace. I often ignore people's boundaries and am too talkative with people who would rather be left alone at some point.

What are the cues telling you they would rather be left alone?

I do well with people with healthy boundaries as they are comfortable letting me know what their boundaries are and in kind ways.

I feel the same way. I notice how much calmer I feel when people say to me, "I have a hard stop at x o'clock."

It is seeing myself behave like my disordered family members that bothers me. I have made great strides in making friends with a few healthy people and have much work to do in setting boundaries with people I should never be around.

 
Do you notice new things you're doing that have been working well for you?

With the disordered people, I have full responsiblity for setting the healthy boundaries, and I am a work in progress in doing so.

Me too. In one of your posts in my recent thread you made me realize that I still take on a lot of responsibility for other people. I've been looking at some of things socialized into me. When other people don't do them I shrug it off but for me I see it almost like a rule. A friend told me the other day that people become uncomfortable (on average) after 4 seconds. I think my comfort may be half a second 

Making change is so hard. Therapists I've had in the past, the ones that were effective in terms of talk therapy, often had me break big things into small pieces. Maybe there are small habits you can examine to see how they set you up for behaviors you want to change.

When is the nightmare of attracting unhealthy people who abuse me going to end?

Do you think feeling lonely complicates this even more? It's a very painful feeling.

I have some work to do on ending conversations quickly and limiting contact with people who have no interest in me.

I share this challenge with you. Ending conversations with people is hard for me. I also find it hard when people have expectations for friendship even when I see red flags.

I want to be part of a smaller club in which the relationships are close, kind, and genuine.

 

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
Thank you for understanding how important it is for me to feel safe in the park. I think this man is more afraid of me than I am of him. He seems to be coming late to the park and avoiding me if I am there. I think what set him off was I ran into him at the Farmers Market, a place we have never seen each other before, so some how he got this idea that I am stalking him. He is paranoid and afraid of close relationships. He also has been on strike from his job for the past two weeks which he told me about at the Farmers Market and immediately turned away, which suggests to me he has some overwhelming feelings right now, possibly shame. Still this does not excuse how he took out his feelings on me. I think I will be okay as long as he does not continue to bother me.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I am glad to read you went back to the park despite the initial feeling of fear attached to it. And it is a good thing that he is staying away from you. Maybe he is feeling shame... And honestly, he should.

I wonder... hypothetically, if he was to apologize, do you think you would want to chitchat with him again? Is there any reparation possible from this kind of fall out from a stranger? I tend to have very flexible limits, too flexible, and am trying to correct that. My husband has much harder boundaries than I do. He sticks to them in ways I am unable to do... I zigzag, come back on what I know and feel, question it all the time... Does that resonate with you? I thought this was a strength, but relationship wise, I am not so sure anymore.

[zachira]

Notwendy,
I too have chosen not to recognize the signs that I am in the presence of a disordered person until that person has been mean to me. I too identify with a person treating  me badly because the person feels he/she can.

Riv3rWOlf,
Dr Ramani talks about how giving second chances to someone who has treated you badly as what leads to the abuses to go on and on. With domestic violence, there is a cycle of abuse than an apology repeating over and over again often for years. I would not accept an apology from this man because it would not be sincere. I often wish that people who have abused me would sincerely apologize for being cruel to me and I know it won't happen. People who can sincerely apologize usually have done something that is a common mistake we humans often make, whereas egregious behaviors demonstrate that the abuser is not capable of genuine remorse, except in exceptional cases in which there is a real wake up call.

[zachira]

Livednlearned,

What are the cues telling you they would rather be left alone?
I have a hard time understanding what a serious face means as my disordered family members, particularly my mother, never looked/look genuinely happy. (There is no feeling of genuinely being enjoyed for who I am by most of my relatives and the people I often have chosen to be in my inner circle.) I notice that the feet pointed away from me means the person wants to end the conversation. It helps when a person tells me that he/she has to go. Other signs are more subtle and can mean many things. For example, when another person never asks about me, it can just mean that the person is self centered, and enjoys talking to me as long as he/she is getting the kind of attention he/she craves. What are the cues for you that tell you a person would rather be left alone?
 
Do you notice new things you're doing that have been working well for you?
A couple of days before the incidence with this man, a friend told me how much happier I am since I went very low contact with my family. This friend has a sister with BPD whom she went no contact with many years ago after the sister with BPD tried to ruin her wedding and after many attempts to get along with her. Yesterday my much younger neighbor who is a wonderful mother to her two very young children told me how much she enjoys talking with me. I do well with people who I enjoy and who enjoy me, and people who are genuinely happy with their lives. My challenges are to be more appreciative of what I have, to enjoy the small things, and to be generous with the right people and in the right moments. I often am way too generous with my time with people who do not appreciate my efforts, and I am getting better at noticing the red flags and limiting the contact sooner.  

Maybe there are small habits you can examine to see how they set you up for behaviors you want to change.
I am trying to be more mindful for more time each day, to notice how I feel inside, which makes me more aware of how others are feeling.

Do you think feeling lonely complicates this even more? It's a very painful feeling.
The effects of the pandemic have complicated having to go very low contact with my close relatives and large extended family along with the flying monkeys, and ending so called friendships with the wrong people which has left me spending way too much time alone, and often feeling better just being alone most of the time. I do enjoy my own company while realizing I can overdo the alone time to the point that I am needy for people contact and push people away with how needy I am. I need to be more assertive in making and keeping the right kind of friends.  

I share this challenge with you. Ending conversations with people is hard for me. I also find it hard when people have expectations for friendship even when I see red flags.
I find it hard to end conversations with people and I link that to being rejected by my FOO and the large extended family, and since birth made one of the black sheep of the family. I also do not like to hurt people and turn down their offers for friendship yet I am realizing I am hurting myself by enabling the disordered behaviors of others. I also realize I am hurting other people by enabling their disordered behaviors.

Thank you for the great questions and sharing your wisdom.

 

[livednlearned]

I have a hard time understanding what a serious face means as my disordered family members, particularly my mother, never looked/look genuinely happy. (There is no feeling of genuinely being enjoyed for who I am by most of my relatives and the people I often have chosen to be in my inner circle.)

I can see why that would be hard. You wouldn't be regularly seeing a full spectrum of facial expressions. That would make it hard to trust that those expressions went with specific emotions and intentions.

What are the cues for you that tell you a person would rather be left alone?

This is complicated for me. My son has autism and doesn't feel comfortable with eye contact, but he can be very engaged even though it doesn't look like it to neurotypical people. I seem to be re-learning some cues because of him.
 

I often am way too generous with my time with people who do not appreciate my efforts, and I am getting better at noticing the red flags and limiting the contact sooner.  

I'm so happy for you. Those are all genuine, heart-warming moments. It can feel vulnerable to say things like that to people, you must mean a lot to them for them to tell you.

I find it hard to end conversations with people and I link that to being rejected by my FOO and the large extended family, and since birth made one of the black sheep of the family.

Do you think that the struggle to end conversations is wanting to avoid the feeling that the connection will come to an end?

I have a similar issue with conversations ending that I'm not quite sure what to make of. I read somewhere once that people who talk a lot might do so because they can avoid their feelings. That could describe me at times. My mother lives to be the center of attention and I associate those behaviors with being self-centered and self-absorbed and harmful, since her desire to be center of attention caused me a lot of harm, through neglect. I often want to end the conversation and can't.

But there's another possibility I think about. I wonder if this resonates with you. When I think of the intense demands my uBPD sibling made on my attention, I realize now how weird it was. If I didn't demonstrate that I was paying attention, then I got punished. I think it has made me weirdly hypervigilant about making sure people know I'm listening and paying attention. To end the conversation means I get to choose when to end the attention, and that wasn't safe.

[zachira]

Livednlearned,
My challenges in ending conversations, ignoring obvious signs that I am around an unsafe person, etc., are all related to extreme neglect in childhood. My mother with BPD had no capacity for empathy for children and my father was similarly impaired though not to the extremes that my mother was. When I was around 4 years old, my bedroom was in the basement so far away from my parents, that they would not hear me if I was crying. The door between the basement and the upstairs where my parents' bedroom was, was always locked. I would sometimes have a nightmare, bang on the door for a long time before my mother came. She would let me crawl in bed with her, while making it clear she wanted no physical contact with me, and let me know she was relieved when I left. My understanding is that a lot of the worst child abuse starts around 2 years of age with the terrible twos and the disordered parent is no longer enchanted with their adorable baby. I think that perhaps the people on PSI who were able to marry and be there for their children probably were not severely abused until they were toddlers. I was left in the crib as a baby for hours on end with nobody responding to my cries, and developed severe disassociation from that, which was successfully treated with EMDR therapy. I have learned many important life skills over the years: to enjoy children, to mostly stop talking over people, to have reciprocal conversations, etc., I am well aware that there is such a thing as brain plasticity as I have personally experienced so many positive changes in how my brain works, and later in life. I had never looked at babies or had any interest in them, until I was in my forties and it was pointed out to me that I did not look at or notice babies. Once I started to interact with babies, I thorougly enjoyed them. About 2 years after having never ever been emotionally present with a baby, I was in a line and a toddler was running around. Another person in line remarked that she knew I was a mother and loved children. Later the job I fell in love with was working with children and adolescents. The learning curve is steep and I continue to make progress. The hard part is when I stumble, like with this man who ruthlessly attacked me in the park with no justification for doing so. I am so grateful to no longer resemble so many of my disordered family members and their flying monkeys who have no capacity for genuine empathy and are extremely narcissistic.

[Methuen]

I am sorry Zachira that this man in the park has triggered you.  But I also celebrate your awareness and recognition of your progress and growth in so many ways.

I am late to this thread, but interested in the conversation about how many of us end up  feeling bad about ourselves after someone else's bad behavior is directed at us.

Relationships are complicated because people can be so complicated.  IMHO, people who behave badly by saying and doing mean things to hurt other people (including creating divisiveness), do so because they are emotionally disturbed and not aware of their own issues, and not working on their own personal growth.  They are hurting, so they make themselves feel better by hurting other people. They bully, berate, abuse. But at the end of the day, who can feel good about themselves after that?  Which leads to a downward shame spiral. Just my theory.

We once had a couple stay with us for an extended period of time.  One person is someone we both care for and love dearly. We did this to help them out financially. We have always been the type to say "what can we do?" or "how can we help?" when we go visiting with friends or family, so we assumed this couple would do the same.  We are very hands on when it comes to helping others when we are in their home.  It didn't happen here, because there was little help from them. I was doing extra shopping, cooking and cleaning for 2 extra adults, and I think it was reasonable of us to assume they would lend a hand with the work when we first extended the offer for them to stay with us.  But their  help was minimal, and I started to burn out. One day, I went to one and kindly asked if s/he could help me. I was afraid of a reaction, so I took special care to be kind when asking for help. S/he took great offense to my ask.  What I think s/he heard was me accusing them of not doing much.  In fact, I was only asking for help with something. It didn't end well - I was in tears, after being accused of a number of things.  I didn't sleep for two weeks.  Why did I take that on after being so generous to offer them to stay with us, and then doing all the work too?

In your example Zachira, you felt bad after some dude in the park that you routinely see treated you badly.  That is so hard.  But when it's family doing this to you (as yours always has), it's even harder, because family are the people we should feel safe with and trust.  Because we've been abused by family on some level, it makes us vulnerable to taking abuse from non-family as well. This is a very very difficult thing for us all to navigate.  It puts a whole other layer to the meaning of "emotional intelligence".  Like others, I also struggle with how to manage dysfunctional people who seem to have the ability to make me feel bad.  I have made progress, and can manage dysfunctional people who are not close to me better, but I really struggle with dysfunctional people who I care about deeply. Sometimes there are things we can change in ourselves that are within our control.  But sometimes there are things in the other person that are outside our control.  

I don't know if there are strategies other than accepting, and grieving.  If there are, I would dearly love to hear about what has worked for others to manage all this.

[zachira]

Methuen,
As always I appreciate your kind thoughful posts. Yes, it is more painful when we are mistreated by family, especially family we can't totally avoid, especially close family members we have to interact with frequently like you do with your mother.
I too am looking for strategies to deal with people who mistreat others and who do not reciprocate generosity, making the relationship a mostly one way street. I think what is working the best for me right now is to get to know myself better and to see who is who sooner, while treating people differently depending on how I feel about them and how they treat me. For a long time, I had this idea that I should treat everybody like I would want to be treated. This strategy is a total disappointment and set up for being abused when dealing with a disordered person. I now am somebody I sometimes don't necessarily like for my own protection when with a disordered person in that I use chosen strategies like distancing myself, lying, and manipulation if I need to, and only if I need to. (It makes me think of a person whose family was starving at the end of a war and the mother took her children with her to steal food from the local farmers' fields. The mother frequently told her children that stealing was usually wrong and that they had to steal food so they would have something to eat.) I have chosen to use these strategies with my disordered family members and their flying monkeys as they are frequently reaching out to me and others who know me to harm me emotionally, financially, and legally. I can be challenged in keeping my faith in myself and recognizing the goodness of humanity in general, AND being able to be open, trusting, and generous with wonderful people while practicing healthy boundaries, as nourishing fulfilling relationships thrive on healthy boundaries and disintegrate when the healthy boundaries are not in place. We also do better in unhealthy relationships when we practice putting healthier boundaries in place though it can be pretty discouraging most of the time, as disordered people will usually keep abusing our boundaries to see what they can get away with because this is who they are. It helps me sometimes to remind myself that I have become a decent person in my own right and that the people who mistreat me will likely never have what I have because they aren't capable of looking at themselves, changing and growing into being their best self.

[Riv3rW0lf]

For a long time, I had this idea that I should treat everybody like I would want to be treated. This strategy is a total disappointment and set up for being abused when dealing with a disordered person. I now am somebody I sometimes don't necessarily like for my own protection when with a disordered person in that I use chosen strategies like distancing myself, lying, and manipulation if I need to, and only if I need to.

Yes, a thousand yes to this.

My BPD mother would always tell us : you need to treat others like you want to be treated. Walk in their shoes, understand them and help them, be the little helper. I now realize exactly why she wanted me this way. Even when another child was being mean to me, she would tell me to be empathetic, to see their struggle, to endure. Of course she did, because she needed me to endure her rages as well. She asked me to forgive constantly, but she never forgave. We had to be softer than saints, endure, tolerate, welcome, forgive, be understanding.

It made me terribly weak (strong but not assertive), because this is all I knew how to be. No one taught me to defend myself, and stand for myself when I was being mistreated in school. Else, I'd have defended myself in my home too.

And so, I very agree here Zacchira. It's ok to be someone we would not like when things warrant it, when people are being abusive with us, or unsafe. It's ok to show teeth. And then... Our kindness becomes that much more real, because it becomes a real choice, not our default character. If I can show teeth, it means my kindness is genuine.

[Notwendy]

One aspect of the 12 step groups was to look at some of these ideas from the viewpoint that we can also include ourselves in them. Treat others as you would like to be treated - also how about "Treat yourself how you would like to be treated". If someone was being rude to your friend- how would you take up for your friend?


Also the idea of appealing to the best of someone. If we enable or allow someone to abuse us, then we are enabling them to be an abuser. By having boundaries, we don't enable them to be an abuser.

I also was raised to be a people pleaser and doormat with regards to my parents. This kind of learned behavior had a function in our families as children- it was survival- we were completely dependent on them. It's dysfunctional but it has a function in our own families. It's not OK but it's what we knew to do. When we take this idea into adulthood and other relationships it creates dysfunction in these relationships.

It's the learning how to have these boundaries and stand up for ourselves that can be difficult. We don't want to cross the line into being abusive or hurtful to others and we may make mistakes along the way. There were a few times I also yelled at people- rare times, but it wasn't effective. Yelling at my mother is not effective at all. Sometimes disengaging or speaking up sooner is the better thing to do. My default is to still be passive and give in, but I am getting better at not doing this so much.

[livednlearned]

For a long time, I had this idea that I should treat everybody like I would want to be treated. This strategy is a total disappointment and set up for being abused when dealing with a disordered person.

Another thousand times yes.

My husband and I lived in a new development of 70 homes and people were friendly because it was a new neighborhood.  At a neighborhood event we met this woman who had a service dog. She was gregarious and charismatic, and in addition to some medical issues implied she had cognitive challenges although I didn't ask. I was friendly to her, and she began asking me to help with little things. Inconsequential things at first (help move this sprinkler). Then it was drive her to Costco to push her cart. Then it was help with the kitty litter (upstairs, 3 cats). Then it was come over to reach for this bag on the top shelf. Then to help with fire ants. 

She saw a utility cord crossing the street and called the utility company. It started with her standing on her porch screaming at the top of her lungs about how the cord was going to electrocute a child. There was always always a medical crisis of some sort. She invited us to a birkat habayit (Jewish blessing for the home) and to install their mezuzah and I noticed everyone attending was new.

She would come to my door (I work from home) and ring the bell repeatedly, peering in to see if I was there. I started to hide. It was so hard to end conversations with her, even when I stopped inviting her inside.

One night she saw me outside my home and asked for help with the kitty litter. Her husband was traveling. She couldn't get up the stairs. Later I saw her husband's car pull into the driveway.

If I were medicalized and needed assistance, I would cherish having a friend willing to help out. I am often suckered in by people experiencing medical problems.

My husband pointed out that this woman was always giving us stuff we never asked for. Like a pair of new prescription readers. Or a flashlight. Or reflective dog collar. Most of it was junk or not useful. 

I realize she was setting me up for a transactional relationship. She realized I would be useful to her.

I heard someone say, "She asked if her dog could come over and spend time in my fenced in yard and I said no." These neighbors seemed to understand immediately that this woman was off.

Zachira, I understand what you mean when you say "I now am somebody I sometimes don't necessarily like" because I feel that way now too. People used to say I was guileless and I realize that however I was sending those signals, disordered people see a mark.

[Methuen]

My husband pointed out that this woman was always giving us stuff we never asked for. Like a pair of new prescription readers. Or a flashlight. Or reflective dog collar. Most of it was junk or not useful. 

I realize she was setting me up for a transactional relationship. She realized I would be useful to her.

I heard someone say, "She asked if her dog could come over and spend time in my fenced in yard and I said no." These neighbors seemed to understand immediately that this woman was off.

Zachira, I understand what you mean when you say "I now am somebody I sometimes don't necessarily like" because I feel that way now too. People used to say I was guileless and I realize that however I was sending those signals, disordered people see a mark.

LNL, you just described my mother in your story.  Transactional relationship - thank you for putting the vocabulary to my experience. 

I guarantee that person is my mother - in spirit.  I believe this is how she sequesters all her friends to be caretakers for her - along with her waifyness and their trait of people pleasing.

I think your post might make it easier for me to say "no thanks" next time she does this (whereas "NO" comes quite natural to my H when it comes to mother...).

[livednlearned]

I guarantee that person is my mother - in spirit.  I believe this is how she sequesters all her friends to be caretakers for her - along with her waifyness and their trait of people pleasing.

I think your post might make it easier for me to say "no thanks" next time she does this (whereas "NO" comes quite natural to my H when it comes to mother...).

One thing that helped me dealing with her was to take what I think of as a collaborative approach, although I'm not sure it would work from daughter to BPD mother.

Part of my dilemma was that I did not want to have a discussion about why my behavior was changing. I see now that not everyone deserves that conversation, it takes reciprocity. Another part is that I don't like open conflict, for better or for worse. So it felt like the last resort was to find waif-worthy ways to say no. 

For example, the next time she asked me to clean her kitty litter I said, "I bet there's a high school student in the neighborhood who would jump at the chance to make some money." 

I see, too, why you felt the need to come out of retirement. Most of the ways I said no had to do with working. My schedule is flexible but I made it rigid with her. My older (non BPD) step daughter was living with us when this neighbor came to the door, knocked, rang the door bell, knocked, peered in. She opened the door and said, "LnL is working, even we can't disturb her. We used to be able to but we have new rules to follow."

That's my girl 

SD29 has a BPD mom and BPD sister, and she had a traumatic experience dating someone who had many of the same traits (esp. no boundaries, needy). It was a bit of a bonding moment when she turned this woman away at the door.

We talked once about desensitizing guilt and how that might be necessary when it comes to establishing boundaries when that muscle didn't get exercised in childhood. I think where I have seen improvement is that I feel less guilt after I discover someone has disordered behaviors. What I would like going forward is a radar that delivers a stronger signal.

Where's the test for disordered behavior when it's in waif form. It wasn't like I noticed it the first or second or third or fourth or even fifth red flag. I wandered in and hung out. 

[Notwendy]

That sounds like my mother too. Transactional relationships. She somehow finds people to help her. She has some very sweet neighbor who helps her, but they somehow seem to have a close relationship. I have noticed the neighbor pull back a little since she's moved to assisted living but I did contact her to touch base and they still are in contact. For other people, they seem to be her friend and then- gone. I don't know if BPD mother paints them black or they decide to not have the contact.

I tend to be wary of these interactions with people. If someone is acting very nice to me, I feel guarded. My first thought is "what do they want from me" or "what are they up to?"

I read something about boundaries in a book on relationships with a BPD person. I can't recall the title of the book as it was a long time ago. The last section on the book is about dating again after breaking up that relationship. I read it for curiosity just to see what the book said and it mentioned that boundaries could be too weak or the opposite- too strong. So for some things, perhaps they are too weak and yet, we can also be too defensive sometimes as well.
 
It mentioned that, if we are too guarded or defensive, people with healthy boundaries will sense that and stay away but people who ignore boundaries, and tend to violate them won't - because they don't respect boundaries to begin with. The book then concluded that being too defensive can keep people who respect boundaries away and only those who don't respect them will get past them. Another way perhaps that we may be selecting for these people with our boundaries in other relationships, not just in a romantic situation.

I can relate to this as I think there are people who have tried to become friends with me and if they are very nice to me, I feel a bit uneasy. One one hand, this may be my own radar for these transactional relationships but I also may have kept some genuinely nice people at a distance too.

[Notwendy]

Where's the test for disordered behavior when it's in waif form. It wasn't like I noticed it the first or second or third or fourth or even fifth red flag. I wandered in and hung out.  

Waif is a hard one. One thing I learned in co-dependency work was to pay attention to my own feelings in these interactions. Feeling resentful is a signal that we are doing too much. I think our feelings in these relationships are our red flags. It's not the action- we can be doing the same thing for different people but not feel resentful in each situation.

And feeling "icky"- it's hard to explain but we know when BPD mother is being manipulative through being waify. And emotionally tired- not physically tired.

I  don't want to be so wary that I don't help people. I think it's important to help when we can. It may be that we don't know at first- and choose to help. I'd rather err to the helpful side, but a transactional pattern will become apparent in time. With someone like your BPD SD and my mother, we know this is a pattern. I think our own feelings are clue to when we are doing too much. I think it's different with an elderly person and a young person. With my mother, she genuinely needs the assistance- and for her, waify is manipulative sometimes too. So it's both. But your SD is young and physically able, and you expect her to be more responsible.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I can relate to this as I think there are people who have tried to become friends with me and if they are very nice to me, I feel a bit uneasy. One one hand, this may be my own radar for these transactional relationships but I also may have kept some genuinely nice people at a distance too.

That's the thing though... It's hard to know when we are being too rigid VS when there really is something going on behind the nice facade. It may be that something is going on that wouldn't pour over us too, and that the relationship would be, overall, safe for us, but if we unconsciously pick up on the extra niceties, and feel uneasy, then I have to believe that there really is something going on... Else why would I feel uneasy?

I've met some nice people that don't make me feel uneasy... And I think it has to do with the rate at which the relationship evolves. When it is too soon, too fast, it tends to indicate that the person might be needy? If it's too slow, too cold, then maybe they aren't interested, or don't have time for another friend, which happens a lot as adults. It seems, to me, that there is a healthy evolution to a friendship. And maybe, the overly nice, by going too fast, send a signal that something is up with them... It might be that it wouldn't be unsafe, but it remains off.

I don't know if you kept nice people away... Maybe. I think I did, and still do too... But maybe not, maybe it's just time, and a lack thereof too, and that it had nothing to do with being too rigid, or too defensive... I was told, often, than I came out as " uninterested to pursue relationship" and I think a lot of this has to do with me relying mostly on myself. Someone told me they thought I was nice, they enjoyed speaking with me, had fun with me, but I seemed detached from the relationship. I still put energy into it, from my side, and I was interested in knowing them, which is why the discussions were fun to them, it was often both ways... But they said I seemed: detached and distant. Like I was busy? And that would be why things didn't evolve.

I found this to be the case in most of my relationship... Like... I am the one who needs to check in. But not necessarily because of narcissism, or because they are not interested... My best friend just sent me a nice gesture showing me how much she cares for my wellbeing, but she seldom initiate anything, she just waits for me to initiate. So, I found that if I don't actively pursue a friendship, it just never evolves... But I am rarely being "pursued", maybe because I come across as "detached and good on my own"?

Does that even make sense or am I justifying my own rigidity here?

[Notwendy]

I was told, often, than I came out as " uninterested to pursue relationship" and I think a lot of this has to do with me relying mostly on myself.
But they said I seemed: detached and distant. Like I was busy? And that would be why things didn't evolve.

I found this to be the case in most of my relationship... Like... I am the one who needs to check in. I am rarely being "pursued", maybe because I come across as "detached and good on my own"?

Does that even make sense or am I justifying my own rigidity here?

I have gotten that feedback as well. I think a part of this is that we were on our own in many ways from a very early age and one of these is on our own emotionally.

I noticed by middle school that I felt different from other girls. This wasn't about sexual preferences or identity. I didn't question that.  I had crushes on all the male teen idols at the time. I was just too afraid to get close to a real boy in my class, while all my friends seemed to want to go out with them. I also knew I was a girl but I wasn't sure how to act like one as my female role model was BPD mother.


When I was single, a guy once told me that if I am interested in someone, I would need to be more assertive because I have that "do not approach" signal but on the other hand, I was co-dependent and this attracted men who were not as kind to me as I would have wished for.  So maybe that was the too strong barrier that kept the nicer guys away. But this also protected me as I recognized the big red flag behaviors that I saw in my BPD mother and any "love bombing" would be scary to me.

[Methuen]

This last bit about sending off “stand off” signals is interesting.  

Nobody told me I did this. They didn’t have to. I did it overtly and with intent.  I wasn’t interested.

I rejected my first love interest in grade 4.  In grade 6 I got a phone call from a boy to go to a school dance.  I said no. My mom teased me mercilessly about this boy calling me. For months.  It felt so off. It makes me squeemish to think about her behavior over that.

The teasing by mom continued.  I think I avoided boys to avoid mom’s harassment. I had trust issues.

I don’t see people as they present.   I tend to see through them.  My mom always judged someone’s character by how they looked. “She’s so thin and dresses so nice. She must a nice person. “ This drove me nuts even as a child.  I got to know people and took an interest in them based on their actions, not their words or looks.  As a child I learned not to trust words. When I was 13,, my mother promised me a yellow bedroom when I came home from school that day. . I was so genuinely excited and happy.  I ran home to discover it was pink.  Over and over my mother taught me not to trust.  

I think all this influenced my attitudes towards relationships and an interest in boys.  It was just emotionally safer to be independent.

Looking back, I don’t think I had a clue back then why I wasn’t interested.  I think I had enough drama at home and the whole relationship thing just seemed like more drama. My first bf was grade 12.  My mom wasn’t fond of him but my dad thought he was nice. But I didn’t really start dating until I left home and moved away.  That’s probably not a coincidence, as distance from mom is possibly when I started to feel safe enough to explore relationships. I don’t know what else it would have been.

She wanted me to have boyfriends.  I think not having them was my rebellion.  Yep.  That’s it.

[Notwendy]

Methuen, I could have written the same post. Our mothers are so similar. Mine was overly interested in my dating. This was one of the boundaries I had with my children- do not discuss your relationships with Grandma. She'd ask personal questions. I did not want them to get involved in this.

I didn't see it as rebellion. It was more like a fear of having a boyfriend but when I did, it meant a lot to me. I thought one reason was that the feeling that someone actually liked me for me was a big deal to me. But I also think I kept common sense about it. My 12th grade BF and I went to different colleges, mutually downgraded to friendship. I also had the attitude that if someone didn't want to date me, I'd prefer they leave than to be with me and not want to be. I was (and still am) big on the no game playing thing. I don't do it, don't want anyone else to do that.

Freshman college year was difficult for me socially. I was younger, having graduated as soon as I could to get away from the drama in my FOO. This was the hook up scene and I was terrified of it. The only way I could relate to someone romantically is through knowing them well enough to be able to trust them. This would not work. So I didn't date at all. The summer after, my mother was concerned why. I started to wonder why I felt nothing for these guys. I know the reason why is because when we are feeling scared, that's the predominant feeling. She would encourage me to date, and be disappointed when I didn't.

Later when I was dating, my co-dependent behavior was a turn off for some guys who I was interested in. It wasn't something I did on purpose. It was all I knew to do. I learned though if you behave like a doormat, people will treat you like one. Not at the abuse level thankfully.

By contrast, BPD mother is a magnet for rescuer men while my signal is that I don't want that.

The phrase "see through people" - yes, I notice what someone looks like and then dismiss it. I need to know who they are, as a person and that is the basis of my interest. I think I learned this because, we had to judge very quickly if BPD mother was in a dysregulated mood- so we notice things about people- their facial expressions, tone of voice as well as their actions.

It takes while for me to be able to trust people, and if they break that, I may be able to forgive them but I can't regain that level of trust for them.

[zachira]

Riv3rWOlf,
I have pondered what you said about being able to show our teeth also means our kindness is genuine. It makes me think about how disordered people have a public image that they try to sell to everyone which cannot be maintained indefinitely, thus close family members and long term acquaintances usually get to eventually see the ugliness behind the facade.
I am now in a different stage of healing. I want to focus more on what I have to change about myself than on the red flags of disordered people. I find it takes tremendous courage for me to get up every day and be the kind of person who attracts genuinely kind people and repels the disordered people. As I advance through the healing stages, I find myself attracting more and more of the right people and less of the disordered people. These last few years, I have been really cleaning house, as far as allowing disordered people into my inner circle, while starting to feel more worthy of having genuinely kind people as my friends. One of my challenges for a long time was feeling bored with people who were high functioning who did not have any drama that I could listen to or help them with. My challenges now include: Not making any effort to explain why I am treating disordered people in the ways I do to protect myself, as there is zero reciprocity with them. To be a better friend to those who I really do care about.To a certain extent still want to rescue people though I have made great progress with this tendency.  I have avoidant attachment so close relationships are challenging for me, as I tend to isolate myself too much. Too much isolation on my part makes me feel desperate for company and way too friendly to the wrong kind of people. The pandemic is over as much as it can be, though I have made changes to my life that are going to be permanent. I no longer get cheap massages where there is a heavy trafffic of employess and clients. I cut my own hair. It is time to get out of the house and back to seeing people I care about!  I also need to make it a bigger priority to find a safer place to get massages.