speaking the truth, but to no effect

[jaded7]

Hi All,

Just sharing some of my journaling this morning. If you've followed any of my posts you'll know that I've been really suffering, for almost 3 years now. Struggling to make sense of things that happened, things she said, inconsistencies and double standards, horrible verbal abuse (name-calling, put downs, belittling, mocking, mimicking- essentially all the Patricia Evans verbal abuse list), the ghosting, the blaming...when all I wanted to do is be there for her, support her, be together and share our lives.

This morning I was journaling and really felt, really recognized, how similar her 'love' behavior was to my mother. How eerily similar her dismissive tone and reserved (afraid to be vulnerable) way of being was to my own mother. I spent my entire childhood feeling I was a 'bad' boy, and I distinctly remember thinking to myself "well, no one is going to support me and show up to my stuff, no one is going to see me for who I am, I can never be enough or do anything right...so I'm just going to not need anyone and be a solitary person.". I remember thinking this.

Then I was abused by a priest when I was 11, really sent into his orbit by my very religious family, who didn't seem to care or even recognize that he was a very odd person who was spending way too much time alone, at his distant mobile home, with the altar boys and taking them out to dinner.

So I've had attachment issues and especially when I have been sexual with a person. Because of these I have been very careful, even avoiding, about relationships and sex. They are both really loaded for me. I even looked down on 'love' for many years of my life.

Then I met her, after taking 10 years off dating. I wasn't looking for a relationship, wasn't on dating apps, and was very happy living my life with many friends and a business that kept me super busy.

Within 2-3 dates she sat me down for a 'talk'. "What are we doing here, what are your intentions? Because I don't need another coffee buddy, I have plenty of friends to have coffee with, and I don't need to be driving across town for that. Do you want to pursue a romantic relationship or not?"

Mind you, we had never even gone out for a coffee, we had gone on 2 or 3 regular dates and things were progressing with more frequent calls, texts, etc. I was interested in keeping on this path, and I have no idea why she was thinking that I just wanted to be coffee friends. In any case, I said yes...let's pursue a relationship.

Well, within 4 months or so the put downs, the annoyed tone, the angry outbursts out of nowhere began. I began to fear having sex with her since she would make me feel like an object- pointing at me to 'get those clothes off, what are you doing", snapping at me during sex, getting annoyed at me during sex...and this was me doing and being the exact same as I had always been, to which she had told me "I told my friend that it was the best sex I've had in 15 years".

You can read all the other threads if you want, but things just kept getting more and more and more confusing to me. I'm a really good empath and observer, a great listener, quite smart...and I couldn't figure out where this stuff was coming from. SOO confused at her anger, her double standards, her accusations and 'stories' about me that weren't true.

I tried to talk with her, from a loving compasionate place. And in hindsight, I'm proud of myself for bringing these things up in a relational, healthy way, without judgement or accusations. I said all of the following to her at different times:

-you have these stories in your head about me that aren't true, then you react to them
-honey, when we have a disagreement you seem to need to win, and I want you to know that's not my goal. I just want to be seen and heard.
-when you don't return my calls or texts for days or even a week at a time, it's hurtful and dehumanizing and confusing, especially when you say you love me
-your behavior toward me is intermittent reinforcement
- your very critical of me, do you know that? do you see that I'm not critical of you (to which she replied, "I guess your a better person than me")
-you accuse me of and yell at me about for things that YOU are actually doing ("Like WHAT!"...I then gently explained some things, which she deflected, invalidated, and became very angry and then accused me of MORE things I don't do that she does!)
-you're treatment of me is really confusing
-I never said/did this thing you say I did
-but we had plans to spend the weekend at my place, you made me create a calendar because you said I cancelled plans and ruined a summer because I didn't keep a Google calendar (I never cancelled anything) and so we met and planned out the summer, we put this weekend on the calendar together...and now you don't remember it? (or also, she said she saw it but thought it was only during the day, then she also said didn't see it)
-remember you told me that your family says you 'argue like a lawyer'?
-_______ this is dangerous, please just drive home (when she violently pulled off a two lane highway in the middle of the mountains, at dusk in the rain, and threatened to make me walk home. I had no idea of where we were)
-you expect me to read your mind; I can't do what you want if you don't tell me what you need or want; mind reading expectations are the death of a relationship ______
-________ it's the yelling. I really can't take the yelling. I don't know why you have to yell at me
-we've been over this 4 times now, and 4 times I've told you what you are saying about what I did is not true. Why do you do that? You keep changing the story of what happened. ("How do you know?" Ummm...I looked at the phone records to see what time I called you, it was around 11 or noon, not the 5pm you keep saying)
- you set a rule for taking a 'time out' in an argument, I agreed wholeheartedly to it because it's a great tool. During an argument you called for a time out, I happily agreed (saying "it's important to me that we respect our word, and each other, so yes we can have a timeout now) and then you immediately started in on me again. I pointed THAT out, and she hung up on me.
-you just showed up at my work when I told you I would call you when I was done having dinner with clients. I told you this 3 times, and still you just showed up and got mad at me for 'taking' you to a brewpub for dinner, when I told you 4 hours earlier I would go to that brewpub for dinner with clients and call you after. Days later when I kindly asked her to let me be and I'll contact her later in the week, please respect this request, she texted back (breaking the boundary) in 10 seconds saying "none of this would have happened (yelling at me and putting me down until 3 in the morning) if you had told me you were going to the brewpub for dinner"

I said all of these things to her. Before I knew anything at all about cluster b or BPD. It's remarkable that I saw these things, recognized they were very strange, and tried to point them out. The goal was to have a harmonious relationship, to love each other better. I said them very relationally, very well done if I do say so myself. But I was not clear on BPD and Cluster B...I thought I could talk these things out.

None of this 'worked'.
-

[SinisterComplex]

Logic and reasoning does not work with warped minds. It seems normal, rational, and logical to you. However, to the other it is sending a very different message.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3286221/

I know this is very hard, but understand that the normal methods neurotypicals deploy do the opposite of what is intended.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[jaded7]

Logic and reasoning does not work with warped minds. It seems normal, rational, and logical to you. However, to the other it is sending a very different message.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3286221/

I know this is very hard, but understand that the normal methods neurotypicals deploy do the opposite of what is intended.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

Thanks SC.

Holy cow, actual structural and functional brain differences? What the...?

As my therapist told me about the above list of things I said to her, I did these things almost perfectly. She told me that I could not have approached these things better than I did, very relational...vulnerable...kind...open to building something together.

None of it worked. All of it just produced more pushback, more rearranging of the facts, more circular arguments, more diversion and deflection and blame. And anger. Always anger, often out of nowhere. For the sake of new people to the board (who, like me a couple years ago, might benefit from seeing situations almost identical in others) here's an example of anger out of nowhere...

Going camping Monday mid-day, had it planned for months (in fact, on the very same Google calendar from above that she shamed me into putting together that had the weekend at my place above on it, the one she 'didn't see', 'thought it was only during day' (she didn't come to my place during any day that weekend).

I took off 3 days of work at my business, which required arranging all kinds of people to come in and cover for me, at great cost.

I call her on Sunday around 11 or 12, after my work. She'd been rather distant the previous few days, non-communicative, we hadn't even talked about the camping trip...I was a little confused already.

I say

"hey honey, I know you have a list of food items you like to bring camping, can you send me the list and I'll go to the store and get the items" Thinking I'll save her the trip and the money, especially because she always complained about women always having to the work and emotional labor, etc. And she's very particular about food (and loading dishwashers, and many many other things)

Long pause, gruff 'no' or something like that. pause.

me: "_________, is there something wrong?"

her: "YOU DON'T WANT TO GO GROCERY SHOPPING. YOUR'E JUST TRYING TO COVER YOUR ASS!"

shocked pause

me: "ummm, I really do want to go grocery shopping, just send me the list and I'll do it"

her:"OH YEAH. YOUR WORTHLESS IN A GROCERY STORE AND I'D HAVE TO SPEND MORE TIME FIXING WHAT YOU DID THAN IF I JUST DID IT MYSELF!"

me: "ummmm...geez, I've never been yelled at for offering to do something"

her: "WHAT DO YOU WANT, COOKIES AND MILK FOR ASKING?"

me: "no, I just wanted to help out _______. How about I come pick you up and we go to the store, you can pick out the right items and I can pay for them?"

her: "YOU JUST WANT TO SEE ME!"

me: "well...ummm...of course I'd like to see you..."

her: "AND YOUR A SH*TTY DRIVER AND I'M NEVER RIDING WITH YOU AGAIN!"

me: "ummmm...ok"

her: "I already went to the grocery store on Thursday night!"

me: "ok...I didn't know that. How was I supposed to know that? If you wanted help then why didn't you ask? And why are you just telling me now after all that?"

[capecodling]

Just sharing some of my journaling this morning. If you've followed any of my posts you'll know that I've been really suffering, for almost 3 years now. Struggling to make sense of things that happened, things she said, inconsistencies and double standards, horrible verbal abuse (name-calling, put downs, belittling, mocking, mimicking- essentially all the Patricia Evans verbal abuse list), the ghosting, the blaming...when all I wanted to do is be there for her, support her, be together and share our lives.

well, you certainly followed a very reasonable set of actions, and clearly you were being driven by the intentions, that you stated above, trying to build a life with her. But you have something that she lacks, that is self awareness. She would probably say that she was also trying to build a life with you, but I would guess she is not aware of how her illness was driving her to act so irrationally and crazy. I am amazed that you did not seem to become infected by her mental illness. I know with my BPD relationships, by the end, I was almost as crazy as they were. I have read articles about how a BPD can convert her partner  (even someone who starts out mentally healthy) into a transient narcissist, another words , they temporally make you just as crazy as them. It doesn’t sound like that was the case with you.

[jaded7]

well, you certainly followed a very reasonable set of actions, and clearly you were being driven by the intentions, that you stated above, trying to build a life with her. But you have something that she lacks, that is self awareness. She would probably say that she was also trying to build a life with you, but I would guess she is not aware of how her illness was driving her to act so irrationally and crazy. I am amazed that you did not seem to become infected by her mental illness. I know with my BPD relationships, by the end, I was almost as crazy as they were. I have read articles about how a BPD can convert her partner  (even someone who starts out mentally healthy) into a transient narcissist, another words , they temporally make you just as crazy as them. It doesn’t sound like that was the case with you.

Cape...that is a really fascinating observation, and I really appreciate it. And you are correct, I never turned into someone that yelled, lied, put down, mocked, snapped, belittled, ghosted, made fun of...her. Never.

Even in the midst of these crazy making conversations- and the above exchange is verbatim, I have a memory like you wouldn't believe (early in the relationship she told me "she was worried about my memory, you forget things ______. I'm worried." Note that is one of the things abusive controlling people say early in a relationship to get you questioning yourself)- I never once lost it and did back to her what she did to me.

I don't know if you meant it as nice, but I feel it as nice. thank you.

Now, I have a friend who's divorcing a diagnosed BPD wife, who was extremely physically violent. She punched him in the face, kicked him with her full strength in the belly when he was lounging on a low bed, threw an heavy ashtray across the dinner table at him, bit his arm down to the muscle- and he got very angry at her, yelled at her, called her names in the midst of these things.

I can say I never did that, and I'm proud of it.

[BPDEnjoyer]

I read your journal here.  You do not say what you did to keep her accountable for her behaviors that hurt you other than telling her so.  What did you do to keep her accountable for each of those behaviors?

[jaded7]

I read your journal here.  You do not say what you did to keep her accountable for her behaviors that hurt you other than telling her so.  What did you do to keep her accountable for each of those behaviors?

You mean other than asking her as an adult and talking to her as adult about all the below? I think this is trying to hold someone accountable for the hurtful things they are doing. Expressing it to them.

I didn't say things like "if you continue to do this, I will end our relationship". "If you call me names, I will end our relationship." "I will not continue talking on the phone if you are yelling at me and putting me down." No, I did not do those things. Perhaps I should have. I didn't know it was required to do these things in a loving relationship. That might be my issue.

I tried to talk with her, from a loving compasionate place. And in hindsight, I'm proud of myself for bringing these things up in a relational, healthy way, without judgement or accusations. I said all of the following to her at different times:

-you have these stories in your head about me that aren't true, then you react to them
-honey, when we have a disagreement you seem to need to win, and I want you to know that's not my goal. I just want to be seen and heard.
-when you don't return my calls or texts for days or even a week at a time, it's hurtful and dehumanizing and confusing, especially when you say you love me
-your behavior toward me is intermittent reinforcement
- your very critical of me, do you know that? do you see that I'm not critical of you (to which she replied, "I guess your a better person than me")
-you accuse me of and yell at me about for things that YOU are actually doing ("Like WHAT!"...I then gently explained some things, which she deflected, invalidated, and became very angry and then accused me of MORE things I don't do that she does!)
-you're treatment of me is really confusing
-I never said/did this thing you say I did
-but we had plans to spend the weekend at my place, you made me create a calendar because you said I cancelled plans and ruined a summer because I didn't keep a Google calendar (I never cancelled anything) and so we met and planned out the summer, we put this weekend on the calendar together...and now you don't remember it? (or also, she said she saw it but thought it was only during the day, then she also said didn't see it)
-remember you told me that your family says you 'argue like a lawyer'?
-_______ this is dangerous, please just drive home (when she violently pulled off a two lane highway in the middle of the mountains, at dusk in the rain, and threatened to make me walk home. I had no idea of where we were)
-you expect me to read your mind; I can't do what you want if you don't tell me what you need or want; mind reading expectations are the death of a relationship ______
-________ it's the yelling. I really can't take the yelling. I don't know why you have to yell at me
-we've been over this 4 times now, and 4 times I've told you what you are saying about what I did is not true. Why do you do that? You keep changing the story of what happened. ("How do you know?" Ummm...I looked at the phone records to see what time I called you, it was around 11 or noon, not the 5pm you keep saying)
- you set a rule for taking a 'time out' in an argument, I agreed wholeheartedly to it because it's a great tool. During an argument you called for a time out, I happily agreed (saying "it's important to me that we respect our word, and each other, so yes we can have a timeout now) and then you immediately started in on me again. I pointed THAT out, and she hung up on me.
-you just showed up at my work when I told you I would call you when I was done having dinner with clients. I told you this 3 times, and still you just showed up and got mad at me for 'taking' you to a brewpub for dinner, when I told you 4 hours earlier I would go to that brewpub for dinner with clients and call you after. Days later when I kindly asked her to let me be and I'll contact her later in the week, please respect this request, she texted back (breaking the boundary) in 10 seconds saying "none of this would have happened (yelling at me and putting me down until 3 in the morning) if you had told me you were going to the brewpub for dinner"

I said all of these things to her. Before I knew anything at all about cluster b or BPD. It's remarkable that I saw these things, recognized they were very strange, and tried to point them out. The goal was to have a harmonious relationship, to love each other better. I said them very relationally, very well done if I do say so myself. But I was not clear on BPD and Cluster B...I thought I could talk these things out.

None of this 'worked'.

As in consequences?