Reminder to Me Not to Make Assumptions

[Teabunny]

Hi everyone,
I've been doing much better since about 2 years ago when I read Stop Walking on Eggshells, joined this forum, got lots of great support and put in place communication boundaries with my BPD mom. It's also taught me a lot about my (codependent/enabling) dad and Karpan triangle dynamic, and other topics. Thank you everyone!

Lesson learned that I wanted to share: I should not assume there are only a couple of possible reasons for silence in a BPD family - it may be a 3rd or 4th reason I can't foresee.

I had assumed that the reason my dad only responded to 1 out of 22 email updates I sent both parents in about 2.5 years was that either he didn't feel it was important to respond, or mom was preventing him (which he's told me she does, but he has a work computer & smart phone with email capabilities, and I use his personal email). His story is that mom will read aloud my email updates and he waits for her to tell him I've emailed (often I include video, photos of a trip etc). Mom responds most of the time to these emails, unless they contain super positive life events like a wedding anniversary vacation or work achievement. Her story is that she tells dad about my emails to remind him to check email, but he never wants to. I know she's seen at least as many as she's replied to. I never fully 100% believe either parent, but dad is less outside reality than mom.

The actual reason my dad has only responded once appears to be (we can never know for certain in a BPD family, right?) that dad had no idea I was emailing these other 21 times, because he checks email on his phone and hadn't been getting any notifications. He changed a setting yesterday, and suddenly about 8 of my past email updates appeared. He's responded to every email he says he got, which was nice. He seemed amazed that he didn't know these updates (some were huge life events), and it sounded sincere, so (probably) mom had not actually been telling dad about my update emails.

It wasn't fun feeling "ignored" via email, but, before I started sending these updates I realized that I could not be invested in their response, and reminded myself that I was sending updates because I feel good about myself when I try to let them know I'm doing OK, as opposed to "no contact" which felt too extreme in my context.

I also call once or twice per year to check in with both of them (mom is "upset" by me talking to dad without her on the call and it got so ridiculous trying to arrange a time when she was stable that I had to limit calls. I also mail gifts and cards to their house, and occasionally mail dad's office a card for father's day or a birthday present (these are likely to upset mom if she saw them arrive at their home, and then she abuses dad worse). But I just learned from the post office that these have been "undeliverable as addressed" meaning there was an error in the name/address written; however, dad verified it was correct when I sent him a photo of the envelope. He claims he will speak to the post office about it.

My conclusion: the post office, my BPD mother, and my father not being proactive with his emails (all 3) have stopped dad receiving almost everything I've sent in 2.5 years. I was surprised! I learned that if dad isn't responding to some major update or birthday gift, I should text him to see if he even got it. (If he also doesn't reply to that text, I'm not responsible for trying further and will move on.)

This only became a problem when I put in place communication boundaries because of mom's behavior. But wow, it took a long time to fix that glitch! I hope none of you are struggling with similar issues, but if you are, I hope it helps to think of more than just a couple possibilities that might be contributing to the problem.

Does anyone have a different interpretation of this situation that I may not be seeing?

[Riv3rW0lf]

Hi Teabunny !

It reminds me of when my stepfather (my mother's boyfriend whom I've known since I was 9yo and did play a significant role in shaping who I've become) "deleted" me from his Facebook.

It was after things had gotten ugly with my mother, so I assumed it was some kind of payback. I really thought it was a message. But it turned out after that he truly had a Facebook problem that led him to lose his access to his account and so he had to open another one he used, losing his contacts in the process...

But then, while this truly happened, it still doesn't explain how this second account could have been opened for so many weeks, have all his contacts from before or almost, even very distant relatives...and not me. Both my brothers. But not me. My mother said she just hadn't had the time yet to add me back... But somehow had the time to had all these other distant relatives?

So ... Some of it was real problem, but some of it was also her trying to hurt me... Only the hurting was deniable if someone asked and one of my brother did gaslight me about it.. "buying" into my mother's story.

I guess what I am coming to is that : sometimes it's only notifications and coincidences, but at the same time, if someone is truly proactive in hearing from someone else, they might fix the issue faster. But again, not everyone is technology savvy either, so you would know more if it truly is ONLY due to those problems, or if there is, like in my case, a mix of problems AND intent. I am a bit cynical now to be honest, and I keep my expectations low. But I still like giving the benefit of the doubt...

I do wish for you that it truly is only technological issues and coincidences, and I do believe it is possible. I guess in the end though, what matters, is that you now have access to your father and he started answering you actively, which might be a relief for you? It helps to have a somewhat healthy relationship with at least one parent. My father isn't perfect, but I am glad he isn't abusive and can show, at times, some kind of love and interest in who I became! So I am happy you are now getting that from your father. I was happy to read that you are doing much better.

[Teabunny]

Thanks Riv3rW0lf!
It's nice to hear from you. Thanks for sharing that social media story! It can be hard to figure out the truth with things like that.

I believe my situation is a mix of technology / postal issues and intent, mostly my mother's intent not to tell dad my updates. It'll provide more data if dad does proactively go talk to the post office about the last two years of my mail he hasn't received.

I decided since it wasn't my intention to only communicate updates to mom, and that's what had accidentally been happening, I could make a small extra effort (text once) to be sure dad received updates too. It's ironic that these boundaries (new communication habits) were put in place to minimize my mother's BPD behavior towards me, but they ended up preventing dad from knowing about my life - a word of warning for anyone starting to put boundaries in place! LOL

[Notwendy]

My parents shared a personal email address. I had assumed I had a one on one relationship with my father ( each parent, actually- as each one of them was a person) but no, they may as well have been one person.

As a parent myself, I would share pertinent information about my child with my H. But my H and I have our own emails and phones. If a child speaks to one of us, or emails one of us, then, they are speaking to that person.

With my parents, my mother listened in on my calls with my father and read ( maybe even answered) my emails to him. With her ( and others as well, looking at the relationship board)- there's friction over attention to other family members. I don't think adult children are exempt from this. When my father got ill, BPD mother was angry at me and that made it difficult for my father to have a relationship with me.

Here's my take on your situation from my own experience. Your father is a grown adult who surely knows how to use email. His communication with you is being controlled by your BPD mother, and he's walking on eggshells with her. She may be deleting his emails or supervising when he contacts you. There were times I would call my father, my mother would pick up on the other line (land line) and he'd hang up.

Any communication you send to your father is probably going to be shared with your mother. Since your father has a work email, I'd consider trying that instead but I wouldn't be surprised if he shared that password with your mother as well.

What you see with your parents is similar to what happened when I began to have boundaries with BPD mother. This "broke" the familiar family pattern where we tolerated her behavior and complied with her. Families exist in a pattern too and when one family member changes their part, the others feel uncomfortable. They will first try to get the family member back into the fold with their familiar behavior, but if this doesn't work, they may distance themselves from that family member and reconfigure their position of comfort.

I was naive about this when I had boundaries with BPD mother. I assumed my father would understand. I thought his relationship with me would be strong enough and learned though, that if BPD mother was angry at me, he'd step in to "rescue" her and that her feelings prevailed. Most importantly- do not take this personally in terms of you- you didn't do anything wrong. It's the dynamics in your family that are disordered. On your part, since you value the relationship- keep trying- use his work email address. Keep that door open for him to communicate with you when he can.

[Teabunny]

Notwendy,

You describe the BPD dynamics perfectly! It's very true.

In my case, I was so eager to assume everything was because of BPD that I didn't catch the issue with the postal service (surely mom has no power over the mail at dad's office?) and didn't know dad wasn't receiving email updates at his personal email and he was unaware he wasn't receiving them. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now, unless he doesn't actually follow up with the post office or stops emailing.

Since I send the same update email to both parents' emails, it's no problem if dad shows all of them to mom. I only send about one email update/month unless there's big news.

Currently, it's way cool to see dad's thoughts on the past 2.5 years of things that happened in my life. That alone is precious, although I'm guarded.

Self-parenting opportunity here:
Imagining I had a child and was a parent (situation in reverse) I would be shocked that my spouse never told me any of these updates, and that the post office had not delivered my mail, and that I missed out on my wonderful adult child's life for a large span of time primarily because I failed to check email settings.

So I would say something my dad probably isn't capable of saying:

"Honey, I'm so sorry I didn't know what was going on in your life. That must have felt terrible to you to have only received one response from your father in YEARS? You probably feel like I'm not interested in your life, and that's my fault. I should've made sure my phone email settings were accurate LONG ago. I was so worried all this time when I thought I wasn't hearing from you, that I'm relieved you were OK and thriving. [this thing, that thing, etc] are all really cool! I'm happy for you. And I'm also sorry that I allow your mom to control me so much. It was wrong of your mom to hide this information from me, that's not something a healthy parent does and if you find yourself in a relationship where someone is doing that to you, it's not OK. If I had a strong healthy marriage, I would never have missed so much of your life, and that's not your fault. I love you and am so excited to see all these photos, videos and gifts from the past couple years that I missed out on. Now that I know about these issues, I'm going to take responsibility for making sure I receive your emails and mail, and respond when I can. Thank you for caring and keeping in touch. You are a wonderful daughter, especially to have kept reaching out when all you got was silence in return. You didn't deserve that, and I'm sorry."

[Teabunny]

I forgot to mention that my parents have vastly different writing styles and other evidence I use to determine if it's mom responding (even veiled as though dad were responding) or dad actually responding. I don't think mom is lucid enough to effectively imitate his writing. I hope I'm not wrong.

Parent one: That's great honey, what job are you applying for and is it in your area?
Parent two: Wht job is waitng for ? Go od luck !

Would you believe parent two is actually dad?  He's always struggled to type, but has been using email for decades. It must be hard for him to respond to 21 or so emails from the past couple of years, and I appreciate his effort. If only BPD dynamics didn't make phone calls difficult, I'd just do calls. But I tried the heck out of making calls work, and won't try anymore except like I said, a couple times/year.

[Notwendy]

I understand wishing to see that kind of response from your father.

What is interesting is that, some of the things my mother says sounds a lot like my father. This is them talking. I don't know if she's mirroring him or that he just adopted her opinions.

I think at one point, my father just acquiesced to my mother's control. I think he did care about me but BPD mother controlled our relationship. I think the best you can do is keep communication open with your father on your part. The rest, that's between your parents. It's unfortunate that it's this way but it's the dynamics between them.

[Teabunny]

Update:  I guess I'm not coping with my parents' dynamic as well as I had hoped.

What y'all have said is true:

sometimes it's only notifications and coincidences, but at the same time, if someone is truly proactive in hearing from someone else, they might fix the issue faster.

Your father is a grown adult who surely knows how to use email.

I think the best you can do is keep communication open with your father on your part. The rest, that's between your parents.

I checked some past logs and saw that even before putting up mild communication boundaries with mom, dad was mostly silent or unresponsive to (at times) all forms of communication. Not a new problem, as I had thought last week. He's sometimes said he wishes he could hear from me more often, always feels better when he's heard I'm doing well, etc but the painful truth is what you've been trying to tell me. Dad doesn't check for these updates. He can't be emotionally available or involved in his only child's life, due to BPD mother and his own choices about that. He says he's interested in updates, but cannot act interested.

And because I bonded with dad / attached as a young child, when I couldn't with mom because she's not as safe, it's extra damaging because I tend to see dad as more stable, rational, safer and loving. I make excuses for his behavior. The recent issue with his email/post office created in me feelings of hope that dad wanted those updates, but now, knowing he chose this (even when he had a different phone, etc) I've felt confusion, despair, anger, grief...

Besides my go-to mantra, "send updates regularly because I believe in doing that for my peace of mind; the rest is up to them" how do I protect myself from my non-BPD parent? I'm better at protecting myself from my BPD mom who acts like a raging lunatic sometimes. But I think actually the non-BPD parent, disguised as a caring dad, is more hurtful.

When I called him last week to see why his father's day card was returned to me by the post office, I asked dad if Stop Walking on Eggshells, which I mailed to his office two years ago, helped him cope with mom. He said mom was just sensitive right now, and she needed to get off her current meds so she could "get back to normal." Dad's not in touch with reality. Good to know, I guess. His denial is part of that BPD dynamic.

Ideas for getting through this pain and preventing it happening again the next time I have hope that dad cares about me and wants to know about my life when he can't act interested? Thank you.

[Notwendy]

Update:  I guess I'm not coping with my parents' dynamic as well as I had hoped.

The painful truth is what you've been trying to tell me. Dad doesn't check for these updates. He can't be emotionally available or involved in his only child's life, due to BPD mother and his own choices about that.

And because I bonded with dad / attached as a young child, when I couldn't with mom because she's not as safe, it's extra damaging because I tend to see dad as more stable, rational, safer and loving. I make excuses for his behavior. The recent issue with his email/post office created in me feelings of hope that dad wanted those updates, but now, knowing he chose this (even when he had a different phone, etc) I've felt confusion, despair, anger, grief...

How do I protect myself from my non-BPD parent? I'm better at protecting myself from my BPD mom who acts like a raging lunatic sometimes. But I think actually the non-BPD parent, disguised as a caring dad, is more hurtful.

 I have hope that dad cares about me and wants to know about my life when he can't act interested? Thank you.

Teabunny- you have described what has been a more difficult situation for me as well. I also bonded more with my father than with my BPD mother. One one hand, he did act as if he cared about me, but he'd also dismiss the relationship for the sake of the relationship with my BPD mother. It's this inconsistency that has made me wonder what I might have meant to him.

For me, my best understanding of this came from working on my own co-dependent tendencies. Growing up, I could see that my mother's behavior wasn't desirable. But Dad- he had many good qualities as a role model. He was also co-dependent. I didn't recognize this behavior as a possible issue because it was normalized, even desirable, to be co-dependent and enabling with BPD mother. This was our "normal" growing up, but it caused issues for me in other relationships, so when I worked on this for myself, it helped me to understand what my father was doing- not that it was OK to do that but to see this as being about him, not me.

I had perceived my father as the "normal" one in the relationship- and a sort of victim of my BPD mother's behavior but this relationship was a function of the two of them. They matched in a way- her BPD and his co-dependency.

I think people tend to misinterpret the term, because the person who is more dependent is my mother. Dad was the functional one- he earned the income, did the caretaking and the parenting. Yet, it was BPD mother's feelings - that he seemed submissive to. She was in control.

I learned to see this through the addiction model. This took some work as neither Dad nor I had any addiction to alcohol or substance. Yet, all addictions have a common source and that is escaping from hurtful feelings and they feel uncontrollable and they use something to that effect. An alcoholic or drug addict uses alcohol or drugs. People who are codependent "use" people to that effect. That is the foundation of enabling- it appears that the person is being caring- but they are managing their own feelings. The pattern is- BPD mother feels upset. That is uncomfortable for my father, so he gives in to managing her discomfort which also eases his own.

We know that people who are addicted to drugs or alcohol can damage their relationships, but we also know that in the moment, they may feel overcome by their wanting to drink or take the drug due to intolerable feelings. It took some time for me in 12 step groups to understand this, and see the kind of work it takes for people to stop an addiction. For Dad, that "drug" was right there and constantly in need of him to manage her, and he became addicted to that in a way. Yes, he may have cared for us kids too, but BPD mother was the focus of his attention, so much that I don't think he had the emotional availability for much else.

I understand your feelings Teabunny- I have felt a mix of feelings too- from grief, to gratitude for him being a parent to me, to anger and confusion too. He was logical and accomplished in so many other ways, it just didn't make sense. BPD mother's behavior is consistent with her being dysfunctional. But then, I sat in 12 step groups with other accomplished and competent people who were also dealing with co-dependency or addictions.

So, yes, my feeling are varied, and I don't always know what to make of my relationship with my father but it has helped to see this as less personal. We are not less deserving of our parents' love and attention. You are not less deserving of it. Your father is in a difficult situation as he lives with your mother. This doesn't make it OK for him to not pay attention to your efforts to keep in touch, but it's because of the dynamics between your parents, not anything on your part.

[Teabunny]

Hi everyone!
It's about one year later, and I thought I would check in to report that my father hasn't responded to my email letters for about a year now. Dad claimed last year that his phone settings and the post office mistakes caused him to not receive anything from me, and once he realized it, he did respond to many of the 20+ email updates / photos of anniversary trips or life events which I had sent in recent years. But again, he's been silent.

I believe you all were right and it's more his choice than technology glitches.

Both my BPD mom and my dad have ignored all my attempts to contact them since mid-August.

I am bothered by two months of silence, especially since I know they aren't unavailable or seriously ill because they were interviewed by their local newspaper recently.

Like many of you have said, they're grown adults capable of managing their own email accounts or being actively involved in my life if they'd wanted. I don't know why they've ignored me (it could have nothing to do with me but rather something in their own life). But I wish their silences did not cause me to self-doubt and feel fear, sadness, anger and anxiety! That's exactly what the silent treatment is designed to do to us, and while I have researched how to cope, distracting myself with friends, fun and work doesn't make me feel any better.

As many of you will understand, the one great thing about this is that contact with them brings me down (they tend to focus on the negatives in life) so it's a silver lining to enjoy their lack of communication!

[Notwendy]

I agree- silence is difficult- to not know why, or if there's a misunderstanding- to have the chance to explain. I think we tend to assume there must be a reason, something we might be able to understand, but also, it's possible that it's got nothing to do with you.

Parents cutting contact with children and vice versa are difficult because it's unnatural. If it happens, we assume there must be a reason- abuse, criminal activity, addiction. But with a disordered person, there may be no logical reason for this.

This is also why it's so hard for you to close this chapter and just move on. These are your parents and even if they are disordered, it's hard to let this go. I understand the feeling of self doubt, and anxiety. Our parents are a root of our identity. When my father passed away and my parents were angry at the time- I felt a sense of this too- who are my parents? How can a parent just "discard" a child and if they can do this- what was the relationship anyway?

We want to be able to understand but disordered thinking doesn't make sense. I think you can say you tried all you can and if they want to make contact- it's on them to do it now. 

[zachira]

By setting healthier boundaries with your disordered parents, you are indirectly forcing them to make changes, which is very uncomfortable for them, as the last thing they are comfortable doing is taking any kind of responsibility for how badly they treat you. Most of my disordered family members have gone silent on me, after I refused to put up with their abuse of me and other family scapegoats. In dysfunctional families, roles are rigidly enforced. The silent treatment is often the last resort in trying to force the ones who object to being mistreated back into the fold.

[Teabunny]

Thank you Notwendy and zachira! That's a good point about silences arising sometimes from setting boundaries. I have no idea what their reasons may be, if anything. I decided not to send them updates anymore. It was something I valued doing as a daughter to make sure nobody worried, but it's been doing me more harm than good in the last 3-4 years.

[Teabunny]

Frameworthy Nonsense from mom's rant in reply to me saying I won't be sending email updates because neither parent had been replying (below quotes). Tempted to frame one on the wall to remind myself that her intent is to cause harm, and my decision not to contact my parents is a healthy choice! It's a sad situation but also kinda funny, if you know what I mean.

First and foremost I don’t appreciate your remark about me not sending an email since August. It was August 19, to be exact when I sent you an email. [It was actually the 16th, but not a big difference]

All I can say to that is shame on you [my name]. Life is way too short to be bothered by petty things like worrying about responding to your email right away or in a month [it was two months, actually, but even one month...!]

I am your mother and I will always cherish those precious happy memories we made, especially those with no judgements attached to them and the respect a mother deserves.

[Teabunny]

Well, this is embarrassing, but I could not find any way on this forum to edit or delete my recent post to remove my real name. I thought "Excerpt" may show original text, like an editing feature, but it simply copied my post. There is no visible delete, even within 30 minutes of making a post. I tried reporting my mistake to the moderator, but it wasn't allowed because I created this topic thread and one can't report one's own post. I'm not sure what to try next.

[Notwendy]

No worries. Sometimes I post and see typos. I miss the edit function. I think it was removed for technical difficulties.

That message is classic. (classic narcisistic) - blaming you for wanting to hear from her. It's hurtful because it's your mother but it seems like a typical reaction.

I have a memory of this kind of thing. I don't remember all incidents but if something happened that seemed really odd to me, then I do.

I was a teen and came home from school early. I didn't know where my mother was and also she didn't expect anyone home. She didn't hear me come in. I just went to my room, as usual. When I opened the door, my mother was there. She had her back to me and she was looking through my desk and dresser drawers- snooping in my room. I was shocked and she was surprised. She started yelling at me- how dare you come in this room and interrupt me-- blaming me for walking into my own room while she was snooping in there? I think I just stood there and didn't know what to say.

The language of your mother's email is similar. "Shame on you for wanting to hear back from me. I am your mother!!"

To get this to a formula- in each scenario- we are feeling hurt or that a common decency/boundary has been broken. If we email someone, we want a response. If we have personal things in our room, we don't want someone snooping in them (I understand the exception- if a parent thinks their teen has drugs or something dangerous in their room, then they would have reason to look but this wasn't what was going on- this was snooping).

So this is an approach to them from a vulnerable position- we are expressing feelings. To my mother, if you approach her from this aspect- she will turn on you. Also, to feel hurt- that approach is from victim position and this doesn't seem to be acceptable to her.

Teabunny- I know this feels hurtful to you. I hope in time you can realize that your feelings are too important to let anyone dismiss them like that. It does take time to process this. It's grieving for a living person. How could they do this to you? They were supposed to care about you. If it helps you to put that email up somewhere- then do that but also consider- this doesn't deserve your attention.

[Teabunny]

Thank you so much Notwendy!

My mom also read my diaries, snooped around my room and yelled at me if I asked for privacy, while throughout life complimenting herself on how she "respected my privacy." Ha!

I'm realizing that perhaps I was too hasty in assuming my mom just had BPD and wasn't a narcissist or had narcissistic traits. I think both parents may have these traits. And like you've said many times, Notwendy, my parents are one person - the disordered mother.

He replied by typing a lengthy email all about himself, reprimanding me for expecting any replies from him & mom, not responding to anything I mentioned recently happening in my life, congratulated my husband who was promoted (that's a pattern - my husband's life matters) and justified his lack of response to my updates in the past 3-4 years by saying his days are too full: after work hours, on weekends and evenings, he watches movies with mom and does yardwork. Thus, why should I expect a response from him? 

And bonkers statements in his email: Dad wrote that his parents never mailed him anything either and he didn't think that was wrong of his parents so why should I think it was wrong of Dad - actually, dad previously mailed me things his parents mailed him, I have those items (a pretty birthday card from his father, a postcard from his mother...)

They make me feel like I don't exist as a person.
That reality doesn't exist.
And I finally see that the emotional harm is intentional.

After a flurry of unhealthy texts and emails from both of them, I've gone no contact with my parents. Deleted accounts I'd created to maintain a filtered contact for us to stay in touch - failed 2021 low contact experiment. It feels so freeing to know that I have my whole future ahead of me, without having to fear my parents in it. Hard to explain the wonder and joy, and immense relief.

Now for more therapy to keep working on myself...

[Notwendy]

My mother has NPD traits. My parents also acted like one person. When we were kids, it seemed my father sometimes opposed her but her reaction was extreme- and I think over time, he just didn't want to have that happen.

Those emails from your parents are -IMHO- self centered. You can see in your father's email that he experienced similar behavior from his father. When we grow up with a disordered family - that is our normal. He doesn't see anything wrong in this because that's what his father did. Maybe both he and his father are NPD. Not to excuse it. Just because our parent behaved a certain way - doesn't mean we have to do it.

We can be the cycle breakers- so yes, take care of you and also if that takes some therapy- do that too. You will be the game changer- for you and everyone in your (chosen) circle!

[Methuen]

I had assumed that the reason my dad only responded to 1 out of 22 email updates I sent both parents in about 2.5 years was that either he didn't feel it was important to respond, or mom was preventing him (which he's told me she does, but he has a work computer & smart phone with email capabilities, and I use his personal email).

Teabunny, I can't speak for you, but after catching up on your thread, if this happened to me, well, I would expect the behavior from my mom, but what would hurt the most was the response from dad.

I am sorry.  On the other hand, it seems that you have seen the situation for what it is.  And now you are ready to do what is needed to take care of yourself first, and let go of the magical thinking of having a normal relationship with either of them.  It sounds like a relief for you, and you are now moving forward without them.  I understand.

[kells76]

Well, this is embarrassing, but I could not find any way on this forum to edit or delete my recent post to remove my real name. I thought "Excerpt" may show original text, like an editing feature, but it simply copied my post. There is no visible delete, even within 30 minutes of making a post. I tried reporting my mistake to the moderator, but it wasn't allowed because I created this topic thread and one can't report one's own post. I'm not sure what to try next.

(no worries, you can always skip the "report post" function and PM a moderator directly! We're happy to help with privacy edits. Sorry the functionality hasn't been restored)

[Teabunny]

Thank you lots and lots, Kels76! I'm not sure how to directly contact a moderator but can probably figure it out next time a typo happens. I just wanted to say I appreciate that you fixed my mistake, thanks!