Am I the problem? Or is my wife BPD?

[nesta]

Hi,

My friend put me on to the book ‘stop walking on eggshells’ when discussing my relationship challenges with him. Then I I came to this site after hearing about it in the book.. After reading the book, I’m very suscpicious my wife has BPD. She definitely doesn’t have NPD.

We just came home from an overnight trip. She sabatoged dinner with her usual insecurities and anxiety. Literally ruined our night and the rest of the trip. It was unsalvageable. This is like the 20-25 day out of the past 30 or so that she has acted out in terms of her anxiety/insecurity/mood swings. They almost seem to occur daily now. They are getting worse and worse lately. Seems like it has since I started going to counseling myself for anger management issues. My anger management issues have been an issue for me for a long time but I now realize that my wife seems to provoke me more than anyone. Now that I’m in counseling and am reacting differently, I can see her behavior for what it is more clearly now that I’m not reacting anymore/as much.

We have been together for 4 years with our 1 year wedding anniversary coming up in 2 weeks. If we make it. After yesterday, it is seriously in question.

She has anxiety. Which I was understanding and accepting of when we got together. It has gotten worse or she just feels more comfortable expressing it since we moved in together 2.5 years ago.

She gets really anxious when she feels compared to other women. She gets stressed out if she doesn’t do her hair and make up and even then, is never happy with her appearance. She confesses to having body dysmorphia and a chronic history of insecurity. Her husband did cheat on her in fairness, and is now with the then mistress. But that’s an entire story in itself.

She is beautiful and voluptuous. She has gained a bit of weight since we met but it doesn’t matter to me. I still find her attractive.

I asked her why she felt so uncomfortable in the restaurant as she was writhing and looking anxious (she is a totally different person when she feels anxious) and it makes me uncomfortable too. She brought up the reason why - her insecurity with how she looks because of me leering at other women. She mentioned the discussion we had on our trip a few weeks ago saying that I know why. I had had enough. In that discussion she literally told me I had destroyed her confidence and make her feel deeply insecure about herself. I was stunned. Apparently this has been going on for over a year and I have never been told about it until then. At the time, I was stunned and took it in (too long a story to post)  only to digest this long conversation over the past few weeks. And then I read that book.

In the restaurant, I told her that I am not ok with her false accusations anymore and that I reject her previous accusations from our last trip. I told her that just because she felt that way did it not make it a reality. I couldn’t finish my meal I was so upset.. I maintained my composure and we left.

I confess in the past, her outbursts/behavior would anger me to the point that I would lose my temper. I’d get mad and stew about it while she avoided talking to me. And then I’d end up apologizing to her and trying to make up. This has been a recurring theme in our relationship. Sometimes she won’t talk to me for 1-2 days before she calms down then we discuss things and she acts like nothing has ever happened. Sometimes, she wil apologize. Mostly when I do.

We went back to our room and had a huge discussion about what has been going on. I have been trying to implement some of  the things I have learned in counseling (for myself) and in the book. Mirroring and not being a sponge. But to no avail. I have gotten my anger under control though and never lost my cool. Last night things came to a head. I tried to ask her to go to counseling for herself and with me for couples counseling. It wasn’t well received. She resists me asking her to go to counselling and blames me for her feelings of insecurity and has accused me of staring at other women and making her feel terrible about herself. This came up on a trip a few weekends ago and the trip was ruined by her outbursts, accusations and behavior. I did look at the two women on each occasion she referred to. I didn’t deny that. I was just observing of them due to her odd behavior. The other one, I did glance at, right in front of my wife. She caught me looking at her…I probably was looking at her as a reflex. What can I say, I am a man. It’s hard not to look sometimes.

I could go on and on defending myself but maybe I have been leering at other women! I probably have and do, but  I don’t think I stare/leer at them like she asserts.

She has been accusing me of cheating or going to cheat on her for our entire relationship. She gets  jealous of any women that she meets from my past:that I know, even though I have not been intimate with any of them (excluding one single instance and she’s married to an old friend) but then expects me to not be jealous of her past. She had many male friends, a few of which she had sex with and I have had to hang out with them and not say anything. It’s no big deal when it comes to her past relationships.

The night was terrible. We spent the entire morning talking about it again and had the most awkward drive home. She cried the entire way.

When we got home she was asking me if I needed some space. I repeatedly told her what I need is for her to go get some help. She was really upset at me self diagnosing her. I asked her to prove me wrong then. It was another exhausting few hours of back and forth. She did admit that I was right about everything and then proceeded to hack herself down saying she was a terrible person, wife and mother. And then, of course, I found myself trying to calm her down and tell her that’s not true. And tried to make her feel better. She was literally going to leave - to give ‘me’ space. And confessed that she will ever have the courage to leave me selfishly (I suspect that means because she would have to be independent and that’s probably scary for her). And I do know she genuinely loves me.

It’s exhausting. But, I truly do love her and am super attracted to her. I tell her all the time but she just won’t beleive it.

I just don’t know what to do anymore. I don’t want to leave her. I love her and when she’s her, she’s an amazing person and wife. But when she’s jealous/anxious/insecure and in one of her outbursts, I just want out. Or better yet, I want her to stop doing this so we can be happy.

I could keep writing and writing. Thanks for reading this far. I’m happy to take criticism and be told that I am the problem.

In the words of Bill Burr “one thing I’ve learned about 5 years of marriage is, we’re always working on me!” Kinda sums up my life tbh.

[Rev]

Good morning Nesta,

Welcome to BPD family.  And thank you for that very clear testimony. You paint a very accurate picture of someone who is having something come into focus.

You appear to be rightly cautious about not jumping to conclusions too fast on the one hand - and on the other hand, it is becoming increasingly difficult for you to ignore the intuition that something is off in your relationship.

Do I have that correct?  As in is my reflection sort of in the right postal code of your situation?  If there is something that you would change about what I said, or something that you would add, what would it be?

I'm going to take some to time to re-read this and sit with it and will write back when other thoughts come to mind. And I want to make sure that I've heard you correctly regardless.

In the meantime - have you had a look at our site ?  Have you seen the TOOLS section.  Here's a link that I think you will find useful to orient yourself.  

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

In the meantime - WELCOME!  Lots and lots of kindness and wisdom here.  One thing that you won't find though...  NO judgement.  Zero.  None.  Nada. So that's a plus  

Seriously, I don't mean to make light of your situation.  This can be a confusing place to be in. So one step at a time is the golden rule.

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

[ForeverDad]

To expand on Rev's excellent link to boundaries, over on our Tools & Skills Workshops forum board we have a couple topics listed about Boundary setting.  Persons with BPD and other acting-out PDs typically resist boundaries and insist on Blaming, Blame Shifting, Fault Finding and other negative behaviors.  So boundaries are for us to ponder for ourselves and implement wisely.  Another part of boundaries is to use them in response to the other's poor behaviors.  Of necessity, boundaries are on us to build and maintain.

In the words of Bill Burr “one thing I’ve learned about 5 years of marriage is, we’re always working on me!” Kinda sums up my life tbh.

One of our more recommended authors is William Eddy (especially his SPLITTING handbook if a relationship is failing or a divorce is looming) who wrote "It's All Your Fault!" which does seem to apply in your case.

Unfortunately, this improper behavior is typical with BPD and most hurtful.  It is commented often that people with BPD (pwBPD) feel shame and fear abandonment.  Sadly, their fear of abandonment and other behaviors backfire and seems to drive abandonment, for all we know that's a factor in her prior failed marriage, since you apparently haven't heard her ex's side of the story.

You asked, "Am I the problem?"  From your account it is evident that your anger management issues were not all your own issues, but a reflection of the situation you are in.  Situational, not typical in your life at all.  From the clarity of your post and from you honestly asking that question, you are probably a reasonably normal person and the bigger problem is your spouse's mental health issues.  Her perceptions are skewed and making your relationship falter no matter how hard you work on yourself.

Your issues are being addressed in counseling.  Excellent.  She too would benefit from counseling as well.  Problem is, counseling is just a start.  Would she truly listen?  Would she hold her toes to the burning truth and diligently apply the guidance in her perceptions, behavior and life?  Many pwBPD refuse to take that path.  Or they fake it, claiming a few sessions fixed everything.  This is a years-long process.  Recovery is a process, not an event.

[once removed]

whenever anyone asks "is it me or them", the answer tends to be "both of you and neither of you".

dont get me wrong. bpd traits present unique challenges for any relationship. in the best case scenario, where there is a healthy foundation, trust, intimacy, conflict resolution, there will be storms directly related to bpd.

but every relationship is a series of interactions. you both arrived at this somewhat dysfunctional place together. there will be, necessarily, things that you both bring to the table, that drive conflict, and/or dysfunction. some of these things may not be "bad" things at all, but may be harmful in the context of your relationship; sort of like you might have one person that is a "hugger", and one person that hates hugs. neither is "good" nor "bad", but if youre in a relationship with someone that hates hugs, and you try to hug them, well, thats going to do the relationship harm.

but there are other, clearer cut examples.

When we got home she was asking me if I needed some space. I repeatedly told her what I need is for her to go get some help. She was really upset at me self diagnosing her. I asked her to prove me wrong then.

i dont say this to scold you (i cant tell you how many times that i screamed at my ex that she was crazy, psychotic, that i hated being her boyfriend, that she needed help, etc) when i tell you this approach will be damaging to your relationship.

people with bpd traits are generally deeply, pathologically insecure, self loathing, distrustful of others, and very afraid of people seeing them in a bad light.

this approach will further that insecurity, it places one of you in a one up position, and its just not at the end of the day ever going to be constructive. it will not encourage her to get that help.

extreme jealousy is a pretty common characteristic for someone with bpd traits. it was, for me, the hardest part of my relationship. i couldnt live with it. it makes me feel smothered, and engulfed. i find it unattractive.

generally speaking, this sort of jealousy is pathological. it predates you. it will continue to exist if you disappeared tomorrow. it is an example of something directly bpd related that more than likely, no matter how much your relationship improves, will present challenges from time to time.

I tell her all the time but she just won’t beleive it.

you cannot convince her of this with your words, and you dont really want to try to "convince her". to some extent, building the foundation of a relationship that is a validating environment, where love and trust and intimacy can thrive (as much as they can), she can trust in you, your love, and your attraction to her. not necessarily permanently, or even consistently, but, potentially more consistently than youre seeing now.

when she accuses you of leering at other women, she believes it, because her fears and her insecurities are so incredibly deep, the idea so threatening, that it makes perfect sense. defending yourself against it by and large validates her fears.

dealing with an extremely jealous person is hard. exhausting. fortunately, we have a workshop on how to do it! i think it would be a great place to start (when trying to improve your relationship, you dont want to go too big or bite off more than you can chew) in terms of how to make things a lot more peaceful for you and your relationship. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.0

[livednlearned]

I told her that just because she felt that way did it not make it a reality.

That's unfortunately the polar opposite for someone with BPD. Feelings = facts. If she feels it, then it's true. If she's insecure, there must be a reason, and it must be outside of her, since her sense of self is not existent. Without a self, there are no boundaries. She can only figure out who she is by what other people look like.

I’d get mad and stew about it while she avoided talking to me. And then I’d end up apologizing to her and trying to make up. This has been a recurring theme in our relationship. Sometimes she won’t talk to me for 1-2 days before she calms down then we discuss things and she acts like nothing has ever happened. Sometimes, she wil apologize. Mostly when I do.

This probably won't change unless you decide to do things different.

I tried to ask her to go to counseling for herself and with me for couples counseling. It wasn’t well received. She resists me asking her to go to counselling and blames me for her feelings of insecurity and has accused me of staring at other women and making her feel terrible about herself.

Sometimes, without even realizing it, we reward problematic behavior. If she continues to assign responsibility for her insecurity to you, and your response is, "I think only a counselor can help you work through that" she may discover the topic keeps leading to a solution. She'll either walk back the accusation (it's your fault I'm insecure) or ... try something different.

Pointing her to the same solution in a dispassionate, matter-of-fact tone of voice may elicit a counter move because she's not getting what she wants, which is a drop of reassurance in a bottomless sea of need. Even when you're angry about her needs, she gets something, even if it's anger, because it's something. A counter move happens when there's a change in status quo. It's likely she will escalate the anxiety when you make small changes so it's good to be prepared for that and know it'll pass after she discovers the change appears permanent.

What are your thoughts on how that might work?

[ForeverDad]

To complicate it all, we're here somewhere in the world on the other end of a wire, or wireless, and hence we can't know everything.  We're remote and fairly anonymous peer support.  Adding to that, many of us here never did get a diagnosis, not Borderline or anything else.  (Many psychologists, therapists and counselors are reluctant to even name a particular disorder since since such details could hinder therapy and recovery.  Ponder that!)

So a good bit of what we conclude for ourselves is how the poor behaviors express themselves and then we look for how to address that.  So much of what we share is from our collective wisdom (experience) of what usually works and what usually doesn't.

You've already made a great start by seeking counseling for yourself and implementing it in your life.  Sadly, the next step is not so simple.  Typically we cannot fix a dysfunctional person.  We can encourage recovery but that's difficult with BPD perceptions that often a matter where the other spouse can't get past the baggage (history) of the close emotional relationship.

BPD is usually most evident the closer the relationship.  Other people on the emotional periphery of her life may see something odd here or there but the intensive exposure is to those closest to the person, such as you.  For example, who is the person your spouse is most often with when behind closed doors and alone in cars (that is, in private scenarios)?

Add to that, different people express their traits differently and to a different extent.  Like most illnesses and mental variations there is a spectrum of behaviors between mild and intense.  So dealing with it takes time, various approaches, various tactics, etc.

[Azrael]

Hi,

My friend put me on to the book ‘stop walking on eggshells’ when discussing my relationship challenges with him. Then I I came to this site after hearing about it in the book.. After reading the book, I’m very suscpicious my wife has BPD. She definitely doesn’t have NPD.

We just came home from an overnight trip. She sabatoged dinner with her usual insecurities and anxiety. Literally ruined our night and the rest of the trip. It was unsalvageable. This is like the 20-25 day out of the past 30 or so that she has acted out in terms of her anxiety/insecurity/mood swings. They almost seem to occur daily now. They are getting worse and worse lately. Seems like it has since I started going to counseling myself for anger management issues. My anger management issues have been an issue for me for a long time but I now realize that my wife seems to provoke me more than anyone. Now that I’m in counseling and am reacting differently, I can see her behavior for what it is more clearly now that I’m not reacting anymore/as much.

We have been together for 4 years with our 1 year wedding anniversary coming up in 2 weeks. If we make it. After yesterday, it is seriously in question.

She has anxiety. Which I was understanding and accepting of when we got together. It has gotten worse or she just feels more comfortable expressing it since we moved in together 2.5 years ago.

She gets really anxious when she feels compared to other women. She gets stressed out if she doesn’t do her hair and make up and even then, is never happy with her appearance. She confesses to having body dysmorphia and a chronic history of insecurity. Her husband did cheat on her in fairness, and is now with the then mistress. But that’s an entire story in itself.

She is beautiful and voluptuous. She has gained a bit of weight since we met but it doesn’t matter to me. I still find her attractive.

I asked her why she felt so uncomfortable in the restaurant as she was writhing and looking anxious (she is a totally different person when she feels anxious) and it makes me uncomfortable too. She brought up the reason why - her insecurity with how she looks because of me leering at other women. She mentioned the discussion we had on our trip a few weeks ago saying that I know why. I had had enough. In that discussion she literally told me I had destroyed her confidence and make her feel deeply insecure about herself. I was stunned. Apparently this has been going on for over a year and I have never been told about it until then. At the time, I was stunned and took it in (too long a story to post)  only to digest this long conversation over the past few weeks. And then I read that book.

In the restaurant, I told her that I am not ok with her false accusations anymore and that I reject her previous accusations from our last trip. I told her that just because she felt that way did it not make it a reality. I couldn’t finish my meal I was so upset.. I maintained my composure and we left.

I confess in the past, her outbursts/behavior would anger me to the point that I would lose my temper. I’d get mad and stew about it while she avoided talking to me. And then I’d end up apologizing to her and trying to make up. This has been a recurring theme in our relationship. Sometimes she won’t talk to me for 1-2 days before she calms down then we discuss things and she acts like nothing has ever happened. Sometimes, she wil apologize. Mostly when I do.

We went back to our room and had a huge discussion about what has been going on. I have been trying to implement some of  the things I have learned in counseling (for myself) and in the book. Mirroring and not being a sponge. But to no avail. I have gotten my anger under control though and never lost my cool. Last night things came to a head. I tried to ask her to go to counseling for herself and with me for couples counseling. It wasn’t well received. She resists me asking her to go to counselling and blames me for her feelings of insecurity and has accused me of staring at other women and making her feel terrible about herself. This came up on a trip a few weekends ago and the trip was ruined by her outbursts, accusations and behavior. I did look at the two women on each occasion she referred to. I didn’t deny that. I was just observing of them due to her odd behavior. The other one, I did glance at, right in front of my wife. She caught me looking at her…I probably was looking at her as a reflex. What can I say, I am a man. It’s hard not to look sometimes.

I could go on and on defending myself but maybe I have been leering at other women! I probably have and do, but  I don’t think I stare/leer at them like she asserts.

She has been accusing me of cheating or going to cheat on her for our entire relationship. She gets  jealous of any women that she meets from my past:that I know, even though I have not been intimate with any of them (excluding one single instance and she’s married to an old friend) but then expects me to not be jealous of her past. She had many male friends, a few of which she had sex with and I have had to hang out with them and not say anything. It’s no big deal when it comes to her past relationships.

The night was terrible. We spent the entire morning talking about it again and had the most awkward drive home. She cried the entire way.

When we got home she was asking me if I needed some space. I repeatedly told her what I need is for her to go get some help. She was really upset at me self diagnosing her. I asked her to prove me wrong then. It was another exhausting few hours of back and forth. She did admit that I was right about everything and then proceeded to hack herself down saying she was a terrible person, wife and mother. And then, of course, I found myself trying to calm her down and tell her that’s not true. And tried to make her feel better. She was literally going to leave - to give ‘me’ space. And confessed that she will ever have the courage to leave me selfishly (I suspect that means because she would have to be independent and that’s probably scary for her). And I do know she genuinely loves me.

It’s exhausting. But, I truly do love her and am super attracted to her. I tell her all the time but she just won’t beleive it.

I just don’t know what to do anymore. I don’t want to leave her. I love her and when she’s her, she’s an amazing person and wife. But when she’s jealous/anxious/insecure and in one of her outbursts, I just want out. Or better yet, I want her to stop doing this so we can be happy.

I could keep writing and writing. Thanks for reading this far. I’m happy to take criticism and be told that I am the problem.

In the words of Bill Burr “one thing I’ve learned about 5 years of marriage is, we’re always working on me!” Kinda sums up my life tbh.

You described the BPD relationship cycle. Without therapy, and she getting cognition of what she have and be willing to change it, I have to tell you this will be the rest of your life. Idk if you have children with her, bc you mentioned children but not if you are the father. You basically described my past relationship. A person trying to guilt trip me all the time for things I never did. Jealous of even friends that I had online that I have never met, but she having "friendship" with ALL her exes, including married men that she cheated their wives with. I have to tell you , and be realistic, that the prognosis for BPD over a 10 year period , as best , is management of it, not cure. And that from those 10 years( in a person that already recognized she have BPD and is under progressive and willing treatment) they might be better 2 of those 10 years. Those are the statistics directly from a health professional. Regarding "love", please check my other posts and read the essay that is posted as a link. BPD view of "love" is not what your view is. Their love is very unstable, but they can make you "feel" like you are the most loved person in the world. This comes from impulsivity, not reasoning or real love. It is their hypersensitivity making her feelings 100 times more at the time she "thinks" she is in love with you, and then that same thing happening when she thinks she does not love you anymore , 10 minutes later. I dont want to be a downer, but  I need to be realistic. You could possibly stay with her, and continue this. But with time, it will become worst if she does not get any treatment. She have unresolved past trauma, and it wont be fixed by anything you do. She have to fix her trauma so you are in the right track. When she have outburst of recognizing that " you are right", like you said she did, that is the moment to get from her a compromise to go to a therapists together. I wish you the best of luck on this.

[nesta]

Good morning Nesta,

Welcome to BPD family.  And thank you for that very clear testimony. You paint a very accurate picture of someone who is having something come into focus.

You appear to be rightly cautious about not jumping to conclusions too fast on the one hand - and on the other hand, it is becoming increasingly difficult for you to ignore the intuition that something is off in your relationship.

Do I have that correct?  As in is my reflection sort of in the right postal code of your situation?  If there is something that you would change about what I said, or something that you would add, what would it be?

I'm going to take some to time to re-read this and sit with it and will write back when other thoughts come to mind. And I want to make sure that I've heard you correctly regardless.

In the meantime - have you had a look at our site ?  Have you seen the TOOLS section.  Here's a link that I think you will find useful to orient yourself.  

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

In the meantime - WELCOME!  Lots and lots of kindness and wisdom here.  One thing that you won't find though...  NO judgement.  Zero.  None.  Nada. So that's a plus  

Seriously, I don't mean to make light of your situation.  This can be a confusing place to be in. So one step at a time is the golden rule.

Hang in there.

Reach out any time.

Rev

Hello Rev,

Thank you for taking the time to respond and welcoming me. My apologies for not responding until now. You are correct and in the right postal code. I’m not quite sure if she literally has BPD vs just childish behaviour/PTSD/anxiety but something is amiss and it has become very apparent as our relationship has progressed. It was always there tbh but her behaviour has become increasingly apparent. Things have calmed down somewhat since I last posted with the occasional outbursts that I have always come to expect from her but the discussions we have had since I posted initially must have had some effect as she has not had any serious outbursts or “splitting” episodes since then. But, something tells me it is not over. However, I’m glad and I think now she is forced to confront the reality that her behaviour is not ok.

Thanks again

[nesta]

To expand on Rev's excellent link to boundaries, over on our Tools & Skills Workshops forum board we have a couple topics listed about Boundary setting.  Persons with BPD and other acting-out PDs typically resist boundaries and insist on Blaming, Blame Shifting, Fault Finding and other negative behaviors.  So boundaries are for us to ponder for ourselves and implement wisely.  Another part of boundaries is to use them in response to the other's poor behaviors.  Of necessity, boundaries are on us to build and maintain.

One of our more recommended authors is William Eddy (especially his SPLITTING handbook if a relationship is failing or a divorce is looming) who wrote "It's All Your Fault!" which does seem to apply in your case.

Unfortunately, this improper behavior is typical with BPD and most hurtful.  It is commented often that people with BPD (pwBPD) feel shame and fear abandonment.  Sadly, their fear of abandonment and other behaviors backfire and seems to drive abandonment, for all we know that's a factor in her prior failed marriage, since you apparently haven't heard her ex's side of the story.

You asked, "Am I the problem?"  From your account it is evident that your anger management issues were not all your own issues, but a reflection of the situation you are in.  Situational, not typical in your life at all.  From the clarity of your post and from you honestly asking that question, you are probably a reasonably normal person and the bigger problem is your spouse's mental health issues.  Her perceptions are skewed and making your relationship falter no matter how hard you work on yourself.

Your issues are being addressed in counseling.  Excellent.  She too would benefit from counseling as well.  Problem is, counseling is just a start.  Would she truly listen?  Would she hold her toes to the burning truth and diligently apply the guidance in her perceptions, behavior and life?  Many pwBPD refuse to take that path.  Or they fake it, claiming a few sessions fixed everything.  This is a years-long process.  Recovery is a process, not an event.

Hello,

Thank you for taking the time to respond and your comments. My apologies for not responding until now. I was trying to make light of the situation with humour but I appreciate the recommendation. I have not found the time to read it yet, but I will.

I do believe her “issues” in part stem from what she was subjected to/endured in her past marriage. Not sure if that is the single origin. Something tells me it must be also rooted in childhood as well as genetics too (knowing her family).

There is no disputing that I have anger management issues and my own issues but they have been almost resolved, surprisingly, with counselling. I didn’t think I’d see such rapid improvement with only a few sessions. I feel like  I’m being provoked all the time (it feels like it anyways). No excuse to lose control though and I know this. We seemed to repeat that cycle prior to me going to counselling. Now her behaviour has become more severe, or perhaps more apparent, due to me no longer engaging with anger in response to her assertions/outbursts. She’s had a few minor ones lately and it’s really interesting to watch her sit with her emotions after her anxiety/temper tantrums when I don’t respond with anger or even respond at all. This is what has changed and I believe made her outbursts/behaviour more apparent.

She is an unwilling participant in counselling. She said she’ll go but it wasn’t genuine and seemed to only be to appease me. I believe she will go and has the capacity to address things once she’s there, but time will tell. For now, things are calm (until the next outburst) and she is now aware of the problems due to our conversation. I believe she will go due to the threat of me being unwilling to continue as is and ultimately for fear of losing me. But, we have not talked about it further since that last conversation. She has been really good lately and continues to with the “usual” anxiety behaviours. It took her about 5 days to return to what I now call baseline or normal for her. The woman I love and not the anxious/angry part of her. I now am struggling on whether to poke the bear and discuss seriously going to counselling. I know it’s temporary (meaning the good times) and she needs the help. It’s just “easier” to not deal with it.

Thanks again.

[Smedley Butler]

Now her behaviour has become more severe, or perhaps more apparent, due to me no longer engaging with anger in response to her assertions/outbursts. She’s had a few minor ones lately and it’s really interesting to watch her sit with her emotions after her anxiety/temper tantrums when I don’t respond with anger or even respond at all. This is what has changed and I believe made her outbursts/behaviour more apparent.

this is exactly where i'm at in my marriage.  EXACTLY. 

[Rev]

I now am struggling on whether to poke the bear and discuss seriously going to counselling. I know it’s temporary (meaning the good times) and she needs the help. It’s just “easier” to not deal with it.

There is an important and I would say critical balance to be found here.  It was not one that I was really able to find - hence the marriage ended - and not at my choosing, but hers. So maybe there is something to that in impeding finding the balance.

All that to say that it is rather elusive. Whoever said that being a relationship with someone who has wide mood swings is really about "management" rather than "change per se" is correct.  

What can we do to support you in the discernment of the balance that you are looking for?

Rev

PS - if you are looking to preserve this relationship, I would invite you to reframe the statement you made that "she needs the help" to:  She needs the help, I need the help, we need the help. Understand that this is rare and 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 split.  It's all a moving target.  Just a reflection I am offering. No specific point that I am making except to say that maybe that lens will help you strike the balance.

[nesta]

whenever anyone asks "is it me or them", the answer tends to be "both of you and neither of you".

dont get me wrong. bpd traits present unique challenges for any relationship. in the best case scenario, where there is a healthy foundation, trust, intimacy, conflict resolution, there will be storms directly related to bpd.

but every relationship is a series of interactions. you both arrived at this somewhat dysfunctional place together. there will be, necessarily, things that you both bring to the table, that drive conflict, and/or dysfunction. some of these things may not be "bad" things at all, but may be harmful in the context of your relationship; sort of like you might have one person that is a "hugger", and one person that hates hugs. neither is "good" nor "bad", but if youre in a relationship with someone that hates hugs, and you try to hug them, well, thats going to do the relationship harm.

but there are other, clearer cut examples.

i dont say this to scold you (i cant tell you how many times that i screamed at my ex that she was crazy, psychotic, that i hated being her boyfriend, that she needed help, etc) when i tell you this approach will be damaging to your relationship.

people with bpd traits are generally deeply, pathologically insecure, self loathing, distrustful of others, and very afraid of people seeing them in a bad light.

this approach will further that insecurity, it places one of you in a one up position, and its just not at the end of the day ever going to be constructive. it will not encourage her to get that help.

extreme jealousy is a pretty common characteristic for someone with bpd traits. it was, for me, the hardest part of my relationship. i couldnt live with it. it makes me feel smothered, and engulfed. i find it unattractive.

generally speaking, this sort of jealousy is pathological. it predates you. it will continue to exist if you disappeared tomorrow. it is an example of something directly bpd related that more than likely, no matter how much your relationship improves, will present challenges from time to time.

you cannot convince her of this with your words, and you dont really want to try to "convince her". to some extent, building the foundation of a relationship that is a validating environment, where love and trust and intimacy can thrive (as much as they can), she can trust in you, your love, and your attraction to her. not necessarily permanently, or even consistently, but, potentially more consistently than youre seeing now.

when she accuses you of leering at other women, she believes it, because her fears and her insecurities are so incredibly deep, the idea so threatening, that it makes perfect sense. defending yourself against it by and large validates her fears.

dealing with an extremely jealous person is hard. exhausting. fortunately, we have a workshop on how to do it! i think it would be a great place to start (when trying to improve your relationship, you dont want to go too big or bite off more than you can chew) in terms of how to make things a lot more peaceful for you and your relationship. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.0

Thank you for your perspective, insight and taking the time to respond. I tend to only look at this site when alone, for obvious reasons, so am not quick to reply. I realize this now and wish that I could have held my tongue. Things have been reasonably good since I originally posted this, so maybe some good has come from this new awareness, even if she doesn’t have BPD.

I have been slowly looking through the tools on the site and I looked into the link you sent me. I find the jealousy and insecurity to be the most challenging aspect of all this. The anxiety was there and I accepted that, but the insecurities and jealousy has progressed. It was there in the beginning too, but I had some of that being in a new relationship. I was surprised to see it get worse for her but better for me as our relationship progressed.

Thanks again.

[nesta]

That's unfortunately the polar opposite for someone with BPD. Feelings = facts. If she feels it, then it's true. If she's insecure, there must be a reason, and it must be outside of her, since her sense of self is not existent. Without a self, there are no boundaries. She can only figure out who she is by what other people look like.

This probably won't change unless you decide to do things different.

Sometimes, without even realizing it, we reward problematic behavior. If she continues to assign responsibility for her insecurity to you, and your response is, "I think only a counselor can help you work through that" she may discover the topic keeps leading to a solution. She'll either walk back the accusation (it's your fault I'm insecure) or ... try something different.

Pointing her to the same solution in a dispassionate, matter-of-fact tone of voice may elicit a counter move because she's not getting what she wants, which is a drop of reassurance in a bottomless sea of need. Even when you're angry about her needs, she gets something, even if it's anger, because it's something. A counter move happens when there's a change in status quo. It's likely she will escalate the anxiety when you make small changes so it's good to be prepared for that and know it'll pass after she discovers the change appears permanent.

What are your thoughts on how that might work?

Thanks for your insight and the reply. I have done some of what you suggested since posting this and it has worked. Not so much insisting on counselling (we need to revisit this but I see it as wise to proceed cautiously here since she has improved somewhat since we had this big discussion), but change in the status quo. I am working on not responding to her outbursts, anxiety behaviours, etc and it really works. I’m hoping that she sees her reactions and outbursts differently now that I don’t engage or respond the way I had in the past. I can tell it is forcing her to think about her reaction patterns differently because I am not taking the bait.

[nesta]

To complicate it all, we're here somewhere in the world on the other end of a wire, or wireless, and hence we can't know everything.  We're remote and fairly anonymous peer support.  Adding to that, many of us here never did get a diagnosis, not Borderline or anything else.  (Many psychologists, therapists and counselors are reluctant to even name a particular disorder since since such details could hinder therapy and recovery.  Ponder that!)

So a good bit of what we conclude for ourselves is how the poor behaviors express themselves and then we look for how to address that.  So much of what we share is from our collective wisdom (experience) of what usually works and what usually doesn't.

You've already made a great start by seeking counseling for yourself and implementing it in your life.  Sadly, the next step is not so simple.  Typically we cannot fix a dysfunctional person.  We can encourage recovery but that's difficult with BPD perceptions that often a matter where the other spouse can't get past the baggage (history) of the close emotional relationship.

BPD is usually most evident the closer the relationship.  Other people on the emotional periphery of her life may see something odd here or there but the intensive exposure is to those closest to the person, such as you.  For example, who is the person your spouse is most often with when behind closed doors and alone in cars (that is, in private scenarios)?

Add to that, different people express their traits differently and to a different extent.  Like most illnesses and mental variations there is a spectrum of behaviors between mild and intense.  So dealing with it takes time, various approaches, various tactics, etc.

Hello,

Thank you for this. I found your perspective and comments insightful and validating. The last two paragraphs especially. Rings very true for me. I’m happy to have found this website. It has been also helpful to know that if she truly has BPD, that it is not her fault. Until recently, I confess to having resentment and frustration at her behaviour. Now I at least can approach it from a perspective of compassion while learning to establish and enforce  boundaries. And changing my responses and behaviour has been very helpful.

[nesta]

You described the BPD relationship cycle. Without therapy, and she getting cognition of what she have and be willing to change it, I have to tell you this will be the rest of your life. Idk if you have children with her, bc you mentioned children but not if you are the father. You basically described my past relationship. A person trying to guilt trip me all the time for things I never did. Jealous of even friends that I had online that I have never met, but she having "friendship" with ALL her exes, including married men that she cheated their wives with. I have to tell you , and be realistic, that the prognosis for BPD over a 10 year period , as best , is management of it, not cure. And that from those 10 years( in a person that already recognized she have BPD and is under progressive and willing treatment) they might be better 2 of those 10 years. Those are the statistics directly from a health professional. Regarding "love", please check my other posts and read the essay that is posted as a link. BPD view of "love" is not what your view is. Their love is very unstable, but they can make you "feel" like you are the most loved person in the world. This comes from impulsivity, not reasoning or real love. It is their hypersensitivity making her feelings 100 times more at the time she "thinks" she is in love with you, and then that same thing happening when she thinks she does not love you anymore , 10 minutes later. I dont want to be a downer, but  I need to be realistic. You could possibly stay with her, and continue this. But with time, it will become worst if she does not get any treatment. She have unresolved past trauma, and it wont be fixed by anything you do. She have to fix her trauma so you are in the right track. When she have outburst of recognizing that " you are right", like you said she did, that is the moment to get from her a compromise to go to a therapists together. I wish you the best of luck on this.

Hello. Thank you as well for taking the time to respond and for your comments and advice. It is “good” to know others out there can relate and that I’m not alone in this. What I find telling/surprising, is how common this seems to be! I’m a realist as well and appreciate your candour. I have a daughter from a previous relationship and she has two from hers. I am cautiously optimistic at this time but also have decided that I am unwilling to continue as we have been. We will see where things go. It sounds like my wife is not quite as bad as your ex but it does sound familiar. I feel like it is not that bad right now compared to when I posted, otherwise I would be more pessimistic about our relationship. I feel like she is trying as the past few weeks have been pretty good! I’m guessing she has taken the things I said to heart. Maybe she is in the phase of realizing something is wrong and she is trying in her head to adapt or make it better. Time will tell. I am going to remain patient but assertive when dealing with any more outbursts and will revisit the counselling issue when it arises. I do feel she is now aware of BPD but she probably doesn’t want to talk about it and is trying to sort it out in her head. But, most of us know that are in counselling, that you can’t do it on your own without help. I’m planning on taking it slow/as it comes and remain insistent on getting help when the outbursts eventually recur.

[nesta]

this is exactly where i'm at in my marriage.  EXACTLY. 

Misery loves company . My sympathies. I am blown away at how common this is! So many me tan health issues out there that only now I am coming to realize they have names for them. I wish you luck and a positive outcome in your situation.

[nesta]

I now am struggling on whether to poke the bear and discuss seriously going to counselling. I know it’s temporary (meaning the good times) and she needs the help. It’s just “easier” to not deal with it.

There is an important and I would say critical balance to be found here.  It was not one that I was really able to find - hence the marriage ended - and not at my choosing, but hers. So maybe there is something to that in impeding finding the balance.

All that to say that it is rather elusive. Whoever said that being a relationship with someone who has wide mood swings is really about "management" rather than "change per se" is correct.  

What can we do to support you in the discernment of the balance that you are looking for?

Rev

PS - if you are looking to preserve this relationship, I would invite you to reframe the statement you made that "she needs the help" to:  She needs the help, I need the help, we need the help. Understand that this is rare and 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 split.  It's all a moving target.  Just a reflection I am offering. No specific point that I am making except to say that maybe that lens will help you strike the balance.

I’m not sure if there is anything specific, but thanks for asking. I will reach out if I come up with anything. People’s replies, sharing their experiences and the advice offered has been helpful. And just knowing that I’m not crazy and that there is a name for her condition/behaviours (albeit, not for certain) has been helpful. Especially knowing that it’s not her fault. Prior to knowing this I was super frustrated with her behaviour as a grown adult and it used to anger me. Gaining perspective has been invaluable in how I/we move forward.

As for your PS, I appreciate that and I did actually say we need the help and acknowledged that I am getting help already. This has helped me immensely in navigating this past month or so.

Cheers

[ForeverDad]

There are a couple "be aware / beware" unhelpful responses that we often hear when members try to rescue or improve the relationship.

There can be extinction bursts where the other tries to ramp up demands to comply, appease, retreat, etc back to the prior patterns that were in the other's usual "comfort zone".

Since yours is a his and hers family and not an ours family at this point, be cautious about intimacy and pregnancy protection. While children are wonderful, a dysfunctional relationship (such as with BPD behaviors) does not get better when pregnancies happen.  A realistic perspective is that having children does not improve an unhealthy disordered relationship, it typically engenders an extra level of control by one spouse over the other and vastly complicates unwinding the relationship.  So until you're sure the relationship is less dysfunctional and less unhealthy, please be in charge of contraception so the other's "oops I forgot" risks are reduced.