introduction

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

hello all.  i've been posting on the site for a few months now, but i generally have been posting on the "bettering a relationship" board.  i'll probably still post over there some, but i've come to realize that this board is probably more appropriate for my situation.  i'm a 42m married to a 41f for 12 years, and we have two little girls, 6 and 9.  i desperately want to avoid divorce because i cant imagine a life where i dont see my little girls every day.  and additionally, i cant imagine leaving them unchecked and unprotected from their mother half the time.  to be clear, she isnt the "witch" or even the "queen" archetype, but her constant level of anxiety and stress is beginning to really take its toll on my girls.  i feel like i'm managing a crisis with one or both of them nearly every day that is 90% due to my wife's handling of them (in my opinion). 

but i'm also realizing the hugely negative impact and toll this marriage is taking on me, and i find myself daydreaming about life on the other side.  i look at houses for sale or rent in the nearby area and imagine how great it would feel to not come home to chaos every day.  we rarely have sex, and when we do it's hardly worth the effort.  i'm in a constant state of agitation and nervousness in my own home, and i am NOT a guy that is prone to nervousness and restlessness.  almost the opposite actually. 

in short, i'm very torn about what to do next.  divorce seems almost unthinkable when i get into the details in my mind.  but living this life for another however many years until my kids are grown (12 years i guess) seems equally unthinkable.     

[Smedley Butler]

hello all.  i've been posting on the site for a few months now, but i generally have been posting on the "bettering a relationship" board.  i'll probably still post over there some, but i've come to realize that this board is probably more appropriate for my situation.  i'm a 42m married to a 41f for 12 years, and we have two little girls, 6 and 9.  i desperately want to avoid divorce because i cant imagine a life where i dont see my little girls every day.  and additionally, i cant imagine leaving them unchecked and unprotected from their mother half the time.  to be clear, she isnt the "witch" or even the "queen" archetype, but her constant level of anxiety and stress is beginning to really take its toll on my girls.  i feel like i'm managing a crisis with one or both of them nearly every day that is 90% due to my wife's handling of them (in my opinion). 

but i'm also realizing the hugely negative impact and toll this marriage is taking on me, and i find myself daydreaming about life on the other side.  i look at houses for sale or rent in the nearby area and imagine how great it would feel to not come home to chaos every day.  we rarely have sex, and when we do it's hardly worth the effort.  i'm in a constant state of agitation and nervousness in my own home, and i am NOT a guy that is prone to nervousness and restlessness.  almost the opposite actually. 

in short, i'm very torn about what to do next.  divorce seems almost unthinkable when i get into the details in my mind.  but living this life for another however many years until my kids are grown (12 years i guess) seems equally unthinkable.     

[kells76]

Hey, thanks for the update on where you're at. It makes a lot of sense that you'd like to better your relationship for many reasons, and yet, at the same time, you're seeing the reality of the negativity, stress, anxiety, and chaos.

One approach that you can consider is a "research" mindset. You can allow yourself to research and investigate what separation, divorce, custody, and parenting time would look like in your situation, without that meaning you have to do it, or requiring that you follow through. It's gathering information to help you make some decisions, and just because you're gathering information, doesn't lock you into any particular path. The information you gather may indicate to you "you know what, for specific reasons ABC that I learned, divorce isn't the best plan right now", or it may indicate "even though I didn't know this before, paths XYZ are actually open to me and would be beneficial for the kids".

It can be helpful to call up more than one family/divorce lawyer in your area to discuss your specific situation. Some L's will even talk to you right on that initial phone call for no charge (ours did); you can also set up "initial consultations" with as many L's as you like, where you go in to the office and have 30-60 minutes of sitdown time to learn -- what would likely happen in your area with your circumstances. That doesn't mean you have to retain that L or have to do what that L says. Compare that info to meeting with a couple other L's to average out what might happen.

You can also do a similar "gathering information" process with MH professionals, I would guess. You can consider calling up a counselor or therapist, even specifically a childrens' therapist, describing your situation, and seeing if that professional would be willing to talk with you on the phone about what's going on, or maybe you can do a couple of Zoom appointments or go into the office a few times. You could think about framing it as "I'm really on the fence about how to move forward in healthy way, and I need some outside perspective on what would be best for my kids at their ages; are you able to meet a couple of times for me to share my situation and learn from you what I could do in various paths forward to care for them?"

It would be okay not to discuss these plans with your W. My assumption is that you aren't here to "trick her" or "make her lose" or whatnot -- you want a better path forward for your family. Having a private part of your life where you can work through those questions with professionals isn't "lying" -- it is having privacy and independence as an individual. While it'd be nice if you had a relationship where you and your W could problemsolve those big issues together, the reality of it is that you don't right now, and it doesn't sound like it'd be helping the relationship to try to be "fair" and include her, when she isn't in a place to help. So, consider keeping your research, if you decide to try that, confidential.

I hear you thinking through the 12 year timeline for parenting your kids together. Again, if you decide to do some research, you can maybe in a Google doc plan out a few different timelines for those 12 years -- staying together, separating, divorcing, whatever; brainstorming how things might look and what you'd need to have in place for any or all of those to be feasible.

For some people, having tangible information can really help in decision making -- that's where I'm coming from, so let me know if that's not your "vibe".

[Smedley Butler]

interestingly, some of the advice you've given me here is what has led me to this realization that i think i'm already a step or two down the "considering a future without her in it" road.  i've gotten a little bit of unofficial legal advice.  i've also scheduled a trip to psychologist to discuss these exact issues.  as you probably know from some of my other posts, i'm active duty military, so i have to get a "referral" to see any kind of specialist off base.  in order to get this referral, i have to talk to my on-base primary care doctor first.  she was sort of giving me some generic advice about counseling and couples therapy (i went in to see her initially because i have not been sleeping due to anxiety surrounding this issue - also very unlike me).  however, when i told her that i had suspicions that my wife might be undiagnosed BPD, it was like flipping a switch.  i dont know what this doctor knew from her own personal experience or whatever, but she IMMEDIATELY started handling me differently.  she was suddenly very, very empathetic.  she said she knew the perfect psychologist for me to see, that it was a doctor with extensive experience with BPD/NPD/emotional abuse victims.  i havent seen this new psychologist yet, but i am on her schedule for the end of August (her first availability).  i';m so thankful that my primary care doc just happened to also know alot about BPD - right person in the right place at the right time, i suppose. 

i've committed myself, in my mind at least, to at least two years of continued effort, preparation, study, and solo therapy before i act decisively towards a divorce.  this is a completely arbitrary timeline that i just made up, but it feels right.  4th of July 2025 is my target date to determine what next.  i may or may not rigidly stick to that timeline, but my intention is to give myself some framework and structure to work within in order to prevent myself from making any rash, emotional decisions. 

[livednlearned]

There is a middle path, which is to focus on building emotional resilience in your kids.

Often, we get so emotionally battered in these relationships and many of us work hard to prop our kids up. But BPD symptoms can be insidious in the home and do damage in ways that are often more abusive than what we experience as adults. If you are hurting, your kids are hurting a thousand times more.

I thought I was a really good mom but my son is now 22 so I'm getting notes.  

It wasn't until S22 was 10 that I wrapped my head around validation for him. I was a bit emotionally stunted, to be candid. I raised him the way I was raised. Tough it out. Walk it off. Get yourself to this or that place emotionally (in other words, it's on you to fix this). Turn the other cheek. Put the emotional needs of adults ahead of your own. Definitely don't complain and never ever ever talk about how you feel. Apologize even when you don't understand what you did. Enduring abuse is a sign of strength and worthy of praise.

Once I started validating my son, like really really validating him, things changed. I could kick myself for not understanding earlier how I was inadvertently compounding his dad's abuse.

I also learned how important it was to repair and recover. S22 does not have a personality disorder so following up to talk about something I felt I did poorly, or wrong was met with gratitude, and love.

Their BPD parents cannot provide emotional validation (because they are chronically seeking it for themselves) so we have to provide double.

Emotional validation with kids does not mean giving them what they want. In fact, they need to know there are boundaries because boundaries  = safety. If your kids do not feel loved by their BPD parent, and we say, "Your mom/dad loves you very much" that just messes up what they think love is.

When I first started validating my kid, it kinda felt like I was giving him too much power. Instead, it gave him a way to release intense pressure. It built trust between us. It gave him a remarkably strong sense of self. He's still injured and he has a long way to go, but he's also been badly abused and healing takes time. It's more important to me that he feels he has someone he can trust since that was in short supply for much of his early childhood.

There's a child psychologist who refers to pathogenic parenting, almost like a symptom of BPD in the way those traits manifest in parenting. Your wife may look like a good mom if you run down a checklist, but emotionally she will be hollowing out the girls and setting them up for codependent relationships if not abusive ones without validating them. Validating them emotionally will fill in large chunks of important information about who they are, and they can then use that information to make smart choices in life.

"Doesn't feel good" is a profound piece of information they can use if they date guys who tell them they look like sh!t, and if they trust that feeling, they can use it to exit. Instead of being a dum dum like me who kept seeing red flags and ignoring them because that's what I was raised to do.

Bill Eddy (who is both a social worker and family law attorney) has written two books. One is called Splitting, which is about protecting yourself while divorcing someone with BPD. The other is Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When a Parent Has BPD/NPD.

Another book is I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms. Go hard in the paint on that one. It's gold.

[Smedley Butler]

It wasn't until S22 was 10 that I wrapped my head around validation for him. I was a bit emotionally stunted, to be candid. I raised him the way I was raised. Tough it out. Walk it off. Get yourself to this or that place emotionally (in other words, it's on you to fix this). Turn the other cheek. Put the emotional needs of adults ahead of your own. Definitely don't complain and never ever ever talk about how you feel. Apologize even when you don't understand what you did. Enduring abuse is a sign of strength and worthy of praise.

Once I started validating my son, like really really validating him, things changed. I could kick myself for not understanding earlier how I was inadvertently compounding his dad's abuse.

i cannot thank you enough for this specific passage, which i find to be particularly validating.  my 6 year old daughter has been displaying some pretty significant emotional instability herself - cant self sooth, overreaction to insignificant issues, etc (not unlike my wife).  my instinctual go-to is the same as you - toughen up, walk it off, shake it off, get it together kid.  and perhaps sometimes that IS the correct response.  but with me and her, it was really hard.  i could feel her steadily pulling away from me, not wanting to be close.  she seemed to gravitate towards the emotional rollercoaster of my wife because even though my wife is emotionally unstable, sometimes they were in sync on the same unstable ground (sometimes they werent though, and THAT was chaos).  about two months ago i started reacting absolutely calmly to every crazy emotion my daughter was having, and then just asking her what she was feeling and telling her that it was ok to feel that way.  i stayed calm and stable, and then once her emotional reaction subsided, i was able to have a logical (as logical as you can be with a six year old) talk with her about whatever was going on.  it was like a total light switch.  within two weeks she was noticeably different, and now two months later she is like a different kid.  it's absolutely amazing how such seemingly insignificant little changes in the way we handle little kids are so impactful.  she actually seeks me out now instead of her mom when she is upset.  that NEVER happened before.

[livednlearned]

That is gold what you're doing.

Pure gold.

I suspect validation is what regulates those strong emotions.

My son had "big feelings" as a kid and I also wish I taught him techniques to calm himself. He developed some tics in his early teens that have since disappeared, but so has the intense stress. Body Keeps the Score made me realize how much our bodies try to help us cope with emotions. Whatever I could not apply to a severely disordered ex turned out to be profoundly helpful for my kid.

It's emotional for me when I come across parents who understand this stuff with their kids because it's a chance to change the script.

[Lenfan2]

Smedley Butler:   i havent seen this new psychologist yet, but i am on her schedule for the end of August (her first availability).

How did the appointment go?