Handling guilt vs responsibility

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi all,

Here is a (literal) shower thought that I have been processing for a while now regarding the interactions with my uBPDw and our S9. I would be interested what you think about it, e.g. in relation to the blame game and other behaviors. Maybe we can make something helpful out of this.

One thing I noticed is that they both handle these two concepts quite differently from the way I handle them, and I often feel like I cannot really get through to them. For both of them, these concepts are really almost synonymous if not totally synonymous (hmm, yummy cinnamon ). However, for me, they are very closely related but I know a lot of situations where they aren't synonyms. Still, I also know they are often even used as true synonyms, which further complicates the matter. But in our family, I try to make a more clear distinction between the two, as I found it helps sometimes with communication.

So let me make a personal example that might explain where I see the difference (caveat: foreign language barrier in place, might be interesting to know how this works in your native language):

A while ago I was walking home with our S9 and he stepped into some dog poop. I tried to tell him (nicely and in a very calm voice), that it is important to pay more attention where he steps. But he was immediately offended, that we always blame him if something bad happens and would not take any of the actual advice (note: I am using SET now more often, it works).

The thing is, I didn't really think he was guilty of anything. I didn't want to blame him, did not really feel emotional about him at all. If I'd have to say anyone was to blame, then it clearly was the person who'd let their dog poop on the sidewalk and did not clean it up. But he took it differently, he immediately took it as if I blamed him, and the contact was lost immediately. But I just thought he was responsible for not stepping in poop, because, well, sometimes there just is poop on the sidewalk, even though there shouldn't be, and I cannot look out for him all the time. So if he doesn't take care of it, i.e. takes the responsibility, then he has to clean up his shoes or they will smell. That doesn't mean he is a bad person if it happens, as mistakes just do. It just means that there won't be anyone else doing it for him.

My uBPDw is very similar to our S9 in that regard. I just know if she'd stepped in poop, then she would have come in full rage mode and especially on her bad days have gone into a rant on how much she hates the person that did not clean it up, how bad the world is in general and especially to her, and maybe even have taken out her anger on the kids and me. And then she'd be emotionally exhausted and the shoe would still smell so I'd have to clean it up. I can understand this, as I am also mad at the person who is actually guilty, but I also know that my anger is absolutely not helpful at that moment, it won't at all get me a clean shoe. So if I step into poop, then I am the one responsible for it, blaming others absolutely won't help.

So in the blame game with my W it is often that she just absolutely needs to identify someone guilty. She's even admitted that she believes that there's almost always someone to blame, and if she can identify who it is it helps her direct her anger. For me, that explains why JADE got us into fights very often. For example, during a simple misunderstanding, if I'd just point out that I understood or meant something differently, and thus did not feel like I was to blame for the situation, then she immediately took this to imply that obviously, she must be to blame. Yeah, there always has to be someone for her, so if it isn't me, then it must be her (frustrating circular argument around the corner). But for me, it was just a misunderstanding. These happen, she isn't to blame, I am not to blame, it just happens and now we are responsible for dealing with it.


I can quite well relate to that when I look back at how I handled our family situation. I mean, clearly, I am not to blame for being abused. I mean that would be victim blaming, right? And since I am not to blame, it clearly isn't my responsibility to improve the situation, right? I mean, I just did what I did in previous relationships and it didn't lead to a lot of fights, right? I mean, she's always had these relationships where she'd get into fights with friends, lovers, and family, so clearly it must be her behavior, right? So clearly, she is the one who should be responsible (note: not guilty, I rarely thought that way), right? WRONG! (I am just presenting my inner monologue somewhat sarcastically here, so please don't take a position.) This is something, that this site and the forum really have taught me. I might not be the one to blame, but I am just as responsible for making things better as my W is.

Weirdly enough, my own resistance against victim blaming has kept me from seeing my own responsibility. And I still struggle with this resistance. It does feel bad when our MC or someone else points out, that I could do something different and it might actually improve the situation. Especially if it is a situation where I clearly believe, that I am not to blame. But this way, I make MC much harder on the both of us, than it has to be.

So my own personal experience: Yeah, assigning blame to yourself or another person, really rarely helps. I cannot really recount a situation where I found it did improve anything. Still, I sometimes do it, but I try to work through it and find more effective ways to handle situations. She does it a lot, both to herself as well as to others. It almost never helps. She kind of understands that it doesn't help, we talked about this. Still, she admits that it really something she doesn't feel able to change or handle better, but she is willing to try. She actually has situations where blaming others did help to get out of emotional and psychological abuse or just to deal with it emotionally. So yeah, learned maladaptive behavior.


How do you deal with this in your relationships, families, or even just with yourself? Can you make a clear difference for yourself and others and maybe even find ways to communicate this difference to your pwBPDs? What is your general experience? I would be really interested to hear your stories and learn from them.

[Steppenwolf]

Hi all,

Here is a (literal) shower thought that I have been processing for a while now regarding the interactions with my uBPDw and our S9. I would be interested what you think about it, e.g. in relation to the blame game and other behaviors. Maybe we can make something helpful out of this.

One thing I noticed is that they both handle these two concepts quite differently from the way I handle them, and I often feel like I cannot really get through to them. For both of them, these concepts are really almost synonymous if not totally synonymous (hmm, yummy cinnamon ). However, for me, they are very closely related but I know a lot of situations where they aren't synonyms. Still, I also know they are often even used as true synonyms, which further complicates the matter. But in our family, I try to make a more clear distinction between the two, as I found it helps sometimes with communication.

So let me make a personal example that might explain where I see the difference (caveat: foreign language barrier in place, might be interesting to know how this works in your native language):

A while ago I was walking home with our S9 and he stepped into some dog poop. I tried to tell him (nicely and in a very calm voice), that it is important to pay more attention where he steps. But he was immediately offended, that we always blame him if something bad happens and would not take any of the actual advice (note: I am using SET now more often, it works).

The thing is, I didn't really think he was guilty of anything. I didn't want to blame him, did not really feel emotional about him at all. If I'd have to say anyone was to blame, then it clearly was the person who'd let their dog poop on the sidewalk and did not clean it up. But he took it differently, he immediately took it as if I blamed him, and the contact was lost immediately. But I just thought he was responsible for not stepping in poop, because, well, sometimes there just is poop on the sidewalk, even though there shouldn't be, and I cannot look out for him all the time. So if he doesn't take care of it, i.e. takes the responsibility, then he has to clean up his shoes or they will smell. That doesn't mean he is a bad person if it happens, as mistakes just do. It just means that there won't be anyone else doing it for him.

My uBPDw is very similar to our S9 in that regard. I just know if she'd stepped in poop, then she would have come in full rage mode and especially on her bad days have gone into a rant on how much she hates the person that did not clean it up, how bad the world is in general and especially to her, and maybe even have taken out her anger on the kids and me. And then she'd be emotionally exhausted and the shoe would still smell so I'd have to clean it up. I can understand this, as I am also mad at the person who is actually guilty, but I also know that my anger is absolutely not helpful at that moment, it won't at all get me a clean shoe. So if I step into poop, then I am the one responsible for it, blaming others absolutely won't help.

So in the blame game with my W it is often that she just absolutely needs to identify someone guilty. She's even admitted that she believes that there's almost always someone to blame, and if she can identify who it is it helps her direct her anger. For me, that explains why JADE got us into fights very often. For example, during a simple misunderstanding, if I'd just point out that I understood or meant something differently, and thus did not feel like I was to blame for the situation, then she immediately took this to imply that obviously, she must be to blame. Yeah, there always has to be someone for her, so if it isn't me, then it must be her (frustrating circular argument around the corner). But for me, it was just a misunderstanding. These happen, she isn't to blame, I am not to blame, it just happens and now we are responsible for dealing with it.


I can quite well relate to that when I look back at how I handled our family situation. I mean, clearly, I am not to blame for being abused. I mean that would be victim blaming, right? And since I am not to blame, it clearly isn't my responsibility to improve the situation, right? I mean, I just did what I did in previous relationships and it didn't lead to a lot of fights, right? I mean, she's always had these relationships where she'd get into fights with friends, lovers, and family, so clearly it must be her behavior, right? So clearly, she is the one who should be responsible (note: not guilty, I rarely thought that way), right? WRONG! (I am just presenting my inner monologue somewhat sarcastically here, so please don't take a position.) This is something, that this site and the forum really have taught me. I might not be the one to blame, but I am just as responsible for making things better as my W is.

Weirdly enough, my own resistance against victim blaming has kept me from seeing my own responsibility. And I still struggle with this resistance. It does feel bad when our MC or someone else points out, that I could do something different and it might actually improve the situation. Especially if it is a situation where I clearly believe, that I am not to blame. But this way, I make MC much harder on the both of us, than it has to be.

So my own personal experience: Yeah, assigning blame to yourself or another person, really rarely helps. I cannot really recount a situation where I found it did improve anything. Still, I sometimes do it, but I try to work through it and find more effective ways to handle situations. She does it a lot, both to herself as well as to others. It almost never helps. She kind of understands that it doesn't help, we talked about this. Still, she admits that it really something she doesn't feel able to change or handle better, but she is willing to try. She actually has situations where blaming others did help to get out of emotional and psychological abuse or just to deal with it emotionally. So yeah, learned maladaptive behavior.


How do you deal with this in your relationships, families, or even just with yourself? Can you make a clear difference for yourself and others and maybe even find ways to communicate this difference to your pwBPDs? What is your general experience? I would be really interested to hear your stories and learn from them.

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[Pook075]

How do you deal with this in your relationships, families, or even just with yourself?

Hi and thanks for sharing! 

In your example, I grimaced just a bit when you told your son to watch where he was walking.  While it's true that he should be paying attention, he's a 9 year old kid and his mind was probably a million miles away. Is he at fault? Sure. But you're equally at fault for being the adult in the situation and not spotting the poop yourself.

In terms of how I deal with BPD relationships, I always try to spot the poop and lovingly reassure my family that they have to step around it.  When my BPD ex or daughter starts to go off the rails over something that's happening in her life, I calmly reassure them and gently ask for more information, because I see that big pile of poop that's to come if I don't help them get through this now. 

The poop is the constant, it's always there, and we can choose to let them step in it or side-step around it. The time it takes to de-escalate a bad situation is always so much easier than what comes after they have life's poop on their shoes, so I try to be proactive regardless of who's fault it is and what the fallout might be.

Why? Because I love them, that's why.  Love isn't based on blame or righteousness.  Love is a choice and I do my very best to choose it every time since it avoids all the negative emotions (for myself and others) that will come afterwards.

[Cat Familiar]

I’m a poop pointer-outer (metaphorically, not literally). And that still gets me in hot water with my husband, as he takes it to mean that I assume he’s too dumb/oblivious/unaware/fill in the blank to notice it himself. So I vary from pointing it out, knowing that I could be inciting some unpleasant response, or letting him step in it (which I might do if I don’t think there’s serious consequences).

[Steppenwolf]

Interesting, that this now turned into a discussion on life's poop. That wasn't what I intended, but I'll just roll with it.

In your example, I grimaced just a bit when you told your son to watch where he was walking.  While it's true that he should be paying attention, he's a 9 year old kid and his mind was probably a million miles away. Is he at fault? Sure. But you're equally at fault for being the adult in the situation and not spotting the poop yourself.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make. So yeah, sure his mind was probably a million miles away. And that's absolutely OK, he's a kid. Even for adults, it's OK if they are spacing out. I wouldn't say he was at fault, neither was I. That was the point. If I as an adult step into poop, then either I clean up my shoes or I will smell bad. Trying to figure out who is at fault, is it me or someone else, won't get me clean shoes. So I just have to deal with it.

So yeah, as a father, of course, I watch out for the poop. This was more like a "careful, watch your ste... oh, too late." type of moment. But I told him, that he'll have to clean his shoes with me helping him and learn to watch his step more carefully, or he'll have to clean his shoes more often. But all he focused on was the unfairness, that I am blaming him for things that he's not a fault for etc. It wasn't my intention to blame him for anything. It's just that life is unfair and we have to handle situations where we are not at fault. He is bad at handling this. My W is very very bad at handling the unfairness of life. So I am a constant poop cleaner for the family and it drains me. And I don't know how to set boundaries here, without me being the one (in their mind) that is blaming them. How to help them accept the occasional unfairness of life and how to help them to stop blocking themselves from acting for themselves when they get emotional about this.

In terms of how I deal with BPD relationships, I always try to spot the poop and lovingly reassure my family that they have to step around it.  When my BPD ex or daughter starts to go off the rails over something that's happening in her life, I calmly reassure them and gently ask for more information, because I see that big pile of poop that's to come if I don't help them get through this now. 

I'd love to be a poop spotter like you, and I have tried. But it has led to a living hell for all of us. I mean, my W isn't really bad at spotting poop. Most of the time she can be the greatest poop spotter in the world. She can spot even the slightest bird poop in a five-mile radius, even before it has happened. It's part of her light paranoid thinking patterns, and also fits very well with the type of overprotective narcissistic abuse she went through during her childhood. But if I don't manage it, it gets absolutely suffocating. It is this type of overprotective pattern, like "if we let our son play by himself, then he'll explore the world, and if he notices the world is something one can explore, he might also try out drugs when he is older and then he'll become a total drug addict. So if we want to protect our son from drugs, then we cannot give him any freedom whatsoever." I cannot really argue with that (no JADE, that's been a bad path I went down too often in the past from there). SET somewhat works with this, but I am still practicing and finding the right words. But becoming a stronger poop spotter myself is taken as participation and reinforcement by her and can quickly send her into paranoid overdrive. That has brought us to a point where I was more than only enabling and actually participating in the abuse, and as soon as I noticed what I was doing I swore this must never happen again and we have to find a way to change our family.

Still, she is weirdly obsessed with all the poop she sees in her mind, and often she overlooks the big pile of cow manure right in front of her. E.g. she has severe trust issues, that she is even aware of. She constantly is afraid that people will betray her, and that she needs to protect the kids, herself, and me (I think in that order, but it might also change from time to time). Then at other times, she sees that dark alleyway in the worst part of town during the middle of the night and thinks it is completely safe, with no danger whatsoever. Again this fits with what she has learned, being overprotected/abused in some regards where it fed the narcissistic patterns of her mother, but absolutely no protection in situations where she'd actually needed it, like being left alone with bullying from her classmates.

The poop is the constant, it's always there, and we can choose to let them step in it or side-step around it. The time it takes to de-escalate a bad situation is always so much easier than what comes after they have life's poop on their shoes, so I try to be proactive regardless of who's fault it is and what the fallout might be.

I feel completely double-bound in this regard. On the one hand, as long as I clean up the poop, then it's ok for my W and she can somewhat handle it. But that way she easily takes advantage of me, and it easily gets to a point where I forget to take care of myself. One reason I came here is that I really hit rock bottom. Just telling her that I am about to hit rock bottom, I am becoming burned out from the constant stream of poop I have to clean up, and trying to set a boundary so far hasn't worked. Then she plays the blame game I am trying to understand because by asking her to clean up the poop herself I am somehow implying she is a fault and then it's ok to go mad at me or ask for a divorce. Weirdly enough, as soon as I really hit rock bottom and had a full-blown panic attack then she immediately got the message. It's as if it's something I cannot say to her but only show. But I don't want a have a panic attack each time before she cleans up the poop on her own shoes. That'd be definitely unhealthy for me.

On the other hand, if I try to navigate her around the cow manure in front of us, she feels invalidated, because to her it means I don't see the bird PLEASE READ in the distance and I am not supporting her. So I really have to find a way to SET this and to SET a way out of this double-bind.

[kells76]

Hi Steppenwolf;

I've been thinking about your interaction with your son, and while I know it wasn't necessarily the main focus of your post, there may be some new approaches you could try with him, that you could also think about with your W. So, small focus, but possibly larger application.

A while ago I was walking home with our S9 and he stepped into some dog poop. I tried to tell him (nicely and in a very calm voice), that it is important to pay more attention where he steps. But he was immediately offended, that we always blame him if something bad happens and would not take any of the actual advice (note: I am using SET now more often, it works).

The thing is, I didn't really think he was guilty of anything. I didn't want to blame him, did not really feel emotional about him at all. If I'd have to say anyone was to blame, then it clearly was the person who'd let their dog poop on the sidewalk and did not clean it up. But he took it differently, he immediately took it as if I blamed him, and the contact was lost immediately. But I just thought he was responsible for not stepping in poop, because, well, sometimes there just is poop on the sidewalk, even though there shouldn't be, and I cannot look out for him all the time. So if he doesn't take care of it, i.e. takes the responsibility, then he has to clean up his shoes or they will smell. That doesn't mean he is a bad person if it happens, as mistakes just do. It just means that there won't be anyone else doing it for him.

Kids who grow up with a parent with a PD may be "primed" to be very sensitive to what feels like, or what comes across as, blame/shame -- regardless of what was meant or intended. This could be because that child was the "all bad" or "scapegoat" child, or it could be for other reasons related to the child's individual personality plus the dysfunctional family structure that a parent with a PD contributes to.

Both my H's kids have a mom with many PD traits. Both are sensitive to shame/blame, though our oldest does well with direct (what could sound brusque) instructions (like "Please turn off your light before we go"). Our youngest is much more sensitive and does better with instructions containing a lot of empathy and flexibility (like "When you have a free moment, will you please turn off your light, if you haven't already?")

I suspect your son may be sensitive to interactions that to him -- regardless of what was intended -- feel like shame/blame. And -- a statement can feel shame-y and blame-y when there isn't enough empathy. People have differing levels of need for empathy/validation. Your son may have higher needs there than you do, which might create a mismatch: you would never try to shame or blame him -- I know this, you know this -- and yet, you can say things that come across to him as shaming/blaming.

Like you said, you're trying more SET with him, and that's a good move. Maybe we can replay that interaction with him and you can share if you think this approach could help:

So he steps in the poop, and you wanted to help. You're thinking of helping him have a poop-free life, and you know it's a hassle to clean off shoes.

You said, as nicely as possible, something like: "It's important to pay attention to where you step".

That's where he got offended, said something like "You always blame me", and then was resistant to any further instruction/advice.

What stood out for me up there was the line (again, if I got it wrong, correct me): "It's important to pay attention to where you step." To me, that read as the "explanation" part of JADE. Whether we mean to or not, when we "explain" to someone who is sensitive, it can come across as wounding and invalidating. So it doesn't surprise me that he moved to defend himself.

A different approach would take a longer path, full of togetherness/empathy/validation, before arriving at the "instructions/explanation" destination.

It could look like:

He steps in the poo,

You say: "What a bummer... doesn't it suck to step in poop? I hate it too!" Empathy and validation.

This creates togetherness. You are sharing that you understand him. It's not like he wanted to step in it or meant to --who would? You are communicating to him: "I understand you, you aren't different, we're alike, I get it".

Depending on how he responds (maybe he says something like "it's so gross" or "I hate that someone left it there"), you could make another "we're together" statement that gives him a real choice (i.e. one that you have already decided in your mind you are okay with giving):

"Do you want to try to clean it off here, or wait until we are in the yard at home? I can help you find a faucet around here if you want."

This would give him age-appropriate empowerment and responsibility. You aren't saying "you can pick whether or not to clean your shoes", and you aren't saying "I guess I'll do it for you". You're tacitly communicating: yeah, it's your job to clean your shoes... but you aren't alone in it, I'll help you find resources.

Maybe then he says something like "I don't care, I just want to go home."

You could say: "That's fine buddy, when we get home, I'll turn the hose on for you outside. Do you want soap and a rag, too, or just water?"

Again -- you're finding an appropriate way to support him, without overfunctioning, and you're giving him another real choice.

...

Anyway -- we have had to do that with our youngest. Lots, and lots, and lots of "Wow, that's a lot to go through... how did you feel when she said that about you... what do you think you'll do when you see her again..." and very, very little "you need to be more careful about the friends you make."

We have a "long runway" of validation and empathy before the "instruction flight" can take off!

Would be curious if finding ways to "come alongside" your son could help him be more open to instructions.