Well looks like divorce is finally happening

[mikejones75093]

Personally, I unplugged when I went through this - zero social media posting.

That said, if you are compelled to respond or make some statement, here's a variation on SaltyDog's theme:

"Friends, I am taking a break from social media for the foreseeable future. Please do not hesitate to reach out directly, anytime, especially if you have concerns or questions about any other posts you may see online. Thank you for your understanding and for respecting our privacy at this difficult time for our family."

Of course, find your own voice - but keep in mind:  Anything you post is for your judge. 

Your friends and family and stbx are all secondary audience.  Don't post ANYTHING that isn't written with your judge front and center in your mind, and definitely don't post anything when you have an elevated heart rate.

One day at a time. 

Good job getting through the RO hearing.

It's funny how people like her can make you feel like a complete piece of crap.  Then you stop and think about it, I don't do anything wrong.   I work, hang out with my kids and go to practices games.  The hardest part is staying calm and not asking what are you thinking.  The calmer I stay it seems the more emotional she becomes, and the more chance for mistakes.

[SaltyDawg]

It's funny how people like her can make you feel like a complete piece of crap.  Then you stop and think about it, I don't do anything wrong.   I work, hang out with my kids and go to practices games.  The hardest part is staying calm and not asking what are you thinking.  The calmer I stay it seems the more emotional she becomes, and the more chance for mistakes.

Don't let her know that she it getting under your skin.  Appear to remain happy and oblivious, and it will make her even more emotional.  She needs to be in control of you, your emotions, and if you aren't giving her any feedback on this it will make her more emotional with bigger chances of mistakes for you to document.  Remaining cool and calm will more than likely work in your favor.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[mikejones75093]

Don't let her know that she it getting under your skin.  Appear to remain happy and oblivious, and it will make her even more emotional.  She needs to be in control of you, your emotions, and if you aren't giving her any feedback on this it will make her more emotional with bigger chances of mistakes for you to document.  Remaining cool and calm will more than likely work in your favor.

Take care with self-care.

SD

I appreciate it.  That is the goal.  I'm calm and cool, completely emotionless right now.  It hasn't hit me.  Once this is all over its going to hurt.  Have a lot of friends and family checking on me daily so that should help.

[SaltyDawg]

I appreciate it.  That is the goal.  I'm calm and cool, completely emotionless right now.  It hasn't hit me.  Once this is all over its going to hurt.  Have a lot of friends and family checking on me daily so that should help.

Sounds like you have an excellent support system, I am not so lucky as mine was successful in isolating me from friends (she accused me of cheating on her with them, so I stopped maintaining those friendships over a decade ago, first the opposite sex, then the same sex ones) - my biggest mistake ever in this relationship - due to her "temporary paranoid thoughts ... triggered by stress", the 9th symptom of BPD.

Take care.

Take care with self care.

[mikejones75093]

Sounds like you have an excellent support system, I am not so lucky as mine was successful in isolating me from friends (she accused me of cheating on her with them, so I stopped maintaining those friendships over a decade ago, first the opposite sex, then the same sex ones) - my biggest mistake ever in this relationship - due to her "temporary paranoid thoughts ... triggered by stress", the 9th symptom of BPD.

Take care.

Take care with self care.

Before I knew what bpd was I thought she was paranoid.  Always thinking people were screwing her over some how.

How is it now?  She still come after you?

[SaltyDawg]

Before I knew what bpd was I thought she was paranoid.  Always thinking people were screwing her over some how.

How is it now?  She still come after you?

For me it was different, before I knew what BPD was, she was transferring and projecting her own insecurities symptoms and traits on to me as being mine - which f**ked with my head.

After my youngest child launches in 6 to 7 years, unless there is full remission as defined by the NIH, I will likely be seeking a divorce.  My wife knows this, and she has been making some progress.

She is partially self-aware.  She knows of more than enough of the symptoms to make a self-diagnosis (5 or more - see below), yet she refuses to see the connection, which is very frustrating for me, as the couple's therapist sees it too, yet won't make a diagnosis (I suspect that they fear chasing the client away) yet we are addressing most of these issues, except where her feelings don't match the facts which results in psychological abuse towards me, which I try to sidestep most of the time instead of being the victim in the drama triangle.

So, yes, she does still come after me on an emotional/psychological/verbal level; however, with a lot of work in the past 15 months, she has made a 1/3 to 1/2 progress in putting her BPD symptoms into remission.  For instance there has been no more suicidal ideation/gestures/attempts since May of 2022.  She no longer comes after me physically in which she hits/punches/kicks me, no more physical violence just passing a year of being DV free just a few days ago. 

Here is a list of the symptoms for BPD, and my personal observations on where she is with each of them.

  Desperate efforts to avoid abandonment (actual or imagined) - Significant reduction in the outward expression of this symptom, still there, but less impactful than it was a year ago.  She is fully self-aware of this symptom as are the therapists.

  Unstable, intense relationships that alternate between idealizing and devaluing the other person - as I have set up firm boundaries, this has shifted to our children, where I setup additional boundaries, and then shifted for the worse with her coworkers (job and volunteer) who she gets triggered by almost on a daily basis as I have created boundaries at home.  At home this has seen significant improvement, the most recent major event took place in March of this year with me, even though it continues at a muted level with our children.  I cannot setup boundaries for people outside of the home; therefore, she will have to continue to suffer the natural consequences of her actions there until she can figure this out.  She is partially self-aware of this symptom and continues to struggle with it.  This has been witnessed first hand by the couple's therapist, a full narcissistic abuse cycle - the look on the therapist's face was priceless when this happened in front of her eyes - I felt very validated, but also disheartened when that happened.

  An unstable self-image or sense of self - with the help of her therapist this has morphed almost into a narcissistic level of having grandiose sense of self, which has stalled her recovery - it is either all or nothing here, and needs to be a shade of gray.  She was self-aware of this, but thinks she has the conquered it, but in reality she hasn't.  For me this is frustrating.

  Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving) - she was much more impulsive in other areas, like anger, and mood swings - there has been improvement in this area.  Partially self-aware of some of the behaviors.  Therapist may be partially aware of this symptom; however, my wife's OCPD offsets the financial abuse aspect of this, and other areas have been reduced.  This is the one set of symptoms that are present, but perhaps not at a disordered level, unlike the others.

  Repeated suicidal behavior and/or gestures or threats or self-mutilation - In preliminary remission since May 2022.  Fully self-aware.  She never had the symptom of 'self-mutilation' this is the only symptom my wife does not have (unless you count biting her fingernails until they are bloody).  Therapists are aware of these symptoms relating to suicidal behaviors.

  Rapid changes in mood, lasting usually only a few hours and rarely more than a few days - Still has these; however, major improvement as it no longer coincides with the 'Problems controlling anger' symptom.  Partially self-aware to make some improvement, but improvement has stalled.  This symptom has morphed from being a few hours to up to 2 days.  The therapist are aware of this symptom but they intentionally downplay it.  I am quite angry it is being discounted when it is so impactful.

  Persistent feelings of emptiness - no perceivable change in this symptom and this is the symptom that is blocking progress in other areas that she is not self-aware.  She is fully self-aware of her feelings of emptiness which manifest in the form of feeling that I do not love her which in turn impedes any further progress towards reconciliation as she feels that she cannot trust me.  Therapists are aware of this symptom as well.

  Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger  Major improvement here, still has inappropriately intense anger (greatly reduced from a few times per day, to a few times per month); however, she no longer has issues controlling anger (in preliminary remission).  She is fully self aware of both of these symptoms.  Therapists are aware of these symptoms and the progress that has been made.

  Temporary paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms triggered by stress - This is the area where her feelings do not match the facts.  Had a major event in the past week to unpack in couple's therapy hopefully to shine a better spotlight to hopefully improve her self-awareness of this symptom of paranoia.  Dissociative symptoms, by definition she cannot be self-aware even though the couple's therapists have repeatedly seen this while in session.


We've come a long way, but still have a long way to go; about 1/3 to 1/2 way there and about 1/2 to 2/3 to go towards complete remission of symptoms.

Initial remission is defined as 2 or more months of 1 or fewer symptoms.
Complete remission is defined as 2 or more years of 2 or fewer symptoms.

I am using both the 2 month and 2 year clinical metrics to evaluate the progress my wife has for each of the symptoms.  Since her therapists have not shared a specific plan on treating my wife, so I feel the need to have to do it myself, as they apparently feel the need to keep me excluded from this, so I have to change what I can and figure out what I cannot change on my own.  My own individual therapist(s), BPD Family, CODA meetings, NAMI meetings, and my related volunteer work have been instrumental in helping me navigate the nearly impossible recovery process of my wife who is not formally diagnosed, but is being treated for some of the individual symptoms, even though she and her therapists are well aware of 5 or more of the symptom groups, the minimum criteria for making a diagnosis.

I am in a different place than you are in the relationship with my wife.  Trying to make it better, but also at the same time in a process of detaching to the point if she does follow through on her divorce threats I won't be quite as hurt, and I am planning on divorce if things don't continue to improve to a point as defined by the NIH where they aught to be. 

Hopefully I answered your question on does she "still come after you" - I was referring to abuse in general.  If you are referring specifically to a smear campaign, I have shut that down with the couple's therapist, as my wife has accused me of child abuse  (that was supposedly witnessed in front of mandated reporters).  The therapist is a former CPS LCSW and was able to shut that down for me when I let my wife hang herself with her own rope in expressing her feelings that did not match the facts which were contradictory to her feelings.  The thing is my wife genuinely believed I was abusing our child (I was disciplining him by removing him by the hand from an assembly at school, in front of the principle and teachers, all mandated reporters, where he was having a hangry tantrum in the 1st grade); however, the couple's therapist determined that there was no basis of child abuse; thereby, effectively shutting down my wife's false narrative based on her genuine feelings I was hurting our child - that is how insidious a borderline's mind will work.  I can foresee that she can also make these false accusations of me, and has done so a few times when she was upset with me - if she makes a false statement like that, I need to come up with an effective strategy to counter those false allegations.

Your wife believes what she is telling her version of the truth when she is sharing with her friends, and that makes it extremely convincing, even though it is a false narrative from your perspective and most reasonable adults.  The court and professionals will focus on the facts behind those feelings to make their rulings and assessments.  Unfortunately, those who are not professionals in this area can be swayed by the convincing feelings of a person with borderline, and that is where damage control aught to be done.  Very targeted, just enough to discredit the false facts, without becoming vindictive towards the person making those impassioned false narratives.  This is how I am handling this abuse, and it takes an excessive amount of energy on my part to manage.

Have questions, please ask.  Otherwise, take care with self-care.  For me that includes looking after my own reputation and doing damage control.

SD

[mikejones75093]

For me it was different, before I knew what BPD was, she was transferring and projecting her own insecurities symptoms and traits on to me as being mine - which f**ked with my head.

After my youngest child launches in 6 to 7 years, unless there is full remission as defined by the NIH, I will likely be seeking a divorce.  My wife knows this, and she has been making some progress.

She is partially self-aware.  She knows of more than enough of the symptoms to make a self-diagnosis (5 or more - see below), yet she refuses to see the connection, which is very frustrating for me, as the couple's therapist sees it too, yet won't make a diagnosis (I suspect that they fear chasing the client away) yet we are addressing most of these issues, except where her feelings don't match the facts which results in psychological abuse towards me, which I try to sidestep most of the time instead of being the victim in the drama triangle.

So, yes, she does still come after me on an emotional/psychological/verbal level; however, with a lot of work in the past 15 months, she has made a 1/3 to 1/2 progress in putting her BPD symptoms into remission.  For instance there has been no more suicidal ideation/gestures/attempts since May of 2022.  She no longer comes after me physically in which she hits/punches/kicks me, no more physical violence just passing a year of being DV free just a few days ago. 

Here is a list of the symptoms for BPD, and my personal observations on where she is with each of them.

  Desperate efforts to avoid abandonment (actual or imagined) - Significant reduction in the outward expression of this symptom, still there, but less impactful than it was a year ago.  She is fully self-aware of this symptom as are the therapists.

  Unstable, intense relationships that alternate between idealizing and devaluing the other person - as I have set up firm boundaries, this has shifted to our children, where I setup additional boundaries, and then shifted for the worse with her coworkers (job and volunteer) who she gets triggered by almost on a daily basis as I have created boundaries at home.  At home this has seen significant improvement, the most recent major event took place in March of this year with me, even though it continues at a muted level with our children.  I cannot setup boundaries for people outside of the home; therefore, she will have to continue to suffer the natural consequences of her actions there until she can figure this out.  She is partially self-aware of this symptom and continues to struggle with it.  This has been witnessed first hand by the couple's therapist, a full narcissistic abuse cycle - the look on the therapist's face was priceless when this happened in front of her eyes - I felt very validated, but also disheartened when that happened.

  An unstable self-image or sense of self - with the help of her therapist this has morphed almost into a narcissistic level of having grandiose sense of self, which has stalled her recovery - it is either all or nothing here, and needs to be a shade of gray.  She was self-aware of this, but thinks she has the conquered it, but in reality she hasn't.  For me this is frustrating.

  Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving) - she was much more impulsive in other areas, like anger, and mood swings - there has been improvement in this area.  Partially self-aware of some of the behaviors.  Therapist may be partially aware of this symptom; however, my wife's OCPD offsets the financial abuse aspect of this, and other areas have been reduced.  This is the one set of symptoms that are present, but perhaps not at a disordered level, unlike the others.

  Repeated suicidal behavior and/or gestures or threats or self-mutilation - In preliminary remission since May 2022.  Fully self-aware.  She never had the symptom of 'self-mutilation' this is the only symptom my wife does not have (unless you count biting her fingernails until they are bloody).  Therapists are aware of these symptoms relating to suicidal behaviors.

  Rapid changes in mood, lasting usually only a few hours and rarely more than a few days - Still has these; however, major improvement as it no longer coincides with the 'Problems controlling anger' symptom.  Partially self-aware to make some improvement, but improvement has stalled.  This symptom has morphed from being a few hours to up to 2 days.  The therapist are aware of this symptom but they intentionally downplay it.  I am quite angry it is being discounted when it is so impactful.

  Persistent feelings of emptiness - no perceivable change in this symptom and this is the symptom that is blocking progress in other areas that she is not self-aware.  She is fully self-aware of her feelings of emptiness which manifest in the form of feeling that I do not love her which in turn impedes any further progress towards reconciliation as she feels that she cannot trust me.  Therapists are aware of this symptom as well.

  Inappropriately intense anger or problems controlling anger  Major improvement here, still has inappropriately intense anger (greatly reduced from a few times per day, to a few times per month); however, she no longer has issues controlling anger (in preliminary remission).  She is fully self aware of both of these symptoms.  Therapists are aware of these symptoms and the progress that has been made.

  Temporary paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms triggered by stress - This is the area where her feelings do not match the facts.  Had a major event in the past week to unpack in couple's therapy hopefully to shine a better spotlight to hopefully improve her self-awareness of this symptom of paranoia.  Dissociative symptoms, by definition she cannot be self-aware even though the couple's therapists have repeatedly seen this while in session.


We've come a long way, but still have a long way to go; about 1/3 to 1/2 way there and about 1/2 to 2/3 to go towards complete remission of symptoms.

Initial remission is defined as 2 or more months of 1 or fewer symptoms.
Complete remission is defined as 2 or more years of 2 or fewer symptoms.

I am using both the 2 month and 2 year clinical metrics to evaluate the progress my wife has for each of the symptoms.  Since her therapists have not shared a specific plan on treating my wife, so I feel the need to have to do it myself, as they apparently feel the need to keep me excluded from this, so I have to change what I can and figure out what I cannot change on my own.  My own individual therapist(s), BPD Family, CODA meetings, NAMI meetings, and my related volunteer work have been instrumental in helping me navigate the nearly impossible recovery process of my wife who is not formally diagnosed, but is being treated for some of the individual symptoms, even though she and her therapists are well aware of 5 or more of the symptom groups, the minimum criteria for making a diagnosis.

I am in a different place than you are in the relationship with my wife.  Trying to make it better, but also at the same time in a process of detaching to the point if she does follow through on her divorce threats I won't be quite as hurt, and I am planning on divorce if things don't continue to improve to a point as defined by the NIH where they aught to be. 

Hopefully I answered your question on does she "still come after you" - I was referring to abuse in general.  If you are referring specifically to a smear campaign, I have shut that down with the couple's therapist, as my wife has accused me of child abuse  (that was supposedly witnessed in front of mandated reporters).  The therapist is a former CPS LCSW and was able to shut that down for me when I let my wife hang herself with her own rope in expressing her feelings that did not match the facts which were contradictory to her feelings.  The thing is my wife genuinely believed I was abusing our child (I was disciplining him by removing him by the hand from an assembly at school, in front of the principle and teachers, all mandated reporters, where he was having a hangry tantrum in the 1st grade); however, the couple's therapist determined that there was no basis of child abuse; thereby, effectively shutting down my wife's false narrative based on her genuine feelings I was hurting our child - that is how insidious a borderline's mind will work.  I can foresee that she can also make these false accusations of me, and has done so a few times when she was upset with me - if she makes a false statement like that, I need to come up with an effective strategy to counter those false allegations.

Your wife believes what she is telling her version of the truth when she is sharing with her friends, and that makes it extremely convincing, even though it is a false narrative from your perspective and most reasonable adults.  The court and professionals will focus on the facts behind those feelings to make their rulings and assessments.  Unfortunately, those who are not professionals in this area can be swayed by the convincing feelings of a person with borderline, and that is where damage control aught to be done.  Very targeted, just enough to discredit the false facts, without becoming vindictive towards the person making those impassioned false narratives.  This is how I am handling this abuse, and it takes an excessive amount of energy on my part to manage.

Have questions, please ask.  Otherwise, take care with self-care.  For me that includes looking after my own reputation and doing damage control.

SD

Ok didn't realize you're still together.  Coming after you I meant try and control even though you were apart.  Mine tells me the only reason I want to be with her is because she's easy to control. Hahaha wow.  Shes never been controlled.   Not only that,  we are in the middle of divorce and right after telling me she's controlled proceeded to give me a list of things im not allowed to do, wow.  Dont know what dealing with this person will be like after divorce sharing kids

I know if I didn't have kids I would be gone.  My back and forth is,  do you stay for the kids, and there are a lot of different answers.  I have an adult son who has been in the trenches with me and knows all about his mom.  We joke that she always needs someone to argue with,  and if she's arguing with one of us, the other is on good terms with her.  My concern is, if I'm not there to take the blows she will take it out on the kids.  Also borderlines don't like to be alone, how soon before she moves in some guy to help pay her bills, and really what kind of a person is this?  Scares me to think the kids might be around this.

[ForeverDad]

My concern is, if I'm not there to take the blows she will take it out on the kids.  Also borderlines don't like to be alone, how soon before she moves in some guy to help pay her bills, and really what kind of a person is this?  Scares me to think the kids might be around this.

Everything about our lives involves seeking a balance.  (What follows is a generic scenario and may apply to you only in part.)  You're concerned about your spouse turning their abusive or warped projections onto your kids if you're not there to monitor.  Well, news flash.  You're probably already leaving the kids in spouse's care some of the time in your daily activities.  Do you go to the gym, go shopping, visit friends, take your vehicle to the repair shop, go to work, etc?  See?

Remember I mentioned balance, right?  Well, consider that your parenting example also influences the children.  What if the kids see you appeasing, twisting yourself into knots, struggling on so many things daily?  That's not an example of what a healthy home environment should be.  There's a decades old quip I found.

And for the children to see this discord all the time isn't good for them even if it's not directed at them.  Children learn by example.  If this dysfunctional example is their home life growing up, what life choices will they make seeking relationships when they're grown and gone?

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

On the topic of being cast as a controller by a spouse projecting her own control impulses... My then-stbEx's lawyer was pretty slick, almost caught me off guard with what I later concluded was a trick question.

When I had first separated, my then-spouse burnt all bridges.  In family court her lawyer asked me, "Do you want her back?"  Somehow I sensed it as a trick question, if I said "Yes" then he would turn to the magistrate and excitedly proclaim, "See? He's a controller. He wants her back under his control."  Instead I replied, "No, not as she is."

Yet, I had not "given up and left her" until there was no other option.  By nature we here were not and are not controllers.  Yes, we don't give up hastily, we do try to help, endlessly, but it's not in a controlling way, no matter how much the other spouse may claim.

I'm fairly sure your question was triggered by your spouse's spiteful words, right?  There's a word for that... Projection.  If that's what your spouse is claiming, then she is projecting her perceptions and actions onto you, in a way, Blame Shifting.

[mikejones75093]

Everything about our lives involves seeking a balance.  (What follows is a generic scenario and may apply to you only in part.)  You're concerned about your spouse turning their abusive or warped projections onto your kids if you're not there to monitor.  Well, news flash.  You're probably already leaving the kids in spouse's care some of the time in your daily activities.  Do you go to the gym, go shopping, visit friends, take your vehicle to the repair shop, go to work, etc?  See?

Remember I mentioned balance, right?  Well, consider that your parenting example also influences the children.  What if the kids see you appeasing, twisting yourself into knots, struggling on so many things daily?  That's not an example of what a healthy home environment should be.  There's a decades old quip I found.

On the topic of being cast as a controller by a spouse projecting her own control impulses... My then-stbEx's lawyer was pretty slick, almost caught me off guard with what I later concluded was a trick question.

Good stuff.  Just trying to stay strong.  The thought of bring alone or having to date again sounds horrible.   Maybe I'm holding on because of my own fears.

[SaltyDawg]

Ok didn't realize you're still together.  Coming after you I meant try and control even though you were apart.  Mine tells me the only reason I want to be with her is because she's easy to control. Hahaha wow.  Shes never been controlled.   Not only that,  we are in the middle of divorce and right after telling me she's controlled proceeded to give me a list of things im not allowed to do, wow.  Dont know what dealing with this person will be like after divorce sharing kids

I know if I didn't have kids I would be gone.  My back and forth is,  do you stay for the kids, and there are a lot of different answers.  I have an adult son who has been in the trenches with me and knows all about his mom.  We joke that she always needs someone to argue with,  and if she's arguing with one of us, the other is on good terms with her.  My concern is, if I'm not there to take the blows she will take it out on the kids.  Also borderlines don't like to be alone, how soon before she moves in some guy to help pay her bills, and really what kind of a person is this?  Scares me to think the kids might be around this.

Yes, we are still together, she has made significant progress, even though it appears to have stalled for the moment, but it is not regressing.

Regarding the control issues, my wife knows she is a controller.  I have labelled her a 'control freak' and she begrudgingly 'owns it', and most of her job titles that she has held in the past have the word 'controller' in it.

She has attempted to say I am a controller her; however, each time she does that - I ask her a pointed question on who made such and such choice - it is her.  When she ask me to make decisions, I do, and then she immediately overrides these decisions, as long as they don't have negative impacts, I let her.

If we were to get divorced, my wife would want to control every aspect of it.  They are so out of control of their own emotions, so whatever, they can control provides them with emotional comfort, and if they cannot control it, it induces anxiety.

The primary reason why I am still with my wife is for the kids, here is a quote from another thread I made:

   The primary reason why I'm still in this relationship is my wife had already telegraphed she would get really mean with her false narratives (starting with false allegations of child abuse, which I have had our couple's therapist already debunk as she is a former CPS (child protective services) LCSW (licensed clinical social worker) - while my wife's feelings were real [to her] when I was disciplining my then 1st grader in front of teachers and the principle at a school program (all of whom are mandated reporters, and didn't report since there was nothing to report) to lead him firmly out of the cafeteria by the hand under my 1st grader's protests to stop the interruption of the program - the couple's therapist did not see any issue and said my wife's allegation would have been 'unfounded' if CPS evaluated it.  Fortunately 3 out of the 4 allegations she has accused me of were in front of mandated reporters where there were around embarrassing behaviors, so she was all stressed out which put her emotions feeling into wild state of over-exaggeration that feels real to her. 

   She has also made other false accusations about me towards her as well, such as DV, which is untrue, and I am recording many of our heated discussions should they come to light, I have irrefutable evidence to the contrary.  So it is a huge F, in the Fear, Obligation, and Guilt that I am remaining in the relationship as I do not want to ruin any more of our children's childhood anymore that it already has been done, and continue to repair it.

   Due to the speed of divorce litigation where I live, I do not want to engage in divorce at the moment as that will most likely result in severe dysregulation directed against our children by my wife (she has shown signs, and I am running interception on this, and setting and enforcing boundaries around this).  Also, my wife has indicated a willingness to work towards bettering the relationship, even though it has stalled at the moment and needs to resume. 

   If she were to escalate other false narratives it would be devastating to our children as well as myself as her impassioned over-exaggerated statements are very believable unless closely evaluated - but then the damage would already be done for months if not years down the road where my name would eventually be cleared.  I am also maneuvering our finances to reduce the financial hit of our co-mingled monies should divorce occur in order to make the playing field a little more level.  It is unfortunate that the 'kangaroo' court system of family law imposes this outcome on men unless it is overabundant-ly clear my wife has a mental illness, which her therapists will not do, even though all of her behaviors and symptoms indicate otherwise.

   At least until my children are out of the house and in college, I can work (within) the system to become a larger positive force in each of their lives (full-time parenting vs 50% or less parenting) and minimize the damage caused by my wife, and help her become aware of this damage (her therapists are instrumental in this).  I am working with my children to have them become more self-sufficient, so if we do separate, they will have some idea what to do instead of 'no-clue'.  My D gets it, my S is still a work in progress.

To summarize, my children are better off, at least right now, until they are out of the house, one is leaving in 1-2 years, the other in 6-7, and having my wife reasonably stable with a few episode a month instead of totally unhinged on a daily basis with my children being her target of blame and taking it out on them is preferable course of action for my children.

If there were a divorce, the kids remainder of their childhood would be destroyed, additional healing likely not occur, and it would make a bad situation worse, for my scenario.

Right now I am rewriting the computer program for my own version of Capt. Kirk's "Kobayashi Maru" no-win scenario to do the least amount of damage to our children, before I order the self-destruct of our marriage if the programming is unsuccessful, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobayashi_Maru for more details. 

I do NOT want the children to sustain excessive collateral damage, if I were to engage in a divorce right now, as it is my wife's intent to improve and she is on relatively mostly good behavior right now with occasional lapses.  Having them leave the home emotionally scarred with healing, and bandaged is the preferred outcome to severe damage.

I am also getting the children out of the house as much as possible, and in situations where they can see other parents interact in much healthier ways - this would likely not happen if we were separated going through a nasty divorce.  I am working with them on recognizing patterns, as my D now has a boyfriend who is in a very similar situation that she finds herself, except her BF's mother is divorced untreated living with a new supply.  Both my D and her bf are codependent parentified children, with the difference one of the two mothers is being treated (my uBPDw) and there is a stark difference between my D and her bf - I can see first hand that this is the better course of action for my family dynamic until all children are out of the house in another 6-7 years.

Take care with self care.

SaltyDawg

----

P.S.

FD, I would like you to weigh in on this, as I would like an outside 3rd perspective, to challenge what I have done in my situation, as I suspect it might be an ultra-rare exception to the rule as I have turned things around by imposing firm boundaries, and standing up to get things moving in a more positive than negative direction by doing this under the guidance of her individual therapist, my individual therapist, a couple's therapist, and attending CODA and NAMI meetings in addition to other thins.  Neither direction is a good one; however, I feel, from observation, it is  less worse one of the two possible choices in my situation of should I stay or should I go.  Your opinion please?

[Notwendy]

I don't think we can know the path not taken. My parents stayed together. Was it better that they did? I can't know this because, there's not a way to know how things would have been if they divorced.

The topic of divorce came up frequently as my BPD mother would threaten it. I first recall hearing it at about age 9 or 10 during one of their fights. These were scary. Lots of yelling and screaming. BPD mother would trash the house. The idea of divorce was scary to me at that age.

By the time we were teens, it was more like "just do it already". If they were going to fight like this, what was the point. But this was also from a naive perspective. I had no clue what was involved in a marital relationship. At the time, custody would have gone to my mother. I would have been very vocal about wanting to live with my father if this had happened. I had a better relationship with my father. I actually prefered the idea of divorce, staying with him, and getting away from her. I looked forward to college.

Since BPD mother brought it up, I did ask my father why they didn't divorce and his answer was "because of the kids" and the custody laws at the time. This was believable and likely a main reason but it was not the only reason because, we kids grew up, left home, and they stayed together.

The answer then became "divorce is too expensive" which is true also but so was staying with my mother because of her uncontrolled spending so that didn't quite make sense.

These were reasons but there had to be more. One is that he was the other half of the dynamics and as much a part of them as she is. I didn't realize the extent of his co-dependency until a counselor refered me to work on my own co-dependent tendencies. In my family, this was the example of "normal". I knew BPD mother's behavior wasn't "normal" so I looked to my father as a role model. His positive qualities were impressive- so mostly these were good examples, but enabling BPD mother was the "norm" for us.

I think he fell completely in love with her. She was beautiful. At the time they married, not much was known about BPD. Like people have mentioned, when she's in her good mood, she could be amazing, but her other moods are difficult. I think he didn't know what to do for much of their marriage and so did what he thought he needed to do. She did have therapy but it was not effective as she herself doesn't believe there's anything wrong on her part.

Lastly, I think he knew how impaired she was and I think he felt an obligation to not let her fend for herself. He did a good job of caretaking her and her behavior was mostly only apparent to us as immediate family. I knew she was disordered but now that I am relating to her as an adult, I can see how severely impacted she is by her BPD. Having been enabled, she has a strong sense of entitlement.

Ironically- Dad was such a good caretaker that she remained dependent -so did that help the situation or not? Could she have learned different skills had she not been enabled in this manner? That's the other "road not taken". What if BPD mother had not been enabled to such an extent? What if there were boundaries and consequences to her behavior? What if Dad left and she had to adjust?

I don't think I would have blamed Dad for leaving her if he had done that. Maybe as a kid I would not have understood it but I could see the relationship was difficult and would wish the best for him. I don't know if it would have been better for us kids or not.

But the main point here is that- "staying for the kids" is a reason but it may not be the only reason. While the plan to stay for another 6 or 7 years is a reason that works for you, it makes the kids the reason, not the relationship. It takes the focus off the real reason for wanting to stay or leave. I think it's a bit of a safety valve for being unhappy in the relationship but having a noble reason to stay. Not that it isn't noble, it is- but there is possibly more to the decision than "for the kids".

[SinisterComplex]

Firm and indifferent is the way to go?  

The social media smear campaign fired back up.  She is worried about her physical and mental health.  Seriously?   The last fight I was in was in elementary school.  Families that know our kids are all commenting on her bs posts.  I haven't said anything,  acting like I don't even know they exist, but wow.  Way to false ruin somebody in the community.

Using a firm and indifferent approach allows things to be prevented from escalating. The less emotionally charged conversations are the better. You are being pushed to see if you will break and give in. It is purely a control move. You not having composure and reacting emotionally gives her the power and control she wants.

You not saying anything is the best course of action.

To provide you an example of how this situation is...there was a press conference quite a while ago where David Stern the NBA Commissioner at the time was asked a question by the reporter Jim Rome about the NBA fixing the draft lottery. David Stern responded with a loaded question in response to Jim Rome of have you stopped beating your wife yet?

The point with this psychology here has nothing to do with abuse actually and instead is all about putting your opponent in an unwinnable and untenable position. The allegation spoken aloud is power all by itself. If you respond you lose no matter what. You essentially incriminate yourself just by even giving it the time of day and participating.  

Now she may not be this psychologically adept or evolved, but the game is being played the same way. So you have to be on guard.

So again...be firm and indifferent. Make sense?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[mikejones75093]

Using a firm and indifferent approach allows things to be prevented from escalating. The less emotionally charged conversations are the better. You are being pushed to see if you will break and give in. It is purely a control move. You not having composure and reacting emotionally gives her the power and control she wants.

You not saying anything is the best course of action.

To provide you an example of how this situation is...there was a press conference quite a while ago where David Stern the NBA Commissioner at the time was asked a question by the reporter Jim Rome about the NBA fixing the draft lottery. David Stern responded with a loaded question in response to Jim Rome of have you stopped beating your wife yet?

The point with this psychology here has nothing to do with abuse actually and instead is all about putting your opponent in an unwinnable and untenable position. The allegation spoken aloud is power all by itself. If you respond you lose no matter what. You essentially incriminate yourself just by even giving it the time of day and participating.  

Now she may not be this psychologically adept or evolved, but the game is being played the same way. So you have to be on guard.

So again...be firm and indifferent. Make sense?

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

If I don't give her the control she wants,  what's the end game?  Does she keep escalating until she blows up?   The more I read about this the more I'm asking myself what the hell I'm even doing being around her.

[SinisterComplex]

What is your end game? What are your goals? What would you like to happen. Ultimately, this is up to you. For you being around her...well I will just offer up trust your own instincts and judgment.

She is going to throw the kitchen sink at you. Just be prepared for it and don't engage. It won't be easy no, but you have to be firm and indifferent. If asked a question a simple yes or no...no emotion one way or the other. She will try to smear you and it will upset you and get under your skin...go about your business and do not react to it. If you give it life it will only get worse.

Odds are she will try to escalate into a blow up, but if you keep your composure and hold the line so to speak she will eventually run out of steam.

Her endgame...there isn't one. It is pure emotion and wanting to put all the weight on you. She just wants to rope you in and make you responsible for everything. It is the mentality that it is all your fault for the feelings she feels. She cannot take accountability. She cannot face shame or guilt. All of it has to be dropped on you. So protect yourself and don't feed the monster.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[SinisterComplex]

Locked thread due to reaching post limit. Splitting off into a new thread which you can find here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357262.msg13205270#msg13205270