Well looks like divorce is finally happening

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Don't know if I'm afraid of change but I've never file and don't want it to end.  She filed on me and is forcing my hand.  Don't know if this is a good thing or not.

Process just started and attorney hired.  I don't think she thought things through and once she realized she was going to have to split custody she told her attorney I'm an alcoholic and I need alcohol monitoring on my vehicle, she should get full custody and me visitation. Talk about shocked.  So now I'm very upset and don't know I would ever take her back.

Also accusing me of Financial abuse.   Seriously?  She spends all our money and had us on a path for bankruptcy.   Whether I wanted to divorce or not, bankruptcy was going to force my hand eventually.  Wasn't going to let that happen.

She's telling everyone how she was abused but now works and has a good job.  She's out looking at houses she can't afford.  Said she needs to move to fund peace in her life.

She told me she would cancel if I agree to sell our house and move.  Giant financial mistake and I feel like 30 days after making a huge mistake she'll be right back where she was looking to calm the chaos and needing to find peace.  Feel like this I'd manipulation and I can't make this Giant mistake for her to be right back here 30 days later.

She wants to leave the marital house.  She always needs the fresh start.  I don't want to end her custody but I think me being the primary parent and the kids staying in the house they live in with stability from me is best.  Am I wrong?  I want to make sure I'm not making an emotional decision.

She's calling people telling them I'm horrible and.encouraging them not to help me.

I'm calm.  We are cohabitation on separate sides of the house.

What else do I need to be aware of or look out for.  I feel sad and upset this is happening but I need to handle it right.

[mikejones75093]

Don't know if I'm afraid of change but I've never file and don't want it to end.  She filed on me and is forcing my hand.  Don't know if this is a good thing or not.

Process just started and attorney hired.  I don't think she thought things through and once she realized she was going to have to split custody she told her attorney I'm an alcoholic and I need alcohol monitoring on my vehicle, she should get full custody and me visitation. Talk about shocked.  So now I'm very upset and don't know I would ever take her back.

Also accusing me of Financial abuse.   Seriously?  She spends all our money and had us on a path for bankruptcy.   Whether I wanted to divorce or not, bankruptcy was going to force my hand eventually.  Wasn't going to let that happen.

She's telling everyone how she was abused but now works and has a good job.  She's out looking at houses she can't afford.  Said she needs to move to fund peace in her life.

She told me she would cancel if I agree to sell our house and move.  Giant financial mistake and I feel like 30 days after making a huge mistake she'll be right back where she was looking to calm the chaos and needing to find peace.  Feel like this I'd manipulation and I can't make this Giant mistake for her to be right back here 30 days later.

She wants to leave the marital house.  She always needs the fresh start.  I don't want to end her custody but I think me being the primary parent and the kids staying in the house they live in with stability from me is best.  Am I wrong?  I want to make sure I'm not making an emotional decision.

She's calling people telling them I'm horrible and.encouraging them not to help me.

I'm calm.  We are cohabitation on separate sides of the house.

What else do I need to be aware of or look out for.  I feel sad and upset this is happening but I need to handle it right.

[SaltyDawg]

Two resources that you may want to read (if you haven't already done so), I've read both, there is some overlap.  The first one concentrates on the alienating issue, the 2nd one is a more general guide on divorce, read "Splitting" first as it has what to do and what not to do and discusses what to do when being falsely accused, as you are.

"Don't Alienate the Kids! Raising Resilient Children While Avoiding High Conflict Divorce"
By Bill Eddy · 2010

"Splitting - Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline Or Narcissistic Personality Disorder"  By Bill Eddy, Randi Kreger, William A. Eddy · 2021

Get the books, best $$$'s you can spend on your defence now.  You can see the 'quick start guide' at https://www.google.com/books/edition/Splitting/WxQxEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PT8&printsec=frontcover

[mikejones75093]

I've read splitting.   Was ok, didn't really get much from it.

As far as alienating I'll check that out.  She's definitely doing it.

Talking about moving away and how amazing it will be to get ice cream and go to the park.

Also telling the kids all I do is drink.  One of my kids already came up to me and said you're just drunk when she had to go to bed on a Sunday night.

I'm concerned a lot about how their mother will treat them without me there to absorb the punishment but not trying to end her custody.  For stability I think it's best I'm the primary or whatever you call it.  Main residence and go to school at my house so they aren't always subject to her constantly reinventing herself to try and find peace.

[ForeverDad]

Remember the old adage, "Nice guys finish last"?  That especially applies here.  You're a Nice Guy (like the Nice Gals here too) and yes you're likely to get sucker punched if you don't see how your nice perspectives put you at increased risks.

I don't want to end her custody but I think me being the primary parent and the kids staying in the house they live in with stability from me is best.  Am I wrong?  I want to make sure I'm not making an emotional decision.

Number one piece of advice is to set aside your natural inclination to empathize for her while she is out aggressively "telling everyone how she was abused" and prepping your own kids to parrot her perceptions "One of my kids already came up to me and said you're just drunk".

You're worried about whether you should take away her custody?  Huh?  Believe me, I've been there, done that (divorce).  Unless the court determines she has abused the children or is a danger to the children, you have little choice in the matter, odds are the court would issue temp joint custody at best or at worst no custody for you.  (In my two temp orders before the final decree two years later, my ex had full custody and I had none.  This when she was initially facing a charge of Threat of DV.  She was looking that bad as a spouse but still court defaulted  custody to her!  (Of course if I raised the matter today, court would respond and say it was just temporary orders.  Then I'd counter with, "How can two year temporary orders be considered temporary?")

Set aside your thinking of being "fair" with equal time, she's already charging ahead to paint you as a bad husband and bad father.  On the other hand you can be "fair" to yourself (as a good man and a good father) and your children.  Forget about pleasing your wife.  You've already stood up and said No to moving to more expensive and unaffordable housing just so she can feel better for awhile.

Your priority is (1) yourself and (2) your parenting.  Your kids deserve a better life than she would provide.  You know that.  But she's not listening.  (That's predictable.)  So instead focus upon gathering your documentation of the contrast between you and her so that it can be presented to the court.  You may need  Custody Evaluation.

Most of us fathers here encountered a surprise, we thought court would listen to us but at best it just viewed us as two bickering parents.  (And in my case, in a brief half hour without my input the magistrate handed her a temp order with full temp custody and majority time - yes, despite in another court she had a pending case against her of Threat of DV.)  That was 18 years ago, but it was clear that mothers in my area got default preferential treatment.  It seemed the process wasn't "why should dad get the kids?" but rather "why shouldn't mother get the kids?"  More or less, she was deferred to as parent for the child but I was expected to provide $$$ support as the one with deep money pockets.  Like I was an afterthought to the family unit.)

Your priority is (1) yourself and (2) your parenting.  At this point, with her actively painting you as virtually Mr Evil Personified rather than as a trusted spouse, I'm inclined to think you ought to ask your counselor why you should even want her back.)

EDIT:  If you must care that much for a sabotaging, obstructing and disparaging spouse, then at least focus FIRST on yourself, your parenting and your children, then if there is anything left over you can ponder how she can fit in.  You shouldn't be nasty but neither should you let her sabotage you.

[mikejones75093]

Remember the old adage, "Nice guys finish last"?  That especially applies here.  You're a Nice Guy (like the Nice Gals here too) and yes you're likely to get sucker punched if you don't see how your nice perspectives put you at increased risks.

Number one piece of advice is to set aside your natural inclination to empathize for her while she is out aggressively "telling everyone how she was abused" and prepping your own kids to parrot her perceptions "One of my kids already came up to me and said you're just drunk".

You're worried about whether you should take away her custody?  Huh?  Believe me, I've been there, done that (divorce).  Unless the court determines she has abused the children or is a danger to the children, you have little choice in the matter, odds are the court would issue temp joint custody at best or at worst no custody for you.  (In my two temp orders before the final decree two years later, my ex had full custody and I had none.  This when she was initially facing a charge of Threat of DV.  She was looking that bad as a spouse but still court defaulted  custody to her!  (Of course if I raised the matter today, court would respond and say it was just temporary orders.  Then I'd counter with, "How can two year temporary orders be considered temporary?")

Set aside your thinking of being "fair" with equal time, she's already charging ahead to paint you as a bad husband and bad father.  On the other hand you can be "fair" to yourself (as a good man and a good father) and your children.  Forget about pleasing your wife.  You've already stood up and said No to moving to more expensive and unaffordable housing just so she can feel better for awhile.

Your priority is (1) yourself and (2) your parenting.  Your kids deserve a better life than she would provide.  You know that.  But she's not listening.  (That's predictable.)  So instead focus upon gathering your documentation of the contrast between you and her so that it can be presented to the court.  You may need  Custody Evaluation.

Most of us fathers here encountered a surprise, we thought court would listen to us but at best it just viewed us as two bickering parents.  (And in my case, in a brief half hour without my input the magistrate handed her a temp order with full temp custody and majority time - yes, despite in another court she had a pending case against her of Threat of DV.)  That was 18 years ago, but it was clear that mothers in my area got default preferential treatment.  It seemed the process wasn't "why should dad get the kids?" but rather "why shouldn't mother get the kids?"  More or less, she was deferred to as parent for the child but I was expected to provide $$$ support as the one with deep money pockets.  Like I was an afterthought to the family unit.)

Your priority is (1) yourself and (2) your parenting.  At this point, with her actively painting you as virtually Mr Evil Personified rather than as a trusted spouse, I'm inclined to think you ought to ask your counselor why you should even want her back.)

EDIT:  If you must care that much for a sabotaging, obstructing and disparaging spouse, then at least focus FIRST on yourself, your parenting and your children, then if there is anything left over you can ponder how she can fit in.  You shouldn't be nasty but neither should you let her sabotage you.

I agree.  Just need to hear it sometimes.

I ended up hiring the high end attorney based on a recommendation.   As far as the differences all I really have are about 5 video clips showing her raging hard on the kids, and her Accusations about me being an alcohol abuser and wasting money.   As far as wasting money,  that was her not me and will come out.  I have 0 criminal record or health issues from drinking but she came home and secretly recorded me watching football and socially drinking with friends.  Nothing wild and crazy, just a bunch of middle aged guys sitting on a couch watching football with beer in hand.  Don't know how much that will prove. 

Any advice on how to get my attorney to understand the most stable environment is with me?

[ForeverDad]

It certainly sounds like she has no real "proof" of anything bad about you.

Remember that court's often ignore vague "he always..." or "she always..." as hearsay since supporting details, documentation or witnesses are missing.

My divorce took 2 years and I was in and out of court for another 6 years.  It was only toward the end that I testified and played recordings of my ex.  I was required to testify where and approximately when I made the recordings.  I was allowed to consult my journals to refresh my memory... and No her lawyers were unable to browse my journals/logs, they remained mine and private.

Do not expect for court to listen or watch what you have, at least not at first, not unless the conflict continues endlessly.  Perhaps an evaluator or social services may do that?

Be the parent with practical solutions, not the one always creating the conflict.  Eventually the court should notice that.  Note that I did not say you have to make concessions endlessly or sell yourself short, just propose practical (even if too hopeful) solutions.

Not sure why your lawyer doesn't understand you.  I understand he may not believe you - you don't want a lawyer who gets emotionally involved - but he ought to at least support you over time.  I recall in my divorce, I was almost a year into the process when the court's "parenting investigator" stated she was not licensed to recommend custody, hint, hint, and so she said I should start a Custody Evaluation, an in-depth examination of the family including Psych Evals and then closely determining how the children are impacted by each parent's parenting.  My lawyer had worked with me for months but even he warned me - a reasonably normal parent - that the CE could go against me.  I was a bit stunned since by then he knew me.  No surprise, a half year later the initial report stated "Mother can't share 'her' child but Father can."  Beware that some Custody Evaluators want to write virtual books filled with charts and costing $10-20K, and that was 15 years ago.  My CE was a child psychologist that my lawyer said was trusted implicitly by the court, he charged under $4K and the initial report was about 11 pages.

[mikejones75093]

It certainly sounds like she has no real "proof" of anything bad about you.

Remember that court's often ignore vague "he always..." or "she always..." as hearsay since supporting details, documentation or witnesses are missing.

My divorce took 2 years and I was in and out of court for another 6 years.  It was only toward the end that I testified and played recordings of my ex.  I was required to testify where and approximately when I made the recordings.  I was allowed to consult my journals to refresh my memory... and No her lawyers were unable to browse my journals/logs, they remained mine and private.

Do not expect for court to listen or watch what you have, at least not at first, not unless the conflict continues endlessly.  Perhaps an evaluator or social services may do that?

Be the parent with practical solutions, not the one always creating the conflict.  Eventually the court should notice that.  Note that I did not say you have to make concessions endlessly or sell yourself short, just propose practical (even if too hopeful) solutions.

Not sure why your lawyer doesn't understand you.  I understand he may not believe you - you don't want a lawyer who gets emotionally involved - but he ought to at least support you over time.  I recall in my divorce, I was almost a year into the process when the court's "parenting investigator" stated she was not licensed to recommend custody, hint, hint, and so she said I should start a Custody Evaluation, an in-depth examination of the family including Psych Evals and then closely determining how the children are impacted by each parent's parenting.  My lawyer had worked with me for months but even he warned me - a reasonably normal parent - that the CE could go against me.  I was a bit stunned since by then he knew me.  No surprise, a half year later the initial report stated "Mother can't share 'her' child but Father can."  Beware that some Custody Evaluators want to write virtual books filled with charts and costing $10-20K, and that was 15 years ago.  My CE was a child psychologist that my lawyer said was trusted implicitly by the court, he charged under $4K and the initial report was about 11 pages.

That sounds horrible.   She's low on money and wants to keep it cheap, but it always depends on her mood at the time.  3 weeks ago she told me to hire an attorney to draft a decree and she would sign it, and now it's opposite.

Hopefully she mediates but once she hears I want to be primary she'll lose it.

I have a few intense clips of her yelling and throwing things but I don't know it's enough to be primary over a mom.  I'm also hoping once she has nothing on these allegations that her attorney's talk some sense into her.

Yours sounds like it was intense.  Hopefully it doesn't go like that.

[SinisterComplex]

Just remember to document, document, document my friend. Additionally, moving forward in your interactions focus on being firm and indifferent. Now it is a game of who can keep their composure and not make mistakes.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[ForeverDad]

Most divorces here take many months or sometimes even a year or two.  My impression is most family courts are jammed with cases and progress in a case is slow.  You're assigned a time slot for a hearing, often just a half hour, and it may be scheduled for an appearance in a month or two.  Judges & lawyers are used to the slow page.  For you it's your life and parenting at stake, for them it's just another day at work.  My divorce had about a dozen hearings, it was a two year case.  Then my ex kept causing problems and we were in and out of court for another few years with incremental improvements.

So be prepared for a slow pace.  However, beware with being unprepared for the temp order hearing.  Warning: Get the best (or least bad) temp order because it may be a long time  before it gets fixed.  Mine had a bad start (judge defaulted to preference for mother) and didn't get fixed until the final decree two years later.

Bad: As dad, my 2 years with temp orders left me stuck with no temp custody and alternate weekends.

Good: Eventually I ended up with full legal custody and majority time during the school year, summers were equal time.  My ex had caused a lot of continuing conflict.

Summary of my process, no cooperation from ex:

• Initial hearing... rubber stamped temp hearing for temp order.
• Mediation... these are attempts, we try but nearly all of us can't negotiate with an unreasonable ex so it usually fails and we go back to court.
• Parenting Investigation by court social worker who is not licensed for custody matters.
• Custody Evaluation which can take months and $$$.
• Judge & lawyer discuss CE report.
• Settlement conference (mine failed in 5 minutes)
• Trial day (full day) scheduled for 4 months later
• Trial Day - ex surprised me, ready to negotiate

[mikejones75093]

Just remember to document, document, document my friend. Additionally, moving forward in your interactions focus on being firm and indifferent. Now it is a game of who can keep their composure and not make mistakes.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

How do you document?  Just write down what she does bad or actually what we do daily?

[mikejones75093]

Most divorces here take many months or sometimes even a year or two.  My impression is most family courts are jammed with cases and progress in a case is slow.  You're assigned a time slot for a hearing, often just a half hour, and it may be scheduled for an appearance in a month or two.  Judges & lawyers are used to the slow page.  For you it's your life and parenting at stake, for them it's just another day at work.  My divorce had about a dozen hearings, it was a two year case.  Then my ex kept causing problems and we were in and out of court for another few years with incremental improvements.

So be prepared for a slow pace.  However, beware with being unprepared for the temp order hearing.  Warning: Get the best (or least bad) temp order because it may be a long time  before it gets fixed.  Mine had a bad start (judge defaulted to preference for mother) and didn't get fixed until the final decree two years later.

Bad: As dad, my 2 years with temp orders left me stuck with no temp custody and alternate weekends.

Good: Eventually I ended up with full legal custody and majority time during the school year, summers were equal time.  My ex had caused a lot of continuing conflict.

Summary of my process, no cooperation from ex:

• Initial hearing... rubber stamped temp hearing for temp order.
• Mediation... these are attempts, we try but nearly all of us can't negotiate with an unreasonable ex so it usually fails and we go back to court.
• Parenting Investigation by court social worker who is not licensed for custody matters.
• Custody Evaluation which can take months and $$$.
• Judge & lawyer discuss CE report.
• Settlement conference (mine failed in 5 minutes)
• Trial day (full day) scheduled for 4 months later
• Trial Day - ex surprised me, ready to negotiate

She's trying to move quick so hopefully she will negotiate.   

[Notwendy]

I think there's a shock to seeing someone you are close to say such things in order to gain the advantage. What you see- her telling people that you are an alcoholic is an example of that, as well as using your marriage as a barganing chip to get a new house.

I don't know how to explain it. I think at some level it's doing whatever they want to do to get what they want in the moment- and not having the same boundaries as expected.

I think you are getting good advice from people who have been through divorce with a BPD spouse. 

A house is only what a family makes of it. We moved several times but I am not attached to any houses we lived in. I don't know what concessions you may have to make but IMHO, your time with your kids is the priority. Keeping the same school district and their friends is more of a contribution to their stability than a house, I think.

Your (ex) wife's relationship with the kids might change too and so might her interest in custody. Young children are compliant.  Not so much adolescents who may talk back to a BPD parent. But your kids will need you as a parent just as much at that age too- and beyond that age. I

[ForeverDad]

She's trying to move quick so hopefully she will negotiate.

Be aware that her version of negotiation may be that you capitulate to everything she wants.  That is why I stated that for most of us our ordered mediation failed, the stbEx was just simply too entitled and not realistic.  Later on, once she realizes that court is The Real Authority most of us did reach settlements, not all that great, but certainly much better than the initial mediation attempts.  In my case, my mediation failed as expected at the start of my divorce process but 18 months later we did eventually settle - on Trial Day.

Notwendy is right, a house is just a house.  In the grand scheme of life a house rates far lower than parenting.  Home is wherever you live.

However you've already mentioned that selling the house and buying another is financially sabotaging since the prices and interest rates have risen so much.

If you do negotiate a way to have separate homes, try to do so in such a way that it doesn't sabotage you later.  For example, try to be the one to keep the house since if she later lets you have the kids more on her time, then you won't be elsewhere and she sitting alone doing whatever in the house.  (Besides she's already hating the house and wanting to move elsewhere.)  Be smart too about deeds and mortgages; you don't want her to have control while you're stuck paying for her life and things.

There is a variety of ways to accumulate documentation.  It must have sufficient details such as time, locations, witnesses, etc.  I used 100 page annual appointment books with a week on each turned page.  I still have a stack of them.  Or use a calendar or Google calendar (not shared with stbEx!) or other form of journal.  It's yours, it's private and confidential, your stbEx has no right to demand it.  I also recorded incidents with voice recordings (before smart phones) but court and lawyers didn't care for them until years later they realized she would never stop causing conflict.  I also had numerous allegations to doctors, hospitals, count deputies, children's agencies, etc, all of which were either closed as "unsubstantiated" or merely logged.  I would go to the local children's hospital just before a scheduled hearing to get copies of the latest accusations.  I think I was supposed to pay but the staff had such pained expressions, I was a regular there for a while.

[mikejones75093]

Be aware that her version of negotiation may be that you capitulate to everything she wants.  That is why I stated that for most of us our ordered mediation failed, the stbEx was just simply too entitled and not realistic.  Later on, once she realizes that court is The Real Authority most of us did reach settlements, not all that great, but certainly much better than the initial mediation attempts.  In my case, my mediation failed as expected at the start of my divorce process but 18 months later we did eventually settle - on Trial Day.

Notwendy is right, a house is just a house.  In the grand scheme of life a house rates far lower than parenting.  Home is wherever you live.

However you've already mentioned that selling the house and buying another is financially sabotaging since the prices and interest rates have risen so much.

If you do negotiate a way to have separate homes, try to do so in such a way that it doesn't sabotage you later.  For example, try to be the one to keep the house since if she later lets you have the kids more on her time, then you won't be elsewhere and she sitting alone doing whatever in the house.  (Besides she's already hating the house and wanting to move elsewhere.)  Be smart too about deeds and mortgages; you don't want her to have control while you're stuck paying for her life and things.

There is a variety of ways to accumulate documentation.  It must have sufficient details such as time, locations, witnesses, etc.  I used 100 page annual appointment books with a week on each turned page.  I still have a stack of them.  Or use a calendar or Google calendar (not shared with stbEx!) or other form of journal.  It's yours, it's private and confidential, your stbEx has no right to demand it.  I also recorded incidents with voice recordings (before smart phones) but court and lawyers didn't care for them until years later they realized she would never stop causing conflict.  I also had numerous allegations to doctors, hospitals, count deputies, children's agencies, etc, all of which were either closed as "unsubstantiated" or merely logged.  I would go to the local children's hospital just before a scheduled hearing to get copies of the latest accusations.  I think I was supposed to pay but the staff had such pained expressions, I was a regular there for a while.

She told her attorney i came home drunk last night.  They are telling her to take all the kids and leave.  I'm staying calm outside but inside I'm ripping my hair out.  This is just dirty.  I can't even believe she's playing a dirty game like this.  I don't even know how to handle this.  I just hope somebody has a clear head when there is no proof only her saying it.

[Notwendy]

My BPD mother will say whatever it takes to get what she wants. There is no way to know what kinds of things she has told people about me, as most of them aren't shared with me.

And she'd complain about my father and other people to me as well.

I think what is shocking is just how far they take this. Most of us would not say these things about other people, and also how does she come up with this stuff?

I am sorry this is happening to you, but now that you know what she is capable of, you can enlist your lawyer. My guess is that the courts have seen false accusations in divorces and there must be some way to address them.

I know it hurts though. To have good intentions and have them so twisted into something else. It also impacts relationships. I didn't know what to say to the people my mother has painted me black to. For me, the best I could do is create cognitive dissonance and be calm and cordial so they'd see the difference. Your wife may be trying to get you to lose your cool in front of other people. Stay calm.

Your relationship with your children is for the long run. They may not be aware of their mother's dysfunction now, but they can see it for themselves as they get older. I think it would help them to have counseling to have someone objective to talk to.

Their mother might say whatever she wants about you but they will, over time, see that when they are with you, it's calm and logical. One thing I did notice is that- when we were with Dad and my mother was not around, it was different. Dad was relaxed and more "himself". When my mother was around too, her feelings and emotions seemed to be the focus.

I don't know why my mother lies like this. Is she amoral or just so driven to get what she wants that she will do whatever it takes? I don't think I can know this but I know she will do that. You now know this too and can expect it.


 

[ForeverDad]

She told her attorney i came home drunk last night.  They are telling her to take all the kids and leave.  I'm staying calm outside but inside I'm ripping my hair out.  This is just dirty.  I can't even believe she's playing a dirty game like this.

So many of us here were shocked when we first experienced the spouse's manipulations to transform reality, to actively sabotage us and our reputation.

Needless to say, this is a common claim to make us look bad in a divorce or custody dispute.  My ex essentially ignored how bad she looked and just kept trying to find things to claim I looked worse than her.

You will have to be proactive to protect yourself now that you know one way your spouse - the person who should be closest to you - is trying to make you look bad.

It might be best to limit your drinking of alcoholic beverages.  Better yet, during this critical time, ponder whether to avoid alcohol entirely.

Are there any neighbors or friends you can visit with just before you go home, who could later be witnesses you hadn't been drinking or inebriated?

If or when this may end up in a legal scenario, understand that a lot of the "he always..." or "she always..." allegations are simply too vague (and without details of independent substantiation) and typically end up being ignored as hearsay.

Be aware that if this tactic doesn't work, she's likely to add other types of allegations.  In my own separation and divorce, my stbEx at first made weak allegations - the first was that our preschooler fell off his bike - but progressively made more extreme claims to the point of even insinuating sexual child abuse allegations.  Though shocking, fortunately the agencies determined there was no substance to her "my preschooler told me..." stories.

[Notwendy]

I agree with FD on the alcohol. Make it part of the cognitive dissonance. She can accuse you of anything but don't have it in the house, don't drink it, don't have bottles in the recycle bin. No evidence is no evidence.

My father's sister was the caretaker for her husband who had pain medicine for an injury. BPD mother told me that she was "using her husband's medicine for herself". I didn't believe her but to someone else who didn't know her, it might be plausible- she did have it.

The lies sometimes incluse possible truths- which leads to doubt and questioning.

Best to not even leave the possibility of an accusation being questioned.

[mikejones75093]

Be aware that her version of negotiation may be that you capitulate to everything she wants.  That is why I stated that for most of us our ordered mediation failed, the stbEx was just simply too entitled and not realistic.  Later on, once she realizes that court is The Real Authority most of us did reach settlements, not all that great, but certainly much better than the initial mediation attempts.  In my case, my mediation failed as expected at the start of my divorce process but 18 months later we did eventually settle - on Trial Day.

Notwendy is right, a house is just a house.  In the grand scheme of life a house rates far lower than parenting.  Home is wherever you live.

However you've already mentioned that selling the house and buying another is financially sabotaging since the prices and interest rates have risen so much.

If you do negotiate a way to have separate homes, try to do so in such a way that it doesn't sabotage you later.  For example, try to be the one to keep the house since if she later lets you have the kids more on her time, then you won't be elsewhere and she sitting alone doing whatever in the house.  (Besides she's already hating the house and wanting to move elsewhere.)  Be smart too about deeds and mortgages; you don't want her to have control while you're stuck paying for her life and things.

There is a variety of ways to accumulate documentation.  It must have sufficient details such as time, locations, witnesses, etc.  I used 100 page annual appointment books with a week on each turned page.  I still have a stack of them.  Or use a calendar or Google calendar (not shared with stbEx!) or other form of journal.  It's yours, it's private and confidential, your stbEx has no right to demand it.  I also recorded incidents with voice recordings (before smart phones) but court and lawyers didn't care for them until years later they realized she would never stop causing conflict.  I also had numerous allegations to doctors, hospitals, count deputies, children's agencies, etc, all of which were either closed as "unsubstantiated" or merely logged.  I would go to the local children's hospital just before a scheduled hearing to get copies of the latest accusations.  I think I was supposed to pay but the staff had such pained expressions, I was a regular there for a while.

Let me ask you this... she thinks we have more money than we do.  She's keeping herself busy shopping for houses.  She works full time and makes decent money, but not enough to afford her lifestyle.   Once she realizes what she's really going to get, that now she has to pay bills and is really underwater, and will never qualify to purchase, what kind of crap can I expect to deal with?

[Notwendy]

All you owe her is what the courts decide. Whatever she does is not your problem to solve. 

You don't want it to impact the kids though. I have read stories of kids going to one parent's house with no clothes or supplies packed and then taking them back to the other parent's house if they need them- if he other parent isn't buying them. It may be that you spend more on clothes, or shoes but if the kids need them, then they do. I don't know if this would happen with her or not.

We were concerned how BPD mother would manage without my father when he passed. She did a lot better than we expected. You may also be concerned about how your wife would manage. I think she is probably more resourceful than you might expect.

My guess is if my parents had divorced when my mother was younger, she probably would have married someone else. She can be very charming and likeable when she wants to be, and I think she would have found someone. It may be that your wife remarries someone and they would have their income combined. She still has BPD though, and that will influence her behavior with another person too.

[SaltyDawg]

How do you document?  Just write down what she does bad or actually what we do daily?

I agree with others.  You need to keep your cool.  Do not drink alcohol, if you hang with your friends, stick with soda or other non-alcoholic drinks.

DO NOT LOSE YOUR TEMPER no matter what you do.  Be on best behavior.  Keep in mind 'anything you say or do can be used against you in a court'.

The books that I mentioned a few days ago talks about this in detail.

I will share what I do and have done.  I use my cell phone to take videos.  My wife threatened to make false allegations of child abuse.  You wife has already signalled she is willing to make false statements now, it can only get worse, much worse.  If it has been mentioned by her, she will be sure to do it.

If I were in your shoes, I would get a body camera, a huge hard drive (to transfer the files to make sure that the camera doesn't fill up with video) and a backup hard drive too - anything that have recorded against her (rages, false accusations) upload those to a cloud drive too (puts a time/date stamp on the time of upload).  That way any statement that your stbxw makes up, you can pull up the date and time and share it as a false statement as the video will disprove it should it need to be escalated - if your wife's attorney realizes that your wife is full of :poop: in her allegations, he/she will likely encourage your wife to a less damaging agreement for you.

I personally, have adapted a more covert method of using my cell phone, but it drains the battery down really quickly (I posted specifics about a year ago).  I have a 14 TB drive, sort it by date/time, and description.  I primarily used it to document her bad behavior.  Just be mindful, a camera documents everything you do in addition to them, so make sure you are on best behavior all of the time, or it could be used against you.

If you use a cell phone, you may want to consider wiretapping laws (my pwBPD taunted me to record (I have that specific taunt recorded on more than one occasion), so I have [unintended by her] permission to record by her.  A body camera, is overt, so cannot secretly record (unless it is hidden), less issues here, but you still should not record in spaces where there is an expectation of privacy (bathroom, etc.).  Even if you do get accused, use the 'public safety exemption' (especially if she is violent).

The only recent case of wiretapping laws being persecuted is Linda Tripp for the president Bill Clinton - Monica Lewinsky scandal, and she only got her hands proverbially slapped.

Other more conventional ways to document...

Journaling.

Paper journals - make sure it is a bound book, use indelible ink, any errors use a single line (so it is legible - try to limit to spelling/grammar errors).  Use the aforementioned recording to be specific as possible with your statements (even if you don't disclose the existence of these recordings, and if they come to light, they will corroborate each other.  This could be a paper calendar, but you have limited space for each day.  Hard to make a duplicate, unless you photograph each page as you complete them with your cell phone.  Consider e-mailing yourself these photographs each day.

Electronic - use a free account (hotmail/gmail/outlook), these have built in security features intended for pedophiles; however, this is to your advantage, it will document IP address (your location, unless using a VPN), date and time.  Send yourself a daily synopsis to a dedicated account journaling your specific good behaviors (what you do with and for the children - school, medical appointments, attend sports/plays/etc. and other good things you do for her too, it will reveal holes in her false narrative), and of course her bad behaviors too (false narratives/accusations, rages, violence (if applicable).  Be specific as you possibly can, dates/times/locations.

You can also document on an electronic calendar; however, it is easier to add/edit without date/time stamps on that.

Make sure your google timeline is turned on, and your location on your phone is turned on (for Android, you may have to lookup for iPhones for something similar).  This will document when and where you have been.  Consider using a higher accuracy app like life360 (available for both platforms). 

It is going to take a lot of work, but considering the potential losses that are involved, do everything you can in order to protect yourself even if you use only 1% of what you have documented.  You are your own best advocate, so watch out for your best interests and for your children too.

The idea is to level the playing field, she is fighting unfair, simply call her out on where she is cheating, and remove the teeth from that.  A judge will likely not want to hear much about it, so, flag the most egregious ones, discuss it with your attorney, pick and choose which ones to use for your defense and/or offense in this matter.  The idea is to shut down your wife's attorney and convince him/her how much of a liar she is, so he/she won't want to put their professional on the reputation for her baseless accusations.

My wife eventually figured out I recorded her (after I had multiple admissions for making false statements, and recording bad behaviors), it is a huge deterrent for her.  I have not yet had to use these recordings, and I don't think I will.  She asked me to delete them, I refused.

Hope this helps.

[ForeverDad]

DO NOT LOSE YOUR TEMPER no matter what you do.  Be on best behavior.  Keep in mind 'anything you say or do can be used against you in a court'.

You cannot risk speaking in a way that could be cast as a threat or aggressive.  You don't want to give even a slight basis to let her pose as a victim.  A practical perspective is to imagine the court is looking over your shoulder 24/7.

My lawyer told me his first job upon being hired was to sit on his clients - stop them from talking without his advice - since attempts to explain incidents might get a person in trouble.  Your lawyer can let you know what to say and when.  When questioned, pause and glance to your lawyer who might want you to decline to answer.  Yes, as the movies depict, you do have a right to remain silent.  If it's a Yes or No question, "keep it simple stupid" (KISS), avoid saying more in case it makes more work (and expense) for your attorney to fix.

...a huge hard drive (to transfer the files to make sure that the camera doesn't fill up with video) and a backup hard drive too - anything that have recorded against her (rages, false accusations) upload those to a cloud drive too (puts a time/date stamp on the time of upload)...

An obvious rule is to store your documentation and backups in a place or places where your spouse has no physical or electronic access.  Sorry, a locked briefcase cannot defeat a determined stbEx.

If your spouse has or can guess your passwords, then it's an unsafe place.

It is going to take a lot of work, but considering the potential losses that are involved, do everything you can in order to protect yourself even if you use only 1% of what you have documented.  You are your own best advocate, so watch out for your best interests and for your children too.

I had eight years in and out of family court.  My logs and notes were invaluable.  My recordings helped refresh my memory but only at one (two day!) hearing were 10 phone recordings used.  Except for that one time my court had no time for lengthy hearings.  However, they were quite helpful with the professionals around the court (police, evaluators, child protection investigators, etc).

She asked me to delete them, I refused.

I can't count the times she demanded I delete what I had.  I complied at first but eventually learned to keep hidden backups.

[mikejones75093]

I'm not really concerned with how she survives after it's over, I'm worried about her emotional state and the actions she will take going through the process.

At first she didn't want any money, no child support, split time with kids even.  Then it went to I want to take everything from you and she takes the kids full time, even sending messages to my friends encouraging them not to support me.

Her financial and emotional intelligence are of a child.  I'm concerned once everything comes out that she can't accomplish her "fresh start for peace in her life" goals she's going to flip out or try and manipulate me in some way.

Trying to cover all angles and make sure I'm ready.

[Notwendy]

I'm not really concerned with how she survives after it's over, I'm worried about her emotional state and the actions she will take going through the process.

Her financial and emotional intelligence are of a child.  I'm concerned once everything comes out that she can't accomplish her "fresh start for peace in her life" goals she's going to flip out or try and manipulate me in some way.

I understand and am going through something similar with my BPD mother. Dad planned well for their retirement years and she is spending money recklessly.

She is elderly and in assisted living. It's like giving a child a bank account and letting them loose in a toy store. She has no concept of being conservative with money and we can not reason with her.

Your wife may flip out but she also might find another husband before that happens.

[mikejones75093]

I understand and am going through something similar with my BPD mother. Dad planned well for their retirement years and she is spending money recklessly.

She is elderly and in assisted living. It's like giving a child a bank account and letting them loose in a toy store. She has no concept of being conservative with money and we can not reason with her.

Your wife may flip out but she also might find another husband before that happens.

You're right.  That's part of my issue.  Going back through everything with my counselor
I feel like maybe i was the chump she moved on quick.  It's amazing the mirroring i can see when i look back.  We went on 2 dates and moved in together. It was perfect, or so I thought.

 What kind of guy is she going to have to find that will move in and help with her bills with all these kids.  kids with 2 different dads.  Makes me worry who will be around my daughters.

[Notwendy]

Who we attract and who is attracted to us is very complicated. There are aspects of who you are and who she is that played a part in it. Some of this is not even conscious and some of it is boundaries. Someone else may have felt uncomfortable with moving in so fast, but you didn't. It's not a criticism of you to have done that- it's just a part of how we are. It also is influenced by our experiences in our families of origin.

I understand the concern about who is around your daughters. Although my parents stayed together, they had friends and neighbors and one thing I noticed is that my mother attracts certain types of people- both men and women. If they erred it was to the side of being empathetic and helpful. The combination of caretaker type and BPD seems to be a more longer lasting one.

 I don't think my mother would fit well with an abusive person. I understand the worry about any other person in the house. One can't be too careful. But it if were my mother, that person would likely be a caretaker type and while it may appear she is happier with him at first- the same dysfunction would occurr in that relationship.

Whoever it is, she might paint you black to him but it's good if you get to know the hypothetical new guy well if he's going to be around your daughters.

[Notwendy]

Another possibily if she found someone "new" would be to lose interest in parenting and then the girls would be with you.

[ForeverDad]

What kind of guy is she going to have to find that will move in and help with her bills with all these kids.  kids with 2 different dads.  Makes me worry who will be around my daughters.

Two different dads... are you one of the two dads, or do her kids have two dads other than you?

Does she get child support for the kids that aren't yours?  If so then that part of her support would continue regardless of her married state.

[mikejones75093]

Two different dads... are you one of the two dads, or do her kids have two dads other than you?

Does she get child support for the kids that aren't yours?  If so then that part of her support would continue regardless of her married state.

I have an older step son.  He's 15.  My kids are 6 and younger.  She doesn't get child support.  So me and another guy. 

She alienates his dad bad in front of him.  I was under the impression he was a complete piece of garbage.  Finally met him and what do you know, he's a regular guy.  It's been 15 years since they have been apart and she still HATES him, her words.   He doesn't do anything bad now, they don't even talk.  She thinks he was lazy and didn't work as hard as her back when she first had the kid.

Looking back through the years I'm just in shock about how much manipulation she put me through and I didn't even notice.

[mikejones75093]

Well the attorney I hired is expensive and came highly recommended.   $500 an hour just to consult.  Really upsetting I am going to pay all this money to unwind my marriage.

We filed an answer and a counter suit.  Asking joint custody but me primary conservator.   She's going to be real upset when she sees this.  Also asking to protect my separate property,  also going to make her very upset.

My buddy asked me last week if I wanted her back.  Issue is, even if I do, she's making terrible real life decisions with spending that are too dangerous.  Unless she.completely changes this has to happen.   Even then sometimes I hope she comes around.

She has a realtor showing her all these high end houses. She's completely oblivious she won't qualify or even be able to afford.  We have gone over this a lot.  Is she delusional?  She thinks her payment will only be $2500 a month, more like $5k in reality.

She's acting happy, like everything is great and she's an independent woman accomplishing all kind ls of goals.

I am praying this divorce and custody battle go my way.  She has accused me of all kinds of things that are not true so she can't prove.  A few months ago I installed a camera in my living room and have clips of her screaming and throwing things at the kids, she doesn't know I have them.

At the end of the day I think this is 1 big scam to manipulate me and she doesn't think I will go through with it.  Don't know how she can't act happy like everything is amazing all the time.

[SaltyDawg]

MikeJones,

Thank you for sharing an update.  I am following your progress (just in case I have to do the same at some point in time).


We filed an answer and a counter suit.  Asking joint custody but me primary conservator.   She's going to be real upset when she sees this.  Also asking to protect my separate property,  also going to make her very upset.

I think that is a wise move; however, you mentioned a video clip below, you may want to ask for more.


My buddy asked me last week if I wanted her back.  Issue is, even if I do, she's making terrible real life decisions with spending that are too dangerous.  Unless she.completely changes this has to happen.   Even then sometimes I hope she comes around.

It looks like you are realistic about your expectations being mindful that past behaviors will indicate future ones.  It is obvious that you still love and care for her deeply; however, you cannot tolerate her behaviors if they do not change.


She has a realtor showing her all these high end houses. She's completely oblivious she won't qualify or even be able to afford.  We have gone over this a lot.  Is she delusional?  She thinks her payment will only be $2500 a month, more like $5k in reality.

Do you really need an answer to your rhetorical question?


I am praying this divorce and custody battle go my way.  She has accused me of all kinds of things that are not true so she can't prove.  A few months ago I installed a camera in my living room and have clips of her screaming and throwing things at the kids, she doesn't know I have them.

This one is a red flag for me and prompted me to respond to your thread.  Once you found out the contents of these video clips, did you share it with CPS (child protective services)?  Does your attorney know about these video clips?  If not, you need to let him know as soon as you can.  There are wire-tapping laws (most likely a slap on the wrist - not unlike a speeding ticket) and vary from location to location.  Make sure you have backup copies of these videos, as they will definitely work to your advantage in your divorce.  However, if you failed to report it to CPS in a timely manner, it could raise questions as to why you didn't - your attorney can guide you on this.


At the end of the day I think this is 1 big scam to manipulate me and she doesn't think I will go through with it.  Don't know how she can't act happy like everything is amazing all the time.

You asked a rhetorical question -- she is irrationally delusional.

Take care with self-care.