Parentification

[thankful person]

I have identified some concerning signs of parentification within the relationship between my 4 year old daughter and dbpdw. The main ones are:
- D4 encouraging my wife with practical advice, sympathy, and praise when she is finding things difficult. An example recently was when my wife was carving a pumpkin face for D4 and suddenly started shouting that she couldn’t do it and it wasn’t good enough etc and D4 was like, “Come on Mummy, don’t give up! You can do it, just try again!”
- D4 trying to calm my wife down when she is angry or upset about things. Even before she could speak, if she heard raised voices between my wife and I she would come and silently put her hand over my mouth and I understood it was a reminder not to JADE. It is scarily like she understands the emotional caretaking role even better than I ever did.
This evening something terrible came out of my wife’s mouth directed at D4. D4 had fallen over bumping her head whilst trying to get a balloon from behind the tv. My wife offered her a cuddle and played lovely Mummy singing, “You are my sunshine” to her. Just as the song finished, D4 playfully flicked the balloon at my wife’s face which apparently really hurt her. “YOU ALWAYS RUIN EVERYTHING!” my wife shouted at her. I’m devastated to say, I said nothing. I want to protect my children from all of this and I want to stand up for them. But if I ever say anything that my wife takes as criticism of her parenting, she screeches at me about “how dare you bring them into it!” etc and it just seems easier for everyone if I avoid this and my wife kind of backtracked saying, “that really hurt me”, but it broke my heart to hear this accusation (which I would’ve rather taken for myself which is more usual) “you always ruin everything”.
My wife also had a bit of a meltdown yesterday when she wanted to make cards with the girls and for them to do hand prints (she never does anything like this). She was annoyed with me not sure why but I just got on with something else, then she was blaming me because they were painting the cards with brushes not their hands and apparently I was supposed to stop them. W has asked me to stop doing so many activities with them because she wants to do more with them (we do this when she puts baby to sleep). This morning D4 asked me if they could do painting and I said, “Ask Mummy, I think Mummy wants to do that with you.” D4 was like “really?” And her little face lit up and I thought oh sh1t and I said, “I hope so”. Then when w came downstairs I told her and said, “I’ll always take baby if you want to do anything with the girls” and she flipped out saying, “it’s like you’re giving me permission! That’s not your place to do that!!!” I doubt any painting activity will happen for a long time now. I’m so glad they go to nursery 3 days a week.
I’m just wondering about any practical advice for how to handle these situations and support D4 in particular. I’m aware that there may come a time when I decide that I no longer want to be in this marriage, especially for the sake of the children, but I’d really like to keep our family together if possible, and be as least damaging for the kids as possible. I know we’re looking far into the future, but most of all, I don’t want my kids to end up in a relationship like this.

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[SaltyDawg]

TP,

I'll take a stab at some practical advice...

I have identified some concerning signs of parentification within the relationship between my 4 year old daughter and dbpdw. The main ones are:
- D4 encouraging my wife with practical advice, sympathy, and praise when she is finding things difficult. An example recently was when my wife was carving a pumpkin face for D4 and suddenly started shouting that she couldn’t do it and it wasn’t good enough etc and D4 was like, “Come on Mummy, don’t give up! You can do it, just try again!”
- D4 trying to calm my wife down when she is angry or upset about things. Even before she could speak, if she heard raised voices between my wife and I she would come and silently put her hand over my mouth and I understood it was a reminder not to JADE. It is scarily like she understands the emotional caretaking role even better than I ever did.

This is very much parentification, and that can be a childhood trauma.  Parentification starts at age 3-4 (as soon as they can say full sentences).  I know you work with special education students, use your skills set with your own children too.  Here is a good article on parentification:  https://www.newportacademy.com/resources/mental-health/parentification/  Use Google to find more articles.

This evening something terrible came out of my wife’s mouth directed at D4. D4 had fallen over bumping her head whilst trying to get a balloon from behind the tv. My wife offered her a cuddle and played lovely Mummy singing, “You are my sunshine” to her. Just as the song finished, D4 playfully flicked the balloon at my wife’s face which apparently really hurt her. “YOU ALWAYS RUIN EVERYTHING!” my wife shouted at her. I’m devastated to say, I said nothing. I want to protect my children from all of this and I want to stand up for them. But if I ever say anything that my wife takes as criticism of her parenting, she screeches at me about “how dare you bring them into it!” etc and it just seems easier for everyone if I avoid this and my wife kind of backtracked saying, “that really hurt me”, but it broke my heart to hear this accusation (which I would’ve rather taken for myself which is more usual) “you always ruin everything”.

From what you have described, your wife was doing her best to be a good parent and soothe your D4 in an age appropriate way.  However, the flicking of the balloon in your wife's face was triggering to your wife and set her off with an inappropriate display of anger.  Do you think if you said something along the lines to your wife "[Pet Name for Wife], that must have been very frustrating that D4 to flick the balloon in your face.  Would you feel better if you passed D4 to me?"  This way you make it about your wife, and offer to hold and comfort D4, so your daughter gets your body language of hugging and comforting (more appropriate for a 4 year old), and your wife gets the verbal language that you care for how she feels (more appropriate for an adult)?  This is not a perfect solution, but the best one I can come up with.

My wife also had a bit of a meltdown yesterday when she wanted to make cards with the girls and for them to do hand prints (she never does anything like this). She was annoyed with me not sure why but I just got on with something else, then she was blaming me because they were painting the cards with brushes not their hands and apparently I was supposed to stop them. W has asked me to stop doing so many activities with them because she wants to do more with them (we do this when she puts baby to sleep). This morning D4 asked me if they could do painting and I said, “Ask Mummy, I think Mummy wants to do that with you.” D4 was like “really?” And her little face lit up and I thought oh sh1t and I said, “I hope so”. Then when w came downstairs I told her and said, “I’ll always take baby if you want to do anything with the girls” and she flipped out saying, “it’s like you’re giving me permission! That’s not your place to do that!!!” I doubt any painting activity will happen for a long time now. I’m so glad they go to nursery 3 days a week.

My son did something similar when he was younger, he was to fingerpaint, and wound up using a brush, as did the other kids in the class I was volunteering at.  Kids will do these things.  Nothing worth getting upset over for a 'normal person'.   Your wife was blame shifting your child's behavior on you.

Perhaps you could have said something along the lines "I know it is quite upsetting that your instructions are not being followed"  (not blaming anyone here, just validating your wife's feeling that she is apparently upset). 

With regards to taking the baby so she could do the project with the girls; perhaps, try something along the lines of "[pet wife name], would you like to do the hand painting project with the girls?",
 (this puts your wife in 'control' of the situation) wait for an answer in the affirmative and then offer to take the baby on your hands with something along the lines of "Do you think [baby] will be in the way?  If you think it would be easier, I can hold [baby]."  This way she feels empowered for the decision making process, even though you nudged her in the direction you wanted her to take.

The idea behind this style of communication is to reduce the temperature from hot to cool.  It is basically a variation of the SET communication style with less emphasis on the T.

I’m just wondering about any practical advice for how to handle these situations and support D4 in particular. I’m aware that there may come a time when I decide that I no longer want to be in this marriage, especially for the sake of the children, but I’d really like to keep our family together if possible, and be as least damaging for the kids as possible. I know we’re looking far into the future, but most of all, I don’t want my kids to end up in a relationship like this.

The best way for your children to be in a relationship NOT like this is to expose them, as much as possible to 'good behaviors' at friends houses, play dates, etc.  Since you are on the bettering board right now, I cannot make a specific comment of 'no longer want to be in this marriage'; however, I am glad you are acknowledging that.

I know this is incredibly frustrating for you, and you are doing the best that you can with what you have.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[Notwendy]

I think you probably know what I am going to say about this. This is how your wife relates to people and as your children get older, have more language and relationship skills, this is how they relate to each other.  Your wife has emotional immaturity and probably matches the 4 year old at the moment. This kind of squabble between them is similar to two 4 year olds on the playground. "You touched my toy- you RUINED my day" is something a little kid would say.

The difference- the relationship between two preschoolers is even, it's age appropriate. This is how pre-schoolers act with each other. The position of parent -child isn't even. The child depends on the parent. The parent has a much larger significance to the child than a playmate does. The parent has power over the child.

This isn't to blame your wife- this is the best she can do- with anyone. She is the one who has a disorder that impacts her relationships and her emotional maturity. You can attempt to mitigate these interactions but you can not change the dynamics. The child becomes parentified in these situations because- they emotionally outgrow the parent but the positions don't change. The parent remains in control and it's an upside down situation.

I recall sitting at the dining room table when I was a young teen, and my father asked me what I was learning in school. I began to explain a subject to him. BPD mother began to act up, like a toddler does when they want the adult's attention. It was odd to see that my mother was acting that way.

This is the normal course of things. Children grow up into adults- and this is what we all want for our children- to grow into adults as they should. It's your wife who isn't able to do this due to her disorder. It's not possible for her to have an age appropriate adult- child relationship.

I think parentification is an inevitable aspect of this situation- because it's a mismatch of emotional maturity. For me, as an adult, it's a part of radical acceptance- this is the best my mother can possibly do. I think the best thing my father did for us was to have us spend time away from her, with other adults who could relate to us as adults. When we visited his family- we acted like kids.

[thankful person]

Thank you both for your thoughts. Actually I didn’t mention what happened after the balloon incident: having put D4 down at the time and then saying, “That really hurt” again (my best guess is she meant, “I’m sorry I overreacted and said such a cruel thing, but that took me by surprise and I felt disrespected and I NEVER apologise for my behaviour”) After this D2 went to bpdw for some attention and w made a fuss of her. During which time, D4 slowly crept round to me, snuggled up next to me and held my hand. This happens lots with D4. She waits until it’s safe to get some comfort from me. Often at a later time and away from w.

This evening I got in from work and w gave me the daily updates and was talking about a job interview she has on Thursday. D4 came up to me and I dared to acknowledge her and so I’ve had the silent treatment from w all evening. Hopefully no sexy texts required tonight then.

So I guess children of a bpd parent grow up with an innate understanding that they relate to this parent in a different way that they do other adults (and children). I think D4 will bear the brunt of it as the eldest and to protect the little ones. I’m glad she has me.

Another thing I’m not sure if I can do anything about: my wife still has trouble getting comfortable on the sofa but has taken to sometimes suddenly screeching “GET OUT!!” at D4 and D2 just as she does with me. She doesn’t do this when I’m not here because she has to have them under supervision all in the same room while baby naps in her arms. She admits herself that much of her “suffering” like struggling to get comfortable is much worse when I’m around. It has been hard to put down boundaries for her shouting at me to get out as I’m glad to get away when she’s like that. I wish she wouldn’t shout at the kids though and I don’t know if there’s any way to address this. Such a conversation just makes her angry because she accuses me of only caring about the kids and not her etc.

[Steppenwolf]

That sounds a lot similar to my situation here. So here the children are all developing their own coping mechanisms, which unfortunately isn't really healthy but something I am working on. However, I learned a lot from the way they are coping with the situation, which also is a kind of upside-down parentification situation...

So while it isn't healthy, it has helped me and my family I started to figure out what kind of coping mechanism they are taking on and to actually listen to the children and get them on board for support. E.g. our D6 is really hypervigilant about my uBPDw's moods. If she is starting to get anxious without knowing why I know my W is getting worked up and about to split one of us, so I can prepare much better.

So what I mean to say is, that it can be kind of helpful to listen to your kids, and enlist their inborn emotional intelligence, etc, so that it will help your family and in turn them to become more healthy. At least this has helped me a lot.

[thankful person]

That sounds a lot similar to my situation here. So here the children are all developing their own coping mechanisms, which unfortunately isn't really healthy but something I am working on. However, I learned a lot from the way they are coping with the situation, which also is a kind of upside-down parentification situation...

So while it isn't healthy, it has helped me and my family I started to figure out what kind of coping mechanism they are taking on and to actually listen to the children and get them on board for support. E.g. our D6 is really hypervigilant about my uBPDw's moods. If she is starting to get anxious without knowing why I know my W is getting worked up and about to split one of us, so I can prepare much better.

So what I mean to say is, that it can be kind of helpful to listen to your kids, and enlist their inborn emotional intelligence, etc, so that it will help your family and in turn them to become more healthy. At least this has helped me a lot.

Thank you Steppenwolf, that is very helpful. I respond much quicker now when D4 puts her hand over my mouth during what she perceives as heated moments between my wife and me. Sometimes I’m the one getting wound up and I don’t even realise it. While some may see her actions as disrespectful, I agree 100% that it’s time to shut up when she does this.

[Notwendy]

All the efforts you make will benefit the children and also benefit your relationship with them. It won't change their relationship with  their BPD parent because that is determined by her emotional capacity to have a relationship with anyone.

They may grow up to have a different relationship with you than with their BPD parent but that's a result of the difference in  capacities to have a parent- child relationship with them.

[SaltyDawg]

The coping mechanisms that the children develop are not healthy in the toxic relationships we maintain with our respective partners. 

Once I recognized the pattern, over a year ago, I changed the dynamics in my house with my then D16 & S11.

I allowed each of them to go over to friends' houses to see a different dynamic going on, mostly a more healthy one than what was going on here at my house.  I also allowed my D a lot more freedom to do this, that I would have otherwise allowed.

I modeled good behavior for my children, and encouraged my wife to do the same, while simultaneously setting up firm boundaries on "All abuse must stop" with my wife - a multi-pronged approach.  My D has actually behaved like a child this year, giggling, and is much happier.  My son is also happier, but not nearly as pronounced as my D.

These are the ways, that I have reversed the parentification of my children in my family dynamic.  If you are looking for more, you can Google "reversing parentification" for more ideas.

[thankful person]

Wow I have just googled reversing Parentification and I can’t believe how much info is out there and will certainly be looking into this. Most of what I have seen is about adults healing from their past, but I will see about helping young children right now and share if I find anything. Salty dawg, I am so glad your kids are doing better. I have been meaning to ask you about the “All abuse must stop” boundary and how you raised and quantified this with your wife. I already touched on this the other day when I shared with my wife that keeping me awake was a form of emotional abuse. She doesn’t take it seriously because she thinks I’m abusing her in denying her the sex life she craves.

[Steppenwolf]

Thank you Steppenwolf, that is very helpful. I respond much quicker now when D4 puts her hand over my mouth during what she perceives as heated moments between my wife and me. Sometimes I’m the one getting wound up and I don’t even realise it. While some may see her actions as disrespectful, I agree 100% that it’s time to shut up when she does this.

The point about "not seeing her actions as disrespectful" is really important. Thank you for that. A lot of people see our children as disrespectful a lot of times, my W included. But it is really important for me to see it as (unhealthy) coping mechanisms, that I have to help them get around.

My W is really wound up on these coping mechanisms and tries to change them (i.e. change the children) without allowing herself to change. I just talked to her about therapy and change a while ago, but she doesn't want to go into therapy, as she doesn't want to change. She's "happy" with herself (well, she is suffering, and says she wants everything to end almost daily, but anyway) and all the other people are responsible and should change, not her. Well, the point is, I have come to realize that the coping mechanisms of the children can only change if both my W and I allow them to change, and as long as we don't we don't get to call them disrespectful. I try to live by that rule for myself as often as possible, and I found accepting the children with their coping mechanisms has already given them space to change for themselves and find a better way to deal with it. Ok, this sounds a bit like psycho mumbo-jumbo, but I hope you get the idea.


Maybe you should have a look at the Disney movie "Encanto". It's about a dysfunctional family and the roles all the people in this family take on. From what I read, the movie was actually meant to also have a therapeutic component, and they had actual therapists on board when designing the roles. I think of my D6 as Dolores from that movie when she becomes hypervigilant, and seeing it portrayed in that movie helped me see, that this also must feel really painful to her.

Also, Pepa (the likely pwBPD in that movie) is really portrayed without stigmatization. I have "We don't talk about Bruno" on repeat when my W is in avoidant mode and it helps me give her more space without being enabling.

[thankful person]

Thanks Steppenwolf, yes I hate it when my wife criticises the children for their reactions which to me seem not unreasonable. Like sometimes she screeches at us all to get out of the living room, but if they ever scream for whatever reason then they also have to get out of the living room.. the rules don’t even make sense. I rarely choose what we watch round here but I’ll certainly look out for Encanto, I heard it was good.

[SaltyDawg]

I have been meaning to ask you about the “All abuse must stop” boundary and how you raised and quantified this with your wife. I already touched on this the other day when I shared with my wife that keeping me awake was a form of emotional abuse. She doesn’t take it seriously because she thinks I’m abusing her in denying her the sex life she craves.

Since this thread is yours, and you have asked the question on setting up the boundary of "All abuse must stop" - the short answer it is a 'work in progress' - she has reduced the amount of abuse substantially; however, it is still being done.  It is a long two week story, my wife, through her T started to apologize for her bad behaviors, which prompted my wife to open up Pandora's box on her > ten-thousand abuses.  An impossible number to individually apologize for.

I was able to categorize the abuses into 7 general categories, 5 of which she had already accomplished and stop which included physical violence and other trauma inducing behaviors.  However, the last two categories, are the most common, and the most difficult to address.  The 6th being a very broad category that covers verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse patterns that are partially listed in this article https://www.verywellmind.com/identify-and-cope-with-emotional-abuse-4156673.

Here is the list that I wrote and read to her in front of our couple's T [italics not verbalized, although written]:

1. Half dozen attempted Self Murders (Suicide), 2003-2022
2. Half dozen acts of Domestic Violence towards me, 2009-2022
3. Attempted Blackmail (threatening to make false statements against me to authorities) - new escalated repeated behavior since 2022
4. Accused of having multiple affairs - all untrue, 2008-2023
5. Countless Threats of Divorce / Separation, 2010-2023
6. Up to multiple times per day, every day, verbal / psychological / mental / and other abusive behaviors, 2003-present [a good, but incomplete list can be found at: https://www.verywellmind.com/identify-and-cope-with-emotional-abuse-4156673]
7. Continuous and apparently deliberate withholding of affections, admiration, sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, and appreciation after doing an overabundance of all of these behaviors, all or nothing mentality, which can most accurately be described as "Love Bombing" within the context of the abusive relationships [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_bombing], 2006-present

Ironically, the 7th category that I identified, contains the same one that your wife has identified of you, the apparent withholding of sexual fulfillment (even though you have tried for hours and hours to do this, so you aren't even though she perceives that you are) - the deliberate withholding of love languages for your partner - otherwise known as stonewalling - I can see your wife's perspective on this issue.  The Wikipedia article states " the abuser withdraws all affection or positive reinforcement and instead punishes the victim with whatever they feel is appropriate" ...

So, my wife, can accuse me of being abusive towards her (she hasn't yet, unlike yours), as I limit my love languages to at least the same number of hours and generally more that she puts forward to me, I will no longer unconditionally be her 'slave' giving everything I have for her while accepting almost nothing in return at a >100:1 ratio, instead I target a 60/40 ratio, which is close to the ideal 50/50 reciprocity ratio.  It is a fine line to set a boundary of this nature, as it can easily become abusive if all positive reinforcement is removed, or an excessive amount is removed.

When it comes to my wife expressing her feelings as facts, the couple's T gets swept up into being my wife's flying monkey, as my wife expresses her genuine feelings on the matter, and I spend a large percentage of time refuting my wife's feelings that are not backed up with facts that should support those feelings, but cannot since they are fabricated.  It is very tricky, when you are dealing with this type of disassociation, which from all outward appearances is 'gas lighting' - but technically it isn't as my wife is not doing it consciously, but rather subconsciously.

This is a very brief version, as this was a two week process I did with my wife.  She was hoping, I would no longer bring up issues, which I promised to do, conditionally, provided that these behaviors stopped, while they haven't stopped, so I can now shine a light on them, so they can hopefully be addressed in couple's therapy (she won't listen to me, but has a better chance of listening to the couple's therapist).  It is a slow process, which has been largely successful in the past on issues 1-5; however, as we are dealing with issues of disassociation the progress has slowed down significantly.

I hope that makes sense.  If you want me to expand on this issue, I would suggest starting a seperate thread on boundaries and I would be willing to go into more details.

Take care with self-care.

[thankful person]

SD, thanks for this. My wife was actually withholding all physical affection with the explanation that I deserve to suffer because she’s suffering because she wants me to turn her on verbally or through messages and not just physical. It is related to her childhood abuse which had to happen quietly. It doesn’t come naturally to me and I prefer to express myself physically. The hoops she had me jumping through I think definitely amounted to abuse. Anyway things aren’t as bad now thankfully I’ll enjoy the good times while I can.

Regarding Parentification, as I said, most of the articles are about healing adults well after the fact. But I read some wonderful advice which I think echoes your observations of your daughter, which is just to play with the child and have fun with them. I’m always focused on my own chores, teaching them sharing with siblings, and not making Mummy angry, and I’m going to spend more time with D4 just making her laugh and having fun so she can feel more like a child. I’m sure many parents find it hard to find the time and energy but I realise it’s especially important to offset her experiences with bpd Mummy and allow her to just be a child and laugh a bit more.

[Turkish]

The tools here for validation work with anybody, not just pwBPD. You can validate your children, age appropriately though I realize it's a fine line not to slouch towards parental alienation, especially in the same household.

Shortly after we separated, my ex called me. She had taken them D1 and S4 (barely 4) on a trip to the coast and she was triggered and went off on them. She felt shame and locked herself in the bathroom. S4 called out, "I'm sorry that I made you upset mommy. " to her credit, she called me for feedback. It was similar to the dynamic that I saw when she was living with us. She told him that he wasn't responsible for her feelings, even though implicitly asking him to "rescue" her 

Now almost 14, he tends to be a bit more disrespectful to her than I like as a typical teenager, but at least he's escaped being a child parent. D11 is still a WIP, but she's always been feisty.

You might benefit from reading through this to glean some insight and strategies:

Problematic Parenting

[SaltyDawg]

You might benefit from reading through this to glean some insight and strategies:

Problematic Parenting

Turkish,

   Thank you so much for sharing that link, so much of that article resonates with my situation (ugh), and I learned quite a bit from it, even though I already figured out quite a bit too.  I strongly request/suggest making JoannaK's post a link on the https://bpdfamily.com/portfolio-child page or even under the top level 'Tips' menu.

SaltyDawg

   

[thankful person]

You might benefit from reading through this to glean some insight and strategies:

Problematic Parenting

Thanks Turkish, this is excellent and very helpful as there is so much to learn on here that I have missed some of it. I’ll certainly read through it all.