Things have gone Pear Shaped with by Parent with BPD

[Flannelflower]

Hello,
I am really struggling at the moment and wondered if I might get some wisdom from this group.
A bit of context - I have been dealing with my mum with severe BPD my whole life.  I thought I had got to a good place of boundaries and not taking things personally and was 'managing' with not too much contact and not getting caught in drama. 
However, recently things have not gone well.  We had a meeting with her nursing home around her behaviours (shouting at staff, putting in complaints to authorities, calling the police).  None of these are new behaviours.  No one knows how to manage her. (She has moved to 7 different NH in the past 5 years when things go bad).
She keeps calling me to complain about the Home.  Rang me recently hysterically that she couldn't get to see a doctor.  (She had been diagnosed with some asthma but wasn't happy with this, and told me she was choking to death and no-one would help her).
When I rang the NH they said she has seen doctor and won't take advice.  They were calling in another doctor and were waiting for them.  Next day I get another call.  So I call the NH again. They told me 'The doctor came last night but she refused to see them.'  Then I get another call from mum saying 'I really need your help, I still haven't seen a doctor - they're saying I refused them which I DIDN'T."
I decided this time to say that I believe the doctor did come, but I'm not asking her to agree with that and we can talk about something else. 
She went into a rage - that's all Lies.  I should HONOR my mother.  She's disgusted.  I need to talk to my minister, and then hung up on me.
For some reason her saying she was disgusted with me, in such a cold and angry way, triggered the childhood abuse and I have spiralled since then.
I decided I wouldn't speak with her again unless she apologised.  And I wouldn't answer the phone and let her leave a message so I knew she was sorry.
A week or so later she was involving my brother to call me.  All she was concerned about was that I believe her that the doctor did come.  When he told her that I was upset she had told me off and hung up on me she told him, that's not what happened.  She shouted at ME and called me a liar.
So I've stayed away and now it has been 2 months.  I feel so guilty for not being in contact with her.  I wish I had said nothing about the doctor.  I realise that she will never agree with the truth of what happened and I wish I had just taken her next call and let it go.  But I also feel like I am struggling with being ME in any relationship with her.  I just got tired of appeasing I guess.  No matter how calmly I try to say something it just doesn't work. 
I realise even though I thought I had accepted the way she has always been and will never change, and grieved the losses - that there was deeper stuff there still to come out.  Since not talking to her I have been going through much grief and distress, and guilt.  I don't know what to do.  My therapist thinks I should just hold the boundary that I expect to be treated with respect and to wait for an apology.  I don't know if she knows much about BPD though.
Does anyone have some wisdom for me?  I'm sorry this is so long....

[Red Admiral]

I'm so sorry that you are feeling confused at the moment. Sadly it is all too often a knock on effect when you are continually being brought into a  dysfunctional situation one not of your making. Your mothers behaviour is clearly effecting many people at the moment and for there to have been so many different moves from one Nursing Home to another it speaks volumes. She is clearly out of control and is projecting her lack of control onto you which is making you feel guilty (because you are caring). All the cards are being played at the moment that are used against those who are on the receiving end of BPD and NPD behavioural patterns. Fear Obligation and Guilt our laid at our doorstep and it is difficult when you are good hearted to not fall prey to the cycle and get in a loop of uncertainty. It is hard because at the moment you are in limbo as you seem to be teetering between Low Contact and No Contact and it is perfectly normal to feel confused and very hurt. Although it is easier said than done try and be gentle with yourself and take each day as it comes. Journalling is brilliant when you feel confused and guilty for no logical reason. I went No Contact with my mother who had Narcissistic Personality Disorder (she was actually diagnosed) and even though she was an incredibly manipulative and cruel individual I felt the same for about six months and questioned my decision. Which for me was right and after two years I felt free of all the shackles she had emotionally placed on me. We are all different and there is no right or wrong in situations like this and No Contact is not for everybody. You have taken a brave step in setting a boundary and it is easy when you are sad to drop it back down. As she is in a Nursing home there is a distance between you and time for you to think what you truly want to do. I would use this time to be very proud of your first step and try not to get caught back into the drama she is creating. Time and space clears your head and then if you decided to have limited contact you will be able to do so from a point of safety and mental clarity. I live with my father who has BPD and I truly understand just how unpleasant they can be. He is old and I am just about hanging in there, they are masters at manipulating situations whether intentional or not it is almost impossible to deal with them. You did not cause or create this situation and nor can you cure the impossible all you can do is look after yourself, do not doubt your self or your ability to have healthy relationships sadly  the problem lies with the person who has a disorder that impacts others. Stay strong I hope it helps to know that you are absolutely not alone there are sadly millions of us out there in the same position.

[Flannelflower]

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response Red Admiral. It is indeed a comfort to find there are others who can really understand and empathise with what I am facing.
Everything you said made so much sense. I can see that it will be so easy for me to fall back into the same patterns from Fear, Obligation and Guilt. As you said she is in a NH and is cared for. One of the nurses who I spoke to and understands my situation has told me a couple of times that my mum is ok there and not to worry - they would let me know if there was any real emergency with her.
I feel like I am currently in No Contact by a series of dramas that got out of hand. But I think I should take this opportunity to focus on myself and my own healing and see if that is best for me. I think even the past two months of not dealing with each new crisis have opened up the space for things long suppressed to come to the surface. Your idea of journaling, and also taking each day at a time and being kind to myself really resonated with me.  My son who was staying with us when all this was happening and could see how it has impacted me said he thought I should step away - he said I wonder if you did if you would feel a whole lot better in a years time.  I was interested that this has been your experience. Thanks again for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it.

[Red Admiral]

My pleasure Flannelflower I agree it is the perfect opportunity to think about yourself. All too often we think about others and neglect ourselves, when truly we should take priority which is easier said than done particularly when you are naturally kind and empathetic, I am guilty too of doing precisely the same. Your mum is safe and cared for and although by the sounds of it she is creating merry hell in the NH the people who are dealing with her are emotionally detached from the situation and her words will not effect them as they do you. Journalling is brilliant I wrote everything down that was in my heart and what I felt that I was never allowed to say through fear of retaliation. I brought a lovely big A4 note book and thought I would write in my normal neat hand... But as it was written without censor it was incredibly messy and words relating to a million emotions came flooding out of me. I then made a point of burning them in the garden in a metal container to release them. There is a beautiful piece of music from the film The Kingdom Of Heaven called Burning The Past which I played whilst doing so. I cried and let each page go and I felt relief ... I burnt many pages and cried many tears but I was letting hidden things come to the surface that needed to be addressed. If I was angry which is perfectly normal I played a song called I don't Care Anymore by Phil Collins music and lyrics seem always to help me. I also love reading Desiderata By Max Erhmann. I am still dealing with problems as my father has BPD and living with him is incredibly difficult but regardless of another's deregulated actions I am doggedly determined that I will not let others to define or change me. I am proud of who I am and you should be too. On difficult days I will vent and rant on here and there will undoubtedly be many more occasions that I do!  I thank God that this site is available to all of us who have to deal with almost intolerable situations. Take Care

[Notwendy]

There are several of us posters here who have elderly parents with BPD.

My BPD mother has gone back and forth between her assisted living and skilled nursing. In actuality, she does better at the skilled nursing facility. She likes the food and eats better, her overall health is better there, and she hates being there. It's understandable she'd prefer the privacy and more self direction that she has at the AL- she gets better care at the NH. Within days of returning to the AL- she's complaining about them being inadequate, yet she won't consider staying at the NH. I agree, the room situation is not as nice but there's a dining room and activities but she wants to just stay in her room and so prefers the nicer room at the AL.

The Karmpan (drama) triangle helped me to understand the dynamics between her and other people. She takes on the victim perspective. Nothing is her fault, it's someone or something else. If you are the "bad guy" to her situation- it isn't personal to you. It's difficult but this is her perspective.

The "honor your parent" part something for you to work out for yourself. If you are religious, I would advise you to speak to your clergy about this to help you with aligning with your own values. For my mother, I think it would mean being her servant and also tolerating her verbal and emotional abuse. The way I have learned to see this is different. Honoring a parent may not mean doing what they want you to do. What if they asked you do something that isn't good for them? I am not "honoring" my mother by enabling her to be abusive so I don't engage her when she's being that way.

I think the guilt is something we also experience. Sometimes we might lean to the side of doing too much and then also possibly too little. I think we are all just doing an imperfect job in a difficult situation to the best of our abilities.

It's not easy to see a parent be angry or upset- but it helps to understand that what your BPD parent says is more about them than you.

[beatricex]

hi FlannelFlower,
I get what you're going through.  Your mother is displaying some of the classic "bait and switch" tactics.  She is also triangulated with your brother.

Your son is wise to "see what happens after a year of no contact."

I understand how distressing this is for you to go no contact for several months.  I also get your expectation is that she will call and apologize.  Or at least stop lying to herself and you about what happened.  On the other hand, you're regretting bringing it up at all, since you know better (Radical Acceptance - it means we get they cannot change and we accept them for who they are - we now this intuitively, but we FEEL hurt they cannot change).

There is a book The Body Keeps Score and it is about grief and all the ways we hold grief in, and perhaps this will resonate with you.  Is this your time to let go of all those feelings you've been holding onto?  Your body may be tired, that's all. 

What do you think?

 
b

[Flannelflower]

I can't work out how to respond to you individually so I will post responses  and hope you all see them.  This is an amazing community and I feel thankful for all your responses.
Red Admiral - I will definitely check out those songs and book you mentioned.  And thanks for the journalling information.
You are right, mum is causing merry hell in the NH as she has in all the past ones and hence why we need family meetings. 
I am so sorry to hear that you are still dealing with these issues with your dad.  And living with him must be so challenging.  It sounds like all the work you have done has made you stronger to cope.  I think you are right that I need to focus on myself for the time being and see where that takes me.  It does sound like doing that really helped you in your healing 

[Flannelflower]

Thanks NotWendy.  All good points that you make too.  I agree with your perspective on honouring - and yes, honouring my mother to her means always believing story over the evidence, doing whatever she wants, agreeing with her on everything.  : (
And yes, I can see that we are all doing the best we can in a very difficult situation and shouldn't beat ourselves up so much about whether we're doing a perfect job of coping with difficult behaviours.  I hope your mum gets settled in the NH if that is the best option for her and that helps you too.   

[Flannelflower]

Hi Beatricex,
You summed up the mixed emotions I'm feeling perfectly.  I KNOW things are not going to go well if I push back.  I asked the staff a number of times if it was definitely true the doctor has been and they said yes, it had been logged in the book and that is a legal document.  Then I think I was feeling drained after all the pleading emotional calls to advocate for her again only to find she had the opportunity to see the doctor and didn't and now wants to deny it.  I felt I was on solid ground with the evidence but of course I should have known by now that the facts are not what is important to her but her emotions and she will deny whatever she doesn't want to own regardless of how obvious it is.  But I had thought I had got to Radical Acceptance, had been good at Grey Rocking, letting things go knowing she will never change.  Then I felt like I blew everything up by as gently as I could challenging her and now after her blow up triggered me so much I don't feel like I can or want to go back in for more.

Of course as well the idea of an apology, or her stopping lying to herself and others about what happened with me is an exercise in disappointment again.  So I feel at a stand-off - she won't/can't back down and I'm too bruised and to be honest tired of having to live in her reality that I feel stuck in a place where things can't be resolved.

I think you are perfectly right Beatricex - I think I have been holding in the pain and grief and trauma in order to manage some sort of relationship with my mother, and now I am just worn out and want to deeply work on letting go of all of that and I don't think I can do it while in contact with my mother being retriggered.  (I was just talking to my husband today about how he took 6 months off work after feeling burnt out, and said it took him that long to feel refreshed and ready to take up a new role, and he wondered if I am also burnt out and need to take time away so your comment really resonated with me). 

In the past few years we have also been through the death of my dad, and mum's condition then meant she screamed at him, threw things at him when he wasn't giving her attention, until finally in his last week they had to move him to a new nursing home so that he could die in peace.  Seeing him there in a foreign environment where no-one knew him and he had to separate from my mum right at the end was traumatising for everyone (including the NH) and so I think so much has just built up and up.  I will check out that book you spoke about - The Body Keeps the Score.  It sounds helpful.  Thanks for taking time to reply to me 

[Teach21]

Thanks NotWendy.  All good points that you make too.  I agree with your perspective on honouring - and yes, honouring my mother to her means always believing story over the evidence, doing whatever she wants, agreeing with her on everything.  : (
And yes, I can see that we are all doing the best we can in a very difficult situation and shouldn't beat ourselves up so much about whether we're doing a perfect job of coping with difficult behaviours.  I hope your mum gets settled in the NH if that is the best option for her and that helps you too.   

Your original post really resonated with me. I too feel like I can never really be ME...the real me. Every response and word spoken to my mom has to be carefully weighed and edited. My mom also tells me I'm not honoring her or that I should honor her, and I allow it to guilt me.  I don't have any words of wisdom as I'm just learning how to navigate BPD myself, but it's nice knowing we are not alone. I really liked what someone else said that it is not honoring to our moms to allow the abuse. I also don't think honoring means "obey". It means to respect her position as "mom" and treat her respectfully. My mom thinks it means I should take her side all the time, defend her, obey her, and do whatever she tells me to do.  I'm learning that the trauma she has suffered in life doesn't mean she's allowed to abuse me.

[Flannelflower]

. My mom thinks it means I should take her side all the time, defend her, obey her, and do whatever she tells me to do.  I'm learning that the trauma she has suffered in life doesn't mean she's allowed to abuse me.
[/quote]

Thanks teach21. I’m glad my post resonated with you and know that you are not alone in your struggles with your mum.  Your comment about weighing every comment in your interactions - I so relate!  It is so tiring and draining to be doing that : (

Also your quote above about honouring is exactly how my mum sees it too - and when you know it’s the other side that’s right anyway but you are being pulled in it is crazy making.  That’s why my mum got so angry when I said I believe the doctor did come but we don’t have to talk about it - it is because I HAVE to believe her and take her side against the nursing home. Sadly she also makes complaints against them to all the channels she can and even calls the police against them so and keeps trying to pull me even.

Thanks for letting me know your experiences. It doesn’t matter not having any wisdom as just hearing your experiences makes me feel like there are people like you here who understand fully what it’s like and we can support each other with validation and empathy.

Like your mum my mother suffered trauma and I really do feel sorry for her but like you I’ve been told that doesn’t mean I should accept abuse.  Has your mum ever tried to get help?  My mum has been told she needs meds and to see a psychiatrist but she has always refused meds and cancelled the psych appointments : (

[Flannelflower]

My mom thinks it means I should take her side all the time, defend her, obey her, and do whatever she tells me to do.  I'm learning that the trauma she has suffered in life doesn't mean she's allowed to abuse me.

I’m just playing around with how to respond to other posts!

[Flannelflower]

hi FlannelFlower,
I get what you're going through.  Your mother is displaying some of the classic "bait and switch" tactics.  She is also triangulated with your brother.

Your son is wise to "see what happens after a year of no contact."

I understand how distressing this is for you to go no contact for several months.  I also get your expectation is that she will call and apologize.  Or at least stop lying to herself and you about what happened.  On the other hand, you're regretting bringing it up at all, since you know better (Radical Acceptance - it means we get they cannot change and we accept them for who they are - we now this intuitively, but we FEEL hurt they cannot change).

There is a book The Body Keeps Score and it is about grief and all the ways we hold grief in, and perhaps this will resonate with you.  Is this your time to let go of all those feelings you've been holding onto?  Your body may be tired, that's all. 

What do you think?

 
b

Thanks for this. I responded above but am trying to work out how to ‘respond’ to comments.

[Teach21]

That’s why my mum got so angry when I said I believe the doctor did come but we don’t have to talk about it - it is because I HAVE to believe her and take her side against the nursing home.

Like your mum my mother suffered trauma and I really do feel sorry for her but like you I’ve been told that doesn’t mean I should accept abuse.  Has your mum ever tried to get help?  My mum has been told she needs meds and to see a psychiatrist but she has always refused meds and cancelled the psych appointments : (

Anytime my mom has gone for counseling and the counselor sees a problem with her, she doesn't like that counselor and wants to go somewhere else. My mom doesn't realize she's the problem. My brother and sister have had NC for 14 years. My sons quit messaging with her. (She lives in another country) She has no contact with anyone except me, one of her sisters, and one cousin who she behaves very well for.  Yet, she doesn't see that she is the common denominator among all her failed relationships. She blames the other person. She's the victim. People have rejected her and ostracized her when she's done nothing wrong.  I feel very sorry for her. As I read somewhere on here, people with BPD are victims of their own disorder.

[Flannelflower]

Oh Tech21 - that is exactly my mum too…she has had counselling at times but only wants it for sympathy and to tell them how everyone has done wrong to her and stops as soon as the counsellor starts to look at things she could do.
You’re right - it is very sad and tragic seeing someone in so much turmoil caused by a disorder they can’t see or acknowledge
How did your siblings cope with no contact and has it impacted your relationship with them?
I messaged one of my brothers recently to apologise for dropping out after my bad interaction. He had just visited her on the weekend and said it’s probably best to take a break if I can’t cope with her as she will never change. Then told me about her getting angry with the worker for bringing her chocolate milk when she asked for chocolate mousse - and I just thought - no, I can’t cope with that right now

[Methuen]

Oh Flannelflower, Iunderstood.

When I rang the NH they said she has seen doctor and won't take advice.  They were calling in another doctor and were waiting for them.  Next day I get another call.  So I call the NH again. They told me 'The doctor came last night but she refused to see them.'  Then I get another call from mum saying 'I really need your help

  I feel so guilty for not being in contact with her.  I wish I had said nothing about the doctor.  I realise that she will never agree with the truth of what happened and I wish I had just taken her next call and let it go. 

You did nothing wrong. You were coming from a place of logic and rational thinking.  Saying what you said was the truth.  The truth is not wrong.  But I understand how hard it is not to question yourself.

Stay in your lane.

What you are going through right now is the deep psychological stuff we all go through in these instances.

If you cave now, it reinforces her bad behavior and emboldens her further in the future.  It also sends her the message she is right.

So my advice is to stay in your lane. 

You do sound burned out.  It happens.  That’s our body and mind telling us we need to take some time to heal ourselves.

Engage in some serious self care- whatever that looks like for you.  And for as long as it takes.  You will know when you are feeling well enough to manage contact with her again.

In the meantime, she is being cared for.

On the point about the desired apology, cross that bridge when you feel strong enough to manage contact.  Sometimes we have to meet them where they’re at.  My mom has never apologized.  They’re in some alternate reality.  More likely for me is that it gets swept under the bridge as if it never happened. 

But she will still have learned something from it.  By pushing that hard she lost contact with you.  And she needs you. So she might not push like that again for a while.

In the meantime, take this time to heal yourself.

I am curious, how did your mom go to a nursing home?  Did she go willingly?  Or is that another story?

[Flannelflower]

Thank you so much Methuen,  Your message was exactly what I needed to hear at this time.  I know my upbringing has led to me keeping on second guessing my actions and words and it was so helpful to hear that I haven't done anything wrong by saying the truth.  Of course this isn't the first time mum has lied about things, twisted the truth etc, she does it all the time.  : (

Also with my temptation to go back in I can see it is really just to avoid going through that deep psychological work that you were talking about.  I have dabbled on the surface of trying to figure this out and manage it for years....but with her still in the picture a lot of it was focussed on how to manage my interactions with her.  So I can see the wisdom in 'staying in my lane' and using this time to face these deeper wounds.

Growing up we were always told by my father, 'don't upset mum....look after mum', so that I am really struggling to for once take my focus of her and how she is going and focus on my own healing of mind and body.  Your advice of taking this time to really self care was also really helpful.  As you say I think I will know when I feel ready to re-engage - and I definitely don't feel like that now. 

In terms of the nursing home....my dad was quite a bit older than my mum.  He care-took her his whole life, emotionally and physically, making her dependence entrenched.  When he got cancer she wasn't looking after him (he was still trying to do everything for her), so had to go into a nursing home.  And she had to go too as she wouldn't survive by herself.  Being a bit young and not physically frail they had to focus on her mental health needs to get her the permission from the Government (they had a publicly funded place as no funding of their own) to get her in.  At least that meant we knew she would be safe and cared for when dad passed away, as she is so emotionally needy she could never take care of herself and none of us would have survived taking her in.

She expects the Nursing Home to serve her 24/7 and has no patience to wait, fights with them and alienates the staff.  That's why she has moved to 7 different homes as she thinks they are all terrible and keeps looking for the perfect one that will meet all her needs.  It's very sad. 

[Tassielass]

I'm with you too Flannelflower!

What a difference it makes not feeling alone in this. I still get amazed by how similar our situations and stories are.

Methuen, your advice and perspectives on dealing with these kinds of relationships is truly invaluable! I needed to be reminded of these things today as well.

Flannelflower, I've just come back from a wonderful 3 week, minimal contact break where I just did things I wanted to do for me (around my work hours). It was glorious and by the end of it I wasn't thinking about my uBPD / uNPD mother and my husband and son and I weren't talking about her either. It was bliss!

My mother is also aging and showing signs of mental & physical health decline. She refuses to see a Dr. She's not in a nursing home yet but is requiring a good deal of at home care (by service providers, not us).

Over the last few days she's back in that place of neediness, reality flipping, boundary pushing & just under the surface rage. And we get to take her shopping today, lucky us! I'm so going to be using the mantra 'stay in your lane'. That and lots of slow breaths. Probably a drink or two afterwards as well.

[Teach21]

How did your siblings cope with no contact and has it impacted your relationship with them?

My brother has a lot of anger toward my mom and unforgiveness. I can't really talk to him about her without him getting mad. My sister is an avoidant and will cut people out of her life who she feels are toxic. She doesn't look back. She feels bad but won't "deal with her" and the constant strife. She has 3 teenagers and doesn't want them to be subjected to her.

It impacts our relationship only when my mom has me run interference. I've learned she's good at triangulating me, making me feel guilty, and manipulating me. She always asks about them and wants me to tell her the details of their lives. Then she asks questions I can't answer and will get upset at me.  I've talked to my brother and sister countless times to try to get them to reconcile with her but also understand why they don't. My mom thinks that if I would try harder or talk to them more, they would reconcile. She blames me and that I'm not doing enough.  They get tired of me bringing up the subject. 
I recently went to my brother and sister-in-laws house because my SIL's mother died. My mom wanted me to talk to my brother about how wrong he was and that he needed to contact my mom. (Even though that is totally inappropriate when I'm going there for a funeral, and they're grieving!) She told me if I didn't she would burn the photo album she has of me and my siblings as children.  It's the one possession she knows I really care about and want to have after she passes away.  It's hard to heal from trauma when we are still right in the middle of it. 

[Flannelflower]

IShe blames me and that I'm not doing enough.  They get tired of me bringing up the subject. 
I recently went to my brother and sister-in-laws house because my SIL's mother died. My mom wanted me to talk to my brother about how wrong he was and that he needed to contact my mom. (Even though that is totally inappropriate when I'm going there for a funeral, and they're grieving!) She told me if I didn't she would burn the photo album she has of me and my siblings as children.  It's the one possession she knows I really care about and want to have after she passes away.  It's hard to heal from trauma when we are still right in the middle of it. 

That is really tough for all of you - but especially for you being in the middle of everyone.  How awful to have it threatened to have your photo album burnt if you don't keep trying to triangulate for her....even though you have already tried to get them to reconcile and they clearly don't want to.  You are doing an amazing job to keep going with your mum.

Even though I'm open to be back in contact with my mum at some point at the moment I feel like I've really hit a wall and the thought of dealing with her makes me feel very stressed.  So I am just going to focus on myself for now for as long as it takes. 

My brother who visited her recently told me to take a break if I can't cope with her - which is kind and understanding of him.  So far my mother hasn't really tried to get them to pressure me.  It actually feels like the opposite where she hasn't really bothered and hasn't tried too hard to do anything.  I should be thankful although it also hurts a bit....if I was estranged from any of my kids I'd do whatever it took on my part to make it right.  {sigh}

[Flannelflower]

I'm with you too Flannelflower!

What a difference it makes not feeling alone in this. I still get amazed by how similar our situations and stories are.


Over the last few days she's back in that place of neediness, reality flipping, boundary pushing & just under the surface rage. And we get to take her shopping today, lucky us! I'm so going to be using the mantra 'stay in your lane'. That and lots of slow breaths. Probably a drink or two afterwards as well.

It really does make a huge difference to not feel alone.  I too am amazed by the similarity of situations and stories.  I think if I had found this support group earlier I may have been able to keep going as I would know there is somewhere I could come and people would totally get it.

Yes,  that is so familiar - neediness, reality flipping, boundary pushing and just under the surface rage!  My brother recently said when he is talking to her (he can push back on her much more than I can, I think she's a bit scared of him) he said he can sense there is a rage that she is just managing to keep under control.  With me she more often succumbs to let it out (like she used to with my dad).

I had a laugh about your mention of maybe a few drinks after being in contact with your mum - I always say that to my husband too....is there somewhere we can go for a drink   

[Flannelflower]

I'm just wondering Teach21, if you would feel comfortable just telling your mum, 'yes mum I keep asking them.  I hope they get in touch with you soon', even if you're not as a way to keep her from making good on her threats?
 

[Flannelflower]

In the midst of all this I have been wondering what to do now that Christmas is coming....
When my mother last verbally attacked me on the phone and told me she was disgusted with me and hung up on me I didn't want to talk to her again unless she apologised.  I disconnected my home phone and blocked her calls on my mobile - but she is able to leave voicemail on my mobile.  I thought if she was sorry she could leave a message there and if I felt she was sorry I could contact her.

I think she may have tried calling me but hasn't left any messages, so I have just taken this time out to deal with my own stress and triggered emotions.

My therapist thinks I should wait for an apology - although I'm not sure how much she understands BPD/NPD - as folks have said on here that is unlikely.  So part of what I'm struggling with is....do I just stay back as long as she doesn't contact me.  And work out what to do if she does.

Then the thought of Christmas comes up.  In the past I have been low contact with her at this time of the year and when I sent her a card she immediately saw that as a sign that everything is now fine and dandy and called me (no apology, just an excuse how it was the NH's fault that she screamed at me that time) and I just let it go and we carried on as 'normal'.

I'm not ready to do that this time - so I wondered....any thoughts....should I not send her a card and stay total No Contact....send her a card which is just basically greetings but not respond to anything further from her until I'm ready.  Or could I send her a card with a message that says something like:  Happy Christmas.  I found our last call upsetting and know we won't agree on what happened there.  But I feel like I need time to deal with my own issues and I'm not sure how long that will take but I will be in touch when I feel ready.   

[Notwendy]

I
My therapist thinks I should wait for an apology - although I'm not sure how much she understands BPD/NPD - as folks have said on here that is unlikely. 

Or could I send her a card with a message that says something like:  Happy Christmas.  I found our last call upsetting and know we won't agree on what happened there.  But I feel like I need time to deal with my own issues and I'm not sure how long that will take but I will be in touch when I feel ready.   

I would not sent a card with any message like that. I would also not expect an apology- what I have noticed is that- pwBPD don't apologize- because if someone sees their situation from victim perspective- they don't feel responsible for their behavior. An apology requires being accountable but if they are to be accountable. this also causes a feeling of shame for someone with BPD and that is a difficult emotion for them.

The Karman triangle dynamics helped me to understand this. If you say something like "you have hurt my feelings" that is from victim perspective. You may feel correct and want understanding but something like this would be perceived by my BPD mother as a criticism and likely she'd be indignant. Also because anything in writing she collects and this would be "evidence" of the "horrible card" I sent her.

A counselor helped me to decide how to react and her idea is to be non reactive- stay in the middle. If what I usually do is send a card, then do the same- as not sending one or sending something more is being reactive. Whatever you do- send if from your feeling "centered" out of your own values. How she perceives this is not something you can control. The decision is for you. If you feel uncomfortable sending one- don't send it. If you choose no contact, this means none at all. If you are low contact- and you feel uncomfortable not sending a card- send one but keep it neutral.

"Happy Christmas" seems neutral to me. We say it to people we hardly know- it doesn't imply anything beyond a greeting. Do not send anything emotional. IMHO this is reactive and it will likely escalate the situation.

She may think things are fine and dandy and call- you can decide to speak to her or not. I am LC with my mother - not in whether or not we speak but in the content of what we talk about. I don't share personal information, and avoid being emotional as much as possible. I try to stick to general topics and events that are not private.

Her calling you as if things are OK is what I call the "dry erase board apology". There is no point in going over what happened. Once my mother is over whatever she is angry about - it's as if it didn't happen. It's frustrating on your part as what you would wish to do is to talk it out and get to a place of understanding. This does not work with my BPD mother.

[Teach21]

I'm just wondering Teach21, if you would feel comfortable just telling your mum, 'yes mum I keep asking them.  I hope they get in touch with you soon', even if you're not as a way to keep her from making good on her threats?
 

I would feel comfortable doing that because I have asked them enough over the years. My mom wants every detail of every conversation.She wants to know what I said and what they said.  This time of year I feel a lot of anxiety because of Thanksgiving. She lives in another country half way around the world, but it is still constant strife with her. She brings up a Thanksgiving 30 years ago when she was left out and goes into a depression.  I don't want to talk to her about the holiday or my brother and sister anymore. I've tried to set boundaries but am not good at it. She is good at getting me to engage.  She says if I don't answer her questions, she will cut off contact with me. I actually called her bluff the last time she said that and told her that was her choice.  We mostly only text with each other due to where she is located and that every phone call ends with her mad at me. I'm filled with anxiety when communicating with her.  Her life is constant hell, she vents to me, and then tells me I'm not supportive enough, I'm cold, indifferent, unloving when I try so hard to be empathetic. I feel guilty and sad for her because of her age, poor health, emotional and physical pain, and that she is alone. I feel like it's my duty to be there for her.  She's threatened to commit suicide my whole life, and it's awful, but sometimes I just wish it would be over. I only went to counseling for a little bit because I cannot afford it but need to go again and also really learn how to set and keep boundaries.

[Teach21]

My therapist thinks I should wait for an apology - although I'm not sure how much she understands BPD/NPD - as folks have said on here that is unlikely.  So part of what I'm struggling with is....do I just stay back as long as she doesn't contact me.  And work out what to do if she does.

Then the thought of Christmas comes up.  In the past I have been low contact with her at this time of the year and when I sent her a card she immediately saw that as a sign that everything is now fine and dandy and called me (no apology, just an excuse how it was the NH's fault that she screamed at me that time) and I just let it go and we carried on as 'normal'.

I'm not ready to do that this time - so I wondered....any thoughts....should I not send her a card and stay total No Contact....send her a card which is just basically greetings but not respond to anything further from her until I'm ready.  Or could I send her a card with a message that says something like:  Happy Christmas.  I found our last call upsetting and know we won't agree on what happened there.  But I feel like I need time to deal with my own issues and I'm not sure how long that will take but I will be in touch when I feel ready.   

I know when my mom has gotten upset and attacked me and I don't contact her, I start to feel guilty. My mom expects to be pursued and for me to chase her. If I don't, she doesn't believe I love her. To her, that is how I prove love...especially since she is elderly.  It plays on my emotions and I can't stand thinking she feels unloved.   Will your mother understand why you aren't sending a card? I don't think she's going to get it and don't think she's going to apologize.  I'm definitely no expert on this though.  I don't think including a note with the card is the best way to say "Happy Christmas".  Maybe you send a card, and if she calls you, don't answer but text a response that you are hurt by what happened and need time to deal with your issues before having contact with her but hope she has a good Christmas. 

[Teach21]

Also because anything in writing she collects and this would be "evidence" of the "horrible card" I sent her.

She may think things are fine and dandy and call- you can decide to speak to her or not. I am LC with my mother - not in whether or not we speak but in the content of what we talk about. I don't share personal information, and avoid being emotional as much as possible. I try to stick to general topics and events that are not private.

Your response is so good! 

My mom collects anything in writing too and uses as evidence. She photocopied cards and letters from many years ago and still has them! This is amazing to hear from someone else!

How do you manage to not discuss anything personal?  My mom would go crazy.

[Notwendy]

I think my mother can sense that I am not sharing personal information. She doesn't like that but I don't want to share.

There's some "personal" that isn't really that personal.If it's not very personal and other people know about it, she can know as well.

Also, if there is something to say to her family, we are careful to tell her first. If someone says something to her that she doesn't know about, she gets upset. So we do share some thing but not my personal feelings. I also don't share personal information about my adult kids. It's up to them to decide what to tell her. One of mine won't answer her texts either.

[Flannelflower]

I would not sent a card with any message like that. I would also not expect an apology- what I have noticed is that- pwBPD don't apologize- because if someone sees their situation from victim perspective- they don't feel responsible for their behavior. An apology requires being accountable but if they are to be accountable. this also causes a feeling of shame for someone with BPD and that is a difficult emotion for them.

The Karman triangle dynamics helped me to understand this. If you say something like "you have hurt my feelings" that is from victim perspective. You may feel correct and want understanding but something like this would be perceived by my BPD mother as a criticism and likely she'd be indignant. Also because anything in writing she collects and this would be "evidence" of the "horrible card" I sent her.

A counselor helped me to decide how to react and her idea is to be non reactive- stay in the middle. If what I usually do is send a card, then do the same- as not sending one or sending something more is being reactive. Whatever you do- send if from your feeling "centered" out of your own values. How she perceives this is not something you can control. The decision is for you. If you feel uncomfortable sending one- don't send it. If you choose no contact, this means none at all. If you are low contact- and you feel uncomfortable not sending a card- send one but keep it neutral.

"Happy Christmas" seems neutral to me. We say it to people we hardly know- it doesn't imply anything beyond a greeting. Do not send anything emotional. IMHO this is reactive and it will likely escalate the situation.

She may think things are fine and dandy and call- you can decide to speak to her or not. I am LC with my mother - not in whether or not we speak but in the content of what we talk about. I don't share personal information, and avoid being emotional as much as possible. I try to stick to general topics and events that are not private.

Her calling you as if things are OK is what I call the "dry erase board apology". There is no point in going over what happened. Once my mother is over whatever she is angry about - it's as if it didn't happen. It's frustrating on your part as what you would wish to do is to talk it out and get to a place of understanding. This does not work with my BPD mother.

Thank you NotWendy.  I agree with everything you said:

I will not get an apology,  I will never be able to resolve it with her.  Yes, it's frustrating but part of what I need to come to terms with.

I had a great talk with my brother's wife on a walk today.  And after everyone's amazing input on here and talking with her I think I have come up with a plan:

1.  Send her a Christmas card.  Basically Christmas greetings and with a PS - 'I'll be in touch in the new year'.  Basic fact.  Not explaining why I'm doing what I'm doing.  But also she has did yell & hang up on me and has felt the consequences of that over the 3 months of no contact. 

2.  That continues my break for a bit longer to keep working on myself. 

3.  Call her in the new year.  Hi, just checking in to see how you're going.

And then basically decide the balance between managing my guilt  with what I can do that is manageable for my mental health in terms of contact.  I'm thinking I won't answer her calls.  (Her calls are a big trigger for me).  Get my husband to listen to any voicemails so he can let me know if there is anything I really need to deal with.  And I'll call her when I feel able to and visit her at a level I can cope with (which may need to be adjusted up or down depending how it goes).

And in the working on myself keep doing my own work of grieving the past wounds and current 'relationship', not expecting her to change AT ALL, practicing your idea of Low Contact in terms of our interactions being surface.  And accepting she won't like that but it is about what I need to do for me now not trying to make her happy.

Remembering she is in a Nursing Home and would be attending to if there was anything really wrong with her health.

[Flannelflower]

I would feel comfortable doing that because I have asked them enough over the years. My mom wants every detail of every conversation.She wants to know what I said and what they said.  She says if I don't answer her questions, she will cut off contact with me. I actually called her bluff the last time she said that and told her that was her choice.  We mostly only text with each other due to where she is located and that every phone call ends with her mad at me. I'm filled with anxiety when communicating with her.  Her life is constant hell, she vents to me, and then tells me I'm not supportive enough, I'm cold, indifferent, unloving when I try so hard to be empathetic. I feel guilty and sad for her because of her age, poor health, emotional and physical pain, and that she is alone. I feel like it's my duty to be there for her.  She's threatened to commit suicide my whole life, and it's awful, but sometimes I just wish it would be over. I only went to counseling for a little bit because I cannot afford it but need to go again and also really learn how to set and keep boundaries.

That is a really tough place to be Teach21.  You are so kind to your mum and empathise with her pain and feel sad for her yet she attacks you and threatens you.  My mum has threatened suicide my whole life too.  I have very early memories of being traumatised by her threatening that to.my dad in front of me when I was just a kid.  I don't think she was ever serious as she never made attempts, but it used to control my dad his whole life. 
I understand sometimes it all gets too much and it's normal to wish the pain to stop...for you and for them.  One day it will I guess and we will grieve the mother we never had and the sad life that they lived. 
Boundaries are really important but hard to do.  I've seen some great online videos.  I like Karla Downing from Change My Relationship.  She has a good Facebook with daily things I find helpful.  Also a guy called Jerry Wise who has videos I've found helpful.  Not sure if you've found anything helpful online.  It's hard when you can't afford therapy, which is expensive.  I'm coming to the end of what I can afford and am a bit anxious about not having that support