Do I stay or do I go?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello family,

A rough weekend.  I've recently been posting that I've been feeling more optimistic about my relationship.  I've been learning skills through this forum/website and from some wonderful books.  And they have been working.  Rages don't repeat for days on end with threats of leaving.  I'm finding more time where we connect and deepen our relationship.  I've accepted that she has a condition that will sometimes cause her to behave badly.  It's been mostly manageable.  But after this weekend I'm feeling pretty abused.

We got home from a short trip away as a family.  When I pulled up I could see that we had left the garage door open the whole time!  In that instant part of my brain said to not mention it and play it cool.  Instead I relayed that information to my partner and she lost it.  How could I do something so boneheaded.  We all got out and started unpacking.  She called me in the house to talk.  I came in through the garage that leads to the kitchen.  As I stepped in the door and moved farther into the kitchen she started screaming at me an pushing me back toward the door forcefully.  She screamed "what would you have done if we had been robbed?"  I replied I'd call the insurance company.  She took that to mean that I wasn't taking the situation seriously.  In hindsight I see that I should have responded to her emotions instead of with a rational answer.  I also said that "we" left the garage door open.  She replied "how dare you blame me!"  It could have been either one of us that left the door open but it was likely me.  Regardless, we are both responsible for the house.

I decided that I was overwhelmed and needed to step away.  I made up some errands that I needed to take care of and left the house.  She told me to drop something off at a friend's house on the way and to take his key since he was gone.  I drove to the friend's place and started unlocking his front door.  The cars were all snowy and it looked like maybe they were gone.  Guess again.  As I'm opening the door I feel someone push hard against it and yell "get away from the door!"  I backed up and told him who I was.  We both apologized over and over.  I dropped off the item and he gave me some Thanksgiving desserts.  I then ran my "errands" and sat in the car for a bit.  I didn't want to go home.  But I finally did.

When I got there we talked about what happened.  She said "I suppose you are feeling like you are the victim.  I had to push you into the corner so you didn't use your superior strength to push past me and walk away!"  Later she mentioned that she and her friend were texting about what happened at his house.  She said her friend texted "what don't they knock where he grew up...ha ha ha".  I told her that she said he wasn't home.  She denied she said that at all.  I texted the friend and apologized again.  I mentioned the comment she said.  He replied that she was actually the one who made that comment.  So she's lying and gaslighting me.

I kept working on unpacking from the trip.  As I walked downstairs her son laughed and said "mom is very disappointed in the example you are setting for me!"

I about left right there.

I realize that there are things I could have done to avoid this situation.  I could also have reacted differently to her outburst.  I did accept later that it was I who left the door open and how terrible that was to do.  So things calmed back down pretty quickly.  I've been sick with COVID so stumbled off to my bedroom to avoid my family the rest of the day.  I needed a break.

Now I'm left thinking about what happened.  She is abusing me, and so is her son to a degree.  I'm getting better with my skills but her behavior is unacceptable.  When I've approached her about how she treats me in the past she quickly puts it back on me.  I've never really had success getting her to try to change her behavior.  I know I've been getting better handling verbal exchanges but physical is a whole different level.  She didn't hurt me at all and likely couldn't.  That's not the point.  Her treatment of me is abuse.

I'm considering giving her an ultimatum.  After her son goes back to his father's later this week I could sit down with her and tell her that the pushing is unacceptable.  That I need to hear her be accountable and apologize for what she did.  Also, we need to start seeing a couples therapist.  If she responds with defensiveness I'll be packed up and already ready to leave the house.  I don't want to be treated like this anymore.

I'm not calling the cops.  I'm not reporting her to the state in any way.  I don't want to ruin her life over this.  But I don't want this treatment anymore.

It's super sad because she can and is so loving!  She took great care of me when I was sick with COVID.  Even yesterday she was super sweet and saying she missed me from being in quarantine.  She want's to go out to a nice dinner and relax when her son is away.

I'd like to talk to her about this but feel like I'd have to be very careful about what I say otherwise she'll just blow up again and I'll have to leave.  I honestly don't know what to do.  I'll be talking with my therapist shortly about all of this, hoping to gain some insight.

[usagi]

Hello family,

A rough weekend.  I've recently been posting that I've been feeling more optimistic about my relationship.  I've been learning skills through this forum/website and from some wonderful books.  And they have been working.  Rages don't repeat for days on end with threats of leaving.  I'm finding more time where we connect and deepen our relationship.  I've accepted that she has a condition that will sometimes cause her to behave badly.  It's been mostly manageable.  But after this weekend I'm feeling pretty abused.

We got home from a short trip away as a family.  When I pulled up I could see that we had left the garage door open the whole time!  In that instant part of my brain said to not mention it and play it cool.  Instead I relayed that information to my partner and she lost it.  How could I do something so boneheaded.  We all got out and started unpacking.  She called me in the house to talk.  I came in through the garage that leads to the kitchen.  As I stepped in the door and moved farther into the kitchen she started screaming at me an pushing me back toward the door forcefully.  She screamed "what would you have done if we had been robbed?"  I replied I'd call the insurance company.  She took that to mean that I wasn't taking the situation seriously.  In hindsight I see that I should have responded to her emotions instead of with a rational answer.  I also said that "we" left the garage door open.  She replied "how dare you blame me!"  It could have been either one of us that left the door open but it was likely me.  Regardless, we are both responsible for the house.

I decided that I was overwhelmed and needed to step away.  I made up some errands that I needed to take care of and left the house.  She told me to drop something off at a friend's house on the way and to take his key since he was gone.  I drove to the friend's place and started unlocking his front door.  The cars were all snowy and it looked like maybe they were gone.  Guess again.  As I'm opening the door I feel someone push hard against it and yell "get away from the door!"  I backed up and told him who I was.  We both apologized over and over.  I dropped off the item and he gave me some Thanksgiving desserts.  I then ran my "errands" and sat in the car for a bit.  I didn't want to go home.  But I finally did.

When I got there we talked about what happened.  She said "I suppose you are feeling like you are the victim.  I had to push you into the corner so you didn't use your superior strength to push past me and walk away!"  Later she mentioned that she and her friend were texting about what happened at his house.  She said her friend texted "what don't they knock where he grew up...ha ha ha".  I told her that she said he wasn't home.  She denied she said that at all.  I texted the friend and apologized again.  I mentioned the comment she said.  He replied that she was actually the one who made that comment.  So she's lying and gaslighting me.

I kept working on unpacking from the trip.  As I walked downstairs her son laughed and said "mom is very disappointed in the example you are setting for me!"

I about left right there.

I realize that there are things I could have done to avoid this situation.  I could also have reacted differently to her outburst.  I did accept later that it was I who left the door open and how terrible that was to do.  So things calmed back down pretty quickly.  I've been sick with COVID so stumbled off to my bedroom to avoid my family the rest of the day.  I needed a break.

Now I'm left thinking about what happened.  She is abusing me, and so is her son to a degree.  I'm getting better with my skills but her behavior is unacceptable.  When I've approached her about how she treats me in the past she quickly puts it back on me.  I've never really had success getting her to try to change her behavior.  I know I've been getting better handling verbal exchanges but physical is a whole different level.  She didn't hurt me at all and likely couldn't.  That's not the point.  Her treatment of me is abuse.

I'm considering giving her an ultimatum.  After her son goes back to his father's later this week I could sit down with her and tell her that the pushing is unacceptable.  That I need to hear her be accountable and apologize for what she did.  Also, we need to start seeing a couples therapist.  If she responds with defensiveness I'll be packed up and already ready to leave the house.  I don't want to be treated like this anymore.

I'm not calling the cops.  I'm not reporting her to the state in any way.  I don't want to ruin her life over this.  But I don't want this treatment anymore.

It's super sad because she can and is so loving!  She took great care of me when I was sick with COVID.  Even yesterday she was super sweet and saying she missed me from being in quarantine.  She want's to go out to a nice dinner and relax when her son is away.

I'd like to talk to her about this but feel like I'd have to be very careful about what I say otherwise she'll just blow up again and I'll have to leave.  I honestly don't know what to do.  I'll be talking with my therapist shortly about all of this, hoping to gain some insight.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Pook075]

Hey Usagi, so sorry you had a lousy weekend.

I can't give you advice on whether to stay or go because I'm not you and I'm not in your situation.  We all have our limits and each relationship is unique.  Many times, they're not fair and you have to be the one to forgive.

If you stay, there will be more "garage door" types of incidents in the future.  There will also be fantastic loving memories.  Does the good outweigh the bad?  It really does come down to your compassion and empathy, can you continue to forgive to have a mostly good relationship?

There's no right or wrong answer here, it really comes down to what you feel in your heart.  There will be regrets no matter what you decide, so take some time with this.  I wish you luck!

[usagi]

I really don't want to go.  It was just everything all at once.  My step-son even made me breakfast this morning.  I see both of them being sweet to me but am struggling navigating the unwanted behavior sometimes.

I've been having a hard time when she starts screaming.  Lately I've been just saying that I don't want to argue and walking away.  I think that's what prompted this latest response.

I guess I need to just take it and let her get it out?

[SaltyDawg]

usagi,

I hear you that you are very upset about your interaction with your wife after a bit of progress.

There will be setbacks, and going back to ground zero, after a lot of progress is made, can be very unsettling and upsetting to say the least.  As therapists often say, "This too shall pass..."

Continue to speak to her emotions, and not so much the facts while she is emotionally activated (triggered).

Do set firm boundaries on abuse (including the physical shoving) that it will not be tolerated while she is baseline.  If something similar were to happen to me, I would tell my wife "I understand you are very upset about this and this is very frustrating for you.  I would really love to talk about this without yelling, I would like to take a timeout until I can think more clearly, and when I am more calm we can talk about it at (give a time that you know she typically recovers to baseline, for my wife it is 'tomorrow morning'), and let me know when you are ready at that time"  I wouldn't validate leaving the garage door open (unless you knew it was you, then own it).  Also, let her know that being physical is not appropriate.  My couple's T told me to call 911 if she ever hit me again, shoving gently is a bit in the gray area, but open/closed hand hitting is not appropriate.  Consider recording these interactions if they become worse.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[HurtAndTired]

Usagi,

I am so sorry to hear that things have not been going well lately. While you may well have left the garage door open, you are human and we all make mistakes. It is understandable that she would be upset with you for making a mistake, but her level of upset was disproportionate to the level of the offense. This is not how normal people react to minor mistakes. Getting disproportionately angry over minor (or imagined) offenses is classic BPD. These behaviors do not improve over time, they get worse unless you place a hard boundary on them.

That brings me to my next point. My wife started getting physical by pushing me. I also didn't think at the time that she could physically hurt me as she is 5'3" and I am 5'10", but like most BPD behaviors when unchecked, over time, it got worse. Over the years she escalated to slapping, kicking, biting, punching, scratching, spitting, hair-pulling (to the point of pulling hair out of my head in clumps), throwing heavy objects at my head, and breaking a glass picture frame on my head. I have no doubt whatsoever at this point that she is fully capable of putting me in the hospital or killing me when she is in the grip of a rage. This is why I had to place a hard boundary on physical abuse (and yes, pushing counts). I told her that if she ever laid a hand on me in anger again I would call the police. In September she got very mad over a very minor thing (being home a few minutes late) and started throwing things at my head. She pushed me and I told her that I was calling the police (non-emergency line). She dared me to and I did.

She could not believe that I had done it. I told them that she had not hit me, but that she was throwing things and was extremely agitated and that I wanted them to send someone out before she escalated to violence. I went out and waited for the police to arrive and then told them that my wife was uBPD and that this was not the first time that she had gotten physical but that it was the first time that I had called for their help. They asked if she had hit me and I told them no (they would have had to arrest her if she had) and that I wanted them to get there before they had to arrest her for assault. They appreciated that and talked her down until she was ready to lock herself in the master bedroom for the night. I locked myself in the guest room and then endured nearly a month of splitting and silent treatment until she came out of it like nothing had happened.

Since then she has not dared to get physical with me because she knows what will happen if she does. She has even been less verbally aggressive since then. She is a little afraid of what I will do. This is good because it means that she is regaining her impulse control. She can control her violent impulses with others, but over time I have signaled to her that it is ok to abuse me. When I allowed her to push me without doing anything, I told her that was ok. All the way through breaking the glass picture frame over my head with no consequences told her that it was ok to treat me that way. No matter how angry we get at the person who cuts us off in traffic, we do not chase them down and beat them up because we are afraid of the consequences (like being arrested and having a criminal record). In the same way, my wife has to be afraid of the consequences of being violent with me.

In many ways, your situation mirrors mine in the first years of my relationship. I was dating a single uBPD mom with a son about the same age. Her symptoms were annoying but not terrible. We talked about moving in together and buying a house. We got married and did just that. Her symptoms got worse, and worse, and worse. If I could go back in time, I would give myself the same advice I am giving you now. Assume that she will get worse and will not get better on her own. Do what you can to protect yourself and the boy. Lay down hard boundaries and consistently and strictly enforce them. If you compromise on your boundaries, she will erode them until they are meaningless. No compromise you make to appease her will do anything but weaken your boundaries.

I have started to reclaim my life and feel hope for the first time in years, but I really wish for you to never let things get as bad as I let them get for me. Please immediately draw some of those lines in the sand that took me far too long to draw, make it clear what the consequences will be if those lines are crossed, and then consistently follow through with the consequences. Physical violence always escalates unless you do something to stop it. It is unhealthy for everyone in the house, but especially unhealthy for the boy to be around. I will keep praying that your situation improves and that you and your family are ok.

HurtAndTired

[usagi]

Thanks everyone for the advice.  HurtAndTired, thank you for sharing your painful experience.  This is something that I am concerned about.  But in the past when I've confronted her about her behavior it's always turned back on me so I don't feel like I can have those conversations.

She said that she shoved me because she didn't want me to "run away".  This is something that I've done in the past when her raging gets me dysregulated.  I feel like I have my tools ready, empathetic listening and the like, when I'm in a good place but if I get too upset it becomes unavailable to me.  So staying in the fight so to speak might keep her from feeling like she needs to shove me.

The biggest complaint she has is that I am defensive.  I've heard this on the forum from others talking about their interactions with their BPD partners.  In my experience, sometimes I have actually done something that I should admit to but find it difficult when she's raging at me.  I get "defensive!"  Other times its some perceived slight on my part that I just disagree with outright regardless of my mental state.  How do others handle this argument?  Have you experienced being defensive and not owning up to a mistake under pressure?

[HurtAndTired]

Thanks everyone for the advice.  HurtAndTired, thank you for sharing your painful experience.  This is something that I am concerned about.  But in the past when I've confronted her about her behavior it's always turned back on me so I don't feel like I can have those conversations.

I understand your frustration about having this turned back on you, but it is not a conversation. It is a statement. Make it an "I" statement. Say something along the lines of "I do not believe in using physical violence to solve problems, ever. This includes pushing. If someone is physically violent with me, I will always call the police to report it." Then drop it. You have made your statement and it is not up for discussion. Then follow through if she crosses that boundary.

pwBPD do not like boundaries and will push back. She will try to argue with you and turn it back around on you, as you have stated she has in the past. Do not get drawn into this. Do not JADE. Simply state your boundary and then enforce it. This is all explained in "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad. This book has been a lifesaver for me and helped me grow a backbone and stand up to my uBPD wife. The hard truth that I had to accept is that the abuse (verbal, mental, emotional, physical) that I had endured for years was just as much my fault as it was hers inasmuch as I had tacitly given her permission to treat me that way. Normal people do not tolerate abuse, they report it and/or get away from people who are abusive. Caretakers like you and I are not normal people and that is why we end up in partnerships with pwBPD, but we can learn how to stop caretaking and enabling dysfunctional behavior.

Physical violence, including pushing, will always get worse. Always.

[usagi]

Thanks HurtAndTired.  And I hear what you are saying.  This is about establishing firm boundaries.  I get that.  And I like the suggestion to use "I" statements.

I'll definitely check out the book you recommended.  I also need to keep working with my therapist on finding ways to express my boundaries that won't totally blow up my relationship.

I appreciate the perspective and advice.

I should know from past exchanges but are you still with your pwBPD?  Have you somehow managed to work things out?

[HurtAndTired]

I am still with my wife. Things have gotten much, much better since I have placed firm boundaries. They got worse before they got better though. This is to be expected when you place the boundaries. It is called an extinction burst, look it up on this site and you will get a much better explanation than I can give, but I'll give it a try.

Imagine there is a rat that is trained to push on a lever and receive a food pellet. If the researcher changes the experiment so that a food pellet is no longer dispensed when the lever is pressed, the rat will eventually stop pressing the lever. However, before it gives up and stops pressing the lever it will go through a period when it will furiously press the lever trying to get the system to "work right" again.

If you place a boundary, expect an extinction burst. This is extremely important. Do not attempt to do this unless you are ready to enforce it 100% of the time. Imagine the scenario above with the rat and the lever. When that rat is furiously pressing the lever, the worst thing that the researcher could do to eliminate the behavior is to have the lever pushing result in even one pellet. This is called intermittent reinforcement where a reward is delivered at irregular intervals and it is the most powerful form of reinforcement there is. This is how casinos set up their slot machines that keep people pulling the lever over and over. If you want a behavior to stop you must lay your boundary and never waiver in enforcing it, not even once.

Riding out an extinction burst is no walk in the park, and is not for the light-hearted. pwBPD will rage, act out, and generally do whatever they can to pressure you back into "behaving normally" (giving in). Two things finally pushed me to the point where I realized I had no choice though. The first is our two-year-old son. I could and would not let him grow up watching me be abused. The abuse had to stop. The second was the realization that all the years I had tried to manage my wife's BPD were a complete waste of effort.

Nothing I did or didn't do could stop her from becoming dysregulated. This is why we call it walking on eggshells, we (caretakers) think that by altering our behavior we can prevent our pwBPD from dysregulating. We cannot. We could be perfect and they would still dysregulate. I isolated myself from friends and family to pacify her. I gave in on nearly every decision to keep her happy. Happy wife/happy life was my philosophy, but nothing I did or avoided doing ever made her happy, and in the process, I started to lose myself. I was no longer the person I used to be. I had become a depressed, angry, and fearful person who got very little joy out of life and did nothing to care for myself.

The old adage of how you boil a frog by putting him in the pot and ever so slowly turning up the heat so that he doesn't notice until it is too late is fitting here. For most of us who are in a romantic relationship with a pwBPD, our relationships gradually got worse over time. Worsening so slowly that we are like the frog in the pot who doesn't realize it is boiling until it is too late. It starts with a snide remark here or there. Pushing. A fit over visiting a friend she doesn't like, and it just gets worse and worse. Your behaviors will also change gradually in response until you find yourself wondering how you let it get this far.

I have come to realize that the only way to have a stable long-term relationship with a pwBPD is to place and enforce firm boundaries. Your partner, like mine, has a serious mental illness and is not capable of leading in the relationship. You, as the "non" partner, have to establish these boundaries not only for yourself and your own sanity but for the wellbeing of your entire household. She is simply not capable of sharing leadership with you in an equal partnership. It was a hard realization for me, but necessary, to understand that my wife is on the same emotional level as my two-year-old and is often in a state of delusional thinking. I love her and will continue to fight for our relationship, but I have realistically had to abandon any hope that our marriage will ever be a "normal" one based on mutual trust and support. I am learning to love myself enough and get support by rebuilding my network of friends and family so that I can fill my own "emotional gas tank" with enough left over to continue to support and care for her without any hope of ever consistently having that support and care reciprocated.

[usagi]

Thanks HurtAndTired.  It sounds like you have really been through it.  Enforcing my boundaries is definitely the biggest hurdle for me.  I'll read through the book you suggested and refresh my familiarity with the resources on this site.

It seems to me that if you are enforcing a boundary it does need to be backed up somehow.  If the boundary is that you yourself aren't going to participate in some behavior that's one thing.  I've been able to do this effectively when she is raging and wanting an argument.  I calmly say that I won't argue with you and we can discuss this later.  It does usually make her more angry but ultimately works.  But for behaviors I want her to stop that's been more of a challenge for me.  I feel like I need to put up ultimatums in order to enforce those.  Like I need to be ready to end the relationship.  I've thought about that in the past but usually chicken out =).  Is that the only way to enforce those boundaries?  I'd rather not take it to that sort of extreme.

[HurtAndTired]

You are right that enforcing boundaries needs to be backed up. Different unacceptable behaviors require different consequences. For me, violence = police, suicide threat = calling mental health services, yelling and swearing = leaving with our son until she can calm down. The consequences are different for each unacceptable behavior but they are consistently applied each time the unacceptable behavior happens. This will cause extinction bursts, but over time the unacceptable behaviors will lessen and (hopefully) disappear. You mentioned ultimatums and possibly breaking off the relationship as a consequence. In my experience, ultimatums are not a good idea.

Instead of making ultimatums, I make "I" statements and follow through. The difference between an ultimatum and an "I" statement is subtle but important. An ultimatum says "unless you do/do not do ____, then I will _____." This is asking the pwBPD to change their behavior. An "I" statement is more like this, "When _____ happens, I will always ______." This is not asking the pwBPD to change their behavior, it is merely stating what you will do when something happens. You have to be fully prepared to do the thing that you say you will do for the "I" statements to work though.

As far as using the threat of leaving the relationship as a consequence for unacceptable behavior, this is not a good idea unless you are prepared to/want to leave the relationship. Since you are on the "bettering a relationship" board, I assume that you want to better your relationship and not end it. My uBPD wife has so frequently used divorce threats as a manner of control that they no longer have any effect on me. Not only is it not effective, it is a form of emotional abuse.

It would be helpful to know exactly what behaviors you are finding unacceptable so that we can help you with suggesting reasonable boundaries with logical and natural consequences (i.e. violence = police). What is your partner doing that you need her to stop doing to make your relationship better?

[SaltyDawg]

HurtAndTired makes excellent recommendations, I do essentially the same thing with one exception, that is regarding the divorce threats.

As far as using the threat of leaving the relationship as a consequence for unacceptable behavior, this is not a good idea unless you are prepared to/want to leave the relationship. Since you are on the "bettering a relationship" board, I assume that you want to better your relationship and not end it. My uBPD wife has so frequently used divorce threats as a manner of control that they no longer have any effect on me. Not only is it not effective, it is a form of emotional abuse.

My wife did the same thing, they were ineffective, but she still got an emotional response from me each and every time, until, I called her bluff on it a few times, and then they stopped altogether.

Calling a bluff on a divorce threat is not for the feint of heart - only do it if you have no other choice, or if you know that it is a bluff.  Fortunately for me, an ex couple's therapist, did the first bluff for me.  The T told my wife that I was planning on leaving her (I protested) but my wife was convinced, and she changed her tune from divorcing me to begging me not to leave her.  There were three more times where she was imagining me leaving her, and each time resulted in her begging me not to leave her. 

However, this did not stop her from making the threats, she shifted it to 'separation' after she promised the new couple's therapist she would no longer make divorce threats.  She worked with her own therapist to make a safety plan (this tipped me off she was planning something like this, so I knew it was coming, and it did two weeks later, as I know from DV research this is mandatory prior to leaving a high conflict relationship) as part of her extinction burst pushing back on all the new boundaries that I had imposed, many of which she perceived as abusive.

I knew her feelings were that she did not want to be with me; however, based on historical events in our relationship, I also knew with about > 75% certainty it would be a bluff.

Well, she chose to do the 'separation' in front of our couple's therapist.  I called her bluff in front of the therapist, after I quietly listened to her demands for me to leave the house and everything in it.  Well, I verbally refused to leave and indicated I wanted to stay; however, I did explain that I did not want her to leave either; however, if she felt so strongly to separate, I offered up an alternative for her to leave instead if she was so inclined (which essentially called her bluff, and moved her outside of her comfort zone, as she immediately realized that she was going to lose the stuff she had intended for me to lose).

Surprisingly, the couple's therapist, asked my wife what she thought of the 'counter proposal' for separation to which my wife had no answer at the time as she had not envisioned this response of mine.  As this was done near the end of our session, the conversation ended shortly after that question was posed.

My wife was quiet for the rest of the day, we went to an event together for one of our children, and my wife said it was her 'worst day ever' when she was asked how she was doing as she was not herself.  She felt physically ill, even though she had given me news of the separation earlier, I still got her a heating pad, and did the absolute minimum to take care of her that evening with about 10-15 minutes of care (previously she would have expected to be waited on hand and foot, non-stop and I would be at her beck and call and that still would not have been good enough).

Later on that evening I went to sleep, only to be woken up by a smiling wife who was kissing me awake (she hadn't smiled towards me in over 8 months, nor had she kissed me in over 13 months), who was once again putting me on a pedestal and being idolized by her, when only a few hours prior I was literally discarded in front of the therapist and was being painted black with a very severe devaluation.  Since I didn't specifically say I wanted her to leave, she did not make the same begging for me to stay as she previously did, but made several references to how well I took care of her last night when she wasn't feeling well and how much she appreciated that.  Needless to say, I immediately recognized the 2nd symptom, otherwise commonly known as the narcissistic abuse pattern.

A few days later, and I was still being painted white, we had our next couple's session.  My wife continued to describe me in a very positive light, how well I cared for her, and the look on the therapist's face was priceless, her jaw literally dropped as far as her mouth would allow.  Even with the T being an irrefutable first hand witness of the couple's therapist to an abuse pattern only present in a Cluster-B personality disorder, which completed without any doubt enough symptoms that she has seen 'in session' she still refused to make a diagnosis of BPD; however, the therapist now treated me as an equal, and many times leaned my way, instead of taking my wife's false narrative as seriously as she once did to the point of becoming my wife's 'flying monkey' and was taking it a lot more seriously with a lot more notes.  There was a definite shift in the couple therapy dynamic as well.

It was a very liberating experience for me, as well as a recognition that the balance of relationship power shifted from my wife to me.  Due to my wife's actions, I now know, if she makes another threat like this I am now about 95% certain it will be a bluff, and I will 'call it' every time.

Circling back to you.  If you want to consider calling her bluff, you might want to test this theory with a smaller action that would induce a similar response to her fear of abandonment.  If you haven't done a boys weekend out, or a guys night out, since you have been with her, do one with your friends, something that could possibly trigger her fear of abandonment, and observe her reaction to something less.  If you have done this, you could say you want to do a mini separation to clear your head, do a spa weekend or equivalent of your own to 'get away from it all, specifically her'.

If she freaks out (becomes irrational) and pleading for you not to go, it is likely a 'bluff'.  However, if she encourages you, and cannot wait to get you out of the house, with no contact the entire time you are gone, then it is likely not a bluff.  If she initially encourages you to go, but blows up your phone with dozens or even hundreds of texts, there is a reasonably good chance she is bluffing.  Learn to recognize the tell tale signs of abusive control, and respond accordingly.

There is no manual on this; however, I have figured it out with observation of my wife, and exgf.

Calling her bluff, is similar to calling a bluff in poker.  You really don't know what is going to happen until you do it.  However, you can observe the other player's betting strategies, learn the 'tells' and then you can call the bluff.  Most of the time it can be successful; however, other times you can get burned.  It is a calculated risk to do this.  Make sure you can tolerate that risk before trying this suggestion.  If it pays off, it is well worth the risk (in my case it was), if it doesn't it can be devastating.  Use the wise mind tool (top of the tool menu on this page) before actually doing this if you are considering it.

If you have more questions, please ask.

Take care with self-care.

[usagi]

Thanks for all the advice, all.  I really appreciate it.

HurtAndTired, defining my boundaries is actually something that I've been working on.  My therapist once commented that it seemed like I didn't have many boundaries.  Physical aggression is definitely one of them.  I would say also the sort of full on rage screaming isn't OK, nor the way out of bounds insults.  Example, I'm giving our dog a pill and struggling a little.  She tells me to stop and that she'll take care of it then says "men are useless".  Then watched her struggle until she got the dog to swallow the pill.  I don't like it when she treats me like one of her children when her son is around.  It REALLY complicates my parenting.

I am pretty sure she'll never leave me on her own.  Every time she's threatened she's softened, apologized, and says she needs me.

[HurtAndTired]

Thank you for giving me the specifics Usagi. This really helps and it also cements that our situations are very similar. My wife also uses the "men are ____" statement a lot. This was an early red flag for me and it used to really bother me. I would try to point out the logical fallacy of such a broad statement. For example, she would say "all men are cheating liars" and knowing how much she loved and respected her late father and her teenage son I would say "if all men are truly awful, then you saying your father and your son are also awful." This logic would just bounce off of her and she would look puzzled as if she didn't understand what I was saying while also looking annoyed and would continue as if I hadn't spoken. I didn't know about BPD at the time and that feelings = facts, but I did suspect that she was deeply damaged and that her hatred of men was pathological. I subconsciously knew it was a matter of time until she turned that hatred toward me, and boy was I right.

My wife's mother was physically abusive and abandoned her husband and kids in her native Mexico and ran away to the US when my wife was about 6 years old (my mother-in-law is also uBPD). My wife's father then died when she was only about 12. She lived with her grandparents for two years, and then my mother-in-law returned to Mexico to reclaim my wife and her siblings and brought them to the US where she had remarried and had a baby. My wife's stepfather then sexually abused her and her younger sisters for several years before he was caught and sent to prison. To escape her abusive uBPD mother and the memories of the abuse from her stepfather, my wife eloped with a uNPD at 18 and left the state. That marriage was abusive and ended after 3 years and produced my stepson.

I understand why my wife would have a problem with men in general after what she went through, but her inability to see that there are also good men (examples: her dad, her son) to the point where she just could not process it is indicative of splitting/black-white thinking. I now understand this, but didn't get it at the time. This splitting got worse and worse throughout our relationship and eventually morphed into her full-on splitting on and abusing me. There were so many times along the way when I knew that what she was doing to me was wrong, but I didn't know how to stop her, and I couldn't bring myself to leave after all that I had invested in the relationship. Like you, I had a really hard time establishing strong boundaries. I had never really had to do it before because no one had ever pushed past the weak boundaries that had worked for me all my life.

I share this because I want you to understand that my lack of strong boundaries is what led to me being treated increasingly worse. I worry that without establishing these same types of boundaries you will end up in a similar situation to what I did.

My recommendation is that you start with physical abuse. Let's call it what it is. Pushing in anger is physical abuse and it will get worse. Imagine what would happen if you got angry and pushed someone else. The consequences range from being fired, to being arrested, to being assaulted depending on who you pushed. My point is that you would never do such a thing because you respect others' boundaries, have control over your impulses, and fear the consequences. However, pwBPD are not good at respecting boundaries nor do they have much impulse control. They are emotionally stunted at the toddler stage and their brains are functionally different than a "non." Their prefrontal cortex which regulates thoughts, actions, and emotions is underactive, while their limbic system which controls primitive/survival behavioral and emotional responses is overactive. This makes feeling = fact and explains why it is so hard for them to control impulses.

Start with an "I statement" about physical abuse. You could say something like "I have been giving it a lot of thought and I think that touching another person in anger is deeply wrong. I have decided that if anyone ever lays a hand on me in anger I am going to call the police." Then refuse to engage in any type of argument over your "I statement." Do not JADE. If she asks you why you are saying this, you can simply state. It's just something that I have been thinking about a lot and wanted to share how I feel about this. You can tell her that it is a core value of yours and ask her to share what her core values are about physical violence. Then just listen. I'll bet that her core values involve anyone getting physical with her to be deeply wrong as well. Do not let it turn into an argument. Shift the conversation to another subject but be ready to follow through if she tests this boundary. My wife only tested it once and I am pretty sure that was enough for her to know I was serious and never test it again.

Once the physical violence is off the table, it sounds like verbal/emotional abuse is the second most problematic behavior. This one is trickier than the physical violence one and will require more patience. Having the cops show up at your door is enough to scare most people straight pretty fast. Nothing equivalent exists for the verbal abuse though. The best I can suggest is that you do another "I statement." Something along the lines of "I understand why people get angry and sometimes yell or say inappropriate things in the heat of the moment, but there are limits to what any reasonable person should put up with. I have decided that if anyone continues to yell at or insult me after I have asked them to stop, then I will walk away from that person until they can cool off and respectfully talk to me."

For me that entails taking myself (and if applicable, our child) out of the room and into a "safe room" (our guest bedroom and his nursery both have doors with locks), and we either watch tv or play until my wife has calmed down. This usually takes a few hours and sometimes can be overnight. Where the physical violence boundary was set with one iteration, followed by weeks of silent treatment as an extinction burst, the verbal abuse boundary is working more gradually. She still occasionally yells and name calls, but it is mostly if she has had a few drinks (which makes it easier for her to get dysregulated). I follow through with removing myself from the situation and do not JADE in response every time though. Since the verbal abuse is not providing the argument she craves, she has mostly resorted to making snide remarks to express her displeasure. My next target is getting the silent treatment under control. It's a process.

These are just suggestions based on what has worked for me. I encourage you to read "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life" cover to cover and let that be your guide to how to create your boundaries and make the process work for you. Everything I have learned about how to make boundaries work came from that book. It will change your life. Please keep checking in with us and let us know how you are doing. Know that we care and that you are not alone. We are all cheering for you and know you can do this.

HurtAndTired

[usagi]

Thanks again HurtAndTired.  This is great advice.  It sounds like you have gone through some very intense interactions with your wife.  I will definitely read the book you suggested.

I'll be seeing my therapist this Thursday and want to talk with her more about boundary setting.  This is something that, as you point out, I've not done much in the past and need practice at.  Just starting to talk about what my boundaries are makes me feel a sense of ownership and gives me hope that I can make things better.

This whole thread has been very helpful!

Thanks

[SaltyDawg]

Thanks again HurtAndTired.  This is great advice.  It sounds like you have gone through some very intense interactions with your wife.  I will definitely read the book you suggested.

I'll be seeing my therapist this Thursday and want to talk with her more about boundary setting.  This is something that, as you point out, I've not done much in the past and need practice at.  Just starting to talk about what my boundaries are makes me feel a sense of ownership and gives me hope that I can make things better.

Setting boundaries.  I am speaking from personal experience with my wife.

Pick one boundary to make and enforce at a time, if you pick too many to do at once, it will overwhelm them.  Reward good behavior by validating their good behaviors.  Borderlines exist to be validated.

Make a list, and prioritize them with the one you hate the most, and start with that, usually something fairly easy to enforce, Suicide threats/attempts/gestures and Physical Violence were the first two I addressed with my wife each one would now receive a 911 call from me to get her into a psych eval which she wanted to avoid at all cost.

I found initially it works, then they get pissed they have a limit, then they test the boundary with an extinction burst, before agreeing to it. 

Whatever boundary you set, you must be unwavering in your will to enforce it.  If you let them get away with violating your boundary once, they will continue to test your resolve in maintaining it.

Rinse and repeat, this is a process, I am now one year into doing this, and I am about 1/3 to 1/2 way to setting all the boundaries I would like to be set, it is getting more difficult, as she is not as self-aware of the more subtle bad behaviors she is doing.

All of my boundaries are themed around one statement "all abuse must stop" started with physical abuses, now I am addressing gaslighting in the past few weeks, as she is unaware she is doing them, and I am getting pushback from the couple's therapist as I am not addressing my wife's feelings enough.

If you have questions, ask.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[usagi]

With the help of my therapist and this forum my relationship with my partner is much improved!  Thank you again so much.  I see that all is not lost but that hard work lies ahead, and that's OK.  I'm not afraid of hard work.

Best to all,
usagi