new member, considering my options with uBPDw

[SaltyDawg]

I actually moved the first things to a rental storage unit for safekeeping just today. She has destroyed a lot of stuff in the past, like scissoring most of my clothes a couple of times (which is annoying and expensive, but just stuff, I feel) and shredding my photos (which is not just stuff - some of those memories are gone for good now). It's been a few years since the last incidence, but I feel a lot more at peace with some items with sentimental value now out of danger for sure.

If you still have the shredded photos, you can reassemble them with this software (intended for documents) https://www.unshredder.com/ - not cheap, as it is intended for law enforcement & PI's.

[Versant]

I used to be this way; however, I recognized my character flaws much like you have done.  I am here to tell you, that you can work through those character flaws with an qualified, and personally vetted individual therapist - well worth the investment into myself.

Yeah, if there's something good that has come from such a challenging (hellish) relationship, it's that it's made me look real hard at myself. So yeah, I have some issues to work on, and that work will definitely benefit me and those around me. It's just that that work would probably go a lot better in a context of a healthy relationship, or at least in the absence of a really unhealthy one.

I thought at the very least I had some time to make plans and gather my strength before taking any action. Also I thought I might try to ease into things, try setting some minor boundaries and work my way up from there. Turns out that's not really an option.

Why is this not an option?  Do take your time to make plans (in secret), do muster the strength to do it.  When you do execute, make sure you have a good exit plan in place, as you and your child will be at the greatest danger when you execute this plan.

I think there's going to be some sort of ultimate conflict that ends the relationship as it currently is before long now. Too many things that might force me to take a stand soon. So yeah, I'll plan for sure, and make preparations as much as I can, but I think in the end I won't be picking my moment but have it forced upon me.

Like others have said, I would not advise this at this time of having a 2nd child, you yourself have said the answer - you know what must be done.  Being mindful you will be doubling the difficulty.  I am going to be blunt, what do you want with regards to having a 2nd child with her, knowing that her behaviors will be just as bad if not worse?  Also, what do you want with regards to divorcing her?

It feels tragic that here we are, two people who both really do want a second child, and I can't let us go through with it anyway. What I really want is for her to be such, our relationship to be such that we can go on, have a child and live happily. But it is what it is, tragic or not, and me wishing otherwise doesn't change the facts. I know it would be total madness to try for a child when our situation is  like this.
I do want to divorce her. There, I said it. :/ But now how to get that to happen in a way that I can live with

Regarding your first point, my exbpd gf towards the end of the relationship developed a delusional hate towards my family members. As you say, she was convinced they were bad mouthing her, or telling me she was not good enough for me, etc. She would complain that my brother didn’t sent her a birthday message (they literally only met once) and then complain that my mother’s message was too “cold”. Another time she was raging because at a family meeting, she was expecting everybody to roll the red carpet for her and treat her like royalty.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. This sounds kind of familiar, even if it's not exactly the same. Also, things have gotten worse now that my relatives actually do have reservations towards her where my wife imagined them before...

About deciding what would be best for your son: staying with your wife or getting a divorce, I recommend reading the book Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent by Fjelstad and McBride. It goes in to the pros and cons of staying (so you can be there all the time to try to protect the kid from the disordered parent) vs. leaving (so your home can be a safe haven from the disordered parent while the kid is with you). It's a decision I'm also struggling with.

That book also has a lot of other great advice regardless of what you decide (since if you do get divorced, you'll still have to co-parent with this person).

This seems relevant - thanks for the book recommendation.

When it comes to having a second child, I had a similar dilemma, but with a slightly different twist.

Thank you for sharing. What difficult decisions we face in life!

Also, having another child (restarting a pregnancy, baby, toddler, preschooler, etc) could cause you to dither and delay a divorce or a decision to divorce until much later. 

This is it, I think.

[Versant]

In addition to MOSAIC, another resource that might be helpful is Shari Manning's Loving Someone with BPD. There's a chapter in the book on how to respond to suicidal ideation when someone has BPD. Handling it is not intuitive and must be learned.

Can I get some pointers for this? Is there somewhere I can read about this without access to the book?

[kells76]

Hi Versant;

Take a look at our workshop on Suicide ideation in others -- let us know what you think. It should generally track with any info in the Manning book.

Definitely take a look at this part of the thread, too, which describes approaches beyond calling 911 that may help:

Getting someone to professional help is important and there are many ways to do that.  Suicides tend to occur impulsively so how you deal with the immediate situation is important.  911 is one way, but there are other less dramatic ways, too.

1) Trying to get the person on a local Hotline number would be my first line of attack.  A local Crisis Hotline (not the National organizations) will have the ability to remotely trigger the police or ambulance while on the call.  These volunteers are trained to assess the situation and will dispatch if they think there is danger.  Most of the time, they will recommend an ER that sees suicidal ideation.

2) Another option is to call the Hotline and get the information and drive the person to the ER or have someone else drive them like a friend.

3) If either if 1-2 fail, if someone else is potentially in danger, or the situation includes a plan and a means, call 911.  It's pricey and dramatic - but at times, most prudent.

If you can't be there, getting someone else to be with the distressed person is important - a family member, friend, neighbor.  Making the ideation visible to others helps too - it brings focus, aid, accountability, and other resources to help out.

Not all suicidal ideation is equal and we need to make some judgments.  We often know the person intimately and while we what to be very conservative, we can't pretend that all suicidal ideation should be treated with a one size fits all response. We won't follow that when the time comes - so its better to think practically - know how to triage.  

I would never ignore, taunt a personal, or do anything to increase the crisis. This may mean getting manipulated a bit in the moment, but when the crisis clears, you lay the ground rules for handling the next crisis. For example, you could say that you are very concerned and encourage that next time that the person needs to call X for support, or that if they don't go to the ER, you may need to call 911 to be safe.   Making the ideation visible to others helps too - it brings focus and other resources to help.

And lastly, I also might suggest making a plan in times of calm so that you will know what to do when it happens - these can be highly emotionally charged events and it hard to think clearly in those situations. Learn your options and tipping points in times of calm so that you will be ready in times of crisis.

I'd add to that: stay away from telling or "reminding" the person things like "you have so much to live for" or "yeah, but things will get better", as that type of statement can be experienced as invalidating and can increase distress.

...

Are things escalating?

[SaltyDawg]

In addition to MOSAIC, another resource that might be helpful is Shari Manning's Loving Someone with BPD. There's a chapter in the book on how to respond to suicidal ideation when someone has BPD.

Can I get some pointers for this? Is there somewhere I can read about this without access to the book?

A lot of the books, including "Loving Someone with BPD" are also available on 'Hoopla' https://www.hoopladigital.com/ if your local public library uses this book app.  I find a book title I want to read/listen to I can often find it there.

[Versant]

A lot of the books, including "Loving Someone with BPD" are also available on 'Hoopla' https://www.hoopladigital.com/ if your local public library uses this book app.  I find a book title I want to read/listen to I can often find it there.

I'm not actually based in the US, and it limits my access to literature quite a bit. I can feasibly order only so many books from Amazon.

Take a look at our workshop on Suicide ideation in others -- let us know what you think. It should generally track with any info in the Manning book.

Thanks, this was good. Not that it really gave me clarity, though. There were posts emphasizing choosing the helpful approach, and those were thought provoking. I think it's understandable that being emotionally exhausted all the time there's a strong desire for clear cut solutions that have no gray areas or need for judgement, along the lines of "if she says X, then you just absolutely need to do Y", but I realize the responsibility for using personal judgement never goes away.

So yeah, I can't ignore her talk of suicide and the desperation underneath it. She definitely needs some help. It's just hard to figure out the most constructive way available to get that to happen.

This has me thinking:

It's my personal opinion that if someone is in the mood to rage, they will find something to rage about regardless of any attempts to de-escalate the situation.  If there's a contentious relationship and the non-suicidal individual is typically a trigger for the suicidal individual, I don't know that attempts at validation would make the situation improve.  I am a fan of 3rd party intervention.  Not even necessarily emergency personnel, but just someone less evocative to try and better assess the situation.

She hates my guts and believes I frequently go out of my way to hurt her. It's not ideal situation for reaching out and convincing her to talk to a professional. I'd need something in between talking to her and calling the emergency services. That is, something that in one hand doesn't require me to convince her to voluntarily do something, but on the other hand is not reserved for immediate life threatening emergencies, but rather general concern for someones well being.

Right now contacting the social workers about my concern for her, and letting her know I'm doing it, is the best course of action I can think of. It will probably still result in a major conflict and she will be convinced I'm just angling to eventually get full custody (or something similar, who knows exactly).

I have great concerns for her and nothing that has happened lately has diminished them one bit. If we leave me out of the picture, she has no social support network other than her aging parents, no means besides what her parents can spare from their pensions/savings, no hobbies or other things to bring her joy or meaning (other than our child), and no energy or optimism to put in the effort to change these (depression and colored thinking).

So she is both in a bad place and really dependent on me. If I were to leave her, like I think I must for the sake of me and our child, how will she fair? You could (rightly) tell me that it is out of my hands and ultimately not my responsibility, but because of our child I feel I need more than attitude of "let things fall as they may".

Our child is very attached to her, and their bond is strong and beautiful. Our child loves me and we are close, but it's clear that mum's lap is the safest place in the world for him. Can she still function as a mother if we separate? Can I trust her to recognize if she can't, and take the necessary actions that are in the best interest of our child? Can I trust others (CPS?) to be on top of the situation when I am absent?

Are things escalating?

Something is going on for sure. It seems she has difficult emotions coming up a lot now, and there's even more criticism than before (didn't think it possible) and lots of fights breaking out. However, those fights have not gone too out of control, and somehow she is also recovering from fights a lot quicker than usual - we can now often interact in civil manner in even less than an hour after her blowing up.

_ _ _

Something that has always bothered me and I could use some thoughts on. It feels to me that my wife acts as if she somehow had unquestionable priority to our child.

I see this whenever we have an argument: she starts controlling my access to him. It feels obviously wrong, but I have not tried to resist her because our child is necessary present in those situations and I try to spare him of the worst.

Mostly what I mean is when we need to be apart from each other to calm down, like go our separate ways if we were on a walk, or one of us needs to leave the home, the child stays with her. It's never that she goes out for a breather and I stay inside with him, but always me that leaves alone with them staying behind. Particularly hurtful, somehow, were the couple of times when we were just about to leave for a walk the three of us, when at the last moment she decided she can't stand me right then, and told me to not come with.

If we just go to different rooms at home sometimes the child stays with me, but even then it's her who decides what happens, not us agreeing or that I have any input on it. (As an aside, a couple of times this has turned into some sort of "teaching me a lesson" kind of thing. She has withdrawn like that, and refused to do any of the things she normally does with the child like putting him down for a nap, even refused to be available when he starts asking for her. I don't know if she's been disappointed that things have worked out quite well in those cases despite her non-participation - wrong lesson learned there, I guess - or if she has even realized that's what happened. She has this fixated idea that I don't manage well with him, and that she needs to be there to comfort him and to micromanage, and mostly the idea seems to be quite resistant to any evidence to the contrary. Even though, come to think of it, she seems to have no trouble leaving us alone when she has somewhere she wants to go, so I guess she can switch between realities to some extend.)

_ _ _

Another thing bothering me, once again, is how much of the confilct comes from legitimate reasons I am responsible for.

This is on the surface now, since I am trying to wrap my head around what happened yesterday. Maybe writing it out here will help.

As a set up, we had a fight in the morning. It was so predictable I could scream.

We were talking about something quite amicable. Then, probably encouraged by the positive interaction, she opened up a bit about how hopeless she feels.

I did my best with what I have learned, and suppressed my natural insticts to either try to comfort her up by bringing up something positive or to try to offer some practical suggestion on how to improve things. Instead I concentrated on being emphatic and validating her feeling. But here comes the problem, encountered countless times before. As soon as I said something along the lines of "I understand it is impossible to find motivation when you feel like that", she loses it: Once again I try to minimize her by suggesting it's just her "feeling" things! That it's all in her head and she is the problem! Like I said, this has happened a lot, and I should know better. (Not sure what that "better" would be though - how can you support someone when they think validating their feelings is just trying to weasel your way out of really supporting them by confirming that their observations and interpretations are accurate descriptions of reality?) Anyway, naively I thought it would be ok this time, since she used the expression herself, since she was specifically speaking about her feelings, but no.

Alright, so once again she tries to seek comfort from me and is hurt instead. And once again I think I have been handling a delicate situation quite well and put myself out there to help my wife, but have her screaming at me and trying to send me on a guilt trip as thanks. Sad, but nothing new.

I manage to keep my calm mostly. Some irritation and frustration do show, and she let's me know how she feels about that, I have no right and I'm being aggressive, but mostly I do ok job de-escalating I think. Lately we have managed this quite often. Once she has started to calm down, this usually, also this time, involves listening to a lecture on my faults and what I should do to fix them.
Like every so often, she demands I should read psychology to understand people and interactions, and says I can't afford to waste my time on reading non-fiction. (Reading has always been one of my favorite things to do, even if I only manage something like two books a month these days. Somehow this seems to tick her off.) She tells me I have the rest of my life to read non-fiction, but I should make a decision to only read psychology for the next year. When she makes an unfavorable comparison between me and some random other man, I finally end the one sided conversation and go about my day - she has calmed down by then.

Later in the day I need to push our child in a stroller for a while as he sleeps. There's not much to do besides go to the local library, so I do that, and end up taking out two books, one on psychology and one non-fiction. On the way home I start to think about the non-fiction book - she probably will not like seeing it. Should I leave it in the stroller to collect later? Hide it somewhere else? I feel tempted to do so but that just doesn't feel healthy. So I just take the books openly with me, and somehow, even after having lived with her for years, fail to really think through how she interprets this action.

She is livid. She is once again convinced I was just trying to send her a message and hurt her. My actions keep piling on evidence on how I have a personality disorder. No sane person would be so hurtful.

So yeah, that's where we are at now. Some talk from last night felt quite serious, talk of divorce came up once again (but not in a constructive "would that be best for us" way but "don't think I won't do it" way).

I acted in an insensitive way, and I need to own that. There was no need to check out any books on the very same day she had told me she doesn't like it. Is she reasonable in trying to limit me in this? Definitely not, but I guess with the timing here was still just asking to be interpreted as picking a fight or stating "I don't care what you think".

I don't know if there was any real point to writing all this. I guess it has to do with how her perception of our relationship bothers me a lot. She has quite a consistent narrative where I am sadist/autistic/narsistic and she is the helpless victim suffering in my clutches with no way out. And she can tie that narrative to a lot of this sort of incidents where it doesn't take a lot to make me the bad guy.

[SaltyDawg]

I'm not actually based in the US, and it limits my access to literature quite a bit. I can feasibly order only so many books from Amazon.

https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/EBook_Lending_Libraries#Widely_Accessible_Libraries_and_Subscription_Services has a fairly comprehensive global list of paid and low cost lending services around the globe.  If you are comfortable sharing what country you are in, perhaps I can look up some local resources for you.

Not sure if it has the literature that you are looking for...

[livednlearned]

I acted in an insensitive way, and I need to own that. There was no need to check out any books on the very same day she had told me she doesn't like it. Is she reasonable in trying to limit me in this? Definitely not, but I guess with the timing here was still just asking to be interpreted as picking a fight or stating "I don't care what you think".

If you came back with 7 books on psychology, she would find something wrong. It was too much, you must be mocking her.

The purpose is to get you to choose between her and you, and even when you pick her there is another test because if you picked her, something is wrong with you or the test.

Once she sees you are engaged in the game, she loses respect for you because any self-respecting person would see there is no winning here. She won't quit the game because the alternative is to feel abandoned and that's the one thing to avoid at all costs.

I know it's not easy, but the only way through is to be the emotional leader. "Is there a book you want me to read? I'll let you pick one out that you think might help." Put responsibility for what she's asking for on her.

She won't like it, but look at what happened this other way: you listened, tried to do what she said, and she attacked you. Asking her to pick out a book puts some responsibility for making these improvements on her.

Does she read books on psychology?

[EyesUp]

If she's in the "split" mode, i.e., you've been "painted black" - there is nothing you can do that won't be recast, somehow, as wrong.

How long this continues or if it can be reversed is difficult/impossible to predict.

There are really just three things to keep in mind when you're in this situation:

1) don't be invalidating - which really means, become a sphinx and grey rock as much as possible.  this doesn't mean don't engage - because the perception that you're ignoring her = rejecting her = ultimate offense.  it's another tightrope walk.  near the end, my uBPDxw didn't like it if I responded to "how are you doing?" with "pretty good" (no matter how flat - or chipper) because "pretty good" was somehow another insult to her.  this had never come up in 14 years of marriage, but suddenly there was nothing I could say that was right.  ok, fine - feedback received.  "I'm good" became the default - and there was one less trigger.

2) think long term - accept that there are no quick fixes, only a million micro-adjustments that can influence your trajectory over time.

3) prioritize your health and wellness for your own sake, and for the sake of your child.  it's easy to get sucked in to your wife's emotional state and become preoccupied with it, and entrapped/enmeshed in all the codependent behaviors that accompany this dynamic.  try to put yourself first.  please take care and consider your own needs.

[PeteWitsend]

...
Our child is very attached to her, and their bond is strong and beautiful. Our child loves me and we are close, but it's clear that mum's lap is the safest place in the world for him. Can she still function as a mother if we separate? Can I trust her to recognize if she can't, and take the necessary actions that are in the best interest of our child? Can I trust others (CPS?) to be on top of the situation when I am absent?

Something is going on for sure. It seems she has difficult emotions coming up a lot now, and there's even more criticism than before (didn't think it possible) and lots of fights breaking out. However, those fights have not gone too out of control, and somehow she is also recovering from fights a lot quicker than usual - we can now often interact in civil manner in even less than an hour after her blowing up.

_ _ _

Something that has always bothered me and I could use some thoughts on. It feels to me that my wife acts as if she somehow had unquestionable priority to our child.

I see this whenever we have an argument: she starts controlling my access to him. It feels obviously wrong, but I have not tried to resist her because our child is necessary present in those situations and I try to spare him of the worst.

...

Couple thoughts:

1) it's normal - or at least common - for very young kids to be overly attached to their mothers, although this ebbs and flows over time. 

But the poor boundaries pwBPD have apply ever more in their relationships with their kids.  They get "enmeshed" as I've read that the pwBPD views their kids as an extension of themselves.

Eventually the kids grow up and are forced to make a decision (be mom's appendage, or be my own person), and if they choose the latter, will be painted black as sure as anyone else the pwBPD splits with.

2) She's using whatever leverage she can against you to try to force you to comply and (long term) not leave her b/c she'll keep you from seeing your son.

BPDxw did this same thing to me; I was glad I saw an attorney and learned my rights with respect to possession and time with my daughter.  I think BPDxw was LIVID when she realized her threats were empty, and in order to actually prevent me from seeing our D regularly, she'd have to prove I was abusive (I wasn't so she'd have a big hurdle to overcome) and it would cost her a huge pile of money to fight like that in court, which she didn't have and would prefer to spend on herself if she did.

For me, I considered staying married just for our daughter, but weighed the harm she'd suffer growing up in a broken home, vs. the harm she'd suffer if I left.

Ultimately, I concluded if I stayed, our D would be exposed to fighting and conflict 100% of the time, but if I left, at least when she was with me, we'd be calm and happy.  and 35% or 50% of happy time is better than 0% happy time.  Plus BPDxw was making it hard for my family to see our daughter, and doing all sorts of awful things to try to isolate me from family and friends.  I didn't want my daughter seeing me get treated like that and normalize it. 

The fact that your wife has said so much suicidal stuff is certainly troubling... you need to talk to professionals about how to handle that.

basically there's no easy answer, and in real life , when you have young, vulnerable kids, it's hard to come up with a bright line rule that makes leaving a simple decision.  You need to really think about this very thoroughly, and consider your own feelings and thoughts, as well as maybe outside opinions and expert advice, to the extent you can get it.

[Versant]

I had a bit heavy day. There was frustrating stuff in the morning, followed in the evening by suicide threat and the emergency services.

I managed to have a friend and their family over. I've withdrawn from people a lot and was really looking forward to this, something that is healthy for me and the rest of my family. Instead of a good experience it was another reminder of why I find it so hard to have people over.

We had agreed that I'd take care of everything and my wife just enjoys the visit. Well, the preparations I had made, cleaning, cooking, were not up to my wife's standards even though I felt like I put a lot of effort into it. The morning before my friend arrived was really tense, with my wife re-doing things I had done and us both being annoyed with each other. This didn't leave me in a good mood to enjoy the visit.

Then, once the guests had gone she explained to me at length how ashamed she was by me again, because of the food and how I lack consideration for others and how it was showing to the guests. Everyone other than her seems to be with a man who know how to be hospitable, but I don't.

This is one reason my social life has withered. After we meet people, it's so often either this, i.e. once people have left she recounts all the things I've said or done wrong this time that either hurt or embarrassed her during the visit, or then it's some negative observations about the people we met, how they don't seem like her, or were flirting with her, or said something that was meant to be a covert insult to her, or something. It's so tiring.

Well anyways, so there was already a lot of tension from earlier in the day, and then she got angry about something else. The reason, out of context, I feel was not that big deal (the food I was planning on bringing for us on our upcoming little trip was not what she wanted, and she felt by now I should have known she wouldn't want it) - but I understand the real reason has to do with repeated disappointments and feeling that I don't care enough about her to try and make her feel good. Anyways, after we tried to talk about it a bit she told me she can't stand me and wants a divorce. Then, later in the evening, when I was putting our toddler to bed, she storms about, packs a couple of items in a backpack and declares she is leaving now for good.

She monologues to our child a bit about how she loves him and would have liked to be in his life but his daddy hurts her too much and she has to go away for good. Then tells me she's preparing a "final letter" for our child exposing everything about me to him once he's old enough, and some other things that also have some "when I'm gone" feel to them. I no longer remember if she said anything about self harm, but that's what I took it to mean.

Once she went, I tried calling her mother so she would check on her, but didn't reach her, so I called the emergency services. They informed the police to try and locate her. Soon after I reached my wife on the phone, and she was like "here I am, choosing between killing myself and coming back home, so do you best to convince me". In the end, she didn't take much convincing before returning home. Only to be really mad when the police knocked on our door soon after to check up on her.

So now she is once again convinced that I am a narcissist playing power games with her. I cannot have been worried about her - surely I know that people who kill themselves don't shout about it before hands (uh - actually, no) and I must have been just trying to get some attention and make her look bad. I am sick and everyone else sees it, and she will take the child and move away.

[Versant]

I know it's been a while, but here are some replies I've neglected to write.

SaltyDawg, thanks for bringing up alternative book sources. Inspired by you I managed to find some locally.

Does she read books on psychology?

Yes, a lot. I use to be very impressed by her understanding of people, and how well she knows herself. Later I've come to see there are some fairly major blind spots and filters in her take on things, though.

When describing the events I think I failed to convey the context properly. The topic about fiction books vs. relationship/psychology books was actually not new for us - even when these events took place, we had a pile of books at home she had picked in the hopes (and occasional demands) I would read them.

In any case, your point about it being useless beating myself up for annoying her is totally valid. She gets annoyed by so many things I wouldn't guess that it's pointless to try to avoid it. I'm wandering about in a minefield. I used to be quite talkative, but these days I mainly keep my mouth shut.

If she's in the "split" mode, i.e., you've been "painted black" - there is nothing you can do that won't be recast, somehow, as wrong.

How long this continues or if it can be reversed is difficult/impossible to predict.

There are really just three things to keep in mind when you're in this situation:

1) don't be invalidating - which really means, become a sphinx and grey rock as much as possible.  this doesn't mean don't engage - because the perception that you're ignoring her = rejecting her = ultimate offense.  it's another tightrope walk.  near the end, my uBPDxw didn't like it if I responded to "how are you doing?" with "pretty good" (no matter how flat - or chipper) because "pretty good" was somehow another insult to her.  this had never come up in 14 years of marriage, but suddenly there was nothing I could say that was right.  ok, fine - feedback received.  "I'm good" became the default - and there was one less trigger.

2) think long term - accept that there are no quick fixes, only a million micro-adjustments that can influence your trajectory over time.

3) prioritize your health and wellness for your own sake, and for the sake of your child.  it's easy to get sucked in to your wife's emotional state and become preoccupied with it, and entrapped/enmeshed in all the codependent behaviors that accompany this dynamic.  try to put yourself first.  please take care and consider your own needs.

Good advice. Thank you. 1) I sometimes find very difficult, probably because often it requires approaches that I somehow feel are like letting her walk over me. 2) is something that could be immensely useful if I managed to keep it in mind. 3) is on the spot - it's very easy for me to fall into making everything about how bad she's suffering.

For me, I considered staying married just for our daughter, but weighed the harm she'd suffer growing up in a broken home, vs. the harm she'd suffer if I left.

Ultimately, I concluded if I stayed, our D would be exposed to fighting and conflict 100% of the time, but if I left, at least when she was with me, we'd be calm and happy.  and 35% or 50% of happy time is better than 0% happy time.  Plus BPDxw was making it hard for my family to see our daughter, and doing all sorts of awful things to try to isolate me from family and friends.  I didn't want my daughter seeing me get treated like that and normalize it. 

Yeah, this sounds familiar. I'm leaning heavily towards leaving for the same reasons you left. 

The fact that your wife has said so much suicidal stuff is certainly troubling... you need to talk to professionals about how to handle that.

basically there's no easy answer, and in real life , when you have young, vulnerable kids, it's hard to come up with a bright line rule that makes leaving a simple decision.  You need to really think about this very thoroughly, and consider your own feelings and thoughts, as well as maybe outside opinions and expert advice, to the extent you can get it.

I've been talking with professionals quite a bit now, without my wife knowing. I think the next step will telling her I am worried about her and then contacting professionals with her knowledge (but certainly against her will).

[kells76]

Quick thought on this topic:

I've been talking with professionals quite a bit now, without my wife knowing. I think the next step will telling her I am worried about her and then contacting professionals with her knowledge (but certainly against her will).

Like EyesUp said, there are no quick fixes/magic wands -- yet we do have opportunities to try to do things more skillfully. Even if our skilled attempts don't "work" (don't go the way we'd prefer), it can be the case that approaching hot topics more skillfully (less unskillfully) can lead to "less bad" outcomes -- again, maybe not the outcomes we'd prefer, but maybe skilled--->7/10 intensity outcome vs unskilled--->11/10 intensity outcome.

Have you had a chance to read I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help! by Dr. Xavier Amador yet?

Given that you would like your W to get help, but she (I am assuming?) does not think she has a problem, it could be well worth it to read through the book and see if some of the approaches apply.

Dr. Amador wrote the book from the perspective of a family member trying to help someone with schizophrenia (his brother had it), but the principles and tools are applicable to many situations where you have a loved one who needs help but may see you as "the enemy" and may also not have insight/perspective into their behaviors.

I bought a copy a few months ago and it was eye-opening in terms of laying down the fact that persons struggling with mental illness will not be receptive to force, coercion, guilting, or "proof" of how ill they are, as incentives to get help. People get help for the problems they think they have, not the problems we think they have.

Dr. Amador lays out his LEAP approach of Listen, Empathize, Agree, Partner, as a way to build trust and rapport with loved ones, so they experience you as an ally helping to solve their problems, not an enemy forcing your "solutions" on them.

Take a look -- it could be a more skilled way to approach the "you need help" interaction.

[Versant]

Like EyesUp said, there are no quick fixes/magic wands -- yet we do have opportunities to try to do things more skillfully. Even if our skilled attempts don't "work" (don't go the way we'd prefer), it can be the case that approaching hot topics more skillfully (less unskillfully) can lead to "less bad" outcomes -- again, maybe not the outcomes we'd prefer, but maybe skilled--->7/10 intensity outcome vs unskilled--->11/10 intensity outcome.

Have you had a chance to read I am Not Sick I Don't Need Help! by Dr. Xavier Amador yet?

Given that you would like your W to get help, but she (I am assuming?) does not think she has a problem, it could be well worth it to read through the book and see if some of the approaches apply.

Thanks, this looks like a book that, well, I should have read a few years ago.

At the moment it seems it has become a bit academic what approach from me would be the best one, though. Some professionals I talked to a while back were worried enough that they they notified the CPS.

To be honest, I have quite hard time waiting for the CPS to contact us. I feel like I'm sitting in the cockpit of a plane that's about to crash. We are approaching the ground fast (apparently they are required to make contact this week) and I can't stop it from happening, I have only little change to influence anything in the short time available and things moving with unstoppable momentum. I don't know what's going to happen, and it might be a big disaster no matter what small adjustments I might make to our trajectory. But also it might be that I have some change to influence things in a way that we miss a cliff face and instead crash into a field or something, and things don't go quite as bad as they might. So I feel at the same time powerless and afraid I'll miss some action I should take.

My wife doesn't know it's coming. It seems fair to tell her beforehands. Then again, they are the professionals and can probably handle things better than I can, so maybe just not telling her might make sense too.

Also there were several difficult conversations I've been putting off. Should I try to have those before the contact? That would feel like piling things on top of each other. Delaying further doesn't seem right either. (Not dragging my feet in the first place would have been best, no surprise there, but I can only look forwards now.)

I don't know. I'm afraid and feel like I've made a mistake letting this happen. I am firmly of the opinion we need help, but yeah, since I can't force my wife to seek or accept help, I wonder if there's much of chance that the CPS will be able to provide us with any that is useful. Also I've internalized enough of my wife's perspectives that I feel like a villain bringing this down on us.

[PeteWitsend]

...

My wife doesn't know it's coming. It seems fair to tell her beforehands. Then again, they are the professionals and can probably handle things better than I can, so maybe just not telling her might make sense too.

...

Also I've internalized enough of my wife's perspectives that I feel like a villain bringing this down on us.

Fairness shouldn't be a concern for you here; do what you have to do.  Trying to be fair to a pwBPD is like trying to dry out the ocean.  It's an exercise in futility. 

And regarding the statement that you've internalized her perspectives... you need to fix that.  You cannot let a disordered person create the reality you're living in, or you will just continue to go in circles with them, regardless of whether you stay or leave. 

[kells76]

At the moment it seems it has become a bit academic what approach from me would be the best one, though. Some professionals I talked to a while back were worried enough that they they notified the CPS.

To be honest, I have quite hard time waiting for the CPS to contact us.

I'd have a hard time waiting, too. Are you feeling anxiety?

Which professionals are making the report? Are they letting you know where they're at in the process?

I was sharing some stuff with my therapist a few months back about what was going on at H's kids' mom's house While the thought had somehow never crossed my mind before, after I had told her a bunch of things that had happened over time (no heat in SD15's room, oven broken, rat issues, broken smoke detectors, SD18's bed broken, etc), she said, "You know, if you're not comfortable calling CPS, I can do that for you". It kind of floored me. We talked through it and she ended up not making the call, because each situation has nuances where a call doesn't necessarily improve things. There are new issues at Mom's house now so I'm not sure if a call would now be warranted.

All that to say -- yeah, sometimes we're kind of blind to how bad things are.

My T was telling me that in our state, at least, CPS will generally try to work with the parents/family first to improve the situation for the kids. They won't just swoop in and grab the kids first. It'll be really important for you to try to cooperate with CPS's suggestions, to show them that in your family, you are the parent who prioritizes the kids' well-being. If CPS can feel confident that in your family, at least one adult has the kids' best interest at heart, they may be able to end their involvement.

...

What do you think the issue(s) is/are, that the professionals called CPS about?

[PeteWitsend]

...

My T was telling me that in our state, at least, CPS will generally try to work with the parents/family first to improve the situation for the kids. They won't just swoop in and grab the kids first. It'll be really important for you to try to cooperate with CPS's suggestions, to show them that in your family, you are the parent who prioritizes the kids' well-being. If CPS can feel confident that in your family, at least one adult has the kids' best interest at heart, they may be able to end their involvement.

...

Here they take the approach that given the volume of complaints and issues they're facing, and how they're chronically understaffed, they have to really see something that's a physical threat before they'll do anything other than close the file.  They won't dig, they won't continue to monitor the situation.  Their questions toward kids seemed to me to be leading them to that point.

I can sympathize with them, as I live in a very red state that doesn't prioritize "taking care of its citizens," but expecting calls to CPS to result in any sort of action is wishful thinking.  Yet the stories you hear from people are rife with tales of CPS overreach, taking kids from worthy parents, etc.  I haven't seen that. 

BPDxw had CPS called on her home twice by other family members (one of the calls was retaliation against the person who called first), and they asked a lot of questions about sexual abuse, - BUT that wasn't why they were called in the first place!!! - and of course after finding none, closed the file with no action taken, and a note that that the record shouldn't be admissible in any court proceedings.  Nice...

[livednlearned]

Some professionals I talked to a while back were worried enough that they they notified the CPS.

What do you think the specifics were that triggered notification of CPS?

You can learn some things online about how CPS is (at least in theory) directed to act. It can be algorithmic. Some people have a lot of animosity toward CPS because it's a bureaucracy. Same as family law court. If you get people with a brain and a pulse, things can work in your favor. A pulse without a brain, though, and you can get some weird and at times harmful outcomes.

One thing to be aware of is that they can look at both parents as complicit. When I talked to my family law attorney about my ex husband's BPD behaviors, she said: "I believe you, and it sounds horrific. You have to realize, though, that the longer you wait and the worse it gets, a judge will wonder why you didn't act sooner to protect your son."

You don't want your codependent traits to contribute to worse outcomes for your kids  

It's not uncommon here for a parent to realize a difficult choice has to be made between protecting the marriage and protecting the kids. There may be some lucky people out there who can figure that out but I imagine there is quite a bit of luck involved and maybe things get so bad the decision sort of gets made for them, which is how I see my situation, except that I was trying to have it both ways: planning for the worst, trying unskillfully to manage the best, which wasn't ever good.  

I wonder if there's much of chance that the CPS will be able to provide us with any that is useful.

It sounds like you told the truth of your situation. You brought some sunlight into your circumstances, which (unsurprisingly, because it's a severe mental illness) is beyond what you can manage on your own.

Your wife will likely go ballistic after the CPS call and there may be a period where she aligns with you, the two of you against the world kind of thing. She might be a better mother temporarily until it becomes too hard to keep it up.

If it were me, I would not tell her you're the source of the CPS notification unless you have a plan in place for what will likely follow.

Being 7 or 10 or 20 steps ahead will help stabilize her as she adjusts to changes that trigger her defense mode to code red. Planning helps increase the probability that you can stay stable to help her stabilize -- something she isn't good at. You'll probably have to make decisions that go against your codependent tendencies but are healthy in the bigger picture, especially the long term wellbeing of your kids.

Give your wife opportunities to make good decisions, but always be prepared that she didn't win the lottery when it comes to making good decisions.

[ForeverDad]

My wife doesn't know it's coming. It seems fair to tell her beforehands. Then again, they are the professionals and can probably handle things better than I can, so maybe just not telling her might make sense too.

This is a community of overall reasonably normal Nice Guys and Nice Gals.  One trait we all seem to have is a desire to be fair, even overly fair.  Unfortunately that equates to a sort of a "fall on your sword" or "put your head on the chopping block" experience when dealing with our emotion-driven BPD-like relationships.

This is a time to relate the truth (to the authorities but not to the perpetrator!) and "let the chips fall where they may".  You are not required to sacrifice yourself.  Let each person own his or her own consequences.  In addition, if minor children are involved then ensuring the truth comes out is crucial.  Odds are that if you 'confess' to involving children's services, then the other parent will likely have no qualms trying to sabotage you and try to make you appear worse than her, as in retaliatory allegations.

[Versant]

I'd have a hard time waiting, too. Are you feeling anxiety?

Which professionals are making the report? Are they letting you know where they're at in the process?

Yeah, I feel anxiety. There's a knot in my stomach, I jolt awake a couple of times a night and feel short of breath all the time for no other reason. Mostly it's because I'm terrified by what my wife's reaction might be, and not so much about the actual CPS involvment. I guess that says a lot.

It was the social workers I talked to that made the report. I knew they are legally obligated to notify CPS if they feel there's concern, but somehow I was caught off balance by this nonetheless. CPS has to make contact within certain number of days after receiving the report, so it will happen on next Monday the latest. The report apparently asked them to contact me before my wife.

What do you think the issue(s) is/are, that the professionals called CPS about?

What do you think the specifics were that triggered notification of CPS?

They were worried about our situation already, but tight roping, between making things worse by upsetting a delicate balance in a situation that was not directly treatening to the child, and allowing things to get worse by not getting involved when intervention was needed. Apparently what compelled them to action was me telling them about the incident a month ago (see my post before the last), where she left the home in an upset state while vaguely referring to how final this was and refusing to elaborate what she was planning (this in the context of earlier suicidal ideation) and involving the child in the situation by telling him mom was not coming back, ever, and it was his dad's fault.

My T was telling me that in our state, at least, CPS will generally try to work with the parents/family first to improve the situation for the kids. They won't just swoop in and grab the kids first. It'll be really important for you to try to cooperate with CPS's suggestions, to show them that in your family, you are the parent who prioritizes the kids' well-being. If CPS can feel confident that in your family, at least one adult has the kids' best interest at heart, they may be able to end their involvement.

Here they take the approach that given the volume of complaints and issues they're facing, and how they're chronically understaffed, they have to really see something that's a physical threat before they'll do anything other than close the file.  They won't dig, they won't continue to monitor the situation.  Their questions toward kids seemed to me to be leading them to that point.

I can sympathize with them, as I live in a very red state that doesn't prioritize "taking care of its citizens," but expecting calls to CPS to result in any sort of action is wishful thinking.  Yet the stories you hear from people are rife with tales of CPS overreach, taking kids from worthy parents, etc.  I haven't seen that. 

You can learn some things online about how CPS is (at least in theory) directed to act. It can be algorithmic. Some people have a lot of animosity toward CPS because it's a bureaucracy. Same as family law court. If you get people with a brain and a pulse, things can work in your favor. A pulse without a brain, though, and you can get some weird and at times harmful outcomes.

Between us, it's my wife who's terrified by the CPS. The fact that they have the power to take custody of the child is something she cannot see past.
I know that despite some horror stories, taking custody is a last resort, and as long as there's at least one parent (or even other adult relative) capable of taking care of the child, and no clear threat, they won't take custody, but offer support and monitoring instead.

I'm not hoping to swiftly get rid of them. I'm hoping they can help us, and to be honest, I wouldn't even mind them keeping an eye on us for a prolonged period of time.

We have had CPS involved once before. That time they left us with agreement to go to couple's therapy (which my wife then declined a few months later when we were finally at the front of the queue to get an appointment).

Fairness shouldn't be a concern for you here; do what you have to do.  Trying to be fair to a pwBPD is like trying to dry out the ocean.  It's an exercise in futility. 

Your wife will likely go ballistic after the CPS call and there may be a period where she aligns with you, the two of you against the world kind of thing. She might be a better mother temporarily until it becomes too hard to keep it up.

If it were me, I would not tell her you're the source of the CPS notification unless you have a plan in place for what will likely follow.

Odds are that if you 'confess' to involving children's services, then the other parent will likely have no qualms trying to sabotage you and try to make you appear worse than her, as in retaliatory allegations.

I'm afraid I wasn't clear when stating my dilemma about letting my wife know in advance. I was told that as a parent, she will receive basic information about the CPS notification, including the basis for it. Which in this case is concerns raised by issues I have brought up in conversation.

In other words, she will know I was involved, whether I tell her or not. My choice is just between letting her know what's coming or just letting the CPS contact her out of the blue.

So I'm weighing two risks against each other. Firstly that of having an extreme reaction from her before the CPS is yet involved if I tell her beforehands. Secondly that of her having an additional grudge from knowing I knew but didn't warn her, which would further decrease the chances of something good coming out of this.

So when I mention fairness, there's two sides to it. Obviously there is trying to be a decent person for my own sake, an instinct ForeverDad rightly warns against. But most of all there's the effort of managing her perception of things to make more constructive results possible. The latter might be an exercise in futility too, like PeteWitsend warns, but there's spectrum here, I feel. At one end there's sacrificing myself on principle with no hope of gaining anything by doing it, and at the other there are situations where there's little risk of harm in trying not to treat a loved one unfairly.

I'm thinking this situation is probably closer to that other end. Like I said, she'll know it was me anyways. Also the CPS apparently will contact me first, so I can try to time telling her so that there's not a long time before they will be involved already. And knowing her, I think if I don't warn her, she will be fixated on that, so avoiding this one pitfall makes sense to me.

In putting these thoughts to words I think I have now convinced myself with this on how to approach this one small part of the whole thing.

One thing to be aware of is that they can look at both parents as complicit. When I talked to my family law attorney about my ex husband's BPD behaviors, she said: "I believe you, and it sounds horrific. You have to realize, though, that the longer you wait and the worse it gets, a judge will wonder why you didn't act sooner to protect your son."

You don't want your codependent traits to contribute to worse outcomes for your kids  

For sure. My codependency has had us stuck in a bad situation for a long time already, stopping me from doing what would have been necessary to get us outside help.

Your wife will likely go ballistic after the CPS call and there may be a period where she aligns with you, the two of you against the world kind of thing. She might be a better mother temporarily until it becomes too hard to keep it up.

For better or worse, this us-against-all won't happen. She'll know I triggered the CPS request.

She's a great mother already, save for those situations when she's really, really mad at me. Which I guess means she really is not a great mother, but I hope you get what I mean. Our issue is not her parenting, but the dynamic between me and her, the fights it exposes our child to and the example it sets him, and also us parents being so exhausted from trying to maintain so unhealthy a relationship.

And regarding the statement that you've internalized her perspectives... you need to fix that.  You cannot let a disordered person create the reality you're living in, or you will just continue to go in circles with them, regardless of whether you stay or leave. 

Yeah, no worries. I'm aware and brought it up because I know it's a problem - I feel it helps to say these things aloud (or write them in a forum post).

[livednlearned]

She's a great mother already, save for those situations when she's really, really mad at me. Which I guess means she really is not a great mother, but I hope you get what I mean.

It's more important that you understand what you mean.

How she treats you while in a rage is part of parenting. She's modeling for your kids acceptable behavior toward a loved one. Because her illness is untreated and unchecked, she's creating an atmosphere of fear and emotional instability. Your kids will develop personalities in the shadow of that, studying you as well to see how to manage a volatile, difficult, and at times abusive personality. Should they be submissive? Is this love? Should they try to appease her? How will they manage their anxiety? Do they feel there's a point in telling others how they feel? Is this what it means to love and be loved?

Bill Eddy wrote a book called Don't Alienate the Kids: Raising Emotionally Resilient Kids When One Parent has BPD/NPD that can help broaden this perspective. The normal-range parent often gets overly focused on what the disordered parent is doing. The whole family tilts in that direction, trying to manage someone who, at times, is totally unmanageable, at least without that person agreeing to treatment and following through on it.  Eddy's book helps shift the focus back to what you can reasonably do as the normal-range parent. You can model flexible thinking, managed emotions, and moderate behaviors. That perspective can help you realize how closely your kids are studying you, and drafting off your emotional state whether you are aware or not.

Not surprisingly, my failure to manage a bully (who also had wonderful qualities, like your wife does) meant my son struggled to do this himself, not just with his father but with his peers. He seemed to end up in friendships with strong personalities who degraded him intermittently, just like his father. Only when I took steps to stabilize our family and shine light on what was happening did anything I say have an impact on my son, because it was (at last) modeled for him.

Our disordered spouses/ex-spouses allow their emotional instability to drive the family dynamic, and until we choose otherwise, we enable that instability. CPS, family law courts, and others insist on making emotional safety a priority, which is what's best for kids, even if insisting on that safety makes the disordered parent feel bad.

I don't know if it helps to see it that way -- it's tough when you're inside the dynamic trying to hold all the pieces together. There is often so much denial and maybe even delusion about how ill our partners really are, even when we know they're ill. I didn't just fall in love and marry a person with a mental illness, I found someone very mentally ill, and an addict on top of that.

It is not easy to recognize how normal we feel when to anyone else our situation is anything but normal  

[ForeverDad]

We have had CPS involved once before. That time they left us with agreement to go to couple's therapy (which my wife then declined a few months later when we were finally at the front of the queue to get an appointment).

So CPS will know she agreed to couple's therapy and she declined.  They ought be concerned about that.  Mostly about her but perhaps a little about you.  They may ask you why you didn't report her failure to follow through to them sooner.

She's a great mother already, save for those situations when she's really, really mad at me. Which I guess means she really is not a great mother, but I hope you get what I mean. Our issue is not her parenting, but the dynamic between me and her, the fights it exposes our child to and the example it sets him, and also us parents being so exhausted from trying to maintain so unhealthy a relationship.

If she is not relatively consistent in being a decent mother, then she is not a great mother.  Sorry, "usually" doesn't count.

Beware that you, in effect, defending her as "usually great" is sort of defending her.  You can't defend two different behaviors.  She is not two people, she is one person who can't be risked to continue behaving poorly.

And even if it is not directed usually at the children but at you, there are issues with that (1) the children are exposed to it and (2) at some point in the future her actions may worsen and she may directly rage at the  children.

In other words, she will know I was involved, whether I tell her or not. My choice is just between letting her know what's coming or just letting the CPS contact her out of the blue.

From my prior post concerning the typical and scary results from sharing TMI:

This is a time to relate the truth (to the authorities but not to the perpetrator!) and "let the chips fall where they may".  You are not required to sacrifice yourself.  Let each person own his or her own consequences.  In addition, if minor children are involved then ensuring the truth comes out is crucial.  Odds are that if you 'confess' to involving children's services, then the other parent will likely have no qualms trying to sabotage you and try to make you appear worse than her, as in retaliatory allegations.

[Versant]

How she treats you while in a rage is part of parenting. She's modeling for your kids acceptable behavior toward a loved one. Because her illness is untreated and unchecked, she's creating an atmosphere of fear and emotional instability. Your kids will develop personalities in the shadow of that, studying you as well to see how to manage a volatile, difficult, and at times abusive personality. Should they be submissive? Is this love? Should they try to appease her? How will they manage their anxiety? Do they feel there's a point in telling others how they feel? Is this what it means to love and be loved?

If she is not relatively consistent in being a decent mother, then she is not a great mother.  Sorry, "usually" doesn't count.

This is important and I understand that you want to stress it. Don't worry, though, I get it - hence

Which I guess means she really is not a great mother

Probably it didn't come across very clearly, especially since my phrasing separates her treatment of of other people (and the modeling of acceptable behavior that comes to) from other parts of parenting. But yeah, I know what you are saying.

[EyesUp]

Probably it didn't come across very clearly, especially since my phrasing separates her treatment of of other people (and the modeling of acceptable behavior that comes to) from other parts of parenting. But yeah, I know what you are saying.

FWIW, I've struggled with this, too.

My uBPDxw has generally directed anger and occasionally rage at me.  This has served her (first, surprisingly - later, obviously) well...  as our kids have learned to respond by seeing mom as a victim and adopting some protective/rescuer behaviors - without the ability to recognize that their response is at least partially motivated by fear - they don't want to be on the receiving end of the behaviors that they've witness and also occasionally experienced.

I was in the "she's a good mom" camp for a long time - out of an abundance of fairness as well as consideration for the kids - after all, kids benefit from a healthy relationship with both parents, and I certainly didn't want to expose them to adult dynamics that could in any way cause them stress or undue concern - about mom, or about themselves - but I've come to realize that it's just avoidance on my part, and mom has no such qualms about doing the same to me.

The thing that really sucks here is that sometimes doing the best thing for your kid is doing the lessor of the bad options.  It's taken me a while to see it.   Very, very carefully keeping your kid grounded in reality - to foster self-sufficiency and independent thinking and confidence - is so much better than allowing a disordered parent to induce trauma bonds, dependencies, loyalty conflicts, and other attachment behaviors that won't easily dissolve...

As parents, we can only do our best.  It might help to view this as a continuing process rather than as an all-or-nothing, every-moment-counts situation.  I do believe that slow and steady wins this race.

Parenting with a disordered partner / x-partner is one of the hardest things, as we don't have the luxury of going fully NC...  Hang in there!