The truth..

[thankful person]

I’m sitting in my car in a supermarket car park in the rain. I have a couple of hours to kill before my next piano lessons at students’ homes. I finished school early because of a nativity play. My wife does not want me home because apparently it will upset the kids when I have to go out again. In fact I even taught an extra piano lesson today to use up more time (it was a catch up for when a boy was off sick, but I didn’t have to do it).

My wife has complete control over me (it feels like). I feel like such a failure having been learning on here for a few years now. She rings me every break, every time I’m in the car. And shouts at me about how I’m not making conversation, but I don’t know what it is she wants to talk about. I just snapped back and shouted, “I do care!! Why do you think I talk to you all the time? I don’t want to talk to you every time I have a break, every time I’m in the car!!!” She hung up and hasn’t rang back.

I am at breaking point again. My Dad is very sick in hospital. I finished work ten minutes earlier for lunch and didn’t want my wife to know so I didn’t even text my Mum because my wife noticed when I go on WhatsApp.

I’m fed up with being made to feel guilty for going out to work. I have been doing extra days the past few weeks to catch up for all the time I have missed due to my wife’s bullying behaviour along with other things like my daughter being sick and me having an appointment.

I apologise to those of you I’ve told things we’re getting better. I did think they were, but it’s just me trying to be eternally positive. I have made and upheld changes but I’m well and truly stuck it feels. I’m torn between wanting to ring her to try and make things up. Oh look she’s ringing now… oh look I’m answering…

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[thankful person]

On and on it goes… She hung up on me because I didn’t answer the call quick enough. And here I am, going to ring back, to try and talk about our relationship, because apparently that’s what she wants. And she won’t too to therapy with me either.

[SaltyDawg]

I’m sitting in my car in a supermarket car park in the rain. I have a couple of hours to kill before my next piano lessons at students’ homes. [...] My wife does not want me home because apparently it will upset the kids when I have to go out again.

That sounds very frustrating, discouraging, and distressing all at the same time.  Rain is also depressing, and I sense you are feeling a bit alone right now, especially as you don't want to face your wife when she is being so mean to you.  You are not in a pleasant place to be right now.


My wife has complete control over me (it feels like). I feel like such a failure having been learning on here for a few years now.

Even though you feel like a failure, just because you are having a 'set back' it will feel like a major failure.  I am here for you, I am listening to you, and I am going to tell you that everyone, myself included has 'set backs' in the progress we make with our respective pwBPD.  You are interacting with an unempathetic individual who is oblivious to the pain and hurt she is inflicting on you.  I know how you feel, as I have been where you are at right now.


She rings me every break, every time I’m in the car. And shouts at me about how I’m not making conversation, but I don’t know what it is she wants to talk about. I just snapped back and shouted, “I do care!! Why do you think I talk to you all the time? I don’t want to talk to you every time I have a break, every time I’m in the car!!!” She hung up and hasn’t rang back.

I hear your frustration that you don't want your conversations to be negative.  Might I suggest in reframing it the next time she calls you, focus on her feelings, and the not the facts, and tell her something along the lines "I know you feel frustrated that I don't have anything to talk about.  I do care for you, and I would like to make you feel better, and that would make me happy too." [pause a moment] "I do want to have a meaningful conversation with you; can you share with me what is on your mind?"  Let her pick the topic, and then roll with it, being mindful to use "I" statements, and avoid anything that might put her on the defensive.  [btw, I am using the same techniques with you right now].

[SaltyDawg]

TP,

I broke up the message in hopes that it will reach you in the carpark.  Hopefully this one will too.


I am at breaking point again. My Dad is very sick in hospital.

I am sorry to hear about this.  I know my wife would run to the hospital when this happens to her.  It is friday afternoon, do you think it would be prudent to make a quick trip to your father in hospital?  You would get to see him, be with him, and it will give you a much needed break from your wife.  Take the kids with you, this will give your wife a break too, so she can fulfill her fantasy job of being an elf.  Present it as a 'win'-'win' for them, it will also give your mum a chance to be with the kids too.  The only downside is you will be away from your wife extra time, and the logistics and associated costs for making a last minute trip.

I am going to ask a very direct question, possibly disturbing as this is a FOG question - how would you feel if you did not make this trip and he winds up passing and you knew you could have visited, but didn't?  I know I wish I had made different choices, so I did not see my dad before he passed as I was on the other side of the world when he did pass.  I don't want to make you feel guilty about not visiting your dad in hospital; however, I suspect you will feel just as guilty for not leaving your wife with all of her drama.

I am going to quote the Serenity Prayer used by 12-step groups including codependents which I go to when I am in a situation like yours...

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

I sense you are conflicted right now, please use your wise-mind to do what is best for you, TP.  Have the courage to change what you can, and use the wisdom of your wise-mind to know the difference.

I know you would have to take time to drive each way, possibly book an inexpensive hotel/motel if you can't stay at your mum's.  If your wife is still breast feeding, have her pump/express her milk until you return and use formula if necessary.


Mum because my wife noticed when I go on WhatsApp.

That is a little bit too intrusive, I don't use WhatsApp.  If I use FB messenger, or other apps where people can see me being on them, I change the settings so they cannot see that, and I also compose my messages in a word processor, and then blast it out at once.  Technology can be great, but it can also be too intrusive.


I’m fed up with being made to feel guilty for going out to work. I have been doing extra days the past few weeks to catch up for all the time I have missed due to my wife’s bullying behaviour along with other things like my daughter being sick and me having an appointment.

It is great that you are doing catch-up.  I know this is easier said than done, a boundary needs to be set on your wife's bullying behaviors.


I apologise to those of you I’ve told things we’re getting better. I did think they were, but it’s just me trying to be eternally positive. I have made and upheld changes but I’m well and truly stuck it feels.

No need to apologize.  You are having a 'set back' right now, this too can be twisted into progress as a 'learning experience', albeit an emotionally painful one.  It would be very naive to think everything will be perfect when applying tools to manage and navigate your relationship with your dBPDw.  Your wife will push back on change, like most of would when we are forced to change in a manner we don't want to.


I’m torn between wanting to ring her to try and make things up. Oh look she’s ringing now… oh look I’m answering…

On and on it goes… She hung up on me because I didn’t answer the call quick enough. And here I am, going to ring back, to try and talk about our relationship, because apparently that’s what she wants. And she won’t too to therapy with me either.

I think and feel that you are pushing too hard to appease your wife, to make her happy, at your expense.  She is punishing you for not answering the call quick enough - that is NOT okay to be treated that way.

I feel as though you should take a page out of the borderline's playbook, and start to pull-away by attending to your father's needs (reassure her that you will be back on Sunday evening), and your own well being around your concern for him.  What do you think?  When a borderline senses that you are pulling away, they become more agreeable, in the case of your wife, and mine, as they don't want to be abandoned.  [Side note to other readers:  If you pull away from your pwBPD in this manner, your pwBPD may become panicked and may have a major episode, or can even leave you for another when this happens, you need to know what your pwBPD is going to do in this situation, as it is manipulation tool to manage their behaviors]

This will serve two purposes, it will signal to your wife, that you are your own person, you care about your dad, and are willing to take care of him in his time of need.  It will also serve as a badly needed break from your wife, and your wife will get a break from you to allow her to cool down.  What do you think of this suggestion?  And the bonus, is that you will be able to bring your children to see their grandparents.

I will wrap this up, with a reminder to do self-care, whatever that may look like for you right now.

If I could hug you, I would; however, a virtual hug will have to suffice.   

Take care.

SD

[thankful person]

SD,

Thank you for your support and I did get to read your first message in the car park while I was on the phone to my wife.

Actually something interesting happened which I know has been spoken of before on here. So there’s me feeling it’s a massive deal that I’ve just screamed at her, “I DON’T WANT TO TALK TO YOU ALL THE FKN TIME!!!” But no, to her, it’s not a big deal. And you know why? Because she knows it. She knows that actually when it comes down to it, I may be needy, but I am self-sufficient and she is not. So having finally upset me, she seems to have cheered up. She also rang me on my drive home from work but was much more pleasant. When I finally got home she was in a good mood and it was like nothing happened. I think it’s time to enact the boundary over what behaviour I will tolerate during these phone calls. It’s hard to know that I’ve hung up on her and then I’m going to be working for the next few hours without contact. But I think I should do it. I have a (stupid?) feeling she might treat me better. At least then I get my time listening to my music and bpd audiobooks in the car.

It’s like my wife sees my work as a threat. She develops all these reasons for me to miss work or change days. I have upheld my boundaries with regards to my promise that I WILL get all of these piano lesson done that people have paid for this term. My motivation for this is that in January I will be invoicing for the whole term and I don’t want to have to take off any lessons I haven’t managed to give them. But it’s like my wife wanted me to not manage it, to prove that she’s more important than my work.

My Dad is doing better now. I haven’t seen him since we moved as he’s too sick to travel. Last time I went he was disappointed the girls didn’t come (we didn’t have our boy then), and that’s put me off visiting, because my wife wouldn’t allow me to take them or come with us. This has been an ongoing drama since the kids arrived. I feel my Dad understands my situation. He was the less mentally stable role model, his parents were both alcoholics. I think I learnt caretaking from my mum and my brother did too. I feel close to my dad though it’s hard for him to communicate these days. He attempted suicide a few years ago and I begged him never to do that but I know he’s had enough of this terrible disease that is Parkinson’s. It is his birthday tomorrow, I will definitely try ringing him although he has been sleeping lots, Mum is hoping he’ll be home in a few days. I will see how it goes but I don’t think I’ll be visiting just yet.

My wife has cancelled the elf job. Remember when I said our kids are secure from all the Mummy time? Baby still breast feeds (never bottles) and naps in her arms at age 1. I “knew” she wasn’t going to do the elf job, but her reasoning is valid when I look at how secure our kids are having had this as babies. Just a shame I have to bear the brunt of her anger at having “given up her life” for them, when most of her time is sitting on the sofa feeding them or holding them (as babies but that’s because she had 3 in a row). She still wants a job but is realistically looking at a shift of a few hours not a day, I don’t know if she’ll find anything.

She’s also started guitar lessons and is playing the bpd game with her teacher too, being all upset and wound up when he didn’t respond to her message about buying a guitar. I was actually laughing to myself thinking how students message me similar as a piano teacher, and she gets angry if I reply during our precious time together. Anyway hopefully the guitar will provide some welcome distraction and confidence, I mustn’t mention that I can play the guitar, I did spark a rage last weekend when I told her I knew how to tune them because apparently that equates to me thinking I’m better than her.

[Notwendy]

TP- one of the hardest things I did was work with a 12 step codependency group sponsor who turned the mirror on me. It wasn't comfortable to have this done-but it helped because - we can't change another person, we can only change ourselves.

Your wife has a mental illness and she has a lot of control, but the other side to this is that- you go along with it. Why you do this is the question- and not the obvious- for the kids, to keep the marriage- these are significant reasons. However, this dynamic was happening before the marriage and before the children. Yes, things probably escalated more after the children came along, but there is something about this relationship that draws you into it.

I know you have not wanted to do counseling- and that is your choice. But it also could be that this is the "road block" to changing the dynamics in the relationship. It could be why- things seemed to get better when you learned the relationship tools but- then there seems to be a standstill. You are still reinforcing your wife's behavior by enabling it. Why is a question only you can explore and only if you choose to.

You can also keep the status quo. It's familiar. By enabling your wife, you have less conflict and she's less likely to leave the relationship (even if she threatens to). You know the results of what you are doing now. If you change behavior- that is an unknown. It also might risk the relationship if either of you decide you don't like the new dynamics- but the other possibility is change for the better. This may be something you don't want to risk- but you know that doing the same thing usually gets the same results and that is what you have now.

These are not only individual "crises" or pursuits of your wife. There's a pattern here. She wants something, seeks and interest, - then, when she gets it, it loses it's luster- because they are external "solutions" for her mental illness but they aren't the cause, or the solution.

Your wife reminds me of my mother, and also, your situation reminds me of my father. My BPD mother would call him constantly. Once they had cell phones, even more. If I was visiting and she sent us out on an errand, she'd call about every 5 minutes. "where are you, what are you doing". If we didn't come home right away- maybe stopped for coffee- she'd be furious.

Why do people use controlling behavior? It's a way to reduce anxiety. My BPD mother seems to need constant attention. So it doesn't matter if my father was at work, or with his kids, or doing something he's interested in. The attention was not on her at the time. In your case, it's your work, your music, your students, even your sleep- that takes your attention from your wife and she doesn't like that.

All of your behaviors to soothe your wife - reinforce her controlling behaviors. She has no reason to stop then. They work for her. The question is- why do you continue them? They must also be meeting a need of yours, because if they didn't, you wouldn't put up with them.

This isn't being critical of you.I have had to work on co-dependent behaviors myself, so I understand these dynamics, but people can vary in what they will tolerate and what boundaries they have. It doesn't mean you aren't a strong and capable person- you are. My father was too- he was logical, the wage earner, intelligent and talented, and effective with other people, but when it came to my mother, he somehow suspended his own reasoning and complied with hers. Maybe it was the only way the two of them could stay together- it also could be due to her behaviors being reinforced and it is very difficult to coexist with her any other way. It is very difficult to say no to my BPD mother but I don't know if this is chicken and egg- which was first. Imagine what your kids would be like if they knew they could have a tantrum and get what they want.


Your wife has no incentive to change her behavior. It works for her. She has you to support her, to do what she wants. Why should she do anything different? For anyone to change their behavior- they have to be motivated. If your behavior isn't getting the results you want- the change needs to be with you. Doing the same thing and expecting your wife to change isn't realistic. Another way to look at this though is that- your behaviors in this relationship are working for you in some way- they may reduce the fear of losing the relationship for you, or maybe if your wife is nicer to you, that's worth it to you. Every behavior has a benefit and a cost- you work for your paycheck right? If you didn't get paid you might decide to do something different.

Your wife will have less control when you decide to not go along with it. However, allowing her to control might make the relationship feel more secure- and so this becomes your preference too.

[thankful person]

Not Wendy I am humbled by the patience you have with me and the amount of time you spend explaining things to me. I know this is like working with an addict where you do what you do, but know that you can’t control them and their success is in their own hands. I know all of this. It somehow comforts me that you continue to try to help me because it represents what I have learnt about codependency, and indeed I have seen improvements in my wife’s behaviour when left to handle outcomes and results of her actions herself, rather than me always stepping in to help. What I mean is, I feel that the patience you show me is indicative of your freedom from codependency if that makes sense.

I’m still not ready to arrange therapy for myself. Our trip to Scotland was cancelled by the place we were going to stay, but my wife is still talking about wanting to go and see her new dream house up there. I stood up for wanting my mother to visit in the summer and as you know it nearly broke us, my wife is treating me better but many of these issues continue.

Today she had all these plans for the afternoon and I didn’t mention I had to be back to go out to work at 4. I didn’t mention it because she gets angry when I remind her I have to work later “ITS ALWAYS ABOUT WORK, ITS ALL ABOUT YOU, YOU RUIN EVERYTHING!!” etc. So I said nothing until the point she starts talking about us going out for dinner and I’m like, “hate to have to tell you this, but I do have work this afternoon..” And I got the usual response. It is infuriating because I teach school a few days of the week but every week day I have after school students and I don’t know why she can’t seem to remember this. Anyway she was like we’ll just get McDonalds and sit in the car park and eat it then go home, and I’m like, whatever… But then we did end up going out and then got home for work and it was fine. I know that when I’m firm with her she behaves better. I have 3 more days of school this term. My challenge for myself is to end these phone calls if she starts getting abusive with me for whatever reason. My challenge is also to get to work and stay there.

Then I have some time off for Christmas and we are doing various things as a family, including not going away it seems. What do you think I should or could be working on?

[Notwendy]

What do you think I should or could be working on?

What should you be working on? I can't tell you what that is- only you know your boundaries. What I can say is- if it is a boundary- only one that you feel you can uphold. If you cave, all that does is teach your wife that you will cave- and the boundary is useless.

[thankful person]

What should you be working on? I can't tell you what that is- only you know your boundaries. What I can say is- if it is a boundary- only one that you feel you can uphold. If you cave, all that does is teach your wife that you will cave- and the boundary is useless.

So, suppose my wife rings me on the way to work… and starts being verbally abusive with her tone and accusations etc. then I say, “I don’t want to talk to you when you are using this aggressive tone and saying these insulting things to me…” Assuming she will continue then I will end the call. Assuming she will then ring me within the next couple of minutes… do I answer? And how many chances would I give her within the half hour journey? I think it’s appropriate to give her one chance? This is a predictable frustrating pattern which drains my energy before I’ve even got to work, and I’m excited to end it.

[Notwendy]

BPD mother does this too. Calls constantly.

Boundaries are better held through actions, not words. When you say "I won't speak to when you are speaking like this to me"- it's not actually a boundary. It's telling her what to do. You can't control her, only you. Telling her what to do puts the ball in her court and then you feel obligated to give her another chance.

Nope---

The boundary is about you and what actions you take if someone is verbally abusive to you- anyone - not just your wife.

The boundary begins with "I will not have a conversation with someone who speaks to me in a rude or verbally abusive way.

Now, the other person still has the choice, they can speak to you however they want to.

Your boundary then states "when someone speaks to me in an abusive way, I will end the conversation".

Your wife calls and is verbally abusive. Your response is about you, not her. You say "I am feeling uncomfortable with this conversation. I need to not be on the phone right now and need some time to gather my thoughts, love you, bye".

The ball is now in your court. How much time is up to you. She can call all she wants but you don't pick up until you are ready. If she's abusive again- same response. Repeat as needed.

[thankful person]

Thanks not Wendy, that makes sense. I am hoping this will be effective. I mistakenly rediscovered the power I have when I was just finishing this post the other day, and it seemed that even me not answering immediately had the effect of my wife treating me a little better.

[Notwendy]

You certainly can do it. Sometimes when BPD mother calls, it's a way for her to handle her emotions. It's an emotional need on her part. So waiting to reply lets her manage her own feelings. Sometimes she will call several times in a row.

If you have a boundary on not replying during your lesson- keep that boundary. Most people at work can't be on the phone for personal reasons during that time. They can call on a break. You don't have to answer the phone every time she calls.

[rayndance]

It's been tough for me, every time I think I got a grasp, more things come up that I could have done differently. It is reassuring to know that reaching out through the phone is a thing. One comment I want to respond to, about appologising for saying it was getting better, and then having a setback. I have been telling myself to roll with it, and do not expect things to get better permanently. It has taken a lot of stress off me.

[SaltyDawg]

TP,

   NW has some really good advice for you.  Please consider following it.

   Since you picked a good topic on where to set a boundary, verbally abusive phone calls, this is a comparatively easy one to implement when you are outside of the house and I will focus on it exclusively for this message.

   However, having some knowledge of your home life, your wife is likely to barge in on you when you're at home if you ignore her in the manner that I'm about to suggest - which initially will seem like something much much worse, otherwise known as an extinction burst.

   You may want to consider a few sleepless nights of your wife's rages in her extinction burst to be worthwhile to implement the goal of keeping the sanity in your house.

   I was holding out for sex, and other good behaviors that I liked from my wife, they were not forthcoming, so I shifted or refocused my priority from reconnecting with my wife, to creating a safe space for myself and my children, if it mean sacrificing being nice to her for some kind of reward.  I knew I could not change my wife, so I gave up trying.  However, I did focus on what I could change to make my life a better place to be in for not only myself, but my children too.  You will likely have to process what I just said, and refocus too, if you want this to work.

So, suppose my wife rings me on the way to work… and starts being verbally abusive with her tone and accusations etc. then I say, “I don’t want to talk to you when you are using this aggressive tone and saying these insulting things to me…” Assuming she will continue then I will end the call. Assuming she will then ring me within the next couple of minutes… do I answer? And how many chances would I give her within the half hour journey? I think it’s appropriate to give her one chance? This is a predictable frustrating pattern which drains my energy before I’ve even got to work, and I’m excited to end it.

If I were in your shoes, this is what I would do... please note the excessive use if "I" and "feel", with limited amounts of being critical, or opportunities for her to become defensive.

Step 1 - Say something along the lines of "Honey, I feel like I am being yelled at, and that is making me feel very upset."

Step 2 - Wait for her response, if she apologizes, and returns to a normal tone, resume the conversation.  However, if she continues to yell at you, or escalates it; then say...

Step 3 - "Honey, I feel when I am being yelled (screeched) at, I feel that this is very disrespectful towards me.  I won't allow our children to talk to us that way, I want to model good behavior for them, so they don't pick up on this bad habit.  I would like the yelling (screeching) to stop, or I will hang-up / leave the room if we cannot act civilized."

Step 4 - Wait for her response, if she continues to yell/screech or escalates it, hang up the phone, or leave the room.  Follow this up with a text (which can be one-way communication) - saying "I will not be treated in this manner that is making me angry and I don't want to lash out.  I am turning off my phone right now; however, I will check in at xx:xx to let things cool down so I don't do anything stupid."  (even if that is a white lie, you want to de-escalate the situation).  Immediately turn off your phone (or silent, or mark her number as spam, so your phone doesn't ring) after that text.

Step 4B:  If she follows you into the other room, escalate the consequence to you leaving the house for a while.  Get in your car, drive away where she cannot see you, text her something along the lines of "I need to clear my head.  I will check in around xx:xx, and then turn off your phone.  Have some pre-planned ideas for self-care, whatever that might look like for you.

Step 5:  Turn your phone on at xx:xx, remove the spam setting - ignore the texts that she sent between the time you turned off your phone (unless relevant with an apology or emergency), and turned it back on, and text "I am back online, and I am available for a civil conversation, if I feel that I am being yelled/screeched at, I will immediately turn off my phone again for another xx minutes.  Wait for her call, if she starts off by yelling immediately hang up, and turn the phone off again.  Repeat this step as many times as it takes for her to treat you with respect.  If you are out at night (most cisis happens at that time, scope out some spots you can hang out, sleep, relax or some other self-care).  This will likely take many tries for her to be compliant with the yelling/screeching part. 


Notes:

Of course you will have to work-a-round your piano lessons and teaching breaks at school, so make sure the times are good for you, on your time table, not hers.

Always be sure to let her know you will be in contact again at a certain time, and make sure you contact her at that certain time, not a minute late, or she will get wound up again.  You need to remain calm, cool, and in control.  If you let your wife dictate your actions, it will be anything but cool and calm.

Make sense?

If you don't like this suggestion on implementing this boundary, please counter it with a suggestion of your own and I and/or NW might be able to critique it, and tweak it. 

Be mindful, the first few times you do this she may blow up even worse, you need to do this consistently, without hesitation, each and every time she blows up on you.  Keep your cool, don't give her an emotional reaction, as borderlines feed on these reactions.

I wish you luck in implementing this boundary.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

Thanks not Wendy, that makes sense. I am hoping this will be effective. I mistakenly rediscovered the power I have when I was just finishing this post the other day, and it seemed that even me not answering immediately had the effect of my wife treating me a little better.

That is your clue, it will almost certainly be better.  If you study your borderline's behaviors and their responses their behaviors can be more accurately predicted than a neurotypical (normal person).

Since this is a 'rediscovery', you might want to write it down, so you don't forget.  I have 4 notebooks full of these kinds of things for my uBPDw.

[thankful person]

Thank you all. Not Wendy, I am very strict on not answering my phone when teaching. I’m actually not allowed to at school, but recently my wife had to call an ambulance in an emergency for D2 and at that critical time the school switch board let us down in not answering and getting hold of me immediately. So I now have my phone on but on the understanding she will only call in an emergency. So far she has not. But she calls constantly when I’m driving and I curse the fact that the call comes through my car so I can’t pretend I didn’t hear it or anything. It’s become far worse since w doesn’t have any friends or job and is bored and depressed at home with the kids etc.

SD, you touched on an important point from my perspective. I try not to “bring the children into it” whenever we are having an argument or whatever. It seriously sparks my wife’s rage if I say something like, “I would like to set a good example of behaviour for the children and I don’t like to see them upset…” She will screech “you always have to bring the children into it!!! This is about US NOT THEM!! Don’t use them against me!!!” For this reason I try to avoid mentioning them in arguments, but you have made me consider whether I should start doing this more so that she gets used to it. I really don’t want to introduce too much crazy making changes just before Christmas, though I know there’s never a good time. Another problem not related to the calls is when I stand up for the children she gets mad so I’m ashamed to say I usually choose to keep the peace between us which also makes for a calmer environment for the kids. An example was the other morning D2 was refusing to come downstairs and D4 said, “bye D2” and w reprimands D4 for being unkind, when it was my perception that she was just (innocently) thinking “D2 isn’t coming down now so I’m saying goodbye.” Rather than spark an early morning rage and lots of shouting I just let it go and made sure to give d4 a big cuddle when we got downstairs. She’s not yet at the language stage of being able to discuss such incidents but I know I’ll have to be very careful what I say when we come to the point of discussing her mother’s crazy behaviour and unfair treatment of us all.

What are your thoughts on bringing up the children during arguments, as in, “I don’t want them to be around us having an argument because it upsets them” and also standing up for them? There are occasions when I do choose to stand up for them. Like recently we were in a shopping centre and we wanted D2 in the buggy as it was so busy so she had a tantrum and refused so w said, “we’re all going home then..” I suggested that D2 was very young and I felt it appropriate to give her a chance to hold one of our hands instead of buggy, to give her another chance. W got very angry at me “How dare you interfere? This is between me and D2!!! You haven’t got the right to step in, your opinion and suggestions aren’t welcome!!” I don’t like the children to see this, but she did end up doing what I suggested but would have denied it was at my suggestion. So even on that occasion I asked myself whether I was right to step in or if it just made the situation more upsetting for everyone.

[SaltyDawg]

SD, you touched on an important point from my perspective. I try not to “bring the children into it” whenever we are having an argument or whatever. It seriously sparks my wife’s rage if I say something like, “I would like to set a good example of behaviour for the children and I don’t like to see them upset…” She will screech “you always have to bring the children into it!!! This is about US NOT THEM!! Don’t use them against me!!!” For this reason I try to avoid mentioning them in arguments, but you have made me consider whether I should start doing this more so that she gets used to it. I really don’t want to introduce too much crazy making changes just before Christmas, though I know there’s never a good time.

I hear you, and I sense your extreme frustration about this.  Personally, if the children were in the car with me, and it needs to be 'hands free' (where I live), the children will hear it - I would let me wife know she was on the speaker phone and the children were listening in.  If the children are in earshot, I will remind my wife of that, and she will tone down her rhetoric. 

Relevant side story:  There was a major incident a few days ago where my FIL exhibited major BPD-like behaviors for the first time ever in front of me and within earshot of both of our children, which severely and negatively affected our daughter - and I have known him for 23 years - life is full of unexpected surprises and revelations where he accused his wife of cheating on him after 65+ years of marriage.  My wife and I were devastated to learn that our daughter overheard this interaction between my wife and her father and daughter was even more devastated.  Fortunately my wife is now on the same page as me with regards to these 'shameful' behaviors, even though she was oblivious to them a year ago.  Amazingly enough, my wife is aware of handling interactions with other BPD's yet she cannot recognize it in herself, the therapy is working, to an extent.

If your wife wants it to be about "US" and not "THEM", then you, and her ought to make sure that all  three of your children are out of earshot otherwise it WILL be about 'them' too, whether or not it is intentional as the story I just shared can so aptly expressed.


Another problem not related to the calls is when I stand up for the children she gets mad so I’m ashamed to say I usually choose to keep the peace between us which also makes for a calmer environment for the kids. An example was the other morning D2 was refusing to come downstairs and D4 said, “bye D2” and w reprimands D4 for being unkind, when it was my perception that she was just (innocently) thinking “D2 isn’t coming down now so I’m saying goodbye.” Rather than spark an early morning rage and lots of shouting I just let it go and made sure to give d4 a big cuddle when we got downstairs. She’s not yet at the language stage of being able to discuss such incidents but I know I’ll have to be very careful what I say when we come to the point of discussing her mother’s crazy behaviour and unfair treatment of us all.

This is something that you will have to come to terms with sooner rather than later.  First work on setting and enforcing the boundary with her bad behavior towards you.  I find making boundaries takes at least a week with my wife, if not longer.  Once your wife has become accustomed to this boundary, then you can make another, and not allowing similar behaviors with your children is another good boundary to have, even though this one is much more difficult to implement.  So, a good time to start with the boundary would be after the holidays.  Keep using strategies that work.  Recognize the bad ones, and then slowly 'ween' yourself off those strategies and replace them with healthy ones.  This is a process, just make sure you are making some kind of progress, even baby steps/crawl in a good direction.  It is easy to become complacent and let it stall or even reverse.  Right now I am going to be addressing a stall in the progress with my wife in couple's therapy in a few hours time.


What are your thoughts on bringing up the children during arguments, as in, “I don’t want them to be around us having an argument because it upsets them” and also standing up for them? There are occasions when I do choose to stand up for them. Like recently we were in a shopping centre and we wanted D2 in the buggy as it was so busy so she had a tantrum and refused so w said, “we’re all going home then..” I suggested that D2 was very young and I felt it appropriate to give her a chance to hold one of our hands instead of buggy, to give her another chance. W got very angry at me “How dare you interfere? This is between me and D2!!! You haven’t got the right to step in, your opinion and suggestions aren’t welcome!!” I don’t like the children to see this, but she did end up doing what I suggested but would have denied it was at my suggestion. So even on that occasion I asked myself whether I was right to step in or if it just made the situation more upsetting for everyone.

I am going to be very blunt, do you want your children to have the same relationship dynamics that you and your wife have when they grow up to be young adults?  The nursery school cliche of "monkey see, monkey do" is so relevant here.

Children learn from their parents, and if the parents have a toxic relationship, they will see having a toxic relationship as an adult as being acceptable, when in fact it is not.

With regards to the D2 and the buggy, please don't take this as criticism, I agree with your wife that she should have been in the buggy for your D2's safety in a crowded shopping center.  If your D2 was D3.5 or more, then a different age appropriate response of the parents would in order.  However, for a 2 yo "I agree with, birth-mum, that you should be in the buggy." (this will validate your wife, show unified parenting, which will reduce the amount of manipulative tantrums the children may have to divide you).  Continue with "If you don't get in the buggy, we are going to sit here in the car (in the carpark) for a few minutes and if you still don't want to get in the buggy, we will then go home" which would further validate your wife, with your modification to allow for your 2 yo to change her mind to allow for less impulsivity and less black/white thinking, and would be modelling good behaviors to both your wife and child.  I found when my children were like that, sitting in a car, engine off, radio off, screens off, about 5 to 10 minutes would pass, child would change their mind when they realize you won't change your mind, and you would have followed through with the consequence of the boundary your wife set, they would become more compliant with your requests.

I am going to reflect on that you actually appeased a 2 year old with your behavior (hand holding), you got your way, your 2 year old got her way, and your wife did NOT get her way if 2 yo being safe in the buggy, and your wife likely felt criticized and some level of contempt because of this. 

I choose my battles carefully, and if an opportunity arises where I can validate my wife, I will, this is one where I would have validated my wife's feelings, as I am a firm believer in keeping a child who is too young to know any better at 2 yo safe from being trampled on by christmas crowds.  If your child was a 4 year old, that would be a different story, as 4 yo would be okay walking alongside in a busy shopping center.  There are so many variables in raising children, it is difficult to know what is the correct direction - and this can be very difficult.

Let's say this incident was with the 4yo instead.  I would have handled it a bit differently...  I would have said "birth-mum, the buggy seat is a bit small, and it might be uncomfortable for D4.  What do you think if we allowed D4, to hold our hands and walk with us instead?"  That way you are not overriding your wife's decision, you are making it a healthy discussion, and not a bitter argument.  You are also allowing room for your wife to come up with the alternative on her own by making asking your wife's opinion on the matter, showing you value your wife's opinion, so she remains in control, but is allowed to change her mind without shame, even though you have reframed your desire as a suggestive question so your wife doesn't become defensive with a demand from you to have D4 walk while holding hands.  With this question it also signals to D4, that she is heard and validated; however, the ultimate authority, as it should be for a 4 yo reverts to the parents.  However is D4 is a D17, as in my case, that would not be age appropriate either where a lot more autonomy would be in order.

What do you think?

A reminder to take care with self-care.

SD

P.S.

[Notwendy]

The children are in similar relationship dynamics with your wife too- it's a relationship- and BPD affects all relationships.

I will take it back to you. You can only do as well for your kids as you can for yourself. Taking up for yourself is a challenge because it's risky. Your wife will either learn to deal with it, or it may impact the relationship. You know the results of appeasing her. It has its drawbacks but it feels safe in terms of the relationship. Doing something different is scary but one knows that doing the same thing usually gets the same results.

I am not suggesting that you don't intervene when you see your wife interacting like this with the kids, but that your ability to do this is connected to your ability to stand up for yourself too- and to withstand her reaction.

[thankful person]

Thanks SD again for your thoughts. Another thing which I forgot to mention is my wife’s insistence that “the children should know when we’re having an argument and that we’re both unhappy in the marriage.” Of course, I totally disagree with this. But she has used this line over the past year so that I will do and say more of what she wants because I don’t want the children to be upset and I don’t want them to know we’re unhappy or having an argument. I feel it is such an honour to be a parent and I feel so protective of these precious little people and I just can’t fathom why anyone would hurt them or allow them the pain of seeing us upset… Please understand, they haven’t seen any explosive arguments for a long time and that’s because I avoid them in order to protect them.

Thanks also for your thoughts about the shopping centre and it’s actually led me to an epiphany of sorts. So my wife probably feels I often criticise her parenting decisions and honestly if it were a more recent event I would apologise to her, but it was a couple of weeks ago. But here’s the thing. You are right, her parenting decision was not at fault. But it is the aggression and rage directed at the children that goes along with such decisions, that I find so upsetting. It’s about her frustration in wanting to control them. If I made such a decision then I would try so hard to offer an achievable choice for them. I try to be kind, firm, and supportive. The way my wife demands D2 to stop crying when she’s having a tantrum, makes it very difficult for D2 to get her emotions under control and make the right choice. By the way, I thought I was quite subtle with my, “may I suggest a compromise?” rather than demanding things were done differently. But at times like those my wife just gets very angry if I so much as give any opinions or ideas. There was another occasion back in the summer when we’d been at the beach for a very short time but D2 kept running off and we ended up leaving on my wife’s insistence. I understand and agree with my wife’s stance on following through on threats, but find it a shame to have such consequences where D4 also had to suffer, along with the family outing being cut short, and D2 wouldn’t really have learnt much from the experience.

Not Wendy, I understand your point about standing up for myself. I’m not kidding, my wife has treated me really well for the past 5 days since this post. I’m rather confused but I am questioning whether it’s because I didn’t answer her call for a full 20 seconds whilst I finished typing the post. Maybe more likely she has picked up on something that’s shifted in my attitude towards her. 2 more days of work, I’m curious to see what happens with the phone calls as we had them today but she was very pleasant for a change.

[SaltyDawg]

Thanks SD again for your thoughts. Another thing which I forgot to mention is my wife’s insistence that “the children should know when we’re having an argument and that we’re both unhappy in the marriage.” Of course, I totally disagree with this. But she has used this line over the past year so that I will do and say more of what she wants because I don’t want the children to be upset and I don’t want them to know we’re unhappy or having an argument. I feel it is such an honour to be a parent and I feel so protective of these precious little people and I just can’t fathom why anyone would hurt them or allow them the pain of seeing us upset… Please understand, they haven’t seen any explosive arguments for a long time and that’s because I avoid them in order to protect them.

TP, I am going to play 'devil's advocate' here, in order to encourage you to think independently about your actions.  I know you don't think your children should know that you are having an argument, last night I answered a seperate question on your D4 about her observations on how mummy was upset, and you answered in an age appropriate way which I thought was good; however, I did encourage you again, to seek out therapy.  To me it is very apparent that the children already know about it.  What can you do about it to ensure that your children do NOT know you are in an unhappy marriage even though they already know about it in their own way?

As FD has so often reminded people here, would you rather come from a broken home or live in a broken home?    You know you are living in a broken home, your children are young enough before major permanent mental damage occurs.  I too live in a broken home, that is getting better, but the mental health damage has been done as my children are older, and I am doing my best to reverse that.  You know that you cannot change your wife; however, you can change what you do.  I do like the fact that you are starting to (re)implement boundaries on abusive behaviors (and this is good change); however, what else can you do to change and fix living in a broken home?

I would like to point you to another thread that has parenting tips, I made a list and others have given book references at:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357246.msg13205335#msg13205335  (which includes the shopping center example I gave in a discussion with you on this thread).  In that post I pretty much outline my roadmap for making the situation better with my wife, you might want to read it.


But here’s the thing. You are right, her parenting decision was not at fault. But it is the aggression and rage directed at the children that goes along with such decisions, that I find so upsetting. It’s about her frustration in wanting to control them. If I made such a decision then I would try so hard to offer an achievable choice for them. I try to be kind, firm, and supportive. The way my wife demands D2 to stop crying when she’s having a tantrum, makes it very difficult for D2 to get her emotions under control and make the right choice. By the way, I thought I was quite subtle with my, “may I suggest a compromise?” rather than demanding things were done differently. But at times like those my wife just gets very angry if I so much as give any opinions or ideas. There was another occasion back in the summer when we’d been at the beach for a very short time but D2 kept running off and we ended up leaving on my wife’s insistence. I understand and agree with my wife’s stance on following through on threats, but find it a shame to have such consequences where D4 also had to suffer, along with the family outing being cut short, and D2 wouldn’t really have learnt much from the experience.

Please be mindful that a 1yo, 2yo cannot make decisions, so their misbehaviours should not impact D4, I am in agreement with you.  Aggression and rage by an adult to children this age, is inappropriate.  Being upset and angry towards a misbehaving 4 yo is another matter when the 2 yo is the cause of this anger.
 

Not Wendy, I understand your point about standing up for myself. I’m not kidding, my wife has treated me really well for the past 5 days since this post. I’m rather confused but I am questioning whether it’s because I didn’t answer her call for a full 20 seconds whilst I finished typing the post. Maybe more likely she has picked up on something that’s shifted in my attitude towards her. 2 more days of work, I’m curious to see what happens with the phone calls as we had them today but she was very pleasant for a change.

There will be good days, and then there will be bad days too.  Enjoy the good days, and try to maintain boundaries on bad behaviors on the bad days.  Your wife, if anything like mine, will perceive even the slightest change in my demeanor, and try to overcompensate, as I sense my wife has become unsure of my intentions after calling her bluffs, so I am keeping her at an emotional distance where she remains uncomfortable with my feelings, which seems to be garnering better behavior from her, more on her fear of me rather than a genuine wanting to the right thing.

You do need to stand up for yourself, just as I have learned to do for the past 15+ months, and it is making a difference.  It is still a work in progress for me, and I hope it will get better with time.  Keep up the good work, I know you can do it, and you are moving in a good direction.  Just be aware that there will be setbacks as your wife is learning how to live with the new you.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[gojira]

TP,
I wanted to call out this wonderful comment from SaltyDawg.

I was holding out for sex, and other good behaviors that I liked from my wife, they were not forthcoming, so I shifted or refocused my priority from reconnecting with my wife, to creating a safe space for myself and my children, if it mean sacrificing being nice to her for some kind of reward.  I knew I could not change my wife, so I gave up trying.  However, I did focus on what I could change to make my life a better place to be in for not only myself, but my children too.  You will likely have to process what I just said, and refocus too, if you want this to work.

After working with my therapist over the last year, reading all the recommended books, and following messages on this board, I'm finally understanding that I can't control my upwBPD wife's behavior. She is not going to change, regardless of what I do, and it's been very painful to accept that after 20+ years of marriage. As someone with codependent tendencies, this has been an especially hard pill for me to swallow.

Like SaltyDawg said, your energy is better focused on the things that can be improved, which includes your life and your children's. It's incredibly difficult to focus on yourself when you've invested so much energy in trying to keep you pwBPD happy. You can expect extinction bursts, but remember that things will be rocky even if you didn't focus on yourself and/or set boundaries. I'm in the midst of this now, and the fear of the unknown is terrifying and it is definitely not easy. It's the right thing to do for ourselves and our children, though.

[SaltyDawg]

Like SaltyDawg said, your energy is better focused on the things that can be improved, which includes your life and your children's. It's incredibly difficult to focus on yourself when you've invested so much energy in trying to keep you pwBPD happy. You can expect extinction bursts, but remember that things will be rocky even if you didn't focus on yourself and/or set boundaries. I'm in the midst of this now, and the fear of the unknown is terrifying and it is definitely not easy. It's the right thing to do for ourselves and our children, though.

Gojira,

   Thank you for your kind words.  Welcome to the BPD Family, I am here to listen to you and support you as well.  I am going to validate you in agreeing with you, you cannot change the pwBPD, they must do the changes themselves. 

   Regarding the extinction bursts, perhaps this is the hardest and most difficult thing to experience with a pwBPD.  As you know the pwBPD, is throwing a temper tantrum and is generating all kinds of genuine negative feelings of hatred and anger towards you that your boundary of their bad behaviors triggered them and they will blame you for their actions.  It is like disciplining a small child, you know it is for their own good; however, you hate to see them so upset being so mad at you.

   Their extinction bursts are extremely terrifying to us; however, I encourage you not to cave in to those extinction bursts (if you do, the next time will be much harder to do).  This is something you want to get 'right' the first time round, as it is the right thing to do for both yourself and your children too.

   All of this can be so emotionally draining, be sure to recharge by doing self-care whatever that might look like for you.

Take care.

SD