Back together and trying to move forward

[usagi]

Last time I posted I was convinced that my relationship with my pwBPD was over.  I'm not going to go over all the details here (see last post), but she basically asked me to give up my hobby because I was an hour late right when we had just purchased a home together in another state.  I left the house to process the next morning and didn't come back for three days.  When I did, we had a conversation face to face about why I had left.  I told her that I didn't feel like I was being heard in our relationship.  I didn't get into all the gory details of my struggles with her but decided to focus on that issue, which is true.  This first time we spoke she spent the entire time trying to convince me that I had a victim mentality and that it was really all my fault.  The conversation got pretty contentious.  At one point she said that I should go find some other woman that would be OK with me acting like a child as she was walking away.  I said that I'm not a child.  She charged back toward me.  I though she might actually hit me.  I put up my hands palms out in sort of a "peace" posture.  She yelled "don't touch me!" to which I responded "don't touch me".  She said what would I do if she did and I said I'd call the police.  "That would play nicely into your victim mentality wouldn't it!!"

Walked back home in silence.  She gave me a Christmas ornament she intended as a present while sobbing her eyes out.  I walked out the door and felt that was truly the end.

Later that night she Facetimed me.  She was in bed and crying.  She said "you can have anything you want, just don't throw me away."  For many minutes this is the only thing she would say.  I honestly don't remember my response.  I think I asked her if she had taken her anxiety medication and that we should talk tomorrow.

Next day she asked if I would come to talk.  I did and it was very productive.  I explained how I was feeling and what I needed.  She didn't take accountability for everything but some things.  It was enough to soften my position.  We started talking about how maybe we could patch things up and try again.  After much more talking I decided to move back into the house and keep working on our relationship.

This past Tuesday evening started with more conversations about our relationship.  We went on a long walk and kept hashing things out.  At the end of the walk I was feeling pretty good and ready to get to bed.  Right before bed the wheels came off.  She got pretty agitated and asked if I was going to quit my hobby again.  I said no and that it was important to me.  "More important that our relationship?"  "I am in great agony every time you go!!"  At this point I was in full on hold my boundary mode.  I didn't get angry, except once after a couple of hours of her asking over and over again.  Eventually after I said that I needed this little piece of time in my life for this activity, she started hitting herself hard in the face.  My jaw dropped.  I had never seen her do anything like this before.  After that she ran out of the bedroom and tried to throw herself down the stairs.  I grabbed her and kept her from falling.  Around the corner and through the kitchen to the garage.  I thought she was going to try to get in her car and drive to crash or something.  She came back in and reached for the knife block!  I prevented her from getting a knife.  At this point she started to run out of steam.  She went into the living room and laid down on the couch.  I sat with her for a while.  Eventually she went back upstairs.  I just stayed in the living room for a bit to catch my breath and try to think.  After a couple of minutes I climbed the stairs to go to the bedroom.  She was at the top.  I stopped at the landing because she was blocking the way.  She kept demanding to know why this hobby was more important than her.  I tried to explain that it wasn't.  Over and over again, she asked.  Then without warning, she leapt from the top of the stairs down to the landing.  She sort of fell on me and crashed on the floor.  At this point I completely gave up.  I said I won't go back to my hobby and that I loved her.  She collapsed and started crying.  Luckily she didn't injure herself seriously in all of this.  I got her to bed and laid with her till she fell asleep.

The next day just before she left for work she pressed again about the hobby.  I admitted that I lied last night to just get her to bed and stop hurting herself.  More demanding that I give it up.  I held my ground without getting angry or making judgements about her.  Then she suddenly stopped and said you can have it.  She said "I realize that I'll never be first in anyone's eyes so you may as well have it."  She left for work and that was it.

Yesterday she and her son left to be with her mom for Christmas.  This was something they had always planned.  Literally minutes before walking out she started asking me about the hobby issue again.  She said that she realized that I value that more than her and wanted to know why.  I kept trying to explain that wasn't true.  She said "why did you choose that over me?!"  She quickly became very angry.  She and her son left on that note.  Over the next three or four hours we had lots of text messages.  I tried to explain why it was important to me and how it gave me something that she couldn't.  But also that it wasn't more important than her.  She seemed to finally relent.  From there on out she became very soft and loving.

This has been such an emotional ride for me.  I feel like I've successfully enforced my boundary about my hobby.  I feel like I had to be willing to give up my family to do it but she's finally accepted it, for now at least.  Based on what I've heard from others on this forum I wouldn't be surprised if she starts again.

What do I do about the self-abuse?  It was unbelievably scary.  How did I do with all of this?  Is this what is meant by enforcing boundaries?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hi usagi,

Definitely a lot to unpack in your post -- thanks for updating us on where you're at.

Watching her try to hurt herself in multiple ways absolutely sounds unbelievably scary. I wonder if that's something where it might help you to find someone to talk to about it, whether a counselor or a crisis hotline -- just to process that with a trained professional.

Has she recognized or acknowledged yet the reality of what she did?

[usagi]

Hey Kels76,

She does acknowledge that she did abuse herself, sort of.  I pressed her on why she reached for the knife block and she denies that happened.  I've tried to talk to her many times since then about getting her a therapist but she said she doesn't need one.  She said that I just need to not push her to the point where she need to harm herself to relieve the emotional pain.  So it happened but only I can stop it from happening again?

[kells76]

She does acknowledge that she did abuse herself, sort of.  I pressed her on why she reached for the knife block and she denies that happened.  I've tried to talk to her many times since then about getting her a therapist but she said she doesn't need one.  She said that I just need to not push her to the point where she need to harm herself to relieve the emotional pain.  So it happened but only I can stop it from happening again?

It unfortunately makes sense that she'd deny shameful actions when "cornered" about them. I'm not saying you cornered her with that question -- not at all -- just that that may have been her perception or experience, that she was finally faced with an inescapable reality, and due to her weak skill set and poor coping ability, she decompensated into total denial of what would be a really shameful thing she'd done.

It also unfortunately makes sense that she'd deny that she needs a therapist. Again, if she acknowledged the truth in that, there'd be too much shame for her to handle. So, she pivots to blaming you: "If you just wouldn't push me to my limit, then there wouldn't be a problem."

Fear of overwhelming shame ---> irrational blame.

I think we're on the same page that you aren't the one who can stop it from happening again.

She hurts herself when her internal emotions are too intense for her skill level to handle. BPD combines extremely intense emotions with low coping abilities. And you don't have control over how she feels inside. You could be "doing everything perfectly" but if at that time she started to feel an extremely intense emotion, she would "find a reason" why you'd "made her feel that way".

So let's not go down that dead-end of "maybe if I did XYZ better, she wouldn't..."

It sounds like she wasn't stable enough at that time to have discussions about her behaviors or getting help.

Does she have a pretty long "return to baseline" timeline, if that makes sense?

I'm wondering if there are ways to get the issues dealt with, that don't require her to agree on what happened or agree that she needs help. Kind of -- can we bypass you guys having a "yes you did reach for the knives... no I didn't reach for the knives" debate, and move past that to "whatever happened, whatever we do or don't agree on, can we agree that in our home we want ABC and not XYZ?"

Two concepts related to that come to mind.

One is actually from our article on Supporting a Child in Therapy for Borderline Personality Disorder, but it can apply to any relationship where you want someone to be getting better:

Lower your expectations.
Set realistic goals that are attainable. Solve big problems in small steps. Work on one thing at a time.

Big long-term goals lead to discouragement and failure.

Although the person with BPD may have many obvious strengths such as intelligence, ambition, good looks, and artistic talent, she nonetheless is handicapped by severe emotional vulnerabilities as she sets about making use of those talents. Usually the person with BPD and her family members have aspirations based upon these strengths. The patient or her family may push for return to college, graduate school, or a training program that will prepare her for financial independence. Family members may wish to have the patient move into her own apartment and care for herself more independently.

...

A major task for families is to slow down the pace at which they or the patient seeks to achieve goals. By slowing down, they prevent the sharp swings of the pendulum as described and prevent experiences of failure that are blows to the individual’s self-confidence. By lowering expectations and setting small goals to be achieved step by step, patients and families have greater chances of success without relapse. Goals must be realistic. For example, the person who left college mid-semester after becoming depressed and suicidal under the pressure most likely could not return to college full time a few months later and expect success.

A more realistic goal is for that person to try one course at a time while she is stabilizing. Goals must be achieved in small steps. The person with BPD who has always lived with her parents might not be able to move straight from her parents’ home. The plan can be broken down into smaller steps in which she first moves to a halfway house, and then into a supervised apartment. Only after she has achieved some stability in those settings should she take the major step of living alone. Goals should not only be broken down into steps, but they should be taken on one step at a time. For example, if the patient and the family have goals for both the completion of school and independent living, it may be wisest to work on only one of the two goals at a time.

A big goal for your relationship would be that she gets therapy. That may be too much to ask right now (even though I agree with you, she could really benefit).

Using the concept above of "lowering expectations" (not "don't have any expectations"!), what could be something more achievable that could be a step along that path towards that bigger goal?

The other concept that came to my mind is from our thread on Domestic Violence directed at men.

Take a look at this excerpt:

If there ever is a time to have a values/boundary chat, it's when there is escalating arguments in a relationship.

Wait for an up time in the relationship and have a sit down about what you both value in a relationship.  Be sure it is a dialog, not a lecture.  Guide the discussion to the value of feeling safe and secure in you relationship/home - get some agreement on this.  Don't be accusatory - make it a "we" conversation - be patient.

Maybe a few days later - again wait for an uptime and make it a "we" conversation - open a discussion about how to protect the "safe and secure" value.  Talk about how things escalate, how to recognize it early, and how to take a time out.  Agree on what both need to do when it happens - make a plan together as much as you can. 

Be patient, be willing to let the discussion take place over multiple days - try to get as much by  in as possible.

Your partner may not be able to hold up their end of the deal when things get tight, but when you hold up your end, your actions will hopefully be understood as protecting the relationship, not attacking or manipulating the partner.

This will help more than you expect. 

This may be connected to the "lower your expectations" idea in that deescalation doesn't happen in one conversation. This is a long term project of many smaller converstions and dialogues. Everything won't get solved in one talk about "what happened" -- could it be helpful for you two for you to "take the lead" emotionally on having smaller but successful conversations, versus "talking about everything" and having it end in denial from her.

...

I'm coming at this from the memory that you want to try again with her -- so it is going to look like a lot on your plate and not much on hers, but to turn things around sometimes one partner needs to "be the emotional leader" in the relationship, and if (a) you want to stay together, and (b) she is really low-skilled emotionally, then it might be you for a while. It's also OK to try new tools and approaches, and then to decide that it isn't working for you, or to change your mind. These are hard relationships.

...

Sorry if I've asked before and forgotten, but are you in individual therapy?

[usagi]

Does she have a pretty long "return to baseline" timeline, if that makes sense?

I think I understand what you're asking.  I guess I don't have any frame of reference.  For me I've noticed that it'll take her a couple of weeks to keep going over some event that happened in our relationship.  She'll keep asking me the same question "why did you do this" over and over.  I'll keep giving the same answer but she will keep asking.

Sorry if I've asked before and forgotten, but are you in individual therapy?

I do have a therapist for me.  I've been with them for about 8 months now.  They are the one that turned me onto the idea that my partner may have BPD.

Thanks for the feedback, Kells76.  I feel like I need to spend some more time with the resources on this site.

I have a feeling that I'm never going to get her into therapy.  She's had such a bad time with them related to her son and her ex.  She did counseling for her son's behavior but got a lot of poor matches.  She also did some couples therapy with her ex but my impression was that they tried to blame her for something and she ended the help.

I think I need to make sure to not to leave her when we are having an argument about something.  I can say that I need to take a break from the conversation but should stay in the house while I'm cooling down.

She has kept asking me why did I keep making it worse that night.  Later I told her that maybe I should have just said, "yes I'll quite my hobby" just to get her to calm down then talk about it with her the next day when she's more regulated.  But that seems like I'm flexing my boundary?  Is it better for them to have a fit while you are holding a boundary or to let it flex then revisit it when they are more calm?

[usagi]

“How could you just stand there and watch me suffer instead of just saying you would quite doing your hobby!?”

This is a question I have been getting a lot lately. 

“If my son were threatening suicide I would do anything to make him feel better.”

I’m not sure how to respond to this.  I’m not responsible for her emotions but she thinks I cause them.  My actions fully determine if she is happy, sad, or angry.  I’ve responded by saying that I hate seeing her suffer but that it’s not in my power to make you feel better.

[SaltyDawg]

I’ve responded by saying that I hate seeing her suffer but that it’s not in my power to make you feel better.

That's a very good way of responding.

If she threatens suicide, tell her you will call 911 to get her the proper help.  If she is thinking of suicide, you will call 988 and hand her the phone to get her help.  Indicate that you care for her well-being, and both of these are acts of caring.

Take care, with self-care.

SD

[usagi]

Thanks SaltyDawg =)

She's been pretty depressed since all of this happened.  And it's been a near constant conversation of "why did you do this to me".  Last night she said she needed to be in a relationship with someone who was willing to give up everything for her.  She asked if there would ever be a time when I'd give up things for her and I said it depended on the situation but yes.  Apparently that didn't sit well.  But I feel like I need to be honest.  I mean, if she got cancer or some other life threatening illness I'd put a lot on hold to be with her.  I won't quite my hobby completely because she got upset that I stayed an extra hour.  I don't think that's reasonable.

I feel like she's trying to tire me out.  We keep rehashing the same conversation about the night that she did self-harm when I said I wasn't quitting my hobby.  "It's clear that our relationship isn't your first priority..."  I try to explain that it actually is but it seems that she needs someone who will be willing to give up everything.  "If both people are willing to give up everything for each other it'll just work out that both will get what they really need..."

I'm sticking to my boundary though.  It's been very difficult but I'm committed.  She threatens to leave me all the time so I'm starting to become numb to that statement.  Regardless, it does make me feel pretty insecure about my future.

[jaded7]

Thanks SaltyDawg =)

She's been pretty depressed since all of this happened.  And it's been a near constant conversation of "why did you do this to me".  Last night she said she needed to be in a relationship with someone who was willing to give up everything for her.  She asked if there would ever be a time when I'd give up things for her and I said it depended on the situation but yes.  Apparently that didn't sit well.  But I feel like I need to be honest.  I mean, if she got cancer or some other life threatening illness I'd put a lot on hold to be with her.  I won't quite my hobby completely because she got upset that I stayed an extra hour.  I don't think that's reasonable.

I feel like she's trying to tire me out.  We keep rehashing the same conversation about the night that she did self-harm when I said I wasn't quitting my hobby.  "It's clear that our relationship isn't your first priority..."  I try to explain that it actually is but it seems that she needs someone who will be willing to give up everything.  "If both people are willing to give up everything for each other it'll just work out that both will get what they really need..."

I'm sticking to my boundary though.  It's been very difficult but I'm committed.  She threatens to leave me all the time so I'm starting to become numb to that statement.  Regardless, it does make me feel pretty insecure about my future.

She's set a requirement for the relationship that is both unhealthy and controlling, which is of course a product of her thinking and BPD. There is no connection between you having a hobby you like and your love for her, but she has made one and is REALLY sticking to it, in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Which is also characteristic of BPD thinking.

It's a hurdle she's placed that she is requiring you to leap over, but the problem is the hurdle needn't be there in the first place and, as I'm sure you know, even if you do clear this hurdle there will be another one down the track a little way, and meanwhile you have given up your agency and personhood. This doesn't lead anywhere good.

I'm sorry you are going through this. It's so hard. She is blaming you for her feelings, requiring you to change to make her feel better. She blaming you for her behavior, and you therefore must change to stop the behavior.

She is exhibiting really dangerous behaviors, and I worry for you in this relationship. I think you are doing a good job setting a boundary, even though you know that it may cost you the relationship. But she is showing really serious behaviors of self-harm as manipulation, and I'm worried how you may be caught up in this.

Kells, as always, has really good advice. I always read her responses to others because they are so insightful. Your partners behavior and outsourcing blame to you is because she cannot tolerate shame. There is no way you will be able to behave or 'change' or drop your hobby to make that shame of hers to go away, at least according to everything I've read and viewed on BPD.

Really, the ball is in her court to deal with that, it's always been there. No amount of shifting and accepting blame for every little occurrence or situation changes that.

 

[usagi]

Hi jaded7

I'm trying to take someone's advice to pick a boundary and hold to it.  She won't be able to handle any more than that, and maybe not even this much.

I've been talking with my therapist and we agree that she'll probably never leave me.  I've shown that I'm able to support her emotional needs even if she doesn't recognize it.  I'm able to do a lot of the things that she needs and she really loves me.  Like you said, she's just not able to handle the shame of being overwhelmed by her emotions.

I honestly don't know what's going to happen.  We have six months left on the lease for our house.  We were planning on moving to a new state.  Now she says she can't buy a house with me.  I get that.  We were under contract and because of what happened we had to back out.  She's worried about her safety.  "If I buy a house with you you could just throw me away and I'd be out my life savings..."

Everyone in her life; ex-husband, son, mother, brother, me...all are the cause of her emotional agony.

I'm gonna keep holding my ground and trying to reassure her that I'm not leaving and that I do love her unconditionally.  It's up to her to believe me or not.

2023 was a VERY trying year.  That's when I found out that she's expressing borderline/narcissistic behaviors.  That gave me tremendous hope but also made me realize that this relationship would be extremely difficult to maintain.  The way this year is shaping up it'll be a grind.  I'm doing my best to take care of myself and remind myself that I'm a good person and have been working very hard to stay in this relationship.

Thanks everyone for the support.  I've learned lots but feel there's much more to learn, if the relationship continues.

[jaded7]

Hi jaded7

I'm trying to take someone's advice to pick a boundary and hold to it.  She won't be able to handle any more than that, and maybe not even this much.

I've been talking with my therapist and we agree that she'll probably never leave me.  I've shown that I'm able to support her emotional needs even if she doesn't recognize it.  I'm able to do a lot of the things that she needs and she really loves me.  Like you said, she's just not able to handle the shame of being overwhelmed by her emotions.

I honestly don't know what's going to happen.  We have six months left on the lease for our house.  We were planning on moving to a new state.  Now she says she can't buy a house with me.  I get that.  We were under contract and because of what happened we had to back out.  She's worried about her safety.  "If I buy a house with you you could just throw me away and I'd be out my life savings..."

Everyone in her life; ex-husband, son, mother, brother, me...all are the cause of her emotional agony.

I'm gonna keep holding my ground and trying to reassure her that I'm not leaving and that I do love her unconditionally.  It's up to her to believe me or not.

2023 was a VERY trying year.  That's when I found out that she's expressing borderline/narcissistic behaviors.  That gave me tremendous hope but also made me realize that this relationship would be extremely difficult to maintain.  The way this year is shaping up it'll be a grind.  I'm doing my best to take care of myself and remind myself that I'm a good person and have been working very hard to stay in this relationship.

Thanks everyone for the support.  I've learned lots but feel there's much more to learn, if the relationship continues.

I get that you love her, and want to help her.

But she reached for a knife, she had you worried she was going to drive and crash the car, she leaped from the tops of stairs onto you, she approached you in a physically threatening manner where you had to put up your arms to defend yourself.

This worries me that you'll find yourself in a situation where someone, you or her, is hurt. And then the police come. Once the police come you will be in a precarious situation entirely dependent on the mind of the officers that show up. And dependent on her telling the truth about what happened.

I can't tell you how many stories I've heard of men defending themselves against an attacking woman partner who were arrested. Or how many men were accused of harming their partner when the partner self-harmed. Or how many men defended themselves against an attacking woman partner only to be arrested.

I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just sharing that I'm worried about such a violent situation.

[usagi]

It's definitely a concern I share.  And to be honest I don't have a good plan in place for if that happens again.  I think the advice I've heard here is helpful but not sure how effective it will be.

I've heard that calling 911 will likely get a single police officer unless I'm lucky enough to get a mental health specialist in tow.  If she started harming herself and I called 911 it would probably result in an officer showing up, by which time she may have calmed down a bit, and offering resources but that's it.  If she threatens suicide a call to 988 will result in much the same assistance.  I did call 988 that morning after she had left the house.

She's said that she slapped her ex-husband once but I imagine there may be more to that story.

At this point I'm just trying to hold my ground with the single boundary I've set.  If this ends up wrecking the relationship then it was not healthy to begin with.  If she can abide that boundary then we'll see what happens next.

[SaltyDawg]

She's been pretty depressed since all of this happened.  And it's been a near constant conversation of "why did you do this to me".  Last night she said she needed to be in a relationship with someone who was willing to give up everything for her.  She asked if there would ever be a time when I'd give up things for her and I said it depended on the situation but yes.  Apparently that didn't sit well.  But I feel like I need to be honest.  I mean, if she got cancer or some other life threatening illness I'd put a lot on hold to be with her.  I won't quite my hobby completely because she got upset that I stayed an extra hour.  I don't think that's reasonable.

My uBPDw used to be that way too - she actually tried to commit suicide when I told her that I was going to take a few hours per week to do self-care instead of dedicating every waking hour to being her servant (to do what she wanted, when she wanted, and how she wanted).  I can tell you from first hand experience this does not work.  From what you describe, and I also am describing my pwBPD this is the outward manifestation of the "Persistent feelings of emptiness" symptom of BPD.  Where no matter how much you try and fill their cup, they still feel as though you are not doing enough, and this includes every waking hour of each and every day.  No matter what you do, they will still feel empty inside.  I asked my wife in a therapy session, and she verbally confirmed this symptom as most of us are not mind readers.

Don't quit your hobby, it is self-care, for you.  However, don't call attention to it either, unless she makes it an issue, and then hold your boundary.  You could say something along the lines of "I will make our relationship a priority, and I will be there to support you."  If she continues to press you, then you can add "I understand doing something that defines who I am makes you feel underappreciated; however, this is something that I enjoy doing."  Add this if it is genuine "It is a part of who I am.  I am willing to compromise in order to accommodate your wants while still maintaining who I am".

I feel like she's trying to tire me out.  We keep rehashing the same conversation about the night that she did self-harm when I said I wasn't quitting my hobby.  "It's clear that our relationship isn't your first priority..."  I try to explain that it actually is but it seems that she needs someone who will be willing to give up everything.  "If both people are willing to give up everything for each other it'll just work out that both will get what they really need..."

She is will not relent, until she gets her way - just like a toddler holding their breath, it will be repeat over and over, unless a boundary is set and enforced (or you give in, and then it will be something else, next - look to see if there was something before your 'hobby' issue).

Concentrate on validating her feelings, and not get stuck in the details - ignore the hobby issue, and focus on her feelings, and say something "I know you want to feel as though you are my first priority.  I am here now, listening to you now, being a shoulder for you to cry on now, and right now I am giving up all my time to be with you right now.  Can you tell me right now, on how I am not making you a priority right now?"  [Challenge her perception of her false narrative, make her tell you how you are not being for her in the 'here and now' when in fact you are].

If she answers "But, you are doing your hobbies over me".  Don't validate this; however, do return with a question with another question, "I am here right now for you, and in this conversation you are my priority."

You will likely go in circles saying the same things over and over again - I usually let it circle two times around, and possibly a 3rd, before I enact a boundary on the circular arguments.  I usually verbally say "This is going nowhere, we keep on going around in circles on this topic.  I am here for you now.  I don't want to talk about my hobby, as I am not doing it now.  I want to talk about you - other than my hobby, what would you like to talk about?"  If she stays focused on your hobby still.  Then enact a boundary "Since we can only talk about a hobby that I am not doing at the moment, I feel like we are going nowhere in this conversation - I would like to pause it, as I don't want to get any more upset" [even though you are doing it so she doesn't get any more upset, and perhaps you may be getting upset too, own your part of the feelings].  "Perhaps we can revisit this when I am not so upset over it"

I'm sticking to my boundary though.  It's been very difficult but I'm committed.  She threatens to leave me all the time so I'm starting to become numb to that statement.  Regardless, it does make me feel pretty insecure about my future.

Mine has given me +/- 50 divorce threats, she even did one in front of the couple's therapist - a full narcissistic abuse cycle of Idolize --> Devalue --> Discard --> Repeat which describes the 2nd symptom of BPD "Unstable, intense relationships that alternate between idealizing and devaluing the other person"

I'm trying to take someone's advice to pick a boundary and hold to it.  She won't be able to handle any more than that, and maybe not even this much.

I've been talking with my therapist and we agree that she'll probably never leave me.  I've shown that I'm able to support her emotional needs even if she doesn't recognize it.  I'm able to do a lot of the things that she needs and she really loves me.  Like you said, she's just not able to handle the shame of being overwhelmed by her emotions.

Keep your boundaries, I gave examples on how I might enforce my version of these boundaries above, adopt the portions you like, or use your own version - do what is best to maintain your sanity.

I would agree with your therapist, most BPD's will make those threats, so you won't leave them; however, they want someone to blame, so they make up these facts to match their feelings so they can put the blame on you, when in fact it is not true.

I honestly don't know what's going to happen.  We have six months left on the lease for our house.  We were planning on moving to a new state.  Now she says she can't buy a house with me.  I get that.  We were under contract and because of what happened we had to back out.  She's worried about her safety.  "If I buy a house with you you could just throw me away and I'd be out my life savings..."

Her feelings are genuine and you have acknowledged that.  You might want to re-evaluate in a few months time to see if things get better, or not.  If they do get better, perhaps find a lease or a rental in the new state and let things progress, and re-evaluate at that time.  Unless you know for sure you are going to marry her or have a child together, I would suggest avoiding commingling assets.

Everyone in her life; ex-husband, son, mother, brother, me...all are the cause of her emotional agony.

She has blamed them, now she is blaming you, otherwise known as 'blame shifting'.  Past behaviors are indicative of future ones with you.  If I were you, I would take a closer look at her relationship with her ex-husband, and perhaps strike up a conversation with him on why they split.  I am sure you have her side of the story, you might want to find out his as well.

I'm gonna keep holding my ground and trying to reassure her that I'm not leaving and that I do love her unconditionally.  It's up to her to believe me or not.

It is up to her to believe that or not.  However, unless she has some therapy, she likely will not believe that this is true.  If there is no therapy, all you can do is hold your boundaries, so it doesn't get worse.  If she never believes this; how would this make you feel?

2023 was a VERY trying year.  That's when I found out that she's expressing borderline/narcissistic behaviors.  That gave me tremendous hope but also made me realize that this relationship would be extremely difficult to maintain.  The way this year is shaping up it'll be a grind.  I'm doing my best to take care of myself and remind myself that I'm a good person and have been working very hard to stay in this relationship.

Thanks everyone for the support.  I've learned lots but feel there's much more to learn, if the relationship continues.

It is difficult to maintain.  There will be good days and bad days.  I am glad you are taking care of yourself, hopefully with a good self-care routine.  Work with your individual therapist on this to gain insight on what can and cannot be done.  Where your expectations should be at, and so forth.  It is a lot of effort with very little in return. 

Can you remind me if you have read the "Stop Caretaking the Borderline Or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get on with Life" by Margalis Fjelstad as it has tremendous tools on managing the relationship so you don't feel so overwhelmed?

Take care with self-care.

SD

----

I've heard that calling 911 will likely get a single police officer unless I'm lucky enough to get a mental health specialist in tow.  If she started harming herself and I called 911 it would probably result in an officer showing up, by which time she may have calmed down a bit, and offering resources but that's it.  If she threatens suicide a call to 988 will result in much the same assistance.  I did call 988 that morning after she had left the house.

That will depend on which jurisdiction you are in, and how you describe the situation to the 911 operator.  If she has a gun, state this.  If she has just swallowed pills, state this.  Be honest.  911 should be called when there is an immediate threat to life/limb, where she has a method of death in hand, whatever that might be, even if it is intended for self-harm.  The more information you can give them, the more they might send  (e.g.  in addition to a police unit, they would also send a rescue unit).  Whereas, 988 will do a risk assessment and escalate it to 911 if necessary, or will talk her down from being in a 'crisis'. 

If she is thinking about self-harm and/or suicide, then dial 988 and hand her the phone.

She's said that she slapped her ex-husband once but I imagine there may be more to that story.

At this point I'm just trying to hold my ground with the single boundary I've set.  If this ends up wrecking the relationship then it was not healthy to begin with.  If she can abide that boundary then we'll see what happens next.

If possible, talk to the ex-H, you might find a new friend who is on your side at best, or he could blow you off completely.  You won't know, until you ask him.  The mere fact she hit him (and if he didn't return the hit) indicates a 50% probability she is diagnosable as BPD on that character trait alone.

I see what you wrote, and it sounds like you are starting to become 'conflicted', you will get different answers on the conflicted board, you might want to consider looking there a bit too.

Take care with self-care.

SD

[usagi]

Thanks SD.  That's a lot to digest but some good recommendations especially on the circular discussions.  I'm hesitant to talk with the ex because there is a child involved.  I wouldn't want to sour his relationship with her and end up impacting how things are going with the boy.  Right now, they more or less cooperate on co-parenting issues.  But I'll think about it.

I guess I didn't realize there was a "conflicted" board.  I'll check it out.

Good advice on responding to real and immediate threats to her or myself.

I feel like I'm doing everything I can to keep this relationship going.  In the past I've been pretty flexible with my boundaries.  She sees any deviation in attention from her as volatile to the relationship (her).  My focus right now is to try to avoid direct conversations about my hobby and supporting how she's feeling in the moment.  I like the idea of reminding her that "I'm here now focused on you".

[usagi]

Oh and I do intend on getting the book you recommended.  Thanks again for the recommendation.

I do want to stay with my partner but it seems like she really won't accept my boundaries.

[SaltyDawg]

I do want to stay with my partner but it seems like she really won't accept my boundaries.

I'd like to make one comment on boundaries.  The boundaries that you set are ones to maintain your sanity, ones that you can implement, and follow through with consequences with certain 'bad' behaviors of hers.  If you cannot implement the consequence, boundaries are not enforceable, you need to make sure you can enforce them consistently.  When you do enforce them, expect pushback from them, perhaps with an extinction burst.

If you go to the top, look at the tools menu, there is a section on boundaries with a link to a workshop on them.

Ask if you have questions, as starting them can be scary, especially if there is pushback.

Take care.

SD

[usagi]

Hi SaltyDawg,

With my hobby, they way I'm enforcing it is simply going when I say I will whether she is upset about it or not.  The other way I hold the boundary is when we are talking about the topic I keep reasserting why this is important to me and don't waver on my commitment to going.  I don't give any sort of ultimatum but just hold to my commitment.

It's been hard to do for sure.  Many many conversations on this topic that she starts.  "Why is this more important to you than me?"  I try to respond that it isn't and that I spend most all of my time with my family and highlight all the things I do for them.  Last night she asked about why am I going and then answered using my words "it's an experience that you want to have" and she seemed to accept it.  I think that was a win.

[kells76]

With my hobby, they way I'm enforcing it is simply going when I say I will whether she is upset about it or not.

That seems huge.

It sounds like you're "unhitching your wagon" from her "emotional horses". Her emotions aren't leading that part of your relationship any more. Big picture there is a possibility she may respond well (though probably she won't verbally thank you  ) to that kind of emotional leadership, where you are modeling that harmfully intense, wildly varying emotions aren't what determine decisions in your household. You are being solid and reliable by doing what you say you will do.

The other way I hold the boundary is when we are talking about the topic I keep reasserting why this is important to me and don't waver on my commitment to going.  I don't give any sort of ultimatum but just hold to my commitment.

That's great to hear that you aren't using ultimatums, and that you understand that total commitment to your choice (versus intermittent wavering) is better for your relationship long-term.

I'd be curious what might happen if you "put the ball back in her court" about bringing up your hobby.

What I mean by that is -- currently, she initiates bringing it up ("why do you love knitting more than me"), and you respond with an explanation. This is a great improvement from how it was before and you've put a lot of work in to get here 

If I'm reading correctly, she kind of harps on the same stuff over and over -- why is it more important than me, why do you want to go, why do you have to knit, etc etc etc.

What if, when she "plays the same old tune" again, instead of being on your back heel and "having to" explain, you responded with a question that put that responsibility back on her: "Babe, are you having some new feelings about this, or is there a new perspective you want me to hear?"

Something to shift the dynamic, which currently seems to be working for her -- she can bring up the exact same complaint over and over, and get engagement.

If she does indeed have new feelings about it, what some members have tried is again putting the responsibility for having that conversation on the pwBPD:
"I'd love to hear your new thoughts and feelings about me knitting. I want to be at my best and have uninterrupted time when I listen to you; would later today over coffee, or tomorrow at breakfast work better for you?"

Kicking that conversation down the road, even a few hours, can help the pwBPD return to more of a baseline and also puts the responsibility for having the conversation onto them. It's not you who wants to spend your time discussing why you like to knit -- it's her, and if it's that important to her, she will make sure to pick a time. If she can't/won't pick a time ("I don't know, you always do what you want"), you can offer to keep both times open ("No worries, I'll make sure to keep 3-4pm today and 8-9am tomorrow open for us") and then again, it's on her to do the legwork to have the discussion -- not on you.

I'm aware that this may be way, way too much for her to handle right now, so please don't feel like you have to take this as "this is what usagi has to do right now" -- you guys are making incremental changes which take a lot of work and focus and energy.

And like we chatted about earlier, setting lower, but achievable, expectations can be more successful than setting high, ideal, but unattainable ones.

I think giving the two of you ample opportunities to have successful experiences with what you're already doing (i.e., going to your hobby regardless of how she feels in the moment) is so important right now to build that healthier foundation.

So, this thought (about putting the ball back in her court to schedule time with you to tell you her new feelings about your hobby) is more putting an idea out there that you can think about -- so you know that you have some forward movement options in the future.

It's been hard to do for sure.  Many many conversations on this topic that she starts.  "Why is this more important to you than me?"  I try to respond that it isn't and that I spend most all of my time with my family and highlight all the things I do for them.  Last night she asked about why am I going and then answered using my words "it's an experience that you want to have" and she seemed to accept it.  I think that was a win.

That's fascinating. It sounds like she's internalizing the "new normal", hopefully. Did she escalate after that, or was she basically able to "talk herself down" by repeating your words?

Seems like a great example of your emotional leadership. She may actually really want emotional stability/reliability/predictability (i.e., "no matter how I feel, I know usagi will do XYZ") vs unpredictable accommodation of her momentary feelings.

...

All that to say -- as cliche as it sounds, this is a marathon, not a sprint, and there will be relapses on this journey of turning around your relationship. Relapse is a normal part of recovery, so know that even if it feels like "two steps forward, one step back", that one step back doesn't mean that your new approach isn't working or you've failed.

Really glad to hear your update.

[usagi]

Thanks Kells76,

I'll certainly think about the "putting the ball back in her court" method.  For now I am trying to stay engaged with her when she brings it up.  It seems like if I suggest we talk about something another time it makes her more frustrated.  Better to get it out now.  She has felt in the past that I'll just walk away from her when we are talking.  What actually has happened is she will be raging at me over something and I'll refuse to participate and sometimes walk away.  I think that's the fear.  Not being "heard".

It was a very amazing moment last night when she said the words I said.  She was very calm when she said it and seemed at peace with it.  She posed the question about why am I still going and then immediately answered it herself.  Then she actually did go back to her knitting =).

I realize that the challenges are not over.  I feel like our conversation yesterday was a win.  Her son is coming back to stay with us today and that usually changes the dynamic and might break her out of this loop at least for a while.

I also found out yesterday that she has lined up a job in a smaller town nearby in the state we are currently in.  It would be doing some different work and she'd have much more freedom over her hours and where she worked.  If she sticks to this, which I think she will, it'll be a benefit.  I don't think us moving to a new state would have been a good situation for her son, my step-son.  What she really needed was to not have to drive into the city everyday with all the stressors that come with it.  Plus she's really burnt out on her current job.  I think this could work out much better.  Time will tell.

Thanks again for everyone's support.  When I first suspected the BPD diagnosis I was concerned that I would have to sneak around to find a support group.  This was exactly what I needed.

Thank you...

[jaded7]

Thanks Kells76,


It was a very amazing moment last night when she said the words I said.  She was very calm when she said it and seemed at peace with it.  She posed the question about why am I still going and then immediately answered it herself.  Then she actually did go back to her knitting =).

I think this is HUGE. She had internalized something here. More than just your words....she's internalized your perspective and viewpoint, and seems to actually accept it. I'm really amazed actually.

[usagi]

Fingers crossed =)