Circular Arguments - Please share some real life examples and stories

[campbembpd]

I'm combing this site for some advice on how to handle circular arguments. Looking at JADE but I'm trying to think and practice mentally how this would work in a real life scenario. I would love to hear some examples from others. My wife of 25 years is uBPD.

A scenario might be sometimes I can sense her being 'off' that day. A little extra sensitive and snappy. My daughter may even ask what's going on with mom. My pwuBPD later pulls me into a circular discussion where I know I haven’t done anything wrong but blaming me or getting mad at me or saying she feels XYZ. She'll even say I didn't say something earlier and WHY DIDN'T I SAY THAT?" (when I did in fact say it) What should I do with those moments? part of me just felt like I just have to let her vent and get through it. I try to validate by saying things like "I understand you're very frustrated, angry, etc. I might be angry if that happened to me" without admitting I did or didn't do something that wasn't true.

Even going through that painful circular talk for hours will not resolve it and a few times we've had to break to do something else but she comes back to it with a vengence. She's said on so many terms that she has to go through that in order to feel better. She has to hear me say she's right and then when I've broken down and admitted something I didn't do just to try to end it, then another argument as to why it took so long for me to finally say what she needed me to say (abject agreement). Sometimes it can be circular arguments leading to more and when we have breaks don't seem to settle the fire if you know what I mean.

I'm looking for tools and examples that I can use for 2024. What do you do in these scenarios where your partner lies or exaggerates?? If you can't JADE then how do you say you didn't do the things or that isn't how you remember it?

Thanks all, happy new year!

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[EyesUp]

Hi campbembpd,

There are some lessons and exercises to develop skills with this, but here’s the gist:  It’s up to you to decide when to get off the merry go round. 

Easier said than done, of course.

All I can say is:  I completely recognize that “you seem upset” maneuver - like an episode of the twilight zone, I eventually learned that this statement means “I am upset” (“and I don’t know and/or don’t want to say why”).

At some point, I learned when and how to engage, because it’s not my job to fix it every single time…

As we know, it takes two to tango, so don’t tango.

That’s the reader’s digest version.

Of course, there’s lots lots more and everyone is different. 

Do you think it would be helpful if the next time you hear “you seem upset” or “why are you angry” to keep in mind that accusations are often confessions?  How would you respond differently with this in mind?

Hang in there!

[jaded7]

I'm combing this site for some advice on how to handle circular arguments. Looking at JADE but I'm trying to think and practice mentally how this would work in a real life scenario. I would love to hear some examples from others. My wife of 25 years is uBPD.

A scenario might be sometimes I can sense her being 'off' that day. A little extra sensitive and snappy. My daughter may even ask what's going on with mom. My pwuBPD later pulls me into a circular discussion where I know I haven’t done anything wrong but blaming me or getting mad at me or saying she feels XYZ. She'll even say I didn't say something earlier and WHY DIDN'T I SAY THAT?" (when I did in fact say it) What should I do with those moments? part of me just felt like I just have to let her vent and get through it. I try to validate by saying things like "I understand you're very frustrated, angry, etc. I might be angry if that happened to me" without admitting I did or didn't do something that wasn't true.

Even going through that painful circular talk for hours will not resolve it and a few times we've had to break to do something else but she comes back to it with a vengence. She's said on so many terms that she has to go through that in order to feel better. She has to hear me say she's right and then when I've broken down and admitted something I didn't do just to try to end it, then another argument as to why it took so long for me to finally say what she needed me to say (abject agreement). Sometimes it can be circular arguments leading to more and when we have breaks don't seem to settle the fire if you know what I mean.

I'm looking for tools and examples that I can use for 2024. What do you do in these scenarios where your partner lies or exaggerates?? If you can't JADE then how do you say you didn't do the things or that isn't how you remember it?

Thanks all, happy new year!

This is what you call a no-win situation, which are of course hallmarks of these relationships. I've been in MANY of them, and I would become so confused and frustrated being told what I said when I didn't say it, being told that I feel something when I don't feel it, being told what my intentions were when they weren't.

The natural reflex is to say that's not what I feel, said, intended....but they will then take that as invalidating. Then when your defending yourself against the accusations, they then shift to the next thing which also isn't true, then your off into he circle...

The only thing you can do is disengage. "I'm sorry, I love you but I can't take part in this." "I'm not going to discuss any further right now."

But even those will trigger anger and loss of control in them, and they engage more. You try to do like Johnny Depp and express love and say you're going to walk away for a little while, even say when you're coming back, and they will still be mad.

No win. No chance of it.

My ex even instituted a 'time out' rule, whenever one of us called a time out the other had to honor it. Me being a loving person and man of my word, agreed to that wholeheartedly. Although I never got dsyregulated, it was her yelling and name calling and cutting me off (honey....can I at least finish a sentence please). And the one time she called for the time-out (when she was yelling and name calling and accusing) she said I was "flooded" and we needed a timeout (I wasn't flooded, she was) so I agreed and told her that I will keep my word. Less than 30 seconds later she started in on me again. I pointed out that she called for the time out and now was going back at me....she hung up on me.

No win. Just walk away.

[campbembpd]

Thank you for the replies. I don’t wanna give up hope but there’s so much of me that just doesn’t know if there is. No win situation… that’s what I feel like it is. No good answer. No
Good solution.

I am getting to where I’m at the point of just walking away and staring I can’t discuss this but what does that mean
For when to discuss difficult things??

[EyesUp]

I am getting to where I’m at the point of just walking away and staring I can’t discuss this but what does that mean
For when to discuss difficult things??

We often walk on eggshells and defer to the pwBPD to avoid conflict.

But what does it look like to lead with open-ended questions?

When tough stuff comes up, what might happen if you lay out a short email with options?  Any chance to get a functional response?  With the added benefit of documentation?

It might be helpful to both of you…

[SaltyDawg]

Whether it is a circular argument, being accused of smirking (where I quoted myself from), word salad, gas-lighting-like behaviors, DARVO, or any other number of dysregulated conversational exchanges with my uBPDw the technique I use is, is the same for each of them...  Grey Rock... it is a method to implement my boundary of "all abuse must stop". 

I will engage, up to a point (so I cannot be accused of being avoidant) where it become dysregulated, or irrational, then I go 'grey rock' until she re-regulates, usually a sleep cycle, occasionally two sleep cycles depending on how dysregulated she becomes.

Simply put, I no longer tolerate her B.S. behaviors, and she knows it.

Not reacting frustrates a pwBPD, so she wants you to react. This sends you into justifying, this immediately shifts you on to the defensive, which she takes as validation of your guilt of whatever she desires.

waverider is right, unless, you know this, and then you can do something about it...

I get the 'smirking' accusations too - I am emotionally neutral, most of the time.  Now that she is aware of it, working with a couple's counselor, I tell the T the same thing when my uBPDw tells the T that I have this smirk.

I calmly explain 'gray rock' and will offer to revisit the topic the following morning [when she is regulated - my wife has a soft reset for her sleep cycles], and she knows the argument will end when I say this, if she pursues it, I will leave the room.  I've made a boundary where I have put myself in control on how much circular argument, word salad, I am willing to tolerate (usually 2 circles, occasionally 3 if there is enough variation in her approach).  I will not validate the invalid; I will validate the valid though.  It is quite empowering, to temporarily stonewall a borderline with gray rock when they become dysregulated.  I used to go around in circles with rage from her for hours and hours, now it is shut down in about 10 minutes before it can escalate any further.

[campbembpd]

God it's so funny, when I started this thread I wasn't in the middle of a crisis, now I am as of last night. How quickly things change. But I'm getting sucked right in! I just feel lost (is that the FOG?).

I wrote about it in a different thread. Short version is 17 year old daughter is starting a month long fast with the church to give up sugar, breads, romantic involvements, R-rated movies, and staying away from scenarios where people might be swearing, talking about sexual things. Focus on God. Wish I did that when I was 17.

My wife, pwuBPD, thinks this is way too excessive bordering on being in a cult, OCD and has blown this molehill into a mountain in my opinion. I tell her people give up for stuff for Lent, fasting, etc all teh time. It's a short window and I'm proud of my daughter for doing it. I'm not going to tell her to not do it.

My position is this isn't a big deal, she can give this up for a month and so what? That's the rub for my pwuBPD. I don't support her because I don't agree with her. She wants me to think there's something wrong with it, that it's over excessive and ultimately tell DD to not do it.

I've stated my position 40 times, stayed calm. She continues down the road - from anger - swearing at me, putting me down to more solemn, sadness: you're not the husband who used to love me, if you loved me you would support me. I told her I wasn't going to keep talking about this and was in the middle of working from home. She said she didn't care about work and I needed to take the day off to resolve this. I cancelled my meetings so basically did take the afternoon off to go around in circles.

She even sat in front of me and called 2 divorce lawyers asking for information and told our kids we were getting a divorce.

I don't share the same opinion and am holding my ground so she's escalating. I guess so far that's a step in the right direction? Usually I cave so quick and end up agreeing to stop the argument.

I keep getting pulled in to the madness! If I don't want to talk, I don't love her. But I don't love her anyway because I'm not supporting her (i.e. agreeing with her). Also, she's snipping at my daughter making passive aggressive comments. I struggle with this so it's hard to know what to tell my daughter how to handle it...

[SaltyDawg]

She even sat in front of me and called 2 divorce lawyers asking for information and told our kids we were getting a divorce.

I don't share the same opinion and am holding my ground so she's escalating. I guess so far that's a step in the right direction? Usually I cave so quick and end up agreeing to stop the argument.

I think you are right; however, she is escalating the situation beyond a 'point of no return'.  If she is actually calling divorce attorney's and getting consultations in front of you, she is demonstrating her truth in her mind to you.  You tried to call her 'bluff' and it appears not to be a bluff, as she has raised the stakes to being 'pot committed' (this is a poker/gambling term where there is too much at stake, from her perspective, to back down now) to the point where she has to follow through on her threats as she FEELS so strongly about this she has consulted with divorce attorneys and told your children of the impending divorce.

You are on the bettering thread, I must assume you want to save your marriage, this is not the way to do it (right now - there is a time and place for everything, this is neither the time nor place for this to impose this boundary).  Normally I do not recommend backing down on a boundary as it will be much harder to set in the future; however, she has set her boundary on you, and hers is the 'divorce' card if you do not comply with her demands, an ultimatum of sorts that she is willing to follow through on (mine wasn't) - this is super difficult position for you to be in as she has the 'power' right now.

What can you do to save the marriage?  My only suggestion is that you speak to her emotions only, and for now do not focus on the truth, and leave that for a therapy session.  Validate her emotions only - focus on why she feels the way that she feels and only validate her feelings.

You might want to say something along the lines of "I can see how you feel that you want to divorce me, as you have consulted attorneys in front of me and shared this with our children.  I personally feel that this will be a disaster in which we will have to split up the kids, the property, [any other reasonable observation that does not assign specific blame to your wife].  I feel we should not be so impulsive in the rush to get a divorce.  I feel it would be beneficial to wait until we are no longer as emotionally charged (triggered) over this, so I can talk to you more reasonably otherwise everyone will lose in this scenario.

Please be mindful that past behaviors of your wife, are pretty good indicators of future ones.  If she is one who follows through on her threats, this is very dangerous.  However, if she backs down with a little bit of pushback this is preferable. 



I wrote about it in a different thread. Short version is 17 year old daughter is starting a month long fast with the church to give up sugar, breads, romantic involvements, R-rated movies, and staying away from scenarios where people might be swearing, talking about sexual things. Focus on God. Wish I did that when I was 17.

My wife, pwuBPD, thinks this is way too excessive bordering on being in a cult, OCD and has blown this molehill into a mountain in my opinion. I tell her people give up for stuff for Lent, fasting, etc all teh time. It's a short window and I'm proud of my daughter for doing it. I'm not going to tell her to not do it.

My position is this isn't a big deal, she can give this up for a month and so what? That's the rub for my pwuBPD. I don't support her because I don't agree with her. She wants me to think there's something wrong with it, that it's over excessive and ultimately tell DD to not do it.

This is a balancing act, I too have a D17 - if my D17 makes good choices, I support her in those choices, as it validates her.  Fortunately my uBPDw would be 'on board' for something like this; however, yours is not!  Like I indicated above, I would validate your wife's feelings on it by saying something like "I agree with how you feel, it feels like it is bordering on occult-like control; however, I am not quite seeing it.  I think D17 has made her choice, and I do not see anything that screams occult, and all of these things appear to be healthy behaviors for D17, so I don't mind her doing it; however, I will continue to monitor the situation (to validate W's feelings) to ensure to does not become too much like an occult"  You could add, "I feel that D17 is making good choices by avoiding sexual content, ____, ____, ____, etc."  You will self-validate by citing specific facts that support your feelings (ordered), unlike your wife who modifies her facts to match her feelings (disordered).

You also could point out that other classmates of hers are having sex, smoking in the girls bathroom, and have much worse behaviors - and you think this has good behaviors even though you might not agree with some of it, but it is better than the alternative - this is another idea on how to approach the D17 issue with your wife.

Based on what you shared, the 'divorce' issue should take priority right now; however, if she brings this up, you can validate her feelings without specifically validating the facts.


I've stated my position 40 times, stayed calm. She continues down the road - from anger - swearing at me, putting me down to more solemn, sadness: you're not the husband who used to love me, if you loved me you would support me. I told her I wasn't going to keep talking about this and was in the middle of working from home. She said she didn't care about work and I needed to take the day off to resolve this. I cancelled my meetings so basically did take the afternoon off to go around in circles.

She is escalating the situation, in order to make you back down, or she could be fed up with your apparent lack of support (her perspective) and she cannot be reasoned with when she is triggered and figures you cannot be reasoned with.  Figure out a way to grey rock until she is back to baseline.  Any more than 3 times with my wife would trigger her, so I shut it down before that happens, your wife is different, you need to learn her triggers and modify it to meet your specific situation.

 
I keep getting pulled in to the madness! If I don't want to talk, I don't love her. But I don't love her anyway because I'm not supporting her (i.e. agreeing with her). Also, she's snipping at my daughter making passive aggressive comments. I struggle with this so it's hard to know what to tell my daughter how to handle it...

I agree with you; however, I am not the person with whom you need to validate your feelings and actions.

While your wife is dysregulated, you need to tone down your rhetoric with her, and support her feelings only.

Regarding your D17, validate D17's decision for the religious exercise, assuming that your wife has not raised a serious objection to it.

[campbembpd]

She even sat in front of me and called 2 divorce lawyers asking for information and told our kids we were getting a divorce.

I don't share the same opinion and am holding my ground so she's escalating. I guess so far that's a step in the right direction? Usually I cave so quick and end up agreeing to stop the argument.

I think you are right; however, she is escalating the situation beyond a 'point of no return'.  If she is actually calling divorce attorney's and getting consultations in front of you, she is demonstrating her truth in her mind to you.  You tried to call her 'bluff' and it appears not to be a bluff, as she has raised the stakes to being 'pot committed' (this is a poker/gambling term where there is too much at stake, from her perspective, to back down now) to the point where she has to follow through on her threats as she FEELS so strongly about this she has consulted with divorce attorneys and told your children of the impending divorce.

You are on the bettering thread, I must assume you want to save your marriage, this is not the way to do it (right now - there is a time and place for everything, this is neither the time nor place for this to impose this boundary).  Normally I do not recommend backing down on a boundary as it will be much harder to set in the future; however, she has set her boundary on you, and hers is the 'divorce' card if you do not comply with her demands, an ultimatum of sorts that she is willing to follow through on (mine wasn't) - this is super difficult position for you to be in as she has the 'power' right now.

She has threatened divorce more times then I can count over the past 6 years. I wish I could say she hasn't but she's announced it to the kids many many times as well. She is upping the ante by calling an office in front of me. She talked to the clerk to get the hourly rate. I know she did it to get more of a reaction from me.

You might want to say something along the lines of "I can see how you feel that you want to divorce me, as you have consulted attorneys in front of me and shared this with our children.  I personally feel that this will be a disaster in which we will have to split up the kids, the property, [any other reasonable observation that does not assign specific blame to your wife].  I feel we should not be so impulsive in the rush to get a divorce.  I feel it would be beneficial to wait until we are no longer as emotionally charged (triggered) over this, so I can talk to you more reasonably otherwise everyone will lose in this scenario.

That's good stuff... I basically said something similar but she brushes them away, she doesn't care or too bad. She's so dysregulated she really can't do any sort of logic. But I'm going to take these for future use

This is a balancing act, I too have a D17 - if my D17 makes good choices, I support her in those choices, as it validates her.  Fortunately my uBPDw would be 'on board' for something like this; however, yours is not!  Like I indicated above, I would validate your wife's feelings on it by saying something like "I agree with how you feel, it feels like it is bordering on occult-like control; however, I am not quite seeing it.  I think D17 has made her choice, and I do not see anything that screams occult, and all of these things appear to be healthy behaviors for D17, so I don't mind her doing it; however, I will continue to monitor the situation (to validate W's feelings) to ensure to does not become too much like an occult"  You could add, "I feel that D17 is making good choices by avoiding sexual content, ____, ____, ____, etc."  You will self-validate by citing specific facts that support your feelings (ordered), unlike your wife who modifies her facts to match her feelings (disordered).

You also could point out that other classmates of hers are having sex, smoking in the girls bathroom, and have much worse behaviors - and you think this has good behaviors even though you might not agree with some of it, but it is better than the alternative - this is another idea on how to approach the D17 issue with your wife.

That's a lot of what he circular argument was. I did every which way as best I could to validate her feelings. Like "I understand you're feeling concerned about it. It sounds like you're scared..." "I hear that you're scared". and similar statements. Literally snapped back sarastic responses or elevating that "YOU'RE NOT HEARING ME!"

I'm laughing right now inside because I've said this so many times. I've brought up many times how I'm happy our daughter is so involved with church and not doing what so many of her old friends are and what I was doing at 17... it wasn't good, I needed some church back then.

She is escalating the situation, in order to make you back down, or she could be fed up with your apparent lack of support (her perspective) and she cannot be reasoned with when she is triggered and figures you cannot be reasoned with.  Figure out a way to grey rock until she is back to baseline.  Any more than 3 times with my wife would trigger her, so I shut it down before that happens, your wife is different, you need to learn her triggers and modify it to meet your specific situation.

Yes! she cannot be reasoned with, there is no logical reasoning. She keeps going in laps trying to wear me down. I try to grey rock, stay flat, emotionless and that seems to upset her even more. But I guess I'm trying to figure out what my boundary needs to be for walking away. Maybe I need to walk away sooner but it is killing me to sit there for 3,4,5 hours, miss work, not sleep well because she won't give up until I give in and just say she's right and I was wrong all along. So I'm thinking through what that looks like.

[kells76]

I guess I'm trying to figure out what my boundary needs to be for walking away. Maybe I need to walk away sooner but it is killing me to sit there for 3,4,5 hours, miss work, not sleep well because she won't give up until I give in and just say she's right and I was wrong all along. So I'm thinking through what that looks like.

Here's something to ponder.

If you "participating" for 3 to 5 hours doesn't "make things better" -- then why not try participating for only 1 hour? After all, you'll likely get the same outcome.

You'd have a "bad" outcome (I use that in quotation marks, because that is more her perception than yours) whether you're there for 1 hour, or 3, or 5, or 8, so why not pick the option that's best for you?

You could even go wild and end your participation at 30 minutes  

After all, if she's going to be upset with you anyway, due to her own internal feelings, you may as well have her upset with you but get a full night's sleep, than upset with you and you've had no sleep.

...

While that's a bit of a tongue-in-cheek response, there's another part of the circular argument/long argument topic worth thinking about.

BPD can be thought of as a relational disorder. It shows up the most, in the closest relationships. Something about intimacy lays bare the disordered relating.

You could even think of it as -- the closer the person's relationship, the more the disorder can get set off.

What if you (as the person closest to her) participating longer might be inflaming things? This isn't saying it's your fault -- it's more saying, what if for her to cool down and get back to baseline, she needs some space from those most intimate relationships?

It could actually be a loving thing for you to do for her, to not participate in those circular arguments for an extended period of time. It's worth examining if maybe your presence continually reignites her extreme emotions when she's in that space.

Again -- this isn't a "whose fault is it" discussion. It's really about -- when she taxis her "circular argument plane" onto the runway and is revving her engines, are you the best person to help her in that moment?

You know her best, so there may be some window of time where you can use your empathy, validation, and argument-stopping skills and successfully turn that plane around. Past that, it might be OK for you to disengage and allow her to self-soothe.

Lots of food for thought;

kells76

[HurtAndTired]

I'm with SD on the grey rocking. I will not do the circular arguments anymore. Period. In 12 years I have sat through a lifetime (or two) of getting yelled at and I'm done. SD says he lets his pwBPD get through two or three cycles before grey rocking and that sounds reasonable. I grey rock on my uBPD wife's first repetition. If she continues to go on yelling at me for 10 minutes after I grey rock, I leave the room and lock myself in my guest bedroom (with our S2 if necessary).

My wife, like SD's (and yours apparently) has threatened divorce so often that it no longer holds any power over me. I want to stay with my wife due to our son and my religious values, but if she was really determined enough to go through with hiring a divorce lawyer and filing, I would not stop her. It would hurt my finances, but in the long run, I'd be ok. I also have enough documented material on her BPD (suicide threats, police being called on her, etc.) that I am not worried about custody of our son. I am 99.9% sure that she would never go through with it, but being so fed up with being on the BPD treadmill that I am not afraid to call her bluff has shifted the power in our relationship back to me.

My son and protecting him from mom's BPD behavior as much as possible has become the main focus of my life. It sounds like you are the same with your daughter. Kudos to you for supporting her and giving her a great example of what a strong, independent, responsible, and loving adult should look like. I hope to have my son making the same kind of great choices that your daughter is making when he is her age. You've got this! Stop letting this go on for hours. Climb off the merry-go-round. You deserve better than getting yelled at for five minutes, let alone hours.

[SaltyDawg]

She has threatened divorce more times then I can count over the past 6 years. I wish I could say she hasn't but she's announced it to the kids many many times as well. She is upping the ante by calling an office in front of me. She talked to the clerk to get the hourly rate. I know she did it to get more of a reaction from me.

You know your wife the best, even with the new escalation of calling the clerk, if you don't think she is going to be filing for divorce, by all means 'call her bluff' and maintain your boundary - I will retract my previous statement as it was based on my own experience with my own uBPDw - if my wife did something like that, she would follow through on it - that was where my mind was when I wrote my previous post, and I was just drawing a parallel to your wife, as most pwBPD almost play from the same imaginary rule book with their behavioral patterns and character traits and are extremely predictable in comparison to a normal person.

Being mindful that this is the bettering board I did not make additional comments, which I will now...

I'm with SD on the grey rocking. I will not do the circular arguments anymore. Period. In 12 years I have sat through a lifetime (or two) of getting yelled at and I'm done. SD says he lets his pwBPD get through two or three cycles before grey rocking and that sounds reasonable. I grey rock on my uBPD wife's first repetition. If she continues to go on yelling at me for 10 minutes after I grey rock, I leave the room and lock myself in my guest bedroom (with our S2 if necessary).

My wife, like SD's (and yours apparently) has threatened divorce so often that it no longer holds any power over me. I want to stay with my wife due to our son and my religious values, but if she was really determined enough to go through with hiring a divorce lawyer and filing, I would not stop her. It would hurt my finances, but in the long run, I'd be ok. I also have enough documented material on her BPD (suicide threats, police being called on her, etc.) that I am not worried about custody of our son. I am 99.9% sure that she would never go through with it, but being so fed up with being on the BPD treadmill that I am not afraid to call her bluff has shifted the power in our relationship back to me.

My son and protecting him from mom's BPD behavior as much as possible has become the main focus of my life. It sounds like you are the same with your daughter. Kudos to you for supporting her and giving her a great example of what a strong, independent, responsible, and loving adult should look like. I hope to have my son making the same kind of great choices that your daughter is making when he is her age. You've got this! Stop letting this go on for hours. Climb off the merry-go-round. You deserve better than getting yelled at for five minutes, let alone hours.

This is absolute GOLD!!![/b]  I call my wife's 'bluff' she will back down, her fear of abandonment will get the better of her every time, even though she did make a detailed plan with her therapist, and tried to put it in motion inside a couple's therapy session.  I called her bluff, even though she was dead-set on implementing it, as I told her we can seperate; however I did not agree to her terms where I was to leave the home and the kids, I told her I wasn't going to leave; however, she was free to go.

Side Note:  Being mindful that we are on the 'bettering' board, whenever a bluff of this magnitude is made, there is always the possibility, no matter how slim you think it might be there is the possibility that she will call your bluff and follow through with a divorce - this is playing out on a different thread with a different husband / wife combo, so it is a distinct possibility - this also influenced what I said in my previous post.

Going back to the bluff, like H&T, I had enough documented that it wouldn't affect the custody of the children as I had already documented her false narrative in front of a former CPS LCSW.  I have also taken several other actions to 'level the playing field' should my wife follow through with divorce.  The SWOE book by Randi Kreger tells you to take any threats of divorce very seriously.  If it has been thought of by the pwBPD, it is definitely a possibility.

"Plan for the worst; however, hope for the best".  Make sure you have a contingency plan if you do call her most serious 'bluff'.  You have to have the mindset, if she does follow through with her threat, you are okay that she does follow through on it - it took me a year and a half from the time I learned about BPD to making this a conscious possibility that I could no longer live this way, and it was okay if I let her go (in way compliant with scriptures, she has to leave) - even though I was not the one who was going to make that move as I too am religious and wanted to ensure to reverse as much emotional damage to the children as I could within that framework.

Going to the first paragraph of H&T on circular arguments, I do the 2-3 as a concession (compromise) to the couple's therapist's (that my wife and I use) suggestion in response to my wife's complaint that I was engaging long enough to hear it out fully - so I will let it play out twice, and a 3rd time if there is enough variation in the 2nd round to hear a 3rd one.  Before I put this 'boundary' in place, these would go on for an average of 2-4 hours, but could typically last 1 to 7+ hours and will involve full on yelling inches away from my face most of the time.  Now they rarely last more than 10 minutes, and on the extreme end half an hour.

Now I am going to share how the power of the relationship dynamic shifted from her to me, while the bluff in front of the therapist was a definite shift of who was in control from her to me - this is what I did to keep it going.  Once I realized my wife no longer had power over me with her divorce threats, I shifted my priority from reconnecting with her to maintaining sanity in the household.

I had learned the 'art of not giving a fu*|<' when directly interacting with my wife.

In order to protect my children D17 & S12, at the time D16 & S11.  I modelled good behavior, I also encouraged my wife to do the same - she is 'on board' most of the time, and I do manipulate the situation when she is becoming triggered (she has 'tells' prior to losing it - I learned these from the video recordings I made earlier as they are not obvious nor intuitive - and with her individual therapist she has learned of her more extreme ones; however, she is still unaware of the more nuanced ones.  I also took advantage of the situation by encouraging my children to  participate in as many extracurricular activities that they were interested in.  Play dates, and so forth to get them out of the house, to observe other families having a healthy interaction and relationships with others.  Now that I am (medically) retired, I have the time to do this for my family, also the reduced income is less of an incentive for my wife to divorce me.

If you have more questions, please ask.

Take care.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

campbembpd,

   I haven't heard from you in a few days time, I am just checking to make sure that you are okay and if there are any new developments.

SD

[campbembpd]

campbembpd,

   I haven't heard from you in a few days time, I am just checking to make sure that you are okay and if there are any new developments.

SD

Hey, Salty thx for the reach out.

It’s not as explosive as it was, but It’s definitely touch and go. we had a couples session with our therapist the other day. He talked about how working on my codependency is a work in progress and it won’t feel good. After that my wife basically said, if this is what working on my codependency looks like she doesn’t want any of it. She said I was cold, caring, and wouldn’t support her. I had a flat expression, true. Also, I wasn’t supporting her which in her mind means going along with what she wanted me to do. Then she started bringing God into it and saying that the wife needs to be above the children and I should be unconditionally support, her, etc. etc. .

Last night she even asked me who I would choose her or my therapist. I said therapy is very important to me and I said it would be very upsetting in a little disturbing if she really wanted me to stop therapy. She said no but if this is splitting up our marriage, then maybe you need a different therapist.

I said I’ve been working with this therapist for a year (as she has) and I don’t intend to leave him. And I brought up the fact that she did push me quitting another therapist three or four years ago. She said she doesn’t remember doing that. She did, I had a therapist I really liked and we both saw her together a few times. But my wife said the therapist was on my side and told me she didn’t want me seeing her anymore. Interestingly, that therapist also suggested to me that it sounded like my wife had cluster B traits.

Now things are just tense. We actually went out for the day today to get a change of scenery and had a really good time overall  but at the end there was uncomfortable tension in the air. She had five or six drinks so it was probably influencing her. But on the way home, she started making comments, little digs. Putting me on the defense. Saying things like she pays for going out more than I do, which is absolutely false. I am responsible right now for pain 100% of the bills in the household. Even though she is well educated and could work, she will not. She works only part time at a private practice so she basically has spending money and can make her car payment. We’re supposed to see a financial counselor, but keep putting it off because we’re in such a bad place. I’m actually not sure we will survive the financial counseling. i’m not sure if it’s part of the BPD or a co-occurring disorder, but she thinks we should live like the Rockefellers and she really has no concept of money and how much things cost. We continue to go into debt and use a credit card. And I just let it continue because of my codependency. i’ve tried to tackle it before but it just goes in a circle I’m not treating her like she needs to be treated or whisking her away. For example, we went out Friday night. I took her out and spent over $200 on dinner and buying her a little gift. Saturday she was acting like a petulant two-year-old because we didn’t have any plans She says the weekends are the worst for her to just sit around., and that’s been something she’s been like for the last 20 years. It’s like we can go out and spend a few hundred bucks on a night (which we really can’t afford, we have huge credit card balances) and then she doesn’t truly understand that we shouldn’t be going out and doing that again night after night. She’s mad because I haven’t planned something. And even when I did suggest an activity, it wasn’t good enough. She said she expected something grander.

I’m trying not to get into it and just went for a 30 minute walk.

[ForeverDad]

It’s not as explosive as it was, but It’s definitely touch and go. we had a couples session with our therapist the other day. He talked about how working on my codependency is a work in progress and it won’t feel good. After that my wife basically said, if this is what working on my codependency looks like she doesn’t want any of it. She said I was cold, caring, and wouldn’t support her. I had a flat expression, true. Also, I wasn’t supporting her which in her mind means going along with what she wanted me to do. Then she started bringing God into it and saying that the wife needs to be above the children and I should be unconditionally support, her, etc. etc.

I recall when my son was barely out of toddler age that I expressed my concerns to his pediatrician.  He said he could recommend some counselors.  My now-ex immediate retorted she had the Bible!  Sadly, being religious does not prevent someone from needing practical therapy.  To my knowledge she's never sought therapy and, no surprise, she's been my Ex for over 15 years.

And yes, there was a year near the end of the marriage where I decided to apologize for any reason whenever she demanded.  It didn't fix anything.  She would even demand I rephrase my apology to suit her, even multiple times.

About apologies, be very careful you don't apologize for doing something wrong especially if there might be legal consequences.  For example, never apologize for a demand claiming that you had hurt her.  However, so far as I know, no court would find you guilty if you apologized for her feeling you had hurt her.  Feelings are intangible and courts don't deal with feelings.

Years ago there was a phrase used here - I don't know why it faded away - that our adult relationships were "chosen" relationships but the parent-child connection is "unchosen".  Maybe there's a reason we don't say that these days, but it makes sense, right?  The children will always be our children even after they've grown but our marriages, those can fail and then be in the "ex" category.

Last night she even asked me who I would choose her or my therapist. I said therapy is very important to me and I said it would be very upsetting in a little disturbing if she really wanted me to stop therapy. She said no but if this is splitting up our marriage, then maybe you need a different therapist.

Clearly, she doesn't want the dynamics of the relationship to change.  She likes her comfort zone of being aggressive and you on the defensive.

I have another thought to express but I'll post it to your other post on the Conflicted board.

[SaltyDawg]

campbembpd,

I'm glad to hear things have settled down a bit for you. 

It’s not as explosive as it was, but It’s definitely touch and go. we had a couples session with our therapist the other day. He talked about how working on my codependency is a work in progress and it won’t feel good. After that my wife basically said, if this is what working on my codependency looks like she doesn’t want any of it. She said I was cold, caring, and wouldn’t support her. I had a flat expression, true. Also, I wasn’t supporting her which in her mind means going along with what she wanted me to do. Then she started bringing God into it and saying that the wife needs to be above the children and I should be unconditionally support, her, etc. etc. .

I find working on my own codependency is generally a positive experience; however, your pwBPD, will experience it as a loss of control for her, and it will not feel good at all for her, as she is losing out on previous behaviors that she has benefited from at your expense.

I still care for my wife, it is just not every waking hour of every day while she gives back less than an hour per week (yes, it got that bad, I kept a log on two different occasions for an entire week each time measuring her two love languages and my top two love languages).  I have modified my behaviors to match her level of input, initially taking 4 hours per day to do self-care (knee rehab, etc. and this prompted a suicide attempt by her).  Since effort cannot be quantified, I use a measurement of time, she gives 15 hours in a week to the relationship, I will give her at least 15 hours back, if not more so I cannot be accused of not giving her enough, my target is a 60/40 to 67/33 ratio, instead of a 100/1 to 200/1 ratio.

There is actually a program called marriagebuilders (.com) by Dr. Harley that quantifies and would be very good for couple's therapy for a borderline, a former dBPD-T (a therapist who told me she is a borderline) recommended it to me, it has no references to BPD; however, the principles are very borderline friendly, and if followed by both people in couple's therapy, it will work.

Dr. Harley's program is based on religious principles, and has mostly removed religion from it.  If you are looking for other Christian based counseling specific to PD's - I have found https://newportbeachchristiancounseling.com/articles/exploring-personality-disorders-from-a-christian-perspective/.

The old testament book of Hosea describes what appears to be a Borderline relationship with a minor prophet, and there are many other examples of Cluster-B type behaviors contained in the Bible.

In the bible you can find scriptures, especially if they are taken out of context to say anything you want.  Let me know if you want to counter some of your wife's arguments with scripture, as mine attempted to do that with me as well, I used the same scriptures she was using it; however, I expanded it by several verses to put it into context, and she got extremely upset when I did this - this will put her on the defensive, and may not be the best thing to do right now.  Just be knowledgeable that what your wife is saying is taking scripture out of context and twisting it to her benefit.

I will point you to a set of scriptures that will initially support your wife's position, until you read the last verse, then it will support yours for your child's.  Colossians 3:18-21, with particular attention to verse 21 and another passage that is very similar to Ephesians 5:21 to 6:4 with particular attention to verse 4.  It is important for a child to honor both of their parents; however, it is also the parent's responsibility not to embitter the child.  I personally use these scriptures for my own personal guidance.


Last night she even asked me who I would choose her or my therapist. I said therapy is very important to me and I said it would be very upsetting in a little disturbing if she really wanted me to stop therapy. She said no but if this is splitting up our marriage, then maybe you need a different therapist.

She has offered up her feelings and perspective.  Perhaps in your next session, bring up this very topic (have a prepared list how it is helping the marriage using "I" statements on how you feel it is helping).  Ask her to list how it is destroying the marriage, then make your statement on how you feel it is helping, without specifically accusing her of anything, being critical or putting her directly on defensive - your words will still be triggering, but not to the degree if you were directly accusing her.  Then let the therapist sort it out, and he will likely focus on her issues with you (to make her felt heard).  It is important not to validate the invalid when your therapist does this - most have little experience when the neurotypical (sane) person pushes back, as most are complacent.

I would not recommend stopping therapy.  I have been told not to visit this site, and the current couple's-T that my wife has chosen in the capacity of 'flying monkey sided with my wife, so I have taken it underground, and I am continuing to do so as my own therapist approves of this.  This site is one of many resources in my arsenal in managing my pwBPD to meet biblical principles.


I said I’ve been working with this therapist for a year (as she has) and I don’t intend to leave him. And I brought up the fact that she did push me quitting another therapist three or four years ago. She said she doesn’t remember doing that. She did, I had a therapist I really liked and we both saw her together a few times. But my wife said the therapist was on my side and told me she didn’t want me seeing her anymore. Interestingly, that therapist also suggested to me that it sounded like my wife had cluster B traits.

Cluster-B traits are very easy to spot, once you know what to look for.  My own therapist, who trains therapist for a living has indicated and validated my observations.


Now things are just tense. We actually went out for the day today to get a change of scenery and had a really good time overall  but at the end there was uncomfortable tension in the air. She had five or six drinks so it was probably influencing her. But on the way home, she started making comments, little digs. Putting me on the defense. Saying things like she pays for going out more than I do, which is absolutely false. I am responsible right now for [paying] 100% of the bills in the household.

You know this is not true, so don't validate that she pays for going out.  Try to ignore this, and perhaps validate that it is her idea that you go out more often than you do.  Also alcohol will only make this a bit worse - perhaps deflect, and say I am willing to talk about this when we are not so buzzed.


Even though she is well educated and could work, she will not. She works only part time at a private practice so she basically has spending money and can make her car payment. We’re supposed to see a financial counselor, but keep putting it off because we’re in such a bad place.

Impulsive spending, what you have described is part of the symptom "Impulsivity in ≥ 2 areas that could harm themselves (eg, unsafe sex, binge eating, reckless driving)" - while impulsive spending is not specifically listed, it is generally accepted as one of traits in determining if this symptom is part of the diagnosis in addition to at least one other impulsive behavior.  Personally, I am rather fortunate, as my wife is likely comorbid with OCPD (baseline, non-triggered behaviors) too, which is characterised by "Miserly Spending", just the opposite of impulsive spending so they kind of cancel each other out, but impulsive spending is there too, just not as much of it, but when it happens they are doozies.  However, my previous relationship in the late 1990's, also a BPD/NPD combo, spent on stuff she wanted, at the expense of taxes, food, car payments, etc. and eventually lost everything some 15 months after she did her most recent discard on me which I made into her final one.


I’m actually not sure we will survive the financial counseling. i’m not sure if it’s part of the BPD or a co-occurring disorder, but she thinks we should live like the Rockefellers and she really has no concept of money and how much things cost. We continue to go into debt and use a credit card. And I just let it continue because of my codependency. i’ve tried to tackle it before but it just goes in a circle I’m not treating her like she needs to be treated or whisking her away. For example, we went out Friday night. I took her out and spent over $200 on dinner and buying her a little gift.

I will validate, impulsive spending is part of being BPD see my previous comments on it.  This is something that my previous uBPD/uNPD/+exgf wanted and expected of me.  I was her 'gravy train' 'sugar daddy' (even though she was 4 years older than me) at the time, and would use me to get what she wanted, with no consideration for what she was neglecting.


Saturday she was acting like a petulant two-year-old because we didn’t have any plans She says the weekends are the worst for her to just sit around., and that’s been something she’s been like for the last 20 years. It’s like we can go out and spend a few hundred bucks on a night (which we really can’t afford, we have huge credit card balances) and then she doesn’t truly understand that we shouldn’t be going out and doing that again night after night. She’s mad because I haven’t planned something. And even when I did suggest an activity, it wasn’t good enough. She said she expected something grander.

Same here for the ex from >2 decades ago - her cheating on me twice plus her spending pretty much sealed her fate that her discard of me resulted in my terminating the relationship with her especially in light of two verifiable and admitted to cheating attempt on me.


I’m trying not to get into it and just went for a 30 minute walk.

This sounds like good self-care, and de-escalation - just be sure when you leave to go walk, tell her when you will be back, add a few minutes so she doesn't get wound up with you being gone for too long.

Once again, thank you for your update.  Keep coming back.  Ask questions.

Take care.

SD