Pressure on SD17 to manage Mom's house: part 1

[kells76]

Bit of background and links to past threads here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=355612.0

A few weekends ago, we were with the kids (SD15 & SD17) and did our "early Christmas" out of town. Near the end of the weekend, it looked like SD17 was crying, so I asked her if she wanted to talk about anything or just wanted some space, and she wanted space. She did end up talking to H, though, and opened up a lot about what's weighing on her.

A few months ago, she bought herself plane tickets to visit a friend out of the country for 3 months this year. That's coming up soon. When she let H and I know, she asked what we thought about it, and we were both very positive -- I mean, she's going to be 18 at that point, so it's less about "We give you permission" and more about "Sounds fun, I bet you'll figure it out and have a great time, let us know if you need anything".

She told H that she does a lot for the adults at Mom's house; not only task/chore stuff, but she said something like: it's a chaotic and high conflict environment and she does a lot of peacekeeping/mediation for people there. H asked how her relationship was with SD15 and she said it's good, so H and I are assuming that she is trying to manage Mom/Stepdad conflicts. (The kids have a younger brother at Mom's house who is 10, it sounds like both of them have a good relationship with him, so I doubt he's the high conflict person  )

H reassured her that we are so glad she is going on the trip, and that even though some parts of it might be hard, it's really a good thing. They hugged while she cried.

I didn't overhear this at the time, but heard some snippets, so I brought it up with my T last week. As we were talking about it, I mentioned a couple of other things to her -- last year, SD17 had been having serious back issues. We've supported her trying PT, back braces, and chiro in the past, but then she mentioned that her mattress at Mom's house was broken, so H bought her a new one, pulled her old one out and took it to the dump, and installed the new mattress. What didn't hit me at the time, that hit me later, was that in the past, Mom would've found out about it and sent a scathing email about "how dare you do that, we were just about to get SD17 a new one, I can't believe you didn't even ask me or coordinate, she wanted to pick one out with me and not with you". But it was radio silence -- no disparagement from either Mom or Stepdad, which is... uncommon.

I also mentioned that there had been a serious rat problem at Mom's for a long time (like months to half a year) and that SD17 told us she was sometimes afraid to go to sleep there, because she was afraid a rat might get on her. And then a few weeks ago, SD15 brought up something about a frayed extension cord she was using, and SD17 was like "you're going to start a fire with it", and they both played it off as kind of funny. We've also heard stories in the past couple years about how "the smoke alarm at Mom's was beeping and driving all of us crazy, so Stepdad tore it off the wall and threw it" and the kids, when telling it, would play it off as "how funny and crazy is that". [Fortunately, my B-I-L, who the kids like, kind of called them out on that one -- you need a smoke alarm and that isn't funny].

SD15 had also been "hinting" to us that she'd like lunch money, and when she did that at first, I kind of brushed it off -- OK, you're saying you want that, but your school has free lunches, and you can bring something from Mom's -- and she'd say things like "I don't like carrying a lunch in my bag, and the school lunches are gross."

And we had this whole issue a couple of weekends ago where SD15 had taken her space heater from our house to Mom's house "because it's cold in my room at Mom's", so I tried to be like "well, let's make sure to pick it up and bring it here so you can be warm here," but she pushed back with "it's too much hassle, I don't want to bring it back and forth" and I didn't want a fight so I dropped it.

Anyway, I was kind of talking about all those things with my T, and she brought up mandatory reporting. She said that functioning beds and heat in rooms are bare minimums, and she was asking more about the rats. She said that for her, even though she is a MR, she doesn't automatically report as a knee-jerk thing, as she understands that reporting can sometimes make things worse in a family dynamic, but she is open to making a report so it doesn't come back on me.

But it was the first time someone had brought that up, and looking back, it's been a string of things, not all at once, but over time -- SD17 got badly burned (at least 2nd degree) back in ~2015 or so when she was allowed to jump over lit fireworks. They were on a camping trip at a lake (but not backcountry, more like ~15 min drive to a hospital), and instead of Mom & Stepdad taking her to get medical treatment, they stayed... and let her swim. H was furious when he found out. At the time, even SD17 was laughing it off (she has taken the role of "the hero", "the tough one", etc), but weirdly, that topic came up with us and the kids this past weekend, and SD15 was sharing that she felt really scared seeing that happen -- I'd never heard that before.

So there's the burn, and then 1.5 years ago when Mom just took off and SD17 had to take care of the house, and the rats, and the smoke alarm, and the extension cord, and the bed, and the heater, and now SD15 isn't brushing her teeth and I have no idea when the kids have last been to the dentist. It's all these things that in the moment seem like a one-off problem and now it's this long term pattern.

My T and I talked more about the heater issue, and while at the time I was frustrated -- my ideal belief is that Mom takes care of things at Mom's house and Dad takes care of things at Dad's house, i.e., we can have strong boundaries -- I get now that SD15 is just trying to get her needs met and is doing whatever she can to make that happen. So it probably makes perfect sense to her to take "our" heater to Mom's house. What I'd wanted to say was something like: "Wow, your room is cold at Mom's? You made sure to tell her, right? Because the only reason she wouldn't take care of you, is just if she didn't know? So make sure to tell her you need a heater, and she will take care of it." I really, really, really didn't want us to be going down the road of "well Dad has money and Mom doesn't, so Dad is just greedy and stingy if he won't buy me a heater for Mom's house too". I don't want another argument about "we were so poor with Mom that she wouldn't eat so that we could" [this is likely Mom's framing of her heroic victimhood to the kids].

But we don't get that life or that setup. What we have is a family structure where the kids are not getting basic needs met, and so for H and I to take a rigid, boundaries-driven approach, will likely alienate us from SD15. My T encouraged me to think of this less as enabling and more as: these are minor children with basic needs, and it will be a positive thing for them to know and trust that whatever's going on, if there is a safety/health need, Dad will take care of it -- so, to take a "problem solving/needs meeting" approach, regardless of who "should" be responsible.

After that, I followed up with H to ask him what he and SD17 had talked about on our Christmas trip, and that's when he filled me in on what SD17 said, and I shared with him what my T said, and we got on the same page about focusing on meeting the kids' needs and trying to encourage them to share those needs openly, so that having needs isn't some secret thing you have to take care of yourself, but something where we can all come together and support each other with no secrets.

[end of part 1 due to length; continued in part 2:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357389.0 ]

[Turkish]

She sounds like she's definitely being parentified. If SD17 were the only child, I'd "read her in" on what's really going on, but it sounds really delicate and you're at a point where she kinda of Trusts you.

I used to have pet rats, but feral rats? Gross. I'd buy her a shock trap. They work better than the snap traps and glue I tried a few years ago when I had a mouse in the house. One trap also took care of the Warren that started under my back porch. It caught 1 per day and then they were gone.

The frayed electrical cord is a clear shock and fire hazard. I'm surprised that the T didn't mention that.

[livednlearned]

Oh wow. The cortisol level in those kids must be pretty high, like, all the time.

H and I lived in a rental for 18 months that was rodent infested and it took me months after living in our new home (no rats) to be able to walk into the kitchen to see if anything was scurrying across the counters. It's the kind of thing that makes people feel vigilant even when you don't see them.

What's really distressing is that the girls are laughing things off -- that seems like learned behavior, especially for SD17 whose been raised to think of herself as wise beyond her years.

Do you feel reassured by how the T responded?

No wonder SD17 wants to get away for a while 

I totally get the high wire act of remaining calm and neutral so they continue to share things with you. Like Turkish said, it shows that they trust you. Do you get the sense that they're trying to get your input so they can decide what's up? Or does it seem more like it spills out casually? I don't know if it's possible to tell the difference.

My stepkids were very very careful about exposing what was going on at BPD mom's home. (Weirdly, SS24 also had a Broken Mattress Issue.) And they also live in filth, like dried dog feces around the house level filth. I think feigning indifference while pointing out obvious safety issues was the kind of long-game approach that helped de-alienate them a bit.

What do you think might be going on with BPD mom not making a fuss that H intervened?

Also curious if you'll help SD17 come home if she feels like her 3-month trip isn't working out?

[kells76]

She sounds like she's definitely being parentified. If SD17 were the only child, I'd "read her in" on what's really going on, but it sounds really delicate and you're at a point where she kinda of Trusts you.

Yeah. My concern is that now that she's past the good feelings of letting it all out to us, she feels afraid of having said too much and cycles back to a comfortable place of "both sides-ing" and "well there are problems at your house too", as a way to regulate.

I don't know if she tells SD15 about these talks she has with H and I.

I'll think about putting the ball in her court, asking something like "so this stuff isn't happening out of nowhere and it isn't random, there is a reason and explanation for that dynamic, if you're interested in hearing my perspective on what's going on I'll be happy to share with you".

But I'm not truly a neutral person in the family structure, so SD17 getting "read in" on what's going on seems contingent on her getting into therapy. Which she's open to -- at least, she's made a passing comment about how if she won the lottery, she'd spend some of it on "5 years of therapy". 1.5 years ago, when she was kind of letting on about Stepdad's (emotional?) affair --> relationship with a family friend, I offered to help her find a T, but maybe she needs a reminder.

I used to have pet rats, but feral rats? Gross. I'd buy her a shock trap. They work better than the snap traps and glue I tried a few years ago when I had a mouse in the house. One trap also took care of the Warren that started under my back porch. It caught 1 per day and then they were gone.

The kids were open about when the rats were a problem and have said that it's resolved now. I should probably double check with them.

The frayed electrical cord is a clear shock and fire hazard. I'm surprised that the T didn't mention that.

I honestly can't remember if I told the T or not. I think I did but it's kind of a blur.

[kells76]

What's really distressing is that the girls are laughing things off -- that seems like learned behavior, especially for SD17 whose been raised to think of herself as wise beyond her years.

Yeah, I think you're on to something with it being learned behavior. Stepdad has many strong NPD traits, so the kids might be copying his "I'm above the rules" approach -- "safety issues are for the dirt people, we're cloud people and are uniquely protected by my amazingness from having to be lame and boring like the normies who wear seatbelts and have smoke alarms".

So I hadn't thought about this for a while, but >15 years ago Stepdad was more involved with the small subcommunity that H and I are part of. There was some flexibility with using a shared space to give presentations/have meetings/hang out, and this one night he actually gave a presentation about how he and his brother had survived a motorcycle crash, and if I remember correctly, he basically said "God won't let me die" or something very NPD about his exalted, special, unique status.

Anyway, looking back, I wonder now if that was the only way for the kids to bring this stuff up -- like, some part of them needed to say what was happening, but it would be unsafe to see it as actually dangerous, so as long as they minimized, then that was how they could share.

SD17 does now want help with problemsolving safety issues there. It's a big 180.

Do you feel reassured by how the T responded?

I don't know yet. We're meeting again today and I'm going to update her on the convo that SD17 and I had. I think I'm still processing that mandatory reporting is even on the table now.

I appreciate that she realizes that using existing systems doesn't always make things better in certain family structures.

I totally get the high wire act of remaining calm and neutral so they continue to share things with you. Like Turkish said, it shows that they trust you. Do you get the sense that they're trying to get your input so they can decide what's up? Or does it seem more like it spills out casually? I don't know if it's possible to tell the difference.

I think it's been so many years of "training" myself to stay nonreactive to anything they say, that it's hard for me to pivot to examine their motivations. Kind of like -- it doesn't matter why they say this crazy thing, what matters is that I stay chill about it. My sense is that SD15 spills stuff without really putting together how an adult will see it, though as she gets older she is saying less. I wouldn't have said in the past that the kids wanted our input, but now it's possible that SD17 does.

My stepkids were very very careful about exposing what was going on at BPD mom's home. (Weirdly, SS24 also had a Broken Mattress Issue.) And they also live in filth, like dried dog feces around the house level filth. I think feigning indifference while pointing out obvious safety issues was the kind of long-game approach that helped de-alienate them a bit.

Can you talk more about what that looked like?

What do you think might be going on with BPD mom not making a fuss that H intervened?

I think she's pivoted her Target Of Blame to be Stepdad (and possibly his girlfriend) and is completely absorbed in her own feelings of victimization in that dynamic, to the total exclusion of (a) blaming H for caring about the kids and (b) focusing on the kids' needs. H and I saw this for a while but now SD17 is expressing it as that the adults at Mom's house "have different priorities" than getting groceries that the kids will eat, etc.

Also curious if you'll help SD17 come home if she feels like her 3-month trip isn't working out?

Had not thought about that, thank you for raising the issue. I'll chat with H -- I think we'll be on the same page that we'll offer a return flight as a safety measure.

[livednlearned]

I wonder now if that was the only way for the kids to bring this stuff up -- like, some part of them needed to say what was happening, but it would be unsafe to see it as actually dangerous, so as long as they minimized, then that was how they could share.

Or it could be that their critical thinking skills are getting sharper? "BPD mom/NPD stepdad say I'm a purple unicorn but when I think about it, my skin isn't purple and I don't have a horn. They also say unicorns are real but no one else seems to think that." Maybe they're putting stuff in front of you to see how the other adults in their lives respond. Kind of like, "Haha, here's a story about a group of purple unicorns that I hung out with."

SS24 seems to be doing this more with us now that he's warming up to H after a protracted alienation campaign.

Can you talk more about what that looked like?

It has been easier for me to feign indifference, although I'm probably the one more alarmed (between me and H). He's resigned himself to things in ways I haven't.

Sometimes I feign indifference directly, like if SS24 brings up dog feces in the house. "Huh. I remember you said BPD mom was sick a lot this winter. I wonder if there's a connection. I think even fumes can make people sick, or maybe it's cats I'm thinking of."

Other times, like if SD29 tells us something, we'll randomly bring up a related anecdote and work it into conversation with SS24. "The house at the end of our block caught fire and they didn't have working smoke alarms. They had to break the window on the second story and jump out because there was too much smoke by the time they realized what was happening. He broke his leg and she broke both arms. Crazy, right? Hey, we should check our smoke alarms -- I have it on my calendar that we checked them this time last year."

Real casual  

BPD mom set up this weird dynamic -- I've witnessed it in action, and I think it goes to the heart of immaturity that can go along with BPD behaviors -- where she instructs the kids to do the exact opposite of what H recommends, even if it's bad for them, and even if it's bad for her.

After the divorce she got her half of the 401K and immediately went out and bought a luxury SUV and moved to one of the most expensive cities in the country with virtually no work experience after being a stay at home mom for almost two decades. She apparently told the kids she bought the car as two middle fingers to H. Real clever lady.

The problem is that the kids have a bit of that in them, maybe even more than a bit, but less than when I met them. When all three kids visited for Christmas one year, H gave everyone a heads up that it was time to get ready if they wanted to get to the movie theater and get a good seat. I can't remember how old SS24 was at the time, maybe 17? 18? but he whispered to SD26 (20?) to pretend they didn't hear them and they both giggled. I wasn't going, but I remember saying, "Don't you want to get a good seat?" SS24 said, "Yes, but it's funny making him mad." I said, "Huh. I never liked sitting in the front row. It's so hard to see when the screen is that close."

So feigning indifference extends to those moments. It doesn't bother me if they don't get a good seat, but ... don't they want a good seat?

Then I give a quick shrug and move on to other things. I don't think many people are in their lives pointing out the obvious, that BPD mom doesn't just set a bad example, she actively undermines what's in their best interest.

I'm guessing you might already be doing this kind of thing by being chill? There aren't a whole lot of lanes open to us as co-parents or step parents when there's alienation going on   At least if the goal is to help the kids come to their own conclusions about things.

Had not thought about that, thank you for raising the issue. I'll chat with H -- I think we'll be on the same page that we'll offer a return flight as a safety measure.

Or something else we do is offer extra $$ (we do this mostly to SD29, who is the most adventurous of the 3) to buy refundable, modifiable tickets. And we tell her that if she's ever driving and starts to feel tired on a long road trip, we'll pay for a hotel room. SD29 is the kind of person who goes to Nicaragua when there are level 3 travel advisories   so we also pay $$ to make sure she has international cell service.

I know if my own parents had said, "We'll pay the difference on a ticket that doesn't get you into Foreign Train Station at Midnight" or "Here's money for a hotel room if you ever need it in a pinch" I probably would've been conflicted about "you don't think I can do this on my own" and "omg thank you because I'm a bit scared and this makes me feel safe."