Empathy for BPD

[BigEasyHeart]

For me personally, the lack of closure is related to just not knowing what was going on in my ex's head. So, I tried to imagine what it might be like to be my ex in a relationship. I'll never know for sure what was going on, but given what I now know I think it's very likely she would be in constant turmoil much of the time. Having to convince herself each day that this is the person she should be with, then feeling unworthy of being loved by this (or any) person, then fearing this person will leave her and she would be utterly alone, then feeling she was putting in too much effort and not getting her needs met in return, then feeling hopelessly trapped, then raging anger, and on and on and on.

It must be truly horrible to live life like that.

[Pook075]

I've received some closure in my failed marriage and what you said is essentially how they feel.  My wife was always looking for something in life to fulfill her because she couldn't be open and vulnerable with me.  So she'd pull away to avoid getting hurt, which made her even more depressed, which made her even more distant, which made her even more hurt.  It was like an endless emotional slide that she simply couldn't get off of and she blames 100% of that on me for not being more loving.

What I wished she could see was that I can't be more loving when you shut me out...but her mind can't even comprehend that some of this (almost all of this) could be her own fault.  The only way she could justify walking away was if I was a horrible, emotionally abusive man that didn't care about her at all, so she spend years refining that narrative in her mind.  And if I did anything that worked against that narrative, then it had to be a lie or some desperate attempt to trick her.

I don't think I could have fully healed (at least this quickly) without understanding her mindset.  Because when you look at it from the lens that I shared above, she was searching for anything that could replace some of the pain she felt.  For people without BPD, you apologize and forgive...that's how marriage works.  But that was never an option for my wife because she couldn't be vulnerable, she couldn't risk opening up to me and being rejected.  So she just steadily became more depressed over the years and hiding everything from everyone.

Truthfully, it's heartbreaking...I can't imagine what she went through.

My wife called a few days ago on the phone and asked if she could stop by and use my bathroom.  I said yes, of course.  So she did her business and when she came out, she saw that I had stuff out to take down the Christmas tree.  She said that she had to leave but kept looking through the tree, talking about different ornaments and the memories tied to them.  It was pleasant, to co-exist as friends and just be happy together, to smile and laugh and be present.

Maybe 10 minutes later, my wife went to leave for the 5th or 6th time and it was the first time I actually stopped her by saying, "You know, I am so glad that you're happy in life right now.  You've found yourself and it's great to see."  My wife stopped and stood there, looking down at the ground...almost if she 'caught herself' being happy and content in our kitchen.  She appeared confused about what to say, so I told her that I loved her and I'm glad we're friends once again. 

She said that she can't say the same back to me, and I was surprised that hearing that didn't hurt me.  I guess it's because I now understand how incredibly hurt she was (by my actions and hers) and how she'll never be able to heal from it completely.  It's heartbreaking to be honest, because we'll divorce next month and I'll move on with my life.  A part of her will always live in the past though in the worst moments of our marriage, even though the good outweighed the bad 100-1.

BPD sucks and it's not fair for anyone involved.  My wife is clearly not a monster nor a victim, she's just stuck in her own head and doesn't know how to let go of things she has no business carrying.  Understanding that allows me to love her as a person and I genuinely wish her the best in life...I'll always be one of her biggest fans.

[tina7868]

Hey BigEasyHeart, thanks for posting this topics  . It offers a perspective that makes me feel compassionate, which in turn, interestingly, helps me let go.

Maybe 10 minutes later, my wife went to leave for the 5th or 6th time and it was the first time I actually stopped her by saying, "You know, I am so glad that you're happy in life right now.  You've found yourself and it's great to see."  My wife stopped and stood there, looking down at the ground...almost if she 'caught herself' being happy and content in our kitchen.  She appeared confused about what to say, so I told her that I loved her and I'm glad we're friends once again.

She said that she can't say the same back to me, and I was surprised that hearing that didn't hurt me.

It was truly thoughtful for you to say that, Pook. I imagine that, even if she didn`t reciprocate, it meant something to your wife to hear that. The fact that you weren`t hurt also shows a lot of growth on your part.

You both really inspire me.

[seekingtheway]

I agree, taking the compassionate stance is where the healing is for me too - as long as I can learn to also hold my boundaries within that compassion and still put me first - this is where I always want to sit.

I can't imagine having all of that inner turmoil, the chaos and pain of it would be overwhelming, and they didn't ask for this debilitating condition. I can't imagine much worse than being conditioned to need and crave love so desperately, but not be able to let it in when it's right there in front of you, and instead hurt people and forever feel shame over it.

There's a place for the anger and hurt, but there's also a place for compassion and understanding. It's just a really awful twist that the people who want to love them and be close to them are the people they have to push away with their behaviour...

My ex has a lot of awareness over his actions and how they hurt others and push them away, but just doesn't know how to change it. It does actually break my heart. At the end of the day I know that I can go and find a healthy, loving and supportive relationship if I want one, but he might never get to experience that, although it's the one thing he wants above anything else.

[jaded7]

For me personally, the lack of closure is related to just not knowing what was going on in my ex's head. So, I tried to imagine what it might be like to be my ex in a relationship. I'll never know for sure what was going on, but given what I now know I think it's very likely she would be in constant turmoil much of the time. Having to convince herself each day that this is the person she should be with, then feeling unworthy of being loved by this (or any) person, then fearing this person will leave her and she would be utterly alone, then feeling she was putting in too much effort and not getting her needs met in return, then feeling hopelessly trapped, then raging anger, and on and on and on.

It must be truly horrible to live life like that.

I can see that, yet......the explosive anger, the lying, the truly horrible name-calling and put-downs, the shaming, the gaslighting (which is absolutely horrible emotional abuse), the taking advantage of a good heart, and on and on.

In our last conversation, I was really clear on the lying and gaslighting, and I certainly heard the extremely personal put-downs and mocking and yelling.

I said to her "honey, I know that sometimes when we're angry it's because we don't feel seen and heard...I want you to know that I love you and hear you".

More attacking, greater anger.

She once told an interviewer about how she had cPTSD and it made her unable to vulnerable, and it causes problems in her interpersonal relationships. She never told ME that, never acknowledged for what is horrible emotional, verbal and psychological abuse. Never apologized for the name calling and explosions.

I must conclude that she knows it's wrong, or maybe she just wanted sympathy and validation from the interviewer. But if she knew it's wrong and hurtful, then why could she not acknowledge the pain and damage she did to me?

It seems like a choice, to me.

Maybe one day I'll have empathy for her, but not this day.

[OKrunch]

Lots of solid points in this thread, and stuff i needed to read.

[BigEasyHeart]

BPD sucks and it's not fair for anyone involved. My wife is clearly not a monster nor a victim, she's just stuck in her own head and doesn't know how to let go of things she has no business carrying.  Understanding that allows me to love her as a person and I genuinely wish her the best in life...I'll always be one of her biggest fans.

Thanks Pook. There is so much in your post I can relate to but this part is truly beautiful. I'm working towards being in a similar place. Thanks for sharing this!

[BigEasyHeart]

Hey BigEasyHeart, thanks for posting this topics  . It offers a perspective that makes me feel compassionate, which in turn, interestingly, helps me let go.

Hi Tina, this is so true. In those moments when you can really feel this way towards that person, you are more able to forgive (*and that doesn't mean excuse behaviors*) and see a future for yourself. Here's to more of those moments. Thanks so much for your comment!

[BigEasyHeart]

I agree, taking the compassionate stance is where the healing is for me too - as long as I can learn to also hold my boundaries within that compassion and still put me first - this is where I always want to sit.

That is so well put. It sounds like you still have contact with your ex. I don't and I haven't reached out to try that in quite some time. I suppose when I get to a point where I can both feel compassionate and feel confident in holding my own boundaries that may be in the cards for me. It would be nice to get some actual closure but I have to allow for the fact that even if I ask for help in that from her, she may not be capable. Thanks!

[BigEasyHeart]

I can see that, yet......the explosive anger, the lying, the truly horrible name-calling and put-downs, the shaming, the gaslighting (which is absolutely horrible emotional abuse), the taking advantage of a good heart, and on and on.

In our last conversation, I was really clear on the lying and gaslighting, and I certainly heard the extremely personal put-downs and mocking and yelling.

I said to her "honey, I know that sometimes when we're angry it's because we don't feel seen and heard...I want you to know that I love you and hear you".

More attacking, greater anger.

She once told an interviewer about how she had cPTSD and it made her unable to vulnerable, and it causes problems in her interpersonal relationships. She never told ME that, never acknowledged for what is horrible emotional, verbal and psychological abuse. Never apologized for the name calling and explosions.

I must conclude that she knows it's wrong, or maybe she just wanted sympathy and validation from the interviewer. But if she knew it's wrong and hurtful, then why could she not acknowledge the pain and damage she did to me?

It seems like a choice, to me.

Maybe one day I'll have empathy for her, but not this day.

Wow jaded, there is so much I can relate to in here. It sounds like your experience was rough all the way through. I think my ex would fall into the "quiet" category. She kept it all bottled up and then it exploded, especially at the end. But looking back, I can see the hints of the things you mentioned all along. It's got to be tough. I know it still is for me. I like that you wrote "but not this day" and that you permit yourself to feel exactly how you are feeling. For me too, this is a process and I don't feel compassion like that all the time or even every day. But I hope that in time, the sadness, regret, anger, and resentment will be replaced with something else that is easier to live with. 

Thanks so much for your willingness to share this!

[BigEasyHeart]

Lots of solid points in this thread, and stuff i needed to read.

So glad to hear this Krunch. Thank you!

[jaded7]

Wow jaded, there is so much I can relate to in here. It sounds like your experience was rough all the way through. I think my ex would fall into the "quiet" category. She kept it all bottled up and then it exploded, especially at the end. But looking back, I can see the hints of the things you mentioned all along. It's got to be tough. I know it still is for me. I like that you wrote "but not this day" and that you permit yourself to feel exactly how you are feeling. For me too, this is a process and I don't feel compassion like that all the time or even every day. But I hope that in time, the sadness, regret, anger, and resentment will be replaced with something else that is easier to live with. 

Thanks so much for your willingness to share this!

And thank you for your sharing. We are all trying to figure this out. The hurt is still strong with me, the lost 'love', the idea of 'us'. I know that I allowed things that I shouldn't have, I know I should have been more forceful with my boundaries around yelling and name-calling, etc.

I found myself in a dilemma. I want to be supportive and caring, heck I am supportive and caring. And I saw her through that same lens..believing she was supportive and caring. And her outbursts were then 'not' her, and there must be something going on in her life that 'caused' her to act this way. Surely she wouldn't mean the things she said.

I expressed once to her that "when she doesn't respond to my texts or calls for days, even a week, it's hurtful, dehumanizing and confusing, especially because she says she loves me". Those exact words, in a calm and relational tone of voice.

She replied, I can acknowledge that. I've been spending time with my friends since they understand my life. I asked how I don't understand her life? And, that's why you haven't been returning my texts and calls?

What followed was 50 minutes of put downs and belittling, in a public grocery store deli. And then storming out. A text two days later "talk tomorrow" I didn't answer right away since I got the picture, she's ignoring me and apparently thinks I'm a loser. Then a day later an email eviscerating me and calling me cruel and punishing.

[Pensive1]

Thanks to all who shared in this thread.

It wasn't until after 'my ex broke up with me (after monkeybranching), and I came to understand (via my therapist) that she had BPD, that I began to really understand much of her thinking. I had assumed, over our 25 years together, that how she thought bore some resemblance to my own thinking. That the differences were just quantitative, with exaggeration of some features. If she said something, I interpeted it through the lens of what it would mean if I said that same thing. I didn't realize how totally differently her mind worked. The "When Hope Is Not Enough" book helped me to begin to understand that.

There's such pain and misery in BPD. My ex's brother, who also appears to have had BPD, committed suicide. There are reasons that this mental illness has the highest rate of completed suicide of all severe mental illnesses.

Over a year ago, I managed to convince my ex to enter therapy (both individual and DBT group therapy) - it happened mainly because she saw how much psychotherapy benefitted me. But I've been saddened, including this past week, at how little benefit that's produced for her, given her psychological defenses. In many ways, she lacks self-insight (but is blind to this). She won't admit that she has BPD, even though she unambiguously meets the criteria. She knows that everyone else in her therapy group has been diagnosed with BPD, but refuses to consider that it might be true of her. She has virtually never done the DBT homework (and it's hard to benefit without that). She complains that DBT work is beneath her - that she's too advanced for it. She demanded to be switched to a different DBT group because she says she finds one of the therapist's voices grating. She frequently talks about wanting to drop out of therapy, often misses sessions, etc. She's miserable, but her defense mechanisms stop her from taking the actions that might allow her to feel better.

[seekingtheway]

That is so well put. It sounds like you still have contact with your ex. I don't and I haven't reached out to try that in quite some time. I suppose when I get to a point where I can both feel compassionate and feel confident in holding my own boundaries that may be in the cards for me. It would be nice to get some actual closure but I have to allow for the fact that even if I ask for help in that from her, she may not be capable. Thanks!

I am not in contact with him at the moment - it's only been three days of no contact, but I wasn't able to hold good boundaries with him while still in contact. He's like some kind of magnet to me!!! So no contact is the only way that I can hold proper boundaries and also hold compassion for him... at least for now anyway. My problem is that my compassion is very strong generally, and I don't always protect myself. It's something I need to get better at.

[BigEasyHeart]

And thank you for your sharing. We are all trying to figure this out. The hurt is still strong with me, the lost 'love', the idea of 'us'. I know that I allowed things that I shouldn't have, I know I should have been more forceful with my boundaries around yelling and name-calling, etc.

I found myself in a dilemma. I want to be supportive and caring, heck I am supportive and caring. And I saw her through that same lens..believing she was supportive and caring. And her outbursts were then 'not' her, and there must be something going on in her life that 'caused' her to act this way. Surely she wouldn't mean the things she said.

So true Jaded,

One of the things I'm working on is getting better at standing up for myself in the moment. When my ex would have these moments where she attacked me I'd either go into a defensive mode or just freeze up. As you pointed out, you have this person who was so supportive, loving, and caring at the beginning and then they become something else. It's shocking and scary, to be honest, and I didn't know how to react. It creates a sort of toxic cognitive conflict for the person on the receiving end of that behavior. This person who has been so nice to me is now being so cruel for such seemingly insignificant (and often imagined) slights. This doesn't make sense. I "know" she's not like this, so maybe there IS something wrong with me that is causing her to act this way.

It takes a while to unravel those threads of self-blame, if-only thinking, doubt, shame, and regret. Even longer to allow yourself to be a human who is not supposed to be perfect, and realize that you are a good person who did nothing but your best to love and care for someone who just could not accept those things and remain in an adult relationship with you.

Thanks again for sharing and helping us all work through these things!

[jaded7]

So true Jaded,

One of the things I'm working on is getting better at standing up for myself in the moment. When my ex would have these moments where she attacked me I'd either go into a defensive mode or just freeze up. As you pointed out, you have this person who was so supportive, loving, and caring at the beginning and then they become something else. It's shocking and scary, to be honest, and I didn't know how to react. It creates a sort of toxic cognitive conflict for the person on the receiving end of that behavior. This person who has been so nice to me is now being so cruel for such seemingly insignificant (and often imagined) slights. This doesn't make sense. I "know" she's not like this, so maybe there IS something wrong with me that is causing her to act this way.

It takes a while to unravel those threads of self-blame, if-only thinking, doubt, shame, and regret. Even longer to allow yourself to be a human who is not supposed to be perfect, and realize that you are a good person who did nothing but your best to love and care for someone who just could not accept those things and remain in an adult relationship with you.

Thanks again for sharing and helping us all work through these things!

Yes, you described it well. It IS shocking and scary because it's so unexpected. I didn't know how to react either. I would just go quiet, stumble for words...maybe there is something I did really wrong here and I'm just too stupid to see it.

So much self-blame, so much doubt and hurt.

But you said it best, WE are good people that did our best to love and care for someone who could not receive it, or had a need to sabotage it. I do know that about myself, and it is a nice place to return to when I'm feeling hurt and sad.

Two things have given me refuge in a harbor in this whole thing- her sister told a friend of mine while we were still together that "she was worried about me" being in a relationship with her sister because "she's not a good/nice person (my friend couldn't remember which words she used). Her OWN sister told a friend this, a friend her sister knew I knew. imagine that.

And, when her Mom asked me when I was coming up for Christmas, I had to say I don't know since my ex hadn't said anything about Christmas at all to me, nothing. Hadn't asked me what I was doing, didn't tell me when she was going up to her parents (where I spent the previous Christmas). Imagine, my partner of 2 years had not asked me what I was doing for Christmas, so when her Mom asked I said I don't know, she hasn't mentioned Christmas...her mom said well just come up on Wednesday, we can't wait to have you. I said no, I can't just come up ______ is the boss. Her Mom shook her head and rolled her eyes in disgust.

[BigEasyHeart]

Thanks to all who shared in this thread.

It wasn't until after 'my ex broke up with me (after monkeybranching), and I came to understand (via my therapist) that she had BPD, that I began to really understand much of her thinking. I had assumed, over our 25 years together, that how she thought bore some resemblance to my own thinking. That the differences were just quantitative, with exaggeration of some features. If she said something, I interpeted it through the lens of what it would mean if I said that same thing. I didn't realize how totally differently her mind worked. The "When Hope Is Not Enough" book helped me to begin to understand that.

There's such pain and misery in BPD. My ex's brother, who also appears to have had BPD, committed suicide. There are reasons that this mental illness has the highest rate of completed suicide of all severe mental illnesses.

Pensive,
This was true for me too Pensive. I'm still not 100% sure because she never told me she had a diagnosis. However, I learned so much after we broke up by reviewing the relationship (and with the help of a good therapist like you). It started from learning about disorganized attachment (which I found out she had been told she had), then CPTSD, which led me to BPD. They all have a lot of similarities but the more I found out about BPD the more things that didn't make sense to me fell into place. I can't diagnose her of course but she had told me of multiple family members who had BPD and/or NPD. I'm confident she had at least BPD traits.

I wasn't at all aware of what she was dealing with. Like you, I assumed our minds worked essentially in the same way. However, looking back that was anything but the case. The shame of it all is that if I had known, I would have responded to her in a completely different way that would have been supportive of what she was dealing with. It was like she was expecting me to drive somewhere I'd never been without a roadmap and then accusing me of purposefully getting lost just to upset her.

Thanks so much for sharing your experience!

[BigEasyHeart]

I am not in contact with him at the moment - it's only been three days of no contact, but I wasn't able to hold good boundaries with him while still in contact. He's like some kind of magnet to me!!! So no contact is the only way that I can hold proper boundaries and also hold compassion for him... at least for now anyway. My problem is that my compassion is very strong generally, and I don't always protect myself. It's something I need to get better at.

Hang in there seekingtheway. This isn't easy stuff and you're doing great!

I hear you about the boundary issues. One of the things I want to get better at is standing up for myself in the moment. Looking back on the relationship, my ex said many things that were really mean and uncalled for to me. I didn't know how to respond. All I knew is that I didn't want to match that anger with more anger. So, often I would just shut down.

One of the things I'm working on is staying present in the moment and standing up for the way I deserve to be treated in a way that is straightforward and respectful to the other person (even if they are not being respectful to me). Then again, I've been NC a long time and I have no idea if I would be successful if I ever heard from her again and she repeated that kind of behavior.

[jaded7]

Pensive,
This was true for me too Pensive. I'm still not 100% sure because she never told me she had a diagnosis. However, I learned so much after we broke up by reviewing the relationship (and with the help of a good therapist like you). It started from learning about disorganized attachment (which I found out she had been told she had), then CPTSD, which led me to BPD. They all have a lot of similarities but the more I found out about BPD the more things that didn't make sense to me fell into place. I can't diagnose her of course but she had told me of multiple family members who had BPD and/or NPD. I'm confident she had at least BPD traits.

I have mentioned elsewhere that my ex told me she had cPTSD, from her own ex who she said was a narcissist and narcissistically abused here. She told me she had EMDR.

In my reading, I have come to understand that for many therapists and experts, BPD and cPTSD are essentially the same. Some say that there is politics within the mental health profession about having cPTSD as a diagnosis, or even BPD for that matter.

I have listened to some very highly trained therapists say that the only difference might be in the origination of the problem, but for all intents and purposes they manifest in the same way.

I started a thread a few months ago about this if you are interested.