At a crossroads, but I've been here before

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hello

I have been visiting here recently, trying to figure out how to approach my own situation. I finally felt it was necessary to post, since I feel I’m at a bit of a make-or-break situation with my wife…and struggling a lot with myself too to be honest. I am quite conflicted about things, and if that makes the following a bit of a mess to read, I hope some of you will still bear with me. I would really appreciate some suggestions from people who have first-hand knowledge of what these kinds of relationships are like, and maybe especially those of you who have tried supporting a BPD partner attempting therapy.

My wife and I have been married for about three years now and began our relationship in 2017. We’re from quite different cultural backgrounds. Due to a mix of immigration policy issues, COVID and travelling restrictions, as well as some relationship conflicts, we have had lengthy separations especially in the first 2-3 years, before we got married in 2020. We have been living together from spring of 2021 until now. We don’t have any children. I suppose I noticed very early on that she had some quirks or behavior I wasn’t used to. She would obsess over small issues or mistakes and frequent, large conflicts with her family (at the time she was living at home). She had a very challenging time growing up, having moved abroad without her parents at an early age, living with extended family and in various homestays while attending high school and university outside of her home country. She struggled for about a year with what sounded like depression. She also experienced some physical abuse from her mom when she was a kid, and they had a very difficult relationship in general. I could relate to a lot of these things, having had a challenging upbringing and life myself. I’ve struggled with anxiety and loneliness much of my life. I struggle with confidence, and have had issues with unemployment, feeling isolated from others and so on.

She and I really clicked early on. It just felt natural and easy. We could talk for hours and spent a lot of time in our own bubble so to speak – and we still do. But throughout our time together we have also had major conflicts. Some breaks and better periods in between, but nothing that ever really lasted or felt stable to me.

The conflicts have changed in nature over the years. In the beginning she used to turn things inwards; saying that I hate her, she is worthless – things like that. Falling to the floor, crying, screaming. I had no idea how to handle this stuff. I’ve never experienced anything like it, and it scared me to be honest. Especially when she started threatening suicide and eventually having “mock attempts” (putting a cord around her throat, holding a knife to her wrist).

I would always try dialogue, attempting to reason with her, but when that failed I would either get frustrated and angry or feel the need to just get away from the whole thing. At the time I thought maybe she suffered from some kind of post-traumatic stress disorder or maybe depression. She was cycling between these emotional extremes of super child-like happiness and complete hysterical breakdown, when we had a conflict or disagreement. Eventually I insisted on therapy. It actually seemed to help her so much that I thought we we’re finally on the right track. We got married not long after, but then got separated again immediately after due to the COVID outbreak and visa restrictions.

When we finally got back together again about a year later, things seemed to have changed for her. She got along better with her family and had new opportunities in her home country that made her hesitant to rejoin me (she couldn’t wait to leave Korea the first time around). And very quickly it seemed that all the benefits of the earlier therapy from before had simply vanished. She said she couldn’t remember what she had learned in the therapy anymore. And the conflicts returned with a vengeance. But for some reason the expression was almost turned on its head. Bouts of massive rage directed against anyone who would say “the wrong thing” or dare to voice any type of criticism or opinions that differed from hers. A lot of directed against me and my family. She of course voiced anger and displeasure in the past too, but it felt to me like a new chord had been struck in her. Like she was done taking everyone’s BS, and now the world would have to adapt to *her*.

That quickly took such an emotional toll on me that I eventually demanded that we talk to her doctor, which led to her getting diagnosed with BPD about two years ago. She resented me a lot for that, while going back and forth on whether and when to accept the treatment offered to her. On good days she could see the patterns in her life, on bad days it was me, my family and my country that caused her problems and therefore also her BPD. Now it's been about five months since she finally started weekly therapy sessions (one-year mentalization based group-therapy treatment), but I’m really struggling to see the light. For the last two years I’ve been stuck in this limbo, wanting to leave, things improving for a while, then a massive fight, sometimes her suicidal threats returning, here and there having to drop by at the mental health emergency services, calling suicide hotlines for help and so on.

I think I held on to this hope of the BPD therapy being “the answer” for so long, and here I am – questioning whether I can and should try to stick it out. I recently lost my job, and was diagnosed with stress and depression. Almost every day for the last two years I think I’ve been feeling unsafe. When is the next conflict coming? How bad will she get? How angry will I get? Why am I still here? Who would ever accept and try to work on a relationship this bad? Honestly, I feel ashamed of myself now for having poured six years of my life into what often feels like a bottomless pit. The truth is, I struggle to even enjoy the “happy” moments we have together anymore. I can’t help but feel that she’s so off-key in her expression most of the time. If we’re just watching TV together it’s SUPER cozy, she is SO happy. It feels to me like the flip side to her fits of rage and mistrust, which is always lurking behind her smile. And so I end up resenting her for that too.

I'm so worn down by the whole thing. I can get incredible angry at her, when she has an episode. I just want her to disappear, so the torture will end, and I can't help but express it to her, when it gets really bad. I've spoken with my therapist about leaving, and the few people I have opened up to about it, also express concern. I would have never thought myself capable of ending up in this situation.
And yet I’m struggling to let go. For practical and financial reasons, sure, but also the hope of us working out with the therapy she is doing now. It feels so naive – so many things about her frustrate me, but this connection and intimacy we had in the beginning especially, which still shows up at times…maybe I’m addicted to it or the idea of it? It hasn’t all disappeared, but these days it’s mostly tinged with this mix of resentment, powerlessness, and sadness for me at least. I do worry that I’m just trapped in codependence and should be heading for the door. Especially considering how potentially risky it feels to ever start a family or buy a home with someone like her.

I kind of feel bad even posting about it here. Like it’s so obvious I should just have left a long time ago, and anyone can see that? And yet a deep part of me wants to believe in a future for us, maybe also so I don’t have to make this kind of decision (which I'm not very good at). I was sure I was leaving just days ago, but I can feel that I’m trying to find reasons to stay again. Minor things that might be improving since she started therapy – like her being less explosive, maybe more reasonable before getting angry, a bit better at letting go of things etc.

Sorry for the long post. I haven’t really written about this before, and I don’t have a lot of social outlets for how I’m feeling about it. And I definitely have no one in my life who has any real way of knowing what this feels like. Thanks for any suggestions or thoughts anyone who reads this might have on it. I wish I had done this before.

[Stuckinhope]

Hello

I have been visiting here recently, trying to figure out how to approach my own situation. I finally felt it was necessary to post, since I feel I’m at a bit of a make-or-break situation with my wife…and struggling a lot with myself too to be honest. I am quite conflicted about things, and if that makes the following a bit of a mess to read, I hope some of you will still bear with me. I would really appreciate some suggestions from people who have first-hand knowledge of what these kinds of relationships are like, and maybe especially those of you who have tried supporting a BPD partner attempting therapy.

My wife and I have been married for about three years now and began our relationship in 2017. We’re from quite different cultural backgrounds. Due to a mix of immigration policy issues, COVID and travelling restrictions, as well as some relationship conflicts, we have had lengthy separations especially in the first 2-3 years, before we got married in 2020. We have been living together from spring of 2021 until now. We don’t have any children. I suppose I noticed very early on that she had some quirks or behavior I wasn’t used to. She would obsess over small issues or mistakes and frequent, large conflicts with her family (at the time she was living at home). She had a very challenging time growing up, having moved abroad without her parents at an early age, living with extended family and in various homestays while attending high school and university outside of her home country. She struggled for about a year with what sounded like depression. She also experienced some physical abuse from her mom when she was a kid, and they had a very difficult relationship in general. I could relate to a lot of these things, having had a challenging upbringing and life myself. I’ve struggled with anxiety and loneliness much of my life. I struggle with confidence, and have had issues with unemployment, feeling isolated from others and so on.

She and I really clicked early on. It just felt natural and easy. We could talk for hours and spent a lot of time in our own bubble so to speak – and we still do. But throughout our time together we have also had major conflicts. Some breaks and better periods in between, but nothing that ever really lasted or felt stable to me.

The conflicts have changed in nature over the years. In the beginning she used to turn things inwards; saying that I hate her, she is worthless – things like that. Falling to the floor, crying, screaming. I had no idea how to handle this stuff. I’ve never experienced anything like it, and it scared me to be honest. Especially when she started threatening suicide and eventually having “mock attempts” (putting a cord around her throat, holding a knife to her wrist).

I would always try dialogue, attempting to reason with her, but when that failed I would either get frustrated and angry or feel the need to just get away from the whole thing. At the time I thought maybe she suffered from some kind of post-traumatic stress disorder or maybe depression. She was cycling between these emotional extremes of super child-like happiness and complete hysterical breakdown, when we had a conflict or disagreement. Eventually I insisted on therapy. It actually seemed to help her so much that I thought we we’re finally on the right track. We got married not long after, but then got separated again immediately after due to the COVID outbreak and visa restrictions.

When we finally got back together again about a year later, things seemed to have changed for her. She got along better with her family and had new opportunities in her home country that made her hesitant to rejoin me (she couldn’t wait to leave Korea the first time around). And very quickly it seemed that all the benefits of the earlier therapy from before had simply vanished. She said she couldn’t remember what she had learned in the therapy anymore. And the conflicts returned with a vengeance. But for some reason the expression was almost turned on its head. Bouts of massive rage directed against anyone who would say “the wrong thing” or dare to voice any type of criticism or opinions that differed from hers. A lot of directed against me and my family. She of course voiced anger and displeasure in the past too, but it felt to me like a new chord had been struck in her. Like she was done taking everyone’s BS, and now the world would have to adapt to *her*.

That quickly took such an emotional toll on me that I eventually demanded that we talk to her doctor, which led to her getting diagnosed with BPD about two years ago. She resented me a lot for that, while going back and forth on whether and when to accept the treatment offered to her. On good days she could see the patterns in her life, on bad days it was me, my family and my country that caused her problems and therefore also her BPD. Now it's been about five months since she finally started weekly therapy sessions (one-year mentalization based group-therapy treatment), but I’m really struggling to see the light. For the last two years I’ve been stuck in this limbo, wanting to leave, things improving for a while, then a massive fight, sometimes her suicidal threats returning, here and there having to drop by at the mental health emergency services, calling suicide hotlines for help and so on.

I think I held on to this hope of the BPD therapy being “the answer” for so long, and here I am – questioning whether I can and should try to stick it out. I recently lost my job, and was diagnosed with stress and depression. Almost every day for the last two years I think I’ve been feeling unsafe. When is the next conflict coming? How bad will she get? How angry will I get? Why am I still here? Who would ever accept and try to work on a relationship this bad? Honestly, I feel ashamed of myself now for having poured six years of my life into what often feels like a bottomless pit. The truth is, I struggle to even enjoy the “happy” moments we have together anymore. I can’t help but feel that she’s so off-key in her expression most of the time. If we’re just watching TV together it’s SUPER cozy, she is SO happy. It feels to me like the flip side to her fits of rage and mistrust, which is always lurking behind her smile. And so I end up resenting her for that too.

I'm so worn down by the whole thing. I can get incredible angry at her, when she has an episode. I just want her to disappear, so the torture will end, and I can't help but express it to her, when it gets really bad. I've spoken with my therapist about leaving, and the few people I have opened up to about it, also express concern. I would have never thought myself capable of ending up in this situation.
And yet I’m struggling to let go. For practical and financial reasons, sure, but also the hope of us working out with the therapy she is doing now. It feels so naive – so many things about her frustrate me, but this connection and intimacy we had in the beginning especially, which still shows up at times…maybe I’m addicted to it or the idea of it? It hasn’t all disappeared, but these days it’s mostly tinged with this mix of resentment, powerlessness, and sadness for me at least. I do worry that I’m just trapped in codependence and should be heading for the door. Especially considering how potentially risky it feels to ever start a family or buy a home with someone like her.

I kind of feel bad even posting about it here. Like it’s so obvious I should just have left a long time ago, and anyone can see that? And yet a deep part of me wants to believe in a future for us, maybe also so I don’t have to make this kind of decision (which I'm not very good at). I was sure I was leaving just days ago, but I can feel that I’m trying to find reasons to stay again. Minor things that might be improving since she started therapy – like her being less explosive, maybe more reasonable before getting angry, a bit better at letting go of things etc.

Sorry for the long post. I haven’t really written about this before, and I don’t have a lot of social outlets for how I’m feeling about it. And I definitely have no one in my life who has any real way of knowing what this feels like. Thanks for any suggestions or thoughts anyone who reads this might have on it. I wish I had done this before.

[EyesUp]

@Stuck - Welcome.

Don't feel bad about posting here - Many in this community have or had similar conflicted feelings. This is a place where you can safely communicate about your experience - to get feedback, or to simply vent.

I can recall feeling trapped between two types of failure, or perhaps less judgmentally, two options that didn't feel like good solutions:  Remain in difficult relationship with limited prospects for improvement, or end the relationship and the associated consequences...  I also felt uncomfortable remaining, well, stuck...  No good choices.  I mention this only to say:  I think I know how you feel.

I don't know if this will be helpful, but in my journey there was a "lightbulb" moment that made things somewhat easier.  One thing that you will find in the literature here and elsewhere, if not already, is the idea of "radical acceptance" - When I first started to consider what this might mean in my relationship, I assumed it meant that I had to unconditionally accept my partner - a very tall order, because I understood that my partner's behavior was not healthy... I couldn't quite solve the riddle of how to accept and live with unhealthy behaviors.

Finally, it dawned on me:  I didn't need to accept my partner.  Rather, I needed to accept what I could change in myself.

In my case, that meant accepting that ending the relationship - something I was adamantly opposed to, on many levels - was actually a necessary and even positive thing to do, for me, my partner, and our kids.  It was a completely new way of seeing things.  I went from avoiding some perception of failure to embracing a proactive step forward in a new direction.

My point is not to advocate ending your relationship - only you can decided when/if that's right for you.  Rather, my point is to suggest that you explore your options as objectively as possible.  Possibly with an individual therapist?

Your post made several references to your wife's therapy - My somewhat direct suggestion is to try to focus on what you can control and potentially change (yourself), rather than hoping that an external process will somehow change your wife...

Please let us know how you're doing and how we can help.

[ForeverDad]

I think I held on to this hope of the BPD therapy being “the answer” for so long, and here I am – questioning whether I can and should try to stick it out. I recently lost my job, and was diagnosed with stress and depression. Almost every day for the last two years I think I’ve been feeling unsafe. When is the next conflict coming? How bad will she get? How angry will I get? Why am I still here? Who would ever accept and try to work on a relationship this bad? Honestly, I feel ashamed of myself now for having poured six years of my life into what often feels like a bottomless pit. The truth is, I struggle to even enjoy the “happy” moments we have together anymore.

I too was a "deer in the headlights" person who could not even contemplate a divorce.  Yet nothing I tried worked.  Life with the discord, rants and rages was growing increasing worse and worse.

Ever been to the amusement park and played Whack-a-Mole?  No matter how many times you hit the mole it popped up again and again.  That's almost how it is with attempts to avoid triggering someone who is disordered, especially one with acting-out behaviors.  We can try to minimize the triggering but we have to accept that it is not only "us", anything and everything can be a trigger.

Years ago before we separated, I would come home not knowing who I would meet.  I could leave a ranting maniac in the morning and come home to a calm spouse.  I could leave a calm spouse in the morning and come home to a raging stranger on the rampage.  I recall one time I came home to a calm spouse but as she sat down on the sofa to tell me about something, it reminded her of something else and before my eyes her face changed and morphed into my anti-spouse.  She did it by herself, I didn't do anything but listen.

So accept that you may be able to avoid causing some triggering but it will happen with or without you.  In fact, what works now many not work in the future, it's like these chronic immune diseases we have today, some things may work but in time the malady finds a way to reduce the effectiveness.  Unless and until she seeks meaningful therapy and diligently applies it in her thinking and perceptions for the long term and makes real progress then it won't get better...

However, be aware that even with diagnosis and therapy, if it even succeeds, your spouse won't be entirely 'normal'.  Would she be normal enough for you to contemplate having children?  At best, you likely wouldn't know for years.  And then there's the complication of simply having kids, life changing from two to three or more is a entirely new dynamic.

I had thought that having a child would help my spouse be less unhappy watching her baby discover the wonders and joys as a child.  Nice idea but it backfired.  First, it changed her perceptions, I was no longer the man she married, I was a father.  Not a bad thing in itself but her biggest childhood trauma was her stepfather and my becoming a father changed the dynamics of our relationship.  It was not fun being compared to him. Second, her SF had come into her family's life when she was three years old.  So as our child grew from a toddler to a preschooler, our home life - repeated conflict - was even worse than before.  There was no choice but to separate and divorce while he was still three years old.  There is a truism I note, Having children does not in itself resolve problems if there are substantive mental health issues, rather it can make a divorce vastly more complicated and expensive due to the added custody and parenting factors should the marriage fail.

[Stuckinhope]

@Stuck - Welcome.

Don't feel bad about posting here - Many in this community have or had similar conflicted feelings. This is a place where you can safely communicate about your experience - to get feedback, or to simply vent.

Thank you, it does feel good - or at least necessary - to finally put it out there so to speak and have a fitting place to do so. I think I've just felt worried about being judged by others. If they knew what my home life was like I mean. It really does clash a lot with the way I see myself, I think.

I guess I'm doing okay right now. We have had a few days of no conflicts, and she is leaving on a weekend trip tomorrow. Perhaps a good time to reflect again, but I can feel myself switching back to feeling more hopeful again. A lot of false dawns...

I don't know if this will be helpful, but in my journey there was a "lightbulb" moment that made things somewhat easier.  One thing that you will find in the literature here and elsewhere, if not already, is the idea of "radical acceptance" - When I first started to consider what this might mean in my relationship, I assumed it meant that I had to unconditionally accept my partner - a very tall order, because I understood that my partner's behavior was not healthy... I couldn't quite solve the riddle of how to accept and live with unhealthy behaviors.

Finally, it dawned on me:  I didn't need to accept my partner.  Rather, I needed to accept what I could change in myself.

I've encountered the concept, but never really delved into it. On the surface I would think it's about accepting the situation, which I guess is kind of what happened for you as well, if I'm understanding you correctly? That what was actually necessary was to move on, since it wasn't possible to make the relationship work in your case.

Would you mind elaborating a bit on when and how this happened for you? Was it influenced in particular by any events, changes, other people etc?

Your post made several references to your wife's therapy - My somewhat direct suggestion is to try to focus on what you can control and potentially change (yourself), rather than hoping that an external process will somehow change your wife...

I get what you're saying. Maybe I've been too focused on figuring out her side of things, it just felt so overwhelmingly necessary, if we were to have a chance of making it work. I feel like I invested so much in this relationship already, and I do have strong feelings for her still, so for a really long time that felt like the goal I was working on.
I have worked on my own approach to things both in therapy and on my own so to speak, but I have been getting very caught up in trying to "fix" her unfortunately. Not sure how to break out of that, unless I break up so to speak. This therapy she is doing though, thats the final attempt on my part at least. Which is supposed to change her ability to understand both others and herself, and help her emotional control, I think.

Ever been to the amusement park and played Whack-a-Mole?  No matter how many times you hit the mole it popped up again and again.  That's almost how it is with attempts to avoid triggering someone who is disordered, especially one with acting-out behaviors.  We can try to minimize the triggering but we have to accept that it is not only "us", anything and everything can be a trigger.

Years ago before we separated, I would come home not knowing who I would meet.  I could leave a ranting maniac in the morning and come home to a calm spouse.  I could leave a calm spouse in the morning and come home to a raging stranger on the rampage.  I recall one time I came home to a calm spouse but as she sat down on the sofa to tell me about something, it reminded her of something else and before my eyes her face changed and morphed into my anti-spouse.  She did it by herself, I didn't do anything but listen.

That really hits home. I can't count the amount of times she would just start things up by herself like that. All of the sudden her entire demeanor just switching in a second, because some memory from three years ago triggered her again. It's scary how volatile her emotional state is, and how impervious to reason she can be.
At least now I do feel like I have some control over it. I try hard not to argue with her anymore, but try to verbalize her perspective, and give her a hug instead of making a case for why she shouldn't think like that...it's just really exhausting having to help her put out the fires. That pop up anytime, anywhere. It really gets to me after a while, or when it happens repeatedly.

December was really bad because of the holidays. She has a really difficult time with my family, so she has been constantly triggered by the idea of having to spend Christmas with them again. Over and over again how awful and boring it is, how bad the food will be, how little they care for her or include her in things. And of course all the mistakes I have made over the years from her point of view. Just...so exhausting and self-centered.

However, be aware that even with diagnosis and therapy, if it even succeeds, your spouse won't be entirely 'normal'.  Would she be normal enough for you to contemplate having children?  At best, you likely wouldn't know for years.  And then there's the complication of simply having kids, life changing from two to three or more is a entirely new dynamic.

That's one of my main worries. How long will it take for this therapy to work, how much can it actually help her?

So often I have felt alone with anything that *had* to be done, because she is too caught up in her own stuff.
Having children will be hard work a lot of the time. I don't know if I trust her ability to put the time and effort in, when things get tough. For her job she does whatever she needs to it seems, but that attitude doesn't come out for a lot of other things. Whenever we talk about having kids, she wants to either move to her country while they're young, or have her parents move here, so she has support.

She keeps joking that she wants them around, so she can pass the kid on to her parents, when it's too much. I mean sure, I can see the merit in it to some extent, but given how she tends to pass the buck on housework and other tedious but necessary things in general...I do have my doubts about her as a potential parent. She is usually great with kids though, it should be said.

[ForeverDad]

That really hits home. I can't count the amount of times she would just start things up by herself like that. All of the sudden her entire demeanor just switching in a second, because some memory from three years ago triggered her again. It's scary how volatile her emotional state is, and how impervious to reason she can be.

This may also be her experiencing something called dissociation.  Afterward, my ex would claim "I never said that!"  When I recorded on my camcorder, she took out the cartridge and ripped up the tape into itty bitty pieces.  Looking back I'm surprised she didn't trash the camcorder too.

Did she really not recall that?  Her memory holes were very convenient, how did she know how far she could act out and not go too far?  Was it conscious or unconscious?  It remains one of life's unanswered quandaries.

Whenever we talk about having kids, she wants to either move to her country while they're young, or have her parents move here, so she has support.

She keeps joking that she wants them around, so she can pass the kid on to her parents, when it's too much. I mean sure, I can see the merit in it to some extent, but given how she tends to pass the buck on housework and other tedious but necessary things in general...I do have my doubts about her as a potential parent. She is usually great with kids though, it should be said.

Sounds like she's more comfortable with being a grandparent that a parent.  No, her family might be helpful sometimes (as long as they don't have significant issues too!) but reality means being a parent is a 100% responsibility.

She is "usually great with kids"?  But she always gets to hands them back to the parents.  Being a parent is different.  "The buck stops here."

[EyesUp]

Hi there.

It sounds like you have a moment to reflect while she's away.  Thanks for checking in with us.

Lots to unpack in your post...  Here are a few thoughts.

I've encountered the concept, but never really delved into it. On the surface I would think it's about accepting the situation, which I guess is kind of what happened for you as well, if I'm understanding you correctly? That what was actually necessary was to move on, since it wasn't possible to make the relationship work in your case.

I like the way you put it - "accepting the situation" - the key for me was realizing that I was part of the situation. I think when we say "the situation" it's often with the understanding that somehow the situation is external to ourselves, almost like an environmental condition - the weather - that's not really in our control. However, as adults, it turns out that a lot of things are either in our control or at least within our influence. And that includes choosing who we spend our time with, who to have relationships with, and how we conduct ourselves in these relationships...   

In my case, "accepting the situation" meant coming to a point where I could accept my own contribution to the relationship, my own limitations within the relationship, my own dealbreakers, boundaries, values...   It wasn't about accepting some external "situation" - rather, it was about recognizing and accepting the internal situation... I was not happy, not effective, not contributing to a solution or improvement, and not demonstrating good behavior to our three kids. No therapist was going to magically rescue me or my uBPDxw, certainly not in the short term. I accepted that I had to make a change to resolve the situation.

Would you mind elaborating a bit on when and how this happened for you? Was it influenced in particular by any events, changes, other people etc?

My uBPDxw demonstrated increasingly extreme behaviors over time that went beyond what I would have considered deal breakers at an earlier stage in the relationship. Very early in the relationship, in yet another circular argument, I recall telling my uBPDxw that she was an "anger artist" - meaning that she was great at coming up with creative reasons to be angry. As you can imagine, that did not go over well, and I understood that my somewhat sarcastic/caustic approach was venting - at best - and gave my partner zero incentive to reflect or consider my feelings. I didn't repeat that approach, however my uBPDxw didn't stop finding new and surprising reasons to be upset with me - or anything/anyone else.

We went through four different couples' therapists over a period of about 10 years. Eventually, I realized that attempting to improve "the situation" by expecting her to change was not going to work - that's when I realized the change needed to come from me.   

In parallel, the increasingly extreme behaviors included multiple affairs (which taken alone would have been a deal breaker at an earlier point in the relationship), coming to understand that my uBPDxw blamed me for her having affairs and offered no remorse.  This coincided with two suicide threats and threats of making (false) domestic violence claims against me.  And this coincided with ongoing rages over seemingly anything... the kids, the kids' teachers, her family, my family, money, work, weather... you name it.

You may think that some of the things I mention here are beyond what you've experienced, and that may be true - but the thing I've learned from participating in this community is that when a disordered person rages - they are showing you who they are. This is a behavior that makes sense to them, and this is how they are attempting to manage their thoughts and feelings.

The partner (in this case, you) often excuses this behavior by concluding it's the exception and not the rule, and seeking some explanation or a way to excuse the behavior.  "If only I can learn the triggers, I can avoid them, and then all will be good" - unfortunately, this is not true and not how disordered behavior works...

You can't fix a disordered person. Only the disordered person can (maybe) fix the disordered person. I've been part of this community for just a few years, but I can't recall reading about a success story with a recovery (in fairness, maybe I don't spend enough time on the other boards) - What we do tend to hear is about learning and practicing skills to reduce conflict, set boundaries, and manage emotions. Even when this level of success occurs, significant challenges remain.

I get what you're saying. Maybe I've been too focused on figuring out her side of things, it just felt so overwhelmingly necessary, if we were to have a chance of making it work. I feel like I invested so much in this relationship already, and I do have strong feelings for her still, so for a really long time that felt like the goal I was working on.

It's really hard to figure out how someone else thinks and feels. Especially someone who doesn't truly have reliable self awareness or introspection. For a long time, I attempted to navigate my relationship like it was a sort of puzzle or problem to solve. That approach didn't work out for me, or for my uBPDxw. I'd encourage you to explore how you feel about allowing your partner to go on this journey without you...  maybe she wants to change, or maybe not. Maybe she'll want to continue to be with you, maybe not. Scary stuff. Here's the thing: It's not entirely up to her. You've got a 50% vote in the relationship - and a 100% vote in your own life choices. How do you feel about this?

I have worked on my own approach to things both in therapy and on my own so to speak, but I have been getting very caught up in trying to "fix" her unfortunately. Not sure how to break out of that, unless I break up so to speak. This therapy she is doing though, thats the final attempt on my part at least. Which is supposed to change her ability to understand both others and herself, and help her emotional control, I think.

I also had a fixer mentality. There are a lot of behavioral studies and theories that shed light on this. Fixers are, unsurprisingly, attracted to partners who want/need to be helped or rescued - and yet both the fixers and their partners are often unaware that this is the case. 

I encourage you to consider why you were attracted to your partner in the first place. Was there a time when she appreciated what you did for her? Did you feel valued and appreciated because you were able to "help"?  When did that dynamic start to change? These might be topics to explore with your individual T, if not already part of that process.

In the meantime, if you haven't already discovered some of the articles here, you might find these two (very different) references to be good food for thought:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog

These may or may not resonate with your situation, but so many of our relationships here follow similar patterns, I would not be surprised if you find these to be eye openers...

Let us know how it goes when your partner returns, and good luck.

[Stuckinhope]

Just want to thank both of you for offering your time and sharing your experiences. I really appreciate it. It's a lot to take in at the moment, but I can see the value of the questions you're posing. It's been helpful so far to take time out mentally to just reexamine some of the patterns in our relationship. She had another episode yesterday, screaming at her dad on FaceTime for an hour because he made a mistake about a flight ticket. Not exactly a lot of green shoots from her therapy on display there...but yeah, I guess the rage is just natural to her. Especially with her parents.

In my case, "accepting the situation" meant coming to a point where I could accept my own contribution to the relationship, my own limitations within the relationship, my own dealbreakers, boundaries, values...   It wasn't about accepting some external "situation" - rather, it was about recognizing and accepting the internal situation

That was part of what I meant too. I think for a while I have lost sight of a good chunk of my own part of the equation. There's a number boundaries and red lines I've had to renegotiate. Helpful habits, needs and plain day-to-day preferences I have adjusted or basically given up on on over the years, because they weren't very compatible with our relationship. I feel like it can sometimes be a bit difficult to identify what is normal give-and-take in a marriage, and what crosses the line?

Anyway, I'm trying to think more on my own motivations for staying and getting into the relationship in the first place. It's one of the things I have been talking to my therapist about as well, and definitly something I tend to neglect.

In the meantime, if you haven't already discovered some of the articles here, you might find these two (very different) references to be good food for thought:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships
https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog

Some of the stuff on codepence and FOG does resonate for sure. Though it's a mixed bag, which I suspect is probably quite normal. I will have to consider it more I suppose. Luckily a lot of the things about being kind of eclipsed or bullied by your partner isn't really the case for me, I think. But she definitely triggers the helper in me, and I think that is a strong drive of mine...for better or worse.

You can't fix a disordered person. Only the disordered person can (maybe) fix the disordered person. I've been part of this community for just a few years, but I can't recall reading about a success story with a recovery (in fairness, maybe I don't spend enough time on the other boards)

I think she does realize now that she needs help at least, and I can see she is really trying to change. But picking up again on my own part of "the situation"...I am starting to think that maybe I'm just not really cut out for supporting her through it. I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has experience with their partner committing to this kind of therapy (or something similar), and how it improved the relationship - or perhaps didn't.

[EyesUp]

@Stuckinhope - You might find the insight you seek on the "Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup" board...  consider asking about therapy experiences, processes, and outcomes over there:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php#:~:text=Romantic%20Relationship%20%7C%20Bettering%20a%20Relationship%20or%20Reversing%20a%20Breakup

My sense is that many participants in these forums are "work in progress" - but there are some veterans and ambassadors here who might be able to point you to threads or other resources with the insights you seek.

This community does have some consensus around the idea that PD'd individuals can have success with therapy when it's their idea, their choice, and their commitment - and when the right therapist is in the mix.  It's generally a process that takes time.

When we propose solutions like therapy as the well-intentioned partner, we're still in "fixer" mode, which can backfire in a variety of ways. It sounds like you recognize this catch-22?

You mentioned a facetime call with her father that lasted an hour.  Is that typical?  How's your relationship with her father?  Have you ever discussed anything with him or anyone in her family?  So often, PD'd individuals' behaviors are rooted in the FOO - not sure if it would be helpful to you - or her family - or her - to pull on that thread a bit?

I ask because in my case, I had (actually continue to have) a good relationship with my uBPDxw's parents. Her dad once commented to me "we know all about it" in regard to her temper, etc.  I know blood is thicker than water, but her family was always very considerate to me during the marriage and during divorce process, and they continue to stay in touch...  it's been a small but meaningful consolation - that they know I'm not crazy or viewed as a one-dimensional villain... even though that's the role my uBPDxw might cast for me, in order to justify her own behavior.

I know it can be risky to explore this sort of discussion with your partner's family - in my case, I was glad to open up while still seeking solutions. We were at a point where it was no longer a secret that the marriage was rocky - and in my fixer mentality it felt like one more thing to try in the spirit of leaving no stone unturned. I never asked anyone to take my side or anything like that, I merely expressed concern for my then wife, and expressed openness and willingness to listen to any concerns, or inputs, or insights her family might want to share. Honestly, nothing really came from that except for a bit of goodwill. I wasn't expecting magic bullets at that point.

It sounds like, as your ID suggests, that you do have hope to recover or improve - so the Bettering board might have different and, well, better inputs.  The regular participants on the various boards do bring a slightly different POV...

Of course we'll be here anytime if you'd like to continue this thread here on the Conflicted board...

[Stuckinhope]

Thanks, EyesUp. Maybe I should post over there as well. It does feel a bit concerning if there are virtually no success stories on a board like this. Am I just pouring more time and energy into something that barely has a chance? I know what I see here isn't necessarily representative of the population, but still...

Yeah, her family are quite onboard with the situation in the sense that they know about her issues. They're not a very academic family so to speak, so the whole idea about the particular diagnosis, treatment etc. was maybe a bit foreign to them. Mental health issues are also still a bit taboo in Korean society as far as I can tell, and they never sought any therapy or treatment for her. When she was depressed some years back (not clinically diagnosed), they basically just let her stay with them in their apartment for a year.

But her parents and younger brother have been on the receiving end of her rages and disordered behaviour forever. They're always very supportive of me, whenever there is a conflict - but they also never advocate or suggest that we should consider ending things. In fact one of our go-to's for managing high-conflict have been to call her father, since she sometimes feels like that helped her. Sometimes it has also escalated things, since he obviously doesn't have any magic cure for her episodes. A lot of times it has also riled her up a lot that they're "on my side" so much, and in general she has a lot of unresolved anger towards them. Her relationship with them has improved, but she still gets triggered a lot of the time, when she speaks to them.

About the treatment stuff and staying in fixer mode...yeah, I know it's not ideal. With the first round of therapy it was still me insisting (after suicidal threats), but she wasn't given any labels that time around. I think for her it felt more like something she was invested in, and had chosen herself. When she started extroverting her emotional issues a couple of years ago i.e. raging at me and others, like I mentioned in the original post, I insisted on going through the system. It has definitely challenged her self-perception massively to have this BPD label now, and she has blamed me and my mom a lot for it (she is a nurse and was the first to suggest BPD as a possibility).

In terms of where I'm at, and where this post/problem belongs on these boards...honestly, I just don't know at this point. Having a few days to myself just reminded me of the things I'm missing. Feeling safe at home, being able to focus on things, keep the place more tidy. Just feeling in control again, and beginning to experience some momentum in the things I do. She came back Sunday night, and it was her birthday yesterday. I did a bunch of things to make it nice for her. She appreciated it all, but then I say the wrong thing, and she starts to turn again. Thankfully we managed to de-escalate, but it's just a spectre hanging around everything we do.

Being completely free of this whole gun-to-my-head feeling I live with a lot of the time just seems like the only real choice still. Like it's the adult choice, and yet I write that now, but I keep finding reasons not to leave. Both ones with merit and a number of the codependent ones I'm sure. Like we came so far together, and she is doing the therapy now. But then at the same time she still questions the value of it now and again, and yesterday she decided not to go due to an upcoming exam on Friday. I understand the choice, but I don't get the sense that she thinks of the therapy as something essential?

I just don't know. You asked me earlier how I feel about having 100 % vote in my own life choices, and honestly I don't feel that great about it right now. I get conflicted about whether I'm really stuck in hoping that we can make it together, or stuck in hoping that I won't have to make a decision of this magnitude alone.

My mom asked me the other day when I'm going to start taking myself seriously. I understand why she would say that, especially since she herself tolerated my dads checking in, checking out behaviour for years (several affairs etc.), until he left her. My step-dad also had serious problems with mood-swings and rigidity. She ended up leaving him, when she realized that he was - on the whole - making her life worse. Difference being that none of them ever really committed to much in the way of therapy or actively pursuing personal change in order to make the relationship work.

If my wife came to me now, and said that she couldn't do it anymore, and wanted to end it...I think I may just accept the decision? Invite the sorrow in and begin wrapping things up. I have wanted to leave so, so many times, but the fact that she wants to stay together so badly keeps fueling my own "decision" to keep at it, I think.

[EyesUp]

@Stuck

No problem to keep this thread going, just wanted to make sure you're aware of the different boards and getting the support you need.  You definitely seem conflicted, and so this is 100% the right place to be.

As I read your last post, my own experience came flooding back - there were a few times my uBPDxw went away for the weekend - usually to visit her sister - and I would suddenly have... peace.  I remember the feeling as those weekends would come to an end and my xw would return - slightly anxious about what to expect. Will she be in a good mood, or something else? And yet I was so against divorce / committed to the relationship, that I never stopped to consider my options - either within the relationship or outside of it.  I wish I had learned about setting boundaries much sooner.

It was interesting to learn about your mom's comment/question and a bit about your FOO.  Would you say that aspects of your dynamic with your wife mirror you mom's experience with your dad?  Do you still have a relationship with your dad?  When your mom makes a comment like this, do you feel like she's supportive of you?  Or critical?

In your last sentence, it sounds like you you're ok with ending the relationship, or accepting the end of the relationship, if you know that your wife also agrees and will take some ownership for the decision. Is that right?  It sounds like you're protecting her feelings, or deferring to her in this decision.  And that sounds like what might happen in a healthy relationship - there should be some mutual aspect, sharing of responsibility...

I completely relate to this - When you're in a caretaker role, making the decision to leave is the most counter intuitive thing. There may also be an impulse to avoid blame (and I bet you've had more than your fair share of blame). And of course it's impossible, or at least feels impossible, to have a collaborative discussion about this sort of thing with your partner...  and yet, if your wife stated that she wanted a divorce while in a rage, that would also be hard to accept - am I right? 

I don't know if this will be helpful, but in my case, I had finally realized and accepted that the relationship would end. I didn't know how or when to approach my wife about it, but I knew that I had to pull back to make this change. Then, the most amazing thing happened: I finally filed for divorce but had no idea when the filing would be processed, and I did not want to discuss anything with my wife until the filing was recorded and recognized by the court. In the meantime, my wife perceived the change - and so she decided to file for divorce. Amazingly, her complaint was received and logged by the court first.

I have to admit - I was incredibly relieved because I intuitively understood that this meant I did not have to formally reject my wife or take sole responsibility for the decision to end the marriage. Selfish? Maybe. But navigating out of codependency requires a bit of selfishness, and in any case there is no "normal" or "mutual" way to make this type of decision with a disordered partner...  We don't really hear about BPD relationships that end amicably - rather, we hear about why it's necessary to go NC...

Glad you were able to navigate through the birthday... hopefully you can find more solo time to explore how you're feeling about all this.

[Stuckinhope]

Thank you for your replies, Eyes. It's really helpful to be able to share this with someone out there as it happens. Some level of catharsis at least and a place for reflection.

My wife got triggered by a movie last night with themes of emotional abuse, which with hindsight of course we shouldn't have put on. We ended up having a pretty big fight, and going to bed at 3 AM. Having to worry about whether or not watching a movie in itself can cause a conflict of this magnitude is a great example of what these kind of relationships are like. I feel so drained today, like this depressed and flat feeling just swallows me up, whenever we have this kind of conflict.

About my FOO, I have a pretty distant relationship with my dad. We text around holidays, birthdays and so on. Very rarely see him. He's always been absent in my life, and my parents got divorced when I was still a child. I don't see so much of my own relationship in what they had, although my mother was definitely functioning as a caretaker for him. She rarely questioned him though, and they didn't have a lot of fights or falling out. Some of his affairs happened before I was born, and they had a break at that time. Other than that I think she just soldiered on and tried to see the good things, like being a parent, her job etc.
My moms second marriage to my stepdad had more similarities to my own, since he was quite disordered himself in terms of temper, shutting down, refusing therapy, family talks etc. I couldn't stand him to be honest. I lived in that for a long time without any resolutions apart from a kind of cold war between him and me, and my mother trying to keep things on an even keel, until I eventually moved out.

My mom has seen my wifes disordered episodes up close, and her opinion has changed quite a lot as a result. She has questioned my decision(s) to keep going several times. Not in a disrespectful way I wouldn't say, but she is critical...and probably worried that I'm on some level repeating her own mistake of sticking around with her second husband for 10+ years. To be honest, the few people I have shared my situation with, can maybe understand why I've kept trying, but all of them have also clearly urged me to consider my options. It does impact me for sure, only my wifes parents are so one sided in their support for us staying together. Sometimes I wish my mom would be more supportive too, but if the roles were reversed...I would feel at least as concerned and frustrated as her, I think.

If this relationship is to end, it will have to be me who ends it. I have only recently started to approach the place you were in, when you knew for sure that it couldn't last between you and your ex. Happy to hear that you lucked out in the end (the circumstances considered I mean), but because of the visa situation my wife can't stay in the country, if we divorce. We can't even separate, or be registered at different addresses, as far as I understand. She is studying, and has tried to build a life here, which would basically be over, if I decided to divorce her. Financially I was carrying things too, since she returned to school, so it's kind of a messy situation.

I'm not saying that I'm going to stay because of those things, but it does complicate any practical disentanglement, going no contact etc. I know I'm not responsible for her life. In the end she chose to come here herself with the knowledge that it might not work out in the end. But I also have no desire to hurt her, or take away the progress she has made here. And of course there is the whole emotional side of it, which I can barely connect with at the moment.

I hate feeling like this. Drained of energy and just emotionally exhausted. If only we could have that kind of discussion about whats going on with mutual respect and both of us taking responsibility for what to do in this situation. But yeah, like you said, I guess that doesn't happen with disordered people. It would be so incredibly helpful if it could though...just holding hands, and burying the love together in a manner that allows both of us to continue on different paths in life in the best way possible. I guess that's just not the way these things go.

If you don't mind, can you elaborate a bit on how you felt after it was finally over and how you managed? I get the impression that a lot of people here experience breaking up as being incredibly, overwhelmingly difficult. I do worry about how hard it would hit me, and whether or not I could even navigate that kind of emotional and practical upheaval of my life at this time...

[EyesUp]

@Stuck,

My situation was a bit different, in that I was mostly focused on the kids at the time of separation. Because we share responsibility for the kids, NC was never an option.

However, there were a few things I can mention that may be more generally relevant in any separation...

For a time, I'd still respond to seeing my xw's phone number pop up for a call or text as good news...  It literally felt good to see her number.  We were together for most of 25 years, married for 14 - and there were many positives over that time.  So one of the surprises was that I caught myself responding to her - calls and texts - in a habitual, reflexive, positive way.  It was like, once the separation and the escalated conflict that accompanied it were over, I could be a bit sentimental and allow myself to miss my xw, or miss the relationship.

In any case, I recognized that this could be a slippery slope - and likely indicated that some codependency tendrils still had suction cups on my brain.  So I doubled down on all the activities that help to break that behavior - reconnecting with old friends and family, reading something other than recovery advice, getting back into hobbies and things I enjoy, trying new things, diving into work...   

It didn't happen immediately, but over 6-9 months I found that I was increasingly engaged in work and my own life, and thinking about the past less and less.

My T strongly encouraged me to get out and see people.  Not dating, but simply being social.  I think my xw had somewhat alienated my friends and family, and so reconnecting on those fronts was important.  It was hugely affirming to find that without exception old friends were glad to reconnect and sympathetic. Some had surprisingly candid comments about my xw, and it was interesting to learn that people were more perceptive than I had realized. I went back on facebook for the first time in years, with fresh eyes.  My xw and I disconnected online, and so it was amazing to be able to engage friends, former classmates, etc., without my xw looking over my shoulder and somehow moderating those relationships...  that felt quite freeing.

After the divorce was final, I learned that my college girlfriend, who I had not spoken with since before I got married, and who lives on the other side of the country, also finalized a divorce about a month before mine...  we traded a few messages.  At some point I mentioned that I was going to Barcelona for work.  She said "I'll meet you there" - and did.  As post-divorce relationships go, it could not have been better.  We weren't dating, per se, but we had a level of rapport and trust and comfort and mutual empathy that was just right.  Not sure that's easily replicated, but it was an important part of my healing.  I think the general take-away is:  At some point, be open to a new relationship and date with mutual intentions.

I know that's getting way ahead here, but I think it can be useful to envision what life might be like down the road.  What do you want it to look like?

I am so grateful for my reboot and "second act" - I didn't want it, didn't know it was even an option - and yet, I'm here to tell you that life not only continues but in many ways it can get better. 

To sum it up, I went through a period of time where I missed my xw and/or ruminated a bit - but learned to "change the channel" and start looking forward instead of looking rearward.  I was fortunate to reconnect with friends and family. And I didn't rush into a new relationship.

[ForeverDad]

My thought will greatly depend upon two questions:  Is your wife an adult?  Do you not share children together?

If both are yes then a proper perspective on a practical basis is that your spouse is an adult and her decisions have consequences.  If she truly had your interests (and hers) in mind then she would not be acting-out (harming you more than herself) to such extremes.

Due to being in such a dysfunctional and unhealthy environment, ponder this... does your emotional and mental health have less priority (or importance) than where she lives or schools or how long you can suffer with her?

In other words, can she do whatever she feels like doing while you must sit back sacrificing yourself because you seeking to care for yourself may hinder things that benefit her?

[Stuckinhope]

My thought will greatly depend upon two questions:  Is your wife an adult?  Do you not share children together?

We're both very much adults (agewise anyway), and there are no children involved. What you're saying is not wrong - I am going downhill here, and I need to take responsibility for that. It just feels damn hard to do so on my end right now. I really don't have a lot going my way in life, and it's been like that for a while. Limited family connections, very few social connections, difficult job prospects. Ending the relationship seems almost like the final nail in the coffin - the last stage before freefall.

I know it probably isn't, and maybe there is a better life waiting on the other side of however long it would take me to recover. But right now it feels seismic. I've been fighting for our chance to have a life together for years now, even having the right to live in the same country - and this is how it all ends? It just feels like a huge loss emotionally and a massive defeat as a "life project" at the same time.

I know there is little unique about this. I read some of the stories here, and my situation is by no means the most challenging. I just feel so enmeshed in it, and it's been defining my path for so long that in some ways I don't really know what my life is about anymore with her gone. Or it feels like that right now anyway.

In any case, I recognized that this could be a slippery slope - and likely indicated that some codependency tendrils still had suction cups on my brain.  So I doubled down on all the activities that help to break that behavior - reconnecting with old friends and family, reading something other than recovery advice, getting back into hobbies and things I enjoy, trying new things, diving into work...

 

Makes sense. I think that's what I was feeling elements of last weekend, when I had the apartment to myself. That there is some hope for recovery in redirecting myself to other things. Getting back into shape, discovering and perhaps rediscovering both people and hobbies.

Also I've had one foot out of the door for so long. Whenever that feeling disappeared for a while - usually because of a good period or experience together - I'm right back into it, when another explosion happens. Being free of that rollercoaster would be a big thing, just being able to tell myself that the decision is made now, and I'm out of that whole cycle. I remember someone describing it like building emotional sand castle on a podcast at one point. Washed away every time, and you're back to square one. I really feel that one.

I know that's getting way ahead here, but I think it can be useful to envision what life might be like down the road.  What do you want it to look like?

I am so grateful for my reboot and "second act" - I didn't want it, didn't know it was even an option - and yet, I'm here to tell you that life not only continues but in many ways it can get better.

Happy to hear that, Eyes. I hope I'll get there some day too. Thank you for your support so far, it really does mean a lot.

I terms of a vision for my future...not sure I can think that far ahead right now. Just a feeling of stability and some surplus energy day to day would be big for me to be honest. Some sense of direction, feeling connected to people again. This loneliness is just devastating. I'd give a lot to have a friend who shared some of my interests again. Really basic stuff is what I'm missing at the moment.

[EyesUp]

I terms of a vision for my future...not sure I can think that far ahead right now. Just a feeling of stability and some surplus energy day to day would be big for me to be honest. Some sense of direction, feeling connected to people again. This loneliness is just devastating. I'd give a lot to have a friend who shared some of my interests again. Really basic stuff is what I'm missing at the moment.

Quick note to let you know that you're not alone, and that this forum is here for you.

I think I mentioned that I was disconnected from myself - family, friends, everything.  As I went through this process, I was also apprehensive re: loneliness, but it turned out that I was merely apprehensive of being with myself - as I reconnected with so many things I'd avoided during my marriage (movies, music, comics, photography, cooking, friends, projects around the house, etc etc etc.), I found out that my company wasn't that bad when I stopped worrying about what my uBPDxw thinks/thought and started doing things that I like.  Sometimes with old friends / new friends...

We're better company for others when we are better company to ourselves.

Two things that helped me get there were podcasts - which I never had time for, and also Reddit - which can be the wild west, but also has some engaging communities for whatever interests you may have...

I think you know this, but I'll say it anyway:  Recovery happens one day at a time.

[Stuckinhope]

Quick note to let you know that you're not alone, and that this forum is here for you.

I think I mentioned that I was disconnected from myself - family, friends, everything.  As I went through this process, I was also apprehensive re: loneliness, but it turned out that I was merely apprehensive of being with myself - as I reconnected with so many things I'd avoided during my marriage (movies, music, comics, photography, cooking, friends, projects around the house, etc etc etc.), I found out that my company wasn't that bad when I stopped worrying about what my uBPDxw thinks/thought and started doing things that I like.  Sometimes with old friends / new friends...

We're better company for others when we are better company to ourselves.

Two things that helped me get there were podcasts - which I never had time for, and also Reddit - which can be the wild west, but also has some engaging communities for whatever interests you may have...

I think you know this, but I'll say it anyway:  Recovery happens one day at a time.

I know it's been a while, but thank you for the encouraging words nonetheless. They meant something then and they still do now.

I ended up leaving home a couple of weeks ago to stay with mom, who lives outside of the city. I kind of thought about it as an extended timeout that would probably end up with us breaking apart, but tried to keep an open mind. Obviously it was incredibly triggering for my wife that I would be away, so it was total mayhem, when I told her. In the end she did let me go the day after though.

We ended up having this incredibly weird last evening together, which felt basically normal after she calmed down again. Eating takeout, watching a movie etc. Next morning she barely said a word to me before I left.

I promised we could write a letter to each other in order to stay in touch a bit. At the time I have to admit I mostly just did it, so she would let me go a bit easier. Basically she said she would unintentionally discard me, if we didn't promise to communicate in some way.

In the end the letters we exchanged were very different. I tried to express why my doubts continued, the sadness I felt, memories I cherished and so on. I felt like hers was just another laundry list of all the things I did wrong, my mental health problems, her efforts to work on herself and all her sacrifices. And a bit of things she missed and still wanted to do together sprinkled in there.

Her letter really brought up all the difficult, resentful disappointment that had been hiding under all the sadness and emotional confusion. After letting the dust settle a bit, I wrote her back that it was over for me and that I wasn't coming back again. We're meeting online at the end of the week to discuss the practicalities.

I feels unreal, and it's like part of my brain still thinks we're getting back together. I just can't go back again. I really need to know what my life can be like, if I let her go. But I can't remember ever feeling so much pain and emptiness before in my life. It's like I swallowed a black hole or something. Maybe it's better than my mind racing with thoughts of injustice, fear, shame and contempt all the time?

I read through the breakup section, and there is a lot of good stuff there. I think I'm going to post on the detaching forum as well, maybe it will help a bit to express it there too.

[EyesUp]

Thanks for the update.

I'm sure many of us can relate to the discomfort you describe.

In my case, I think I had to re-learn how to feel certain things.  Just reading about your experience is bringing it back...  For me, I think it was a mix of so many emotions - many that I wasn't really able to have while in the relationship - that contributed to that "black hole" feeling.

The uncertainty, combined with sadness/loneliness, combined with some possible guilt/shame/disappointment, combined with...   you get the idea. It can take a while to sort it all out. 

Ultimately, you probably need to let yourself feel all of this in order to process it, so you can move past it...  Hopefully that helps, somehow.   

[Stuckinhope]

I'm just a bit worried about drowning in it all right now. Like I'm already quite depressed, but...there is still a ways to go on that scale, you know?

I have a therapist on the sideline and a few people who will listen, so hopefully that can sustain a bit. Maybe medication could be an option too, if it comes to that. The more I tell the story, the more it feels like it's really happening. Like writing in here again as well. I think I'm a bit scared of that unreal feeling though - like my subconscious is still sort of railing against the reality of what's happening, even though I'm the one doing it.

It's like it should have happened years ago, and was close to happening so, so many times, but I always backed down. And now it finally did happen for real...or am I going to go back on it again in the end, like I did all those other times? I'm almost a bit afraid to talk to her this week, because whenever I even read anything she writes, I feel like I'm stepping back into that room with her.

It feels like I learned to mistrust myself and my own decisions on some basic level. Is this connected to the emotional abuse I've suffered? Is it some broken part of myself that's rearing its head, now that all of this is actually happening?

I don't know, I hope my therapist can help me with this stuff. She offered me an emergence session soon, so at least I have that to hold on to for now. Just wish I was talking to her before I was talking to my wife.

Thanks for replying so quickly by the way. It's such a big help that a place like this exists.

[EyesUp]

The more I tell the story, the more it feels like it's really happening. Like writing in here again as well.
"Talking therapy" is a thing... it's good to get it out, one way or another. Sometimes giving voice to an idea or a feeling is the best way to process it. Or at least, begin to process it.

I think I'm a bit scared of that unreal feeling though - like my subconscious is still sort of railing against the reality of what's happening, even though I'm the one doing it.

A common theme in these relationships is that the disordered partner's emotions suck up all available time/energy/air and there's no room left for the other partner's feelings.  Recovery can mean reconnecting with your own emotions.  It sounds like that's happening for you - when confronted with the enormity of what's happening, you're feeling something. Does that sound right?  My suggestion is: Let it happen.  Find somewhere to go have a good scream, cry, whatever.  And keep posting, and talking to your T.

I'm almost a bit afraid to talk to her this week, because whenever I even read anything she writes, I feel like I'm stepping back into that room with her.

Any ideas about how to manage this?  Is it absolutely necessary to open every email?  Detaching is a process, too.

It feels like I learned to mistrust myself and my own decisions on some basic level. Is this connected to the emotional abuse I've suffered? Is it some broken part of myself that's rearing its head, now that all of this is actually happening?

Have you read up on codependency?  I suggest that you explore "attachment styles" and see if anything resonates with you. 

I don't know, I hope my therapist can help me with this stuff. She offered me an emergence session soon, so at least I have that to hold on to for now. Just wish I was talking to her before I was talking to my wife.

Glad to know that you have a T and a session coming up...  If there are specific things you'd like to try get out before then, we're here.

If you're able to share - what's driving the urgency re: talking to your wife?  I ask because you're dealing with big things that typically take a while to come into focus and play out.  It's often helpful to think in terms of weeks or months or years, rather than hours or days...  So if you want to explore things with your T before speaking with your W, is there a way that you can reset your expectations?  Or your W's expectations?   

Sometimes a perceived urgency is driven by anxiety and/or codependency.  Can you take a step back and consider what's driving the urgency in this situation?  Unlike New Year's Day, which arrives at a predictable interval that's entirely out of our control - there is no predefined schedule for how/when to make changes in a relationship. In other words - you can set the schedule. Need more time? OK, take more time. Does that make sense?

[Stuckinhope]

Any ideas about how to manage this?  Is it absolutely necessary to open every email?  Detaching is a process, too.

She is only sending me messages in one place, so I decided not to open anything there to avoid getting caught up in her thinking again. I've kept myself from looking at it so far this week, though I still regularly have thoughts about what she might have written. But at least she isn't bombarding me like other times, where I couldn't even keep my phone on.

I suppose there is some level of perceived urgency on my part. The reason we're talking tomorrow is because she kept pushing to have a face-to-face conversation at first, which I decided I wasn't up for. So the urgency is from her originally, while she was still talking about potentially reversing this breakup.
I could tell her that I'm not up for it, but I also kind of want to get it done, you know? Maybe partially to see her, but also to discuss some initial steps on how to disengage from each other in terms of housing, finances, the legal stuff and so on. Maybe as another step of making the break feel more certain or real too?

Have you read up on codependency?  I suggest that you explore "attachment styles" and see if anything resonates with you.

I read the information page on this website about it, but not so much about how it's connected to attachment styles. I'll look into that.

I'm not sure exactly what to concentrate on with my therapist for the coming session. But I think this unreal feeling, the self-doubt and depressed feelings I'm experiencing could all be relevant. And perhaps exploring the reason, I got into this relationship in the first place and what needs or personal issues were potentially behind that.

I suppose we both felt kind of lost or adrift in life back then. Being with each other and hanging on to this connection we had, or seemed to have at least, I think it gave me some greater purpose or meaning outside of myself. Staying with the codependent theme, it definitely boosted my self-esteem that I could help and counsel her, and that she was so interested in talking and listening to me in general.

I know that isn't all there was too it, and we did do a lot of big stuff together in life so far. But it's hard not to feel like a bit of an idiot for not picking up on these patterns and warning signs early on. I'm sure that's just the depressed and self-critical part of me chiming in, but still. I really thought we could help "heal" each other sort of. Keep building on our connection and find happiness together...but yeah, I do believe we both gave everything we had to give at least.