Interesting to listen to recordings/ and some advice please?

[CravingPeace]

Hi All,
I have started recording conversations with my uwBPD just to see what is really going on as it is hard to analyze in the moment due to emotions.
What I heard is actually I was being quite logical and fair (albeit I was being defensive), but there were multiple examples of her saying things then denying, and if I answered a criticism fairly, she just swapped onto another point, then another then another. It went on for an hour.

Quite extraordinary to hear.

One example was I flagged something she had done which might hurt them, she said I don't bother to tell you when you do things I think are wrong for the kids. I said but I want you to tell me if you think I do something that harms them as I don't want them harmed. She said my therapist told me it will only harm your relationship with them so i don't bother/care. I pushed back and said no I don't agree with your therapist. If a wife is being abusive to a husband (as she had in the day then denied), it doesn't just effect the relationship with the kids and mother, it will shape how they grow up and perceive relationships and what is ok. Maybe they will end up being abused by their wife and think it is ok as they learned from us? She then said I never said my therapist told me that. It was literally less than a minute from her saying it to denying it then she shifted onto something else.

In the morning she was in floods of tears and admitted to what she said that I had said was abusive, said she is so sad, she sees her mother (uNPD/uBPD not sure) and sees the exact same victim complex in her mother as she has, and her brother has. She said she remembers being happy and not like that as a young kid but something changed as an older kid and her mindset shifted. She said she isn't suicidal but she guesses not far off it. She is soo tired of feeling like this inside, and being with these thoughts all the time. She is sick of all her friendships people try and fix her (including me) and she pushes them away, my role as a caretaker I am trying hard to change. She asked why does she attract people trying to fix her? But she is desperate not to get divorced and wants to fix herself (and me to fix myself), but she finds therapy so hard, and did recently try and quit as she said it is too expensive (as an excuse as I pay and I never said it was too expensive), her therapist then offered her pro bono as she needs to be having therapy. She feels like she will never sort it and get better. I tried to reassure her that it is so positive what she is realizing, and she can get better with therapy.

She thinks she is just highly sensitive, I stupidly suggested DBT as highly sensitive is linked to borderline. She exploded, and said it was really offensive. I didn't know she knew what Borderline was. I won't mention it again. Me being a caretaker again trying to fix vs just listening and comforting ! DOH

I guess it is really positive she realizes she is unwell. The issue is she doesn't see the gas lighting, manipulation and constantly circular arguing stuff she fires at me. The recording has reinforced I MUST MUST NOT ARGUE OR DEFEND. It gets me nowhere, I can hear myself saying logical and reasoned stuff, and being confronted by nonsensical, and illogical arguments, and point by point I put them down etc etc but it gets nowhere. I know I need to play my role and not JADE and SET and I have been mostly , but it is hard.  The relationship is just so dead, it is hard to think of it being positive and coming back from where it is. But I will keep trying for now. 3 kids that need me.

The issue is that started yesterday is I was trying to bring up that abusive behavior is not acceptable and she denied it and then it went around and around in circles while she she said if she had said that it was because I do X and Y and Z. I am getting much stronger when she brings things up to not argue/defend/justify etc and it goes much better. But how do I bring up my concerns without her getting super defensive and then turning on me and attacking? Surely I shouldn't just accept being called names, sworn at or told to shut up in front of the children?

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[Chief Drizzt]

I too started recording my wife when things start to get “heated” between us.  It’s interesting because opposite from you I am the one who keeps getting accused of abuse - emotional abuse.  I don’t know what to think about it.

We’ve also got three kids but we’ve hit the finish line with them.  Our first two have been out for a few years and our last one is in her first year of college (which is away from us).  Because of that I tend not to stress out as much anymore - but when the kids were younger and at home I was in the same boat as you.  They were the priority and I never  would even think of leaving because of them.  I’ve spent a lot of time “covering” for my wife - but since they are grown they have all told me they have known for a long time that she was “off.”  Your kids will gain this perspective as they grow up - which is unfortunate but they will know what you have done for them and gain an appreciation for you as they grow into adulthood. 

In fact it was my daughter who mentioned BPD to me right after she turned 18.  She was taking a psychology class where she learned about it and brought it my attention.  I never knew exactly what I was dealing with until that day.

 I commend you in your desire to hang in there for them and encourage you to continue to do so.

[Augustine]

I don’t know if this is of any assistance, as the end of my relationship is churning far in my wake now.

As their perceptions are linked to transient emotional states, the best course of action is to accommodate and respect that whatever they are thinking is their objective reality.

I didn’t fully understand that I was confronting BPD in our final years together, but I do know that my “Gotcha!” moments (when I could physically prove her irrationality) were as eagerly received as a mouthful of Cod Liver oil.

No one warms to the idea of receiving something unpalatable, and BPD is no exception.

What I can say with authority is that arguing these points (or virtually any point) was counter-productive. Towards the end, I had far more success being conciliatory, or if the situation was becoming too inflammatory, disengaging completely, but with an explanation why I felt the need to do so.

As I mentioned, I only understood the true gravity of the situation after the fact, but I did get some much-needed relief by adopting the latter two tactics.

[SaltyDawg]

Recordings...

I have done it to document my wife's crazy and sometimes illegal behaviors as she taunted me to do so as she claimed she didn't do these behaviors.

I have also listened to them, a day or two after the incident only to discover what I called a 'pre-triggered' state (equivalent to taking the safety off a weapon when pointed at me) and to when she explodes with her episode of one or more symptoms of BPD.  I have adjusted my behaviors, a form of walking on eggshells, to detect this pre-triggering state, prior to explosion, to change my behavior so she doesn't explode as often (some are inevitable).

I have used the recordings to figure her out, and to validate her exaggerated narrative has been so distorted to the point of being a false narrative which feels a lot like being gaslit (which is an intentional act; however, my wife is unaware she is doing this as her feelings distort her facts) - so I know it is a false narrative, and for the most part I ignore it, or use SET communication, or a more powerful communication, one that drops the 'T' in SET that only focuses only on her feelings while she is in an episode with support and empathy or is about to have an episode (something I learned from listening to these recordings).

Like your wife, she knows she has issues, and is actively working on them with her therapists and has improved greatly; although, there are lapses, and we had a major one yesterday; however, she has been able to recover a bit today on it, much faster than she did a year ago.

To summarize, I only use the recording to verify my version of reality when I am being attacked with what feels like being gaslit, DARVO, and other emotionally abusive and manipulative behaviors AND to document my wife's behaviors in the unlikely, yet very possible, event that she goes to the authorities with distorted accusations, you can use the recordings to defend your  version of events.  I do not use them to show my wife is wrong, as that will only inflame the situation.  My wife is aware I do record, and it has encouraged 'better' behavior in the long run, and she has taunted me on several occasions effectively giving me permission to do so.

If you have more specific questions, please ask, and I will do my best to answer them.

Be sure to be kind to yourself, and practice self-care, whatever that might look like for you.

Take care.

SD

[kells76]

Hi CravingPeace, thanks for updating us on how things are going.

I guess it is really positive she realizes she is unwell. The issue is she doesn't see the gas lighting, manipulation and constantly circular arguing stuff she fires at me. The recording has reinforced I MUST MUST NOT ARGUE OR DEFEND. It gets me nowhere, I can hear myself saying logical and reasoned stuff, and being confronted by nonsensical, and illogical arguments, and point by point I put them down etc etc but it gets nowhere. I know I need to play my role and not JADE and SET and I have been mostly , but it is hard.  The relationship is just so dead, it is hard to think of it being positive and coming back from where it is. But I will keep trying for now. 3 kids that need me.

I wonder if the fact that she doesn't see those behaviors is part of the BPD. That is -- it's not that she has BPD, but despite always having BPD, maybe she'll have some insight and see what she's doing... maybe it's that the lack of insight is a hallmark of the disorder she has. So when you observe her not seeing all the things she's doing, you're observing her having a mental illness.

I think it's good that you've been able to use the recordings to learn about what you've tried that isn't effective (approaches that are escalating), and what you've tried that works better: like not JADE-ing when stuff is "hot", and using S-E-T to communicate your needs when things are "cool".

In the recordings, are you are able to see/hear when the interaction is "cool", when it's ramping up to "warm", when it's "hot", and when it goes back down to "cool" again?

Different approaches can be more or less successful at different points of the conflict/interaction. For example, validation isn't always recommended or helpful at the "hot" stage of the interaction, though listening to the feelings behind your W's words and validating those feelings may be helpful in the "cool"/"pre-warm" stages, to bring it back down.

The issue is that started yesterday is I was trying to bring up that abusive behavior is not acceptable and she denied it and then it went around and around in circles while she she said if she had said that it was because I do X and Y and Z. I am getting much stronger when she brings things up to not argue/defend/justify etc and it goes much better. But how do I bring up my concerns without her getting super defensive and then turning on me and attacking? Surely I shouldn't just accept being called names, sworn at or told to shut up in front of the children?

I'm guessing that you tried bringing that up either in a verbal discussion or in texts/emails? So, with words?

I agree with you that no, you don't have to accept abusive behavior.

I wonder if there would be a difference between bringing up your concerns verbally, and "bringing up your concerns" via actions under your control.

Ideally, you would like your communication of "I'm concerned about abusive behavior and I don't choose to accept it" to be effective -- right?

And you've tried sharing that verbally, and she got defensive.

Could you maybe start with action-based communication of your concern? What I mean by that is -- what can you do, under your control, to decline to accept abusive behavior? (I'm not saying that what she does is OK -- not at all).

It may be that while she can "talk her way out" of hearing (or reading your) concerns by being defensive, she doesn't have control over what you do to get away from her behavior. If you are able to repeat your actions over time, it may signal to her, nonverbally, that abusive behavior isn't acceptable... without any verbal discussion necessary.

Is that something you've tried, or might be willing to try?

[CravingPeace]

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments.

It may be that while she can "talk her way out" of hearing (or reading your) concerns by being defensive, she doesn't have control over what you do to get away from her behavior. If you are able to repeat your actions over time, it may signal to her, nonverbally, that abusive behavior isn't acceptable... without any verbal discussion necessary.

Is that something you've tried, or might be willing to try?

I guess the last example that started me wanting to discuss wasn't the worst of her behavior ever. She was getting emotional saying sarcastically "another great day out then" in front of the kids as one kid was cold and wanted to go the shorter way home, and she wanted to go the longer. I just said "Come on look at it it's beautiful here" to try and lighten the situation and so the youngest wouldn't feel guilty about making mum go the shorter way which I guess was invalidating to her. But I was just sharing my opinion.  I hadn't realized she was dysregulated and I guess I could have just given her space, but I don't want the kids hearing that, and she often just suddenly flips on a day out when we are all having fun over something minor so I guess it triggers me. I was taken aback and said are you talking to me, she said "yes just shut up".

So although not the most offensive behavior ever, It did effect me . I know I know, I could have validated her emotion that the she felt bad, but it caught me off guard. Being told to shut up in front of the kids wasn't a good look I don't want them thinking thats ok to speak like that. So that is what I tried to verbally communicate later when the kids were in bed. Usually what I do is just shut up when told to, but I have done that for years, and I don't want to just accept rude and offensive behavior. So what action could I take? Just walking away almost is doing what she says and letting it slide. I kind of need an action that says I am not ok with being told to shut up. Any ideas? If I had asked her not to say that to me at the time it would have escalated big time, so I thought waiting till she was calm was the best bet. But then she just denies it. Any advice on what action to take and how best to validate her in the first place would be better so I can deescalate it first? Thx

[campbembpd]

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments.

I guess the last example that started me wanting to discuss wasn't the worst of her behavior ever. She was getting emotional saying sarcastically "another great day out then" in front of the kids as one kid was cold and wanted to go the shorter way home, and she wanted to go the longer. I just said "Come on look at it it's beautiful here" to try and lighten the situation and so the youngest wouldn't feel guilty about making mum go the shorter way which I guess was invalidating to her. But I was just sharing my opinion.  I hadn't realized she was dysregulated and I guess I could have just given her space, but I don't want the kids hearing that, and she often just suddenly flips on a day out when we are all having fun over something minor so I guess it triggers me. I was taken aback and said are you talking to me, she said "yes just shut up".

So although not the most offensive behavior ever, It did effect me . I know I know, I could have validated her emotion that the she felt bad, but it caught me off guard. Being told to shut up in front of the kids wasn't a good look I don't want them thinking thats ok to speak like that. So that is what I tried to verbally communicate later when the kids were in bed. Usually what I do is just shut up when told to, but I have done that for years, and I don't want to just accept rude and offensive behavior. So what action could I take? Just walking away almost is doing what she says and letting it slide. I kind of need an action that says I am not ok with being told to shut up. Any ideas? If I had asked her not to say that to me at the time it would have escalated big time, so I thought waiting till she was calm was the best bet. But then she just denies it. Any advice on what action to take and how best to validate her in the first place would be better so I can deescalate it first? Thx

Others far more experienced will chime in I'm sure. I've been reading several books to do the same. My uBPDw has severe rages, overall hostility that's become unbearable.

One of the books is Stop caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist went over the Yale communication model. It says to practice with yourself, move onto your kids then try it with friends and family then when you feel competent try it with your BP/N1.

1. When _______ happens
2. I feel _________
3. I would like __________
4. Or I will need to _________

Its supposed to be beneficial when communicating with highly sensitive or manipulative people (which our BPDs are)

First state the observable fact, then clearly state your feelings about it, the third step is letting people know what you want, the book says you may be able to pause and not go to the fourth step if they choose to cooperate. The last, 4th step is not a threat or punishment, it's a statement of what you need to do to take care of yourself without the cooperation of the other person. One of the examples I liked was:

1. When I hear a loud voice and sharp words (not blaming or saying you statements)
2. I feel hurt, scared, angry (again not saying you)
3. I would like to be talked to in a quiet voice
Pause to see what they do
4. Or if you can't lower your voice I will need to excuse myself from this conversation

It's all theory to me. I'm really trying to understand and practice with myself. Seems easy on paper. So far as I've implemented tools from the books or therapy my wife just gets angry and tells me I sound like a therapist.

I hope someone else can chime in. One issue I'm sure we all experience is being in different situations. i.e. if I'm hope and my wife is screaming at me I can state that I need to leave if she can't lower her voice. If we're out at a family function an hour from home and she starts acting out I feel much more stuck. Like how to even start in a situation like that?

[CravingPeace]

It's all theory to me. I'm really trying to understand and practice with myself. Seems easy on paper. So far as I've implemented tools from the books or therapy my wife just gets angry and tells me I sound like a therapist.

Hahah this! Sorry not laughing at you, laughing at how similar these situations are. Thanks for the reminder. Last time I used dont JADE it was working until she said "Stop using your therapy on me", then I was completely side lined!

I do think saying "when I am told to shut up it makes me feel irrelevant and that I don't matter" would be a good one!