Couples Therapy/New Crisis

[HurtAndTired]

Hi all,

Since my last post on the "bettering" board, things have taken a turn for the worse and I have posted a parallel thread on the "conflicted" board. I mentioned in an earlier post on this boad that things had not gone well on Valentine's Day (apparently a very common experience for us here on BPDFamily), but the split that started on that day went on at a low simmer until it erupted in a major episode this past weekend.

To summarize, my dBPDw (I am now referring to her as diagnosed because I realized that when a former couples therapist diagnosed her with "emotional dysregulation disorder" this is a synonymous term for BPD) got really angry at me on V day because she spent a bunch of money that we don't have on a fancy lobster dinner and I got her chocolates. She took this to be an insult because I didn't spend enough money on her. She didn't go off the rails but was low-key dysregulated and generally unpleasant to be around for the next few days. Then came Friday.

I had had a really bad and stressful week. Things with my wife were not going well and things at work were pretty bad too. I bought some beers so that I could watch TV and unwind after we put our son to bed. It was my weekend off after all. She had to work the next day (she works every other weekend) and insisted that I not drink and that I come to bed at 9 PM when she was ready to go to bed. She said that she could not relax with me up and making noise. To be clear, this is not true. I had the TV turned so far down that I had to strain to hear the dialogue from my shows and I was in the first-floor living room while she was in the second-floor master bedroom. I even told her that I would stay up no later than midnight and that I would sleep in the guest room so as to not wake her up. She stomped off to bed and threw the  dog's bed out of the bedroom down to the bottom of the stairs, indicating that the dog was "my problem."

I did as I promised and was ready to go to bed at around midnight when the dog, who has epilepsy, started to have a seizure. I, of course, went to comfort the dog as he was seizing and had to get towels to clean up his pee (he loses control of his bladder during a seizure.) This woke up my wife and she came down the stairs like a bat out of hell with her eyes blazing. She was reading me the riot act about how she knew that I was going to wake her up. I was trying to explain that the dog was seizing and that he would have had the seizure no matter where he was and would have woken her up regardless. However, she wanted to make the argument about my "excessive drinking." To be clear, I drink once or twice a month and not to the point of being out of control. She, on the other hand, has been drinking daily "just a drink or two" for months. I drink only beer. She drinks mixed drinks and frequently goes to the kitchen to "refresh her drink" (basically pouring more liquor into her cup.) Who knows how much she is actually drinking, but I am sure it is more than one or two standard drinks per day.

At this point, I snapped and told her that I was tired of getting yelled at and was going to bed. She blocked me from leaving the room and tried to keep arguing with me. I told her that she needed to stop yelling at me and that she has no room to criticize me as she often stays up late drinking in the basement and listening to loud dance music (thank God she has switched from using the stereo to using earbuds.) She continued to yell at me and started stomping her feet and waving her arms around wildly. I told her that she needed to stop or she was going to wake up our son. I also said that she was throwing a temper tantrum and acting like an emotional toddler. That stunned her enough that I was able to get past her and get up the stairs to my "safe room" in the guest room.

She followed me up the stairs and was now accusing me of staying up "late" so that I could have an online affair and demanded to go through my phone. I told her I would not let her do that and that she needed to leave the room. She grabbed my phone and tried to grab my hand to unlock it with my fingerprint. I had to pull my hand away from her. She then tried to shove the phone in my face to unlock it with facial recognition and I had to turn my head into the pillow to stop her. I told her that if she didn't get off of me and leave the room I would have to call the police. That finally got her to leave and I was able to get a little sleep.

The rest of the weekend was spent in silent treatment mode. This continued until Monday night when right as I was preparing to go to bed, just after we put our S2 to bed, my 25-year-old stepson lets himself into the house and calls upstairs that he needs to talk to me. He is a professional powerlifter and has several bench press world records in his weight class. I am guessing you can all see where this is going.

I have been a father figure to this young man since he was 12 years old. I helped pay for his braces, put food in his belly, clothes on his back, and a roof over his head. I paid for half of his first car. I still pay for his car insurance and his cell phone. I was there for him in ways that his bio-dad never was and cared for him as if he were my own son. None of that mattered that night. He sat me down at the dining room table to talk to me "man to man" and told me that if he ever heard that I was drinking again, even a single beer, he would come over and "beat your a$$." I was so shocked I didn't know what to say except to ask why he would say such a thing. He told me that his mom told him that I got very drunk and was being verbally abusive and calling her a b!tch and a wh0re. I told him that he had been given bad information as none of that had happened, I also pointed out that his mom has been drinking every single night herself and is very abusive to me.

None of that mattered. All that mattered was that I had called the cops on his mom back in August and she had convinced him that I was a narcissist with a drinking problem who was abusing her in some kind of way for my sick enjoyment. He does not believe that his mom could be the one who has the drinking problem, be the perpetrator of abuse, and me the victim. He is a 25-year-old young man who is augmenting himself with testosterone shots (he told me that is measuring above 1500 ng/dl which is nearly double the maximum natural amount of test) and has been recruited as mom's flying monkey. When I regained composure I told him that making threats has consequences. I would have to stop paying for his car insurance and cell phone and if he didn't reconsider his words, I would have to take out a restraining order against him. I also told him that I understood that he thinks he is defending his mother, but that I am disappointed that he feels like he has to posture like a "tough guy" rather than using his words to actually talk about his concerns. I am very disappointed in him and thought that I had done a better job of instilling those values in him.

The one upswing is that my wife didn't intend for him to come over and actually physically threaten me. She was trying to triangulate to destroy the stepfather/stepson relationship but unintentionally went too far. She has been trying to get him to walk back his words, but she has set a juiced-up gym rat in motion and I don't think it will be that easy to get the genie back in the bottle. She realizes she messed up and things have gotten out of control. I can actually sense her distress at having painted herself into this corner. She actually finally agreed to go to couples counseling and we had our first session the day after this incident. I did not bring up the incident at the session as it was an intake session but plan to next week. What amazed me is that my wife admitted that she has "an anger problem" that comes from "things that happened when she was little" like "(her) mother abandoning" her and her "father dying while (she) was still very young" leaving her "feeling abandoned."

By now, I think you can understand why I am also on the "conflicted" board. I still do not want a divorce, because it would financially ruin me (her as well) and I don't want to even risk losing 24/7 access to my son. I told the therapist, however, that my initial goals were very simple and reasonable. They are that all of the abuse (physical, verbal, emotional, mental, etc.) must stop and that we have to learn how to be civil to each other for our son's sake. I said it does not matter if we ultimately end up staying together or splitting up, and that my initial goals would be the same regardless. I said that no matter what, we share a young child and will be in each other's lives for the rest of his life and intensely so for the next 16 years or so. This means that we have to learn to get along or it will be our beloved son who gets hurt more than either of us. I would even be ok with a civil and polite divorce if it were possible, but it is not. I know her and it would get ugly and expensive fast. We would both end up bankrupt and living in crappy apartments. No exaggeration. The therapist, who is aware of her BPD (I told him in a private intake session before we met as a couple), told us each to make a list of pros and cons of staying together for our next session. I am hoping that this is when the reality of how devastating a divorce would be for her as well as me. She would not be dancing off into the sunset with sole custody of S2 and a heap of my non-existent money in a wheelbarrow.

What is so upsetting to me is that this whole thing started over me not spending "enough money" on her for V day. The part about me drinking is a red herring. Heck, she bought and chilled a bottle of champagne for us on V day so my drinking wasn't an issue just a few days before. It is about her desperately trying to control me. Because I would not obey when commanded to go to bed at 9 PM on a Friday she freaked out. It was never about me having a few beers on a weekend night, it was about me being out of her sight and control. It was about how I would be enjoying myself without her. The fact that she was certain that I was carrying on an online affair while she was asleep is the dead giveaway that she cannot stand the new boundaries of not being able to go through my phone or tell me what to do.

I am trying to stay the course and hold on to my healthy boundaries. I will cut my stepson off financially and am talking to the police about his threats this weekend. (I have a text message exchange with him that proves he was making the threats.) I will continue the couples counseling and hope that my very modest goals will be achievable. I will, in short, continue to hope for the best and start to prepare for the worst. I am back to not sleeping and barely eating. This has all got me so stressed out that I can barely get through the day at work and dread coming home at night. I am hanging on and being strong for my S2 who needs a happy, sane adult in the house every night and I cannot afford to not put on a brave face and plow forward for his sake.

Thank you for letting me get that all off my chest,

HurtAndTired

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[thankful person]

Hurt and tired,

So sorry to hear you’re having such a hard time. Well done in putting your son’s needs first. I completely hear you and you’re definitely not alone in these experiences. My wife constantly spends money we don’t have, and complains that I don’t spend any money on her and that I don’t give her any money (actually I do but apparently that doesn’t count because it’s just going into her overdraft but that doesn’t stop her spending it). She also hates me drinking without her and staying up without her (even though now she sleeps with the kids and I’m in the spare room, she still wants to dictate when I go to bed). She also accuses me of having an affair, online or irl, and thinks I’m obsessed with work but the reason I’m always trying to take more work on is… you guessed it… because we are broke. I’m sorry I don’t have any helpful advice but I’m thinking of you.

[thankful person]

Oh and just to add, I do have some advice: look after yourself. You deserve it, imagine you need care just like your son does, someone to make sure he’s eating enough and getting some rest. Try and give yourself that and talk to yourself kindly. Work can be tough too, it’s the worst thing when you’re having a hard time at work as well as at home. I was bullied out of a job a few years ago and I felt like screaming at them: can’t you see I’m being abused? The bruises on my face? Nasty idiots they were.

[PhoenixKnight]

Wow, that is an incredible situation. I don’t really know what to say to this other than well done for standing up for yourself.

How are you planning to get through the next few days? Is she still dis-regulated or are things calmer now?

I’m really sorry that she has manipulated your step-son against you. I can’t imagine how frustrating that would be.

[HurtAndTired]

Thanks for your replies ThankfulPerson and PhoenixKnight,

This weekend was a bit touch and go. We are still sleeping in separate bedrooms, but there has been some improvement. She seems to be much more regulated now (although she's still holding a grudge - if there were a grudge-holding Olympic event, she would be a gold medalist.) On Friday afternoon I came home from work in a state of hypervigilance and dreading what I would find when I got home. This is my wife's weekend off work, so I was planning on hiding out in the guest room for most of the weekend. I came home, kissed my son, told him I loved him, and then went up to the guest room to put on my PJs and watch TV. I heard my wife getting ready to take him to the park and breathed a sigh of relief that I would have some time alone to not be worried about getting yelled at.

To my surprise, she came and knocked on the guest bedroom door and asked if I wanted to come to the park with them. I asked, "Are you going to be nice?" To which she replied, "Yes." I was doubtful if she was going to be able to, but could not pass up a possible olive branch, so I got dressed again and walked to the park a block away with my family. My wife and I didn't talk much, but she wasn't being mean which was a huge improvement. We played with our son on the playground equipment for about a half hour until it started to get too cold. (We are in the Midwest and have been having a blessed unseasonable warm streak.)

For the rest of the night on Friday, all day Saturday, and all day Sunday my wife was cordial but still distant. As I said, a huge improvement, and I will take what I can get. On Sunday morning, just as I was leaving to go to church she asked me if I wanted to know the story of the cross that was sitting out on the kitchen counter and had been there for several days. I told her of course I would. She said that she had not seen that cross in years, but that on Friday our S2 had found it and brought it to her saying, "Look Mommy, a cross!" He then venerated (kissed) it as we do in the Orthodox Christian tradition that I am raising him in. My wife took that to be a sign from God that she needs to work on us being a family. I can't disagree with her as I believe it to be a powerful sign as well. That Sunday evening my wife went to Mass (she is Catholic) for the first time in the 12 years that we have been together. (She has accompanied me to the Orthodox Church for the Divine Liturgy on several occasions, including our wedding and our son's baptism but has been a lapsed Catholic for a long time.)

She still shut herself in the master bedroom last night and it was clear that she expected me to stay in the guest room again. (She made a snide remark alluding to her thinking I was masturbating while I was using the bathroom right before she went to bed, but then strangely texted me within two minutes thanking me for going to the store that day to buy groceries.) It does feel a little like two steps forward and one step back, but at least it is progress.

I haven't done anything about the situation with my stepson yet as it feels like that would tilt her back into dysregulation at a delicate point, but am not going to let it go. He crossed my boundary on personal safety and violence and there will be a reckoning, but it will happen in a way that is the least likely to dysregulate her again. I plan to be very matter-of-fact about it. She told me last week that I was making her choose between me and her son and was very dysregulated about it. I told her simply that I would never expect her to choose me over her son, that she should choose her child over her spouse every time, and that she shouldn't worry about the situation as I was taking care of it.

To that end, I am going to bring it up in couples therapy and simply state as a fact that I am going to let my stepson know that he has 30 days to arrange for his own car insurance and cell coverage as I cannot support violent behavior or threats of violence. I have decided to not file a protective order against him, but am going to let a friend on the force know that the threat has been made so that there is a record of it. If he should ever threaten me again, strike me, or in any way harass me, I will treat it the same as I would anyone else violating that boundary and will call 911 and let the police deal with it.

Thanks again all and keep your fingers crossed for us and prayers if you are so inclined. I will update you as the situation develops.

Thanks again,

HurtAndTired

[kells76]

Glad to hear about some improvement -- it's a long journey to turn things around, and even though it will be "two steps forward, one step back" like you mentioned, having neutral-to-positive, low-key interactions can build a better foundation.

One of the strengths of the "Bettering a relationship" board, that you've probably heard of, is the opportunity to receive feedback and perspective on your real life interactions. Thanks for posting some dialog from your weekend -- gives us a good picture of the feel of your home and some areas that are under your control to change.

To my surprise, she came and knocked on the guest bedroom door and asked if I wanted to come to the park with them. I asked, "Are you going to be nice?" To which she replied, "Yes." I was doubtful if she was going to be able to, but could not pass up a possible olive branch, so I got dressed again and walked to the park a block away with my family. My wife and I didn't talk much, but she wasn't being mean which was a huge improvement. We played with our son on the playground equipment for about a half hour until it started to get too cold. (We are in the Midwest and have been having a blessed unseasonable warm streak.)

To me, that looks like an opportunity for you to try a different approach, to take a healthy emotional lead in a situation where it looks like she was trying to be vulnerable.

Asking "are you going to be nice" opens the door to rehashing old conflicts and doesn't read to me as healthy/high level emotional leadership.

Try something new -- what about saying "Thank you, that sounds nice"? Or "Sounds fun, I'll be ready in 5 minutes"?

Set the tone for steering the two of you away from sniping, swiping, comments on each other's moods, etc -- take her offer "at face value" knowing that you have the tools and skills to exit the situation if stuff happens that you don't want to be around.

I know you're working hard, which is why I'm offering that challenge -- I hear you wanting things to be better.

...

Also glad that both of you seemed to respect each other's faiths this weekend, and have faith to lean on in these difficult times.

Do you think it would be meaningful to her (and something you could do with integrity) for you to attend a Mass with her? (As a non denominational Protestant I don't have the insight about what you as an Orthodox could do while committed to your faith). Just brainstorming low-key, low emotional intensity ways to continue to have neutral-to-positive interactions together.

Finding bits of common ground, however small, could help -- so if you both agree that this past weekend may have been a sign from God to work on improving family life (however that looks in practice), that could be really positive for the two of you.

[HurtAndTired]

Thanks for the reply Kells,

I agree that your idea of saying something along the lines of "That sounds nice" would have been much better than "Are you going to be nice?" I am really struggling to be neutral/positive in my responses, but the trauma-based (and unhelpful) responses are really, really hard for me to overcome. I did recognize her gesture as an olive branch right away though, so I should have taken a count of 5 or something to try to modulate my response before replying to her. I do appreciate you pointing that out because in my brain fight-or-flight mode tends to spew out something defensive instinctually, but if instinctual thinking could make things better they would already be better. Thinking counterintuitively is hard and takes a lot of practice but, I am told, gets easier over time.

As to your question about going to Mass, it is not a problem for me as an Orthodox Christian. As a matter of fact, the Catholic Church recognizes Orthodox Christians as being Christians in good standing with the Catholic Church and invites them (as long as they have recently been to Confession) to take Holy Communion with them. However, this is prohibited by the Orthodox Patriarchs and Arch-Bishops who believe that communing in a Roman Catholic Church would imply that the millennia-old rift between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism no longer existed. We all pray for the day when the Great Schism between Eastern and Western Christianity will be healed, but we are unfortunately not there yet. When the Catholics commune, I approach the priest with my arms crossed and accept his blessing instead of taking the Divine Gifts with my Western brethren. Roman Catholics are not invited to commune in Orthodox churches, but can likewise approach our priest during Communion and ask for a blessing in the place of the Divine Gifts. Orthodox Christians who have not prepared for Communion through fasting, prayer, and Confession likewise approach for a blessing during Communion in their own church.

I quite enjoy Catholic Mass and am always astonished at how the Western and Eastern Liturgies are nearly identical (down to nearly the word) and yet are celebrated so differently. If my wife continues to want to go to Mass I would very much want to go with her. However, I would skip my own church that morning. Orthodox liturgies are 90-105 minutes long and you stand most of the time. With a service like that, one a day is enough for me. Going to church as a family has always been a thing I have aspired to and I hope that we can start doing that regularly. I would be happy to rotate weekends. On one weekend my son and I go to church and take Communion, the following weekend we go to church with Mom and receive blessings from the priest.

Thanks again Kells,

HurtAndTired

[kells76]

I agree that your idea of saying something along the lines of "That sounds nice" would have been much better than "Are you going to be nice?" I am really struggling to be neutral/positive in my responses, but the trauma-based (and unhelpful) responses are really, really hard for me to overcome. I did recognize her gesture as an olive branch right away though, so I should have taken a count of 5 or something to try to modulate my response before replying to her. I do appreciate you pointing that out because in my brain fight-or-flight mode tends to spew out something defensive instinctually, but if instinctual thinking could make things better they would already be better. Thinking counterintuitively is hard and takes a lot of practice but, I am told, gets easier over time.

That insight makes a lot of sense. If doing "normal" stuff improved a BPD relationship, this site wouldn't be here!

I know how hard it is to change learned responses; I'm working on that with my H. While neither of us has BPD, the kid's mom and stepdad both have many PD traits, and so those challenges have overshadowed our working on our relationship with each other. 7 years into our marriage, when things were settling down with the kid drama, we experienced big challenges with each other (coupled with a lot of external stressors hitting me) -- I saw him as deeply invalidating, he saw me as hurtfully withdrawing. We are both working hard to change our "knee jerk" responses to each other. I have to work on taking more risks with him and actually telling him how I feel. He is working on being less reactive. It has deeply impacted our ability to be close with each other... but, after ~2 really, really hard years, and 1 "clawing back up from the bottom" year, we are doing much better.

Anyway, all that to say -- I understand the difficulty and long term nature of consciously changing trauma based responses.

 I think it's great that on the boards here, we can "watch the game tape" of how an interaction went, and point out what worked and what could be improved. You're in a calmer place now, and are able to think of a couple of different options for the future. Taking a count of 5 (though maybe making it subtle, like letting yourself say "oh........." or "hmmmm......" to buy some time) is a great idea. Practicing some new "automatic" responses back here can also help.

Maybe there are questions or types of questions she asks more regularly? Brainstorming a handful of low-key, non-defensive responses here could keep them fresh in your brain.

Some couples have conflict over "she's always asking me to do XYZ for her"; does that come up in your relationship? Again, just brainstorming typical conflict areas that can be "low hanging fruit" for new responses.

As to your question about going to Mass, it is not a problem for me as an Orthodox Christian. As a matter of fact, the Catholic Church recognizes Orthodox Christians as being Christians in good standing with the Catholic Church and invites them (as long as they have recently been to Confession) to take Holy Communion with them. However, this is prohibited by the Orthodox Patriarchs and Arch-Bishops who believe that communing in a Roman Catholic Church would imply that the millennia-old rift between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism no longer existed. We all pray for the day when the Great Schism between Eastern and Western Christianity will be healed, but we are unfortunately not there yet. When the Catholics commune, I approach the priest with my arms crossed and accept his blessing instead of taking the Divine Gifts with my Western brethren. Roman Catholics are not invited to commune in Orthodox churches, but can likewise approach our priest during Communion and ask for a blessing in the place of the Divine Gifts. Orthodox Christians who have not prepared for Communion through fasting, prayer, and Confession likewise approach for a blessing during Communion in their own church.

Thanks for the background on your and your W's faiths -- glad to hear that whatever else is going on (emotionally, relationally, or logistically), you both have the option to attend the other's services without a challenge to your integrity, and that at this point, matters of faith do not seem to cause conflict in your marriage.

I attended Catholic school for 2 years and also approached the priest with my arms crossed. Hadn't thought about that for a while!

I quite enjoy Catholic Mass and am always astonished at how the Western and Eastern Liturgies are nearly identical (down to nearly the word) and yet are celebrated so differently. If my wife continues to want to go to Mass I would very much want to go with her. However, I would skip my own church that morning. Orthodox liturgies are 90-105 minutes long and you stand most of the time. With a service like that, one a day is enough for me. Going to church as a family has always been a thing I have aspired to and I hope that we can start doing that regularly. I would be happy to rotate weekends. On one weekend my son and I go to church and take Communion, the following weekend we go to church with Mom and receive blessings from the priest.

Yes, I remember attending an Orthodox wedding -- I think the very little kids sat on the floor and there may have been seats for the elderly, but the rest of us did stand the whole time. Plenty of time on one's feet for sure!

Good flexible thinking about rotating weekends for services. It could be a starting point for modeling to your son an area where you and your W respect each other.

What do you think your W would think of that idea? My sense is that if she feels pressured like "here's another initiative from HurtAndTired and he didn't even ask me first", it won't go over well. If she feels that it's low-intensity and that you're genuinely curious about her thoughts before you do anything, she may be more open to discussion.

Of course, if she for whatever reason isn't open to the idea, then it's still a win win -- you continue to do what you always do, no harm done, and no pressure from you on her to "think about it more" or "why don't you want to". I think I'm more thinking of it as a low-intensity area where you could practice having a conversation with her when both of you are at baseline and regulated, and it's an area where maybe you and she share common goals (let's show our son that we respect both faiths), so you can have an experience of agreeing with each other.

Lots of food for thought -- I'll pause there...

[HurtAndTired]

Hello all,

Last night my wife and I had our second couples therapy session. It was a mixed bag. During the session, she became increasingly dysregulated and we both left it in an emotional and triggered state. However, during the session, she admitted to having physically abused me on several occasions and even was specific about smashing a large, glass-framed picture over my head while I slept. She, of course, justified her actions by saying that I had caused her to act that way, but just admitting it without being forced to feels like a big step. She also admitted that she gets so mad that she says and does things without thinking and that sometimes she loses control of herself and doesn't remember everything that she has done. Additionally, she said that she thinks it has to do with her mother abandoning her when she was little and her father dying a few years later. She also blamed the men in her life for making her this way, which I agree with to a degree but also feel is somewhat of an exaggeration.

I fully believed her when she said that her first husband was physically and verbally abusive and cheated on her. I still do. However, I think that there must be more to the story. I now wonder how much of a part her PD had in the deterioration of that relationship and how much blame falls on her. I can now see that she is not the defenseless victim that she initially portrayed herself to be in every intimate relationship she has been in. That being said, while her being sexually abused by her stepfather in her teens and being physically and verbally abused by her first husband in her 20s were surely contributing factors to worsening her PD, it is not fair to place all of the blame for her misery on "men."

At one point during therapy, my wife was being so negative that the therapist said "I can only successfully do therapy if both people want to work on the relationship. Mrs. HurtAndTired, do you want to work on this relationship?" She was very non-commital saying, "I'm done hoping to fix this relationship. At this point, I just want to concentrate on being a good mother to S2." I stepped in because this is our third time through couples therapy and I have learned to not let her control the narrative, and said "Even if we end up splitting up, we are going to be connected by S2 for the rest of our lives. We will have to talk to each other with shared custody, and have birthdays, holidays, concerts, sporting events, graduation, weddings, and the like for the rest of his life. We need to learn how to be civil and respectful to each other when we talk or we will end up hurting S2 by putting him in the middle. Can we please continue for his sake? For the sake of learning how to be nice to each other no matter what happens with us?" She agreed with this and the session ended with another session scheduled for next week.

Strangely, within minutes of the session being over, my wife reverted to being polite and civil with me. She even laughed and joked a bit and shared details about her day. Then we ended the night by putting S2 to bed and going off to separate bedrooms again. A real head-scratcher for me, but I feel as though some progress was made. She admitted to having emotional dysregulation and to verbally and physically abusing me to the therapist. Furthermore, she was aware of the origin of her disordered behavior coming from adverse events that occurred long before she met me. However, she was still trying to justify her abusive behavior by pointing out how bad I am and how I make her do these bad things. I'm not fully sure what to make of that.

Kells,

You asked if there was something that came up again and again with our arguing. A point of contention is that she will frequently say something along the lines of "You're a typical man" or "just like a man to do that" or some other such thing said in a way and tone that makes clear that all men are terrible people and that I am just another in a long line of male A-holes. In the past I have tried to reason with her by pointing out that her beloved father and son are both men (the son is 25 and has not been a boy for a long time), but that fails to resonate with her. It is usually during a split when she says things like this, but not always. Her bitterness toward the male of the species is a palpable constant. Not sure what else I can do about that, but reasoning does not work, and I am concerned that when our son becomes a teenager she may transfer some of her "man-hate" for me onto him if I can't solve this riddle.

Thank you for your responses, they have been super helpful.

Thanks again,

HurtAndTired

[kells76]

Hi HaT, thanks for the update.

I get what you're saying about the session being a mixed bag. My thought is that it was your second session, and the two of you didn't get to this point in your relationship overnight. It's like turning around one of those giant oil tankers -- that's not a small turning radius. It's possible to turn it around but it will take a while.

Gut feeling is that it may be helpful to remind yourself that you can tolerate the distress of "mixed bag" sessions. You are able to balance your feelings with your thoughts (WiseMind) and accept that you may occasionally be disappointed because you wanted the sessions to go better and the BPD behaviors remain frustrating, and "Rome wasn't built in a day", you have distress tolerance skills and patience, and you don't discount the positive because of the negative.

It seems like the couples therapy will be focused on the relationship between the two of you (whether it's a marriage/romantic relationship or a coparenting relationship). The relationship is like a "third person", so it makes sense that the counselor will focus less on "stop doing that mental illness behavior" and more on "given where the two of you are at, what can you contribute to the health of the relationship".

Same gut feeling here:

I fully believed her when she said that her first husband was physically and verbally abusive and cheated on her. I still do. However, I think that there must be more to the story. I now wonder how much of a part her PD had in the deterioration of that relationship and how much blame falls on her. I can now see that she is not the defenseless victim that she initially portrayed herself to be in every intimate relationship she has been in. That being said, while her being sexually abused by her stepfather in her teens and being physically and verbally abused by her first husband in her 20s were surely contributing factors to worsening her PD, it is not fair to place all of the blame for her misery on "men."

Finding "acceptance and moving forward" may be helpful -- not in the sense of accepting that her distorted perceptions are OK, but in the sense of -- if you're choosing to stay in a relationship with someone suffering from a real mental illness, then there needs to be a degree of accepting that she's going to have distorted perceptions/memories and that's part of the package deal. Versus -- being surprised and frustrated every time she shares a distorted perception. If you can shift your response away from "she shouldn't blame all men" to "well, yes, there she goes again, doing a very expected BPD behavior", I'm wondering if that can help your instinctive trauma response, actually.

Kind of helping yourself accept that "the norm" for her is irrational perceptions, so instead of "having to" confront them/brace for them, you can help yourself expect them, and then you can give yourself a moment in your rational mind to describe and label what's going on, before moving to an emotional reaction place.

That has kind of helped me with coping with my H's kids' mom (uBPD) and stepdad (uNPD). I would get torqued out for hours with barely suppressed rage and impotent frustration when they would do their PD stuff. It was exhausting. I would just circle and circle on how unfair they were, how messed up they were, and how I couldn't protect the kids from them. And so in effect, all my energy was focused... on them. It has taken a while, but now when they do some disordered thing, I can first go to the intellectual place of "Yes, that is disordered. I have chosen to expect disordered behavior from them -- so this is expected."

Anyway -- not sure if that's exactly where you're at, but it's something to ponder.

...

Thanks for sharing a specific conflict example here:

You asked if there was something that came up again and again with our arguing. A point of contention is that she will frequently say something along the lines of "You're a typical man" or "just like a man to do that" or some other such thing said in a way and tone that makes clear that all men are terrible people and that I am just another in a long line of male A-holes. In the past I have tried to reason with her by pointing out that her beloved father and son are both men (the son is 25 and has not been a boy for a long time), but that fails to resonate with her. It is usually during a split when she says things like this, but not always. Her bitterness toward the male of the species is a palpable constant. Not sure what else I can do about that, but reasoning does not work, and I am concerned that when our son becomes a teenager she may transfer some of her "man-hate" for me onto him if I can't solve this riddle.

Smart of you to realize that reasoning is not the solution. If BPD issues could be solved by reasoning, this site wouldn't be here!

Has there been anything else you've tried in the past, besides engaging with her statement?

I think you're right that you don't have the power to change if she is committed to those feelings. The "nice" thing is that you have the power to try different responses yourself.

Couple of options come to mind:

One is leaving the room without explanation/justification. When she starts to go on about "Look at that guy on TV, isn't it just like men to blah blah blah", what if you simply... left the room? You can't stop her from saying that stuff, but you can protect yourself from hearing it, and she doesn't have to understand, agree, or cooperate.

Another option could be to make a brief statement: "I don't like hearing that kind of stuff about men. I'm going to go get some groceries, I'll be back in an hour." Again, it isn't about "making her stop saying it", but it is about you modeling that you don't participate in listening to it. It may happen around your S2, which would model for him that it is OK to take care of yourself and to decline to hear negativity, in a way that isn't just starting an argument.

Notice that none of this is about "teaching your W a lesson" or "making her pay" or "punishing her". It's not impossible that after a few times of you declining to be around her when she starts in on "All guys are...", she might make the connection -- or she might not -- but boundaries aren't fundamentally about changing other people's behavior. Boundaries are because you value yourself and you are the only one who can protect you.

...

When's the next session coming up?

[HurtAndTired]

Thanks again for the advice Kells,

Our next therapy session is in a few hours. Over the weekend things have become more tense. She is again fantasizing about how a divorce would make her life easier and is delusional about our financial situation (all while continuing to buy shoes, purses, etc. on Amazon daily). I am hoping for a mixed bag again tonight in therapy. At the same time she has been getting on my case for sleeping in a different room (she locked me out of the bedroom two weeks ago) and for not initiating sex/sexually servicing her enough. Although, in my defense, it is kinda hard to have sex (or even want to) with the screaming person who is repeatedly telling you that they hate you and that you've ruined their life...while also being locked out of the marital bedroom for weeks (see above.) The dueling narratives of "I hate you and will continue to treat you like crap" and "You don't love me enough, give me sex" existing simultaneously will never cease to put a cramp in my brain when I try to comprehend it.

Your observation about the "man hate" being a core part of her is spot on. I wasn't asking how to get her to stop hating on men, I know by this point that it will never happen. I also don't let it bother me that much anymore (it does still get annoying, but I can walk away from it whenever I choose.) The thing that I am worried about is how to shield our S2 from it and just shield him from her negativity in general.

By the time I could scoop him up and get him out of the room, the damage is already done. He has already heard the swearing. He has already gotten snarled at. He has already heard me insulted or heard things meant to demean me in his eyes. I guess I will just have to learn to get comfortable with the idea that he will see some very ugly things and that there is not much I can do to protect him from it except to be there before the ugly thing happens, to carry him away from the ugly thing while it's happening, and to help him process the ugly thing after it happens. I need to be constant and stable to present a contrast to her unstable chaos and just try to explain (in age-appropriate ways) that sometimes Mommy gets angry but that getting angry doesn't make it ok to scream, yell, and call people names.

I will update everyone tomorrow on how tonight goes. As you rightly said Kells, by this point I know that a mixed bag is still a net positive. Two steps forward and one step back still equals a step forward. It's just what happens during the mixed bag that I find surprising. What I expect to go well most often doesn't and what I expect to go poorly can go surprisingly well. I guess I should no longer be surprised by the predictably unpredictable, but it still leaves me gobsmacked sometimes.

HurtAndTired

[HurtAndTired]

Hi all,

So here's my update after last night's therapy session. My dBPDw and I have been civil and not fighting for the past week since the last session, but it is still an icy peace. We are still sleeping in separate bedrooms and I can tell that she is trying to reign herself in. During the therapy session, things got immediately tense once again and it was an hour-long exercise in bickering. I was trying as hard as I could to keep my emotions in check and I think I did a pretty good job of doing so. However, I kept having to correct the false narratives that she was spewing to the therapist. I continue to do so as "my recollection of events is different than yours" and then give my version of the story. It is very frustrating and requires an enormous amount of patience and self-control to keep myself from falling back into JADE, but I managed to do it.

This session was all over the place and it seemed like my wife was trying to go through a litany of everything that I had done "wrong" over the past 12 years. Had I not supplied my own recollections of the events, she would have hijacked the session entirely in an attempt to triangulate the therapist against me. However, one theme kept popping back up when I read between the lines, which is that she feels frustrated and trapped in her life. She feels trapped by our marriage, she feels trapped by our child, she feels trapped by her job (which she hates, but will never quit or try for a promotion), and she feels trapped by her poor finances. In her mind, divorce would solve all of her problems.

She would be free of me, and she would receive substantial financial support from me which would alleviate her financial problems (pure fiction because I have gone deep in debt trying to support the family with her irresponsible spending and don't make that much more than she does), and she would be able to work fewer hours or find a new, better job with my alimony (not a thing in my state) and massive child support (see reality check above.) She also thinks that she would be given primary custody (in her mind, sole custody) of our S2 based on her experience with my SS25 and her ex-husband, who only played dad when he felt like it. While being a single mother with very little interaction or help from the child's father would be a burden to her, she embraces it as it fuels her victim narrative.

Our bickering (her supplying false/delusional narratives, me supplying my version of events) went on until we ran out of time and the therapist had to stop us at the end of the hour. I walked away feeling emotionally triggered and depleted. In the aftermath, she tried to engage me in an argument which I refused to do. Using SET, I was able to get her to calm down and listen to her express what was on her mind. After hearing her confirm what I was reading between the lines about her divorce fantasy I was able to use the T part of SET and calmly told her how a divorce would go down should she choose to pursue one.

I first informed her that a contested divorce with marital property and children costs more than $20K per person in our state, on average, for lawyers fees, legal fees, court costs, etc. This would bankrupt both of us. She was surprised that the divorce would be contested, to which I told her that if she files I would fight for primary legal custody (legal power for decisions of schools, doctors, etc.) of S2 with all of my power, but that it would be nice to have 50/50 physical custody because I would never want to deprive her or S2 of having a full and loving relationship. I said that divorcing me would be very different than her experience with her ex-husband. It would not be cheap, short, or easy. I then went on to tell her about the reality of what our housing options would be given the current market, high interest rates, tightened lending standards, near-record-high real estate values (in our town), and dramatically increased rents. Buying a house on our own would be out of reach in our market, especially with our credit destroyed in the divorce. We also live in a university town, so renting an apartment would likely mean living in a building with loud, messy, and unruly college students.

I told her that my finances are under immense strain due to debt and that I use any money that I have left over after paying the bills and food for the month to pay down debt. I am chipping away at it slowly but surely, but it will take several more years for me to be debt-free and for us to be in a more comfortable place. I assured her that I was doing all of this for the good of the family and was trying to be financially responsible for her sake and the sake of our S2. This is when she said something that completely surprised me.

She asked if we stay together and I could free myself from debt in a few years, would I then just leave her? Once again reading between the lines, I saw that she thinks that I am in this marriage primarily because I can't currently afford to break free. She fears that if I were in a financially strong position, I would be out the door. All of the talk of divorce, money, and me trying to work extra hours (she is simultaneously furious at the idea of me spending more time away from her working and incensed that we don't have more money) comes down to her wanting to have me in a financial bind where she has power over me. She sees that I am methodically working toward freeing myself (and by extension, our family) from debt and a divorce would be a preemptive strike that would allow her to leave me before I leave her, and damn the consequences.

Ironically, I have been talking with my parents about how freeing myself from debt would alleviate much of my anxiety about my marriage. Not that I am planning to leave my wife, but that if she continued to make divorce threats I at least would not have to worry about losing the house. Then I would be in a position to buy out her half of the equity in our house and keep S2 in his home. I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder and have been sleeping very little and close to having panic attacks for months due to our marital difficulties. I have also lost nearly 30 pounds and am down to around 140 pounds which is very thin for my height and build. I still do not want to end my marriage, but I DO want to free myself from her power to manipulate me by using our financial situation. In my mind, if I can be in that position and she ever files for divorce I would be able to afford the quality attorneys that I would need and it would minimize the damage to our son (e.g. he would not be living in a slummy college apartment.)

I know that pwBPD are really good at picking up on very subtle cues and have an uncanny ability to read other people. I wonder if it is possible that she has intuited that I am trying to put myself in a stronger financial position so that I free myself from the immense anxiety that I have been in for most of a year about losing my house and has interpreted that as that I am planning to leave? I reassured her that everything I am doing is so that we can be financially healthy as a family. I told her that I want to be able to take on more of the expenses and bills, but that I have to free up more of my income to be able to do that. She has again and again expressed her desire for me to be able to pay all of the bills and for her to be able to have "her money." I told her that my goal is to be able to pay most, if not all, of the bills and the mortgage and that she could continue to help out with groceries and other household expenses, but that this cannot happen overnight.

She asked for me to take over a bill that she currently pays. I told her that I could not currently do that, but that I have been applying for remote work that is part-time and from home doing freelance writing. I have been looking for such jobs for a few weeks now as they would allow me to work from home on the nights and weekends when I am home with our S2. I am very qualified as a writer with my MA in Teaching English as a Second or Other Language (TESOL) and hope that I will be able to find such a position in a fairly short amount of time. I feel strongly that I need to pursue financial independence no matter what happens, but can see that I need to lean into making my wife feel reassured that it is not part of a bid to leave her, but that it is part of a concerted effort to give her the things that she says she wants. I hope that this is a breakthrough moment as I feel that I have finally gotten a glimpse into a core fear that has been driving a lot of the problematic behaviors from her.

Sorry for the incredibly long post, but there was just so, so much to unpack from last night's session and the following conversation. I am going to count last night as a net positive even though it was full of conflict and tension because of the breakthrough insight that I got and I went to bed last night less anxious than I have for weeks.

Thank you for letting me rant.

HurtAndTired