Permanent split

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Is it possible to be permanently split?

My relationship is nearly 20 years in total. At the start love bombing, then I think I got split backwards and forwards for years but its such a long time ago. If I accepted the blame and apologized everything got better again for a bit.

These days I see many of the behaviors discussed in these boards, but the one thing I never see is being split white again? There is just the negative side /passive aggressive/ criticisms/ blamed/ projected on/ silent treatment/.

Now it is more of an acceptance from both parties the relationship is in a really bad place, yet she still thinks we just need to learn to communicate better. To me I woke up this year and started putting all the behaviors together, coming here and seeing similar stories and reading books and realized all that has gone on, started not JADEing, and refusing to engage when things got hot and learned I was perhaps dealing with something far more sinister than I thought.

Also I find myself not wanting to talk with her as I just kind of don't care anymore, I don't want to try and fix things a sit doesn't get me anywhere, does that mean I am now doing silent treatment? Has my behavior become bad? I guess I have just lost hope, feel burned out and want out.

[CravingPeace]

Is it possible to be permanently split?

My relationship is nearly 20 years in total. At the start love bombing, then I think I got split backwards and forwards for years but its such a long time ago. If I accepted the blame and apologized everything got better again for a bit.

These days I see many of the behaviors discussed in these boards, but the one thing I never see is being split white again? There is just the negative side /passive aggressive/ criticisms/ blamed/ projected on/ silent treatment/.

Now it is more of an acceptance from both parties the relationship is in a really bad place, yet she still thinks we just need to learn to communicate better. To me I woke up this year and started putting all the behaviors together, coming here and seeing similar stories and reading books and realized all that has gone on, started not JADEing, and refusing to engage when things got hot and learned I was perhaps dealing with something far more sinister than I thought.

Also I find myself not wanting to talk with her as I just kind of don't care anymore, I don't want to try and fix things a sit doesn't get me anywhere, does that mean I am now doing silent treatment? Has my behavior become bad? I guess I have just lost hope, feel burned out and want out.

[Gerda]

Other people may know better than me, but I'm thinking probably not when it comes to "will I ever be split white again?" Or if you do it won't last long.

At the beginning of my relationship with my husband I never would have dreamed I'd ever be at the point where I'm Googling his behavior and the first thing listed on Google is always the National Domestic Violence Hotline. In the beginning it seemed like I had found my soulmate.

Now it seems like even from his perspective, he thinks I'm lucky that he puts up with me. When he's angry he calls me immature, selfish, incompetent, even evil. But when he's in a good mood, he doesn't really even say much good about me. It really seems like he just tolerates me at best, and thinks I should be grateful for that.

Makes me wonder why he even wants to keep me around. I guess it's just for the sex (he's constantly complaining about not getting enough) and for the childcare (I do like 90% of the parenting of our 4 year old daughter). Other than that I'm just an immature dumb bitch who doesn't understand how good she has it.

I think once they see you that way, there's no going back. There's nothing about me that he seems to actually like anymore.

I've finally come to accept that it's never going to be like it was in the beginning again.

[ForeverDad]

I am mostly on this board where separations and eventual divorce are common.  In just about every case, life for the member was/is progressively getting worse, not better.  Hence the divorce result.

There are known cycles where we were/are painted black, then painted white.  Rinse and repeat.  But this doesn't have to be a repeating pattern forever.

There's a saying, If it has been threatened, or even just contemplated, it will happen if given enough time.

So repeated threats such as "I will divorce you!" or "I will take the kids and disappear!" and so on are signals that we can't afford to ignore.

My spouse made the above threats and more in the final years together.  I tried to manage it but our home life just kept getting worse.  Well, until the marriage imploded.  

So yes, I would say that if the blacklisting is continuing and you're not getting painted white again, wave the prior cyclical pattern hopes goodbye.  Maybe meaningful therapy might work but it often is refused or progress faked.

[CravingPeace]

Thank you Gerda. I get similar things:

I am selfish, a child, thoughtless, don't listen, useless, add nothing to her life other than finances.

She definitely gets in a good mood sometimes, usually with the kids, and sometimes it seems so over the top it could be put on....But it disappears in the blink of an eye.

I am amazed you are still having sex. My uBPD cut me off over 10 years ago, and it is due to the above complaints. So she didn't feel emotionally looked after. Sad thing is I have realized I don't want that anymore either with her, I don't feel safe. I always was told by her men are more physical. Funny seems I need an emotional connection or to at least feel liked to want that!  She said the other day why we don't do it and its all due to the above, I said actually its ok I don't really want that anymore either. She got really offended and angry with me like I was trying to hurt her.

I feel the same there is nothing she likes about me. Sadly the feeling is finally mutual. I'm probably ten years behind her, but I have eventually given up! Re-read some of the emails/messages I have had from her in the past. I read mine and it still sounds calm and raising a legitimate concern, then her vicious ,abusive and toxic response drifting all over the place, not remotely about the point I raised. I feel so dumb that I always ended backing down and apologizing.

Thanks for concerning your thoughts on splitting. I always kinda figured they split back and forwards. I guess once the final split has happened there is no return.

Foreverdad, sadly it was me that made the threat to Divorce, she has made suggestions that our relationship is bad constantly for a decade. I finally lost my cool last summer when she had locked me and the kids out of the hotel room while she showered and they were freezing cold from swimming, and ashamedly it was in front of one of my kids and I said we should just split and move on. I was just so angry and frustrated. I promised her I would never say that again in front of the kids and I have not. She often brings it up though. The thing is I said it frustrated but it wasn't to punish her it was because I meant it and I had enough. Now I am likely to start the process very soon. I deeply regret saying it though in front of my son.

[ForeverDad]

Foreverdad, sadly it was me that made the threat to Divorce, she has made suggestions that our relationship is bad constantly for a decade... I promised her I would never say that again in front of the kids and I have not. She often brings it up though. The thing is I said it frustrated but it wasn't to punish her it was because I meant it and I had enough. Now I am likely to start the process very soon. I deeply regret saying it though in front of my son.

The walls have ears... likely your kids know far more than you imagine about the discord, badmouthing and whatnot that you think you've hidden from them.  They may not know the word but they know what "dysfunction" in the home environment is.

Ponder this quote as you investigate divorce:

A few decades ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action, as appropriate, will enable your lives or at least a part of your lives to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that may be - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos...

[EyesUp]

Here's a comment from the other side...

My divorce was finalized 2 years ago. 

Prior to divorce, I experienced the same progression others have described, with increasing/escalating cycles of conflict.  The worst cycles followed the birth of our 2nd and 3rd children, which I mistook/rationalized as post partem depression. Perhaps that was a contributing factor, but her misery was 100% attributed to me.

Although these episodes seemed to pass, in retrospect, it was like death by a thousand cuts.

The pattern tends to accrue, the ideas tend to stick, resentment builds. 

Gottman's "Four Horsemen" of relationship apocalypse are: Criticism, Contempt, Defensiveness, and Stonewalling. 

Resentment - on one or both sides - leads to contempt and is tied to the other three behaviors as well...  it's really difficult to recover from this, even when BPD is not part of the mix.

Fast forward:  Post-D, I remain in contact with uBPDxw because we have 3 kids...

In the two years since D was finalized, uBPDxw has been engaged in an ongoing smear campaign in which she is a victim of terrible abuse - via posts on social media, comments to others in our community, etc. 

There have been a few moments of apparent softening in attitude.  I've come to see is that these moments are not an indication of remorse or some improvement in understanding.  Rather, a polite or possibly kind posture means that... for whatever reason, she wants something and she's not getting it from her boyfriend, fiance, mother, father, sister, colleague, our kids, etc...  so, eventually, she might turn to me for a sympathetic ear - or whatever.  In these moments, it might seem like the "split" isn't permanent. But I've learned to proceed with maximum caution.

I can't say if your pwBPD will behave the same way - probably not exactly - but Gottman might have some insights for you and your relationship.  If the Horsemen and BPD are present, the damage may be "permanent" but BPD behaviors (cycling) and dynamics (trauma bonding) might make it difficult to recognize the "permanent" damage under the latest fresh coat of paint...

I understand you're conflicted. It sounds like you're seeking support to detach. Do you have a sense of what's holding you back?

[Gerda]

Thank you Gerda. I get similar things:

I am selfish, a child, thoughtless, don't listen, useless, add nothing to her life other than finances.

I am amazed you are still having sex. My uBPD cut me off over 10 years ago, and it is due to the above complaints. So she didn't feel emotionally looked after. Sad thing is I have realized I don't want that anymore either with her, I don't feel safe. I always was told by her men are more physical. Funny seems I need an emotional connection or to at least feel liked to want that!  She said the other day why we don't do it and its all due to the above, I said actually its ok I don't really want that anymore either. She got really offended and angry with me like I was trying to hurt her.

I feel the same there is nothing she likes about me. Sadly the feeling is finally mutual. I'm probably ten years behind her, but I have eventually given up!

Yes, we're still having sex, but that's just because refusing sex gets him into a rage. The last huge fight we had was because he went two weeks without sex because I had the flu. (I thought being sick was maybe an acceptable excuse, but no.) We have to have sex at least once a week, or else I get in trouble.

This very morning he told me he needs sex tonight, so I'm going to have to stay up late after our daughter is asleep to give it to him.

The sex topic is difficult because it seems like most of the members of this group are men married to wives with BPD, so they complain about their BPD wives not giving them enough sex. It sometimes makes me wonder if I'm in the wrong here. The way I remember things is that my husband started verbally/emotionally abusing me and that made me lose interest in sex with him. He says it was the other way around, that I stopped having sex with him as much as he wants (sorry, needs), so he started getting angry at me, and if I only had sex with him more, everything would be OK.

My husband is also 14 years older than me. That didn't seem to be an issue in the beginning of our relationship, but in the last few years he's been making a big deal out of it. Every time I disagree with him, he puts me down as an immature child. Sometimes he says living with me is like living with a teenager, other times a toddler. I've told him several times that talking to me that way does not make me want to have sex with him more. I even said (when I was getting angry) that "If I'm a child, that makes you a pedophile!" Hasn't stopped him from saying that stuff though. I guarantee you the next time he is angry he's going to call me a child again.

During one of our fights a few months ago, he even literally said to me, "The only thing I need from you is sex!" Ok, so no companionship, love, respect, none of that stuff?

(And by the way, he IS getting it. But he's not getting it enough, or I'm not enthusiastic enough about it, or I don't do the exact things he wants me to do, or stuff like that.)

When he's been in a better mood I asked him what he likes about me besides sex. He said, "We have a lot in common!" I asked him to give examples, and he said "we both like superhero movies."

Yeah, lots of people like superhero movies. That's why they all make millions of dollars. It's not really enough to base a relationship on.

But that's what I am I guess. Someone to give him sex on demand, take care of his child, and watch superhero movies with him.

[CravingPeace]

Thanks Foreverdad, this makes alot of sense and I do ponder it, but I also question myself on is it that bad. More on this below

Eyesup that is a helpful reference. There is definitely resentment both sides, my wife for the longest time, me more over the past few years. Absolutely criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling from my wife. Funny thing is I have lost count of the amount of times she has accused me of being defensive and constantly stone walls me. Also she repeatedly accuses me of black and white thinking. The other day I gave two options we could get Divorced, or stick together and improve things. She accused me of black and white thinking, so I said ok "or 3rd option just stay as we are". She then said that is not an option...... Kinda crazy making.

Example of defensive accusation:

I walk into a room and smile at her.
She says "why are you laughing"
I say "I am not I was just smiling to say hi"
She says "I wasn't asking you to get defensive".

I understand you're conflicted. It sounds like you're seeking support to detach. Do you have a sense of what's holding you back?

It's tough this holds me back:

-When she is regulated she is a good mother. Clearly loves the kids. If she gets upset/dysregulated often tells them to go away, or "leave me alone" which is one of her favorites, or tells them they have a bad attitude, or they are being jerks. I don't like the name calling. But when she is cooking with them, or doing Picnics etc I think she is a good mum. Oldest is 7. I wonder as they get older will she start giving them accusations too? Today we were going through finances which I have been asking to do for 4 months. She kept on trying to poke at things and say she doesn't trust me and I am dishonest, and she has been wanting to do this for ages and I keep stopping her from seeing the finances. But I haven't I emailed her the bank details/amounts in November and asked to agree a budget. I made constructive suggestions on what she could do, and what I could do and asked her opinion. Her excuse was I get so many emails I didn't see it. Today the excuse changed to I couldnt get the bank app to work, but today suddenly miraculously did. Will the kids as they get older bear the brunt of dishonest accusations etc....? Or will they be happier if I keep the family unit together, but know I will probably have to eat sh *t over the coming years many many times. I am much stronger now, today for instance I stopped her several times and told her it wasn't true and I wasn't going to go around and around on it, as it had been discussed before. It does shut her down but she gets frustrated as wants/needs to blame me for things, and get me to accept things which I no longer do.
-Guilt- She didn't finish school and other than a few years alimony and maybe $500k cash from the house, she will struggle in years to come. Actually now I write that she could be mortgage free with a small house, a much better position than she would have been without me. How will that impact my kids half the week when she has low income in the future? I feel guilt that I will make their lives less materialistically rich I guess
-This is the main one. Wondering if it is as bad as I think. What if I am just wanting an easier life. What if she isn't that bad. What if its me? What if it's just relationship challenges and therapy could fix it? I doubt that as been down that road before and she completely shut down and refused to go back when the therapist told her , her expecting me to be a mind reader was unfair.
-She is in therapy. She has been told she has emotional dysregulation issues, her silent treatments are abusive etc etc. I do think she has tried to reduce the silent treatments but most of the other behavior is still there (projecting, changing reality, blaming). Also she keeps trying to quit. Her therapist even went pro bono, as she said money was an issue. I had never said that to her and I earn the money. But maybe if she sticks with it she will get better.

Honestly a lot of it is I just feel sad, and sometimes maybe I haven't tried enough, and like a failure. But I think maybe I am stuck in a trauma bond aswell... The behaviors above, the accusing me of making her depressed, not looking after her emotionally, cutting sex off a decade ago other than when she acts like she wants it as wanted to get pregnant. I guess I know what I need to do, but just can't quite pull the trigger.

[Gerda]

-When she is regulated she is a good mother. Clearly loves the kids. If she gets upset/dysregulated often tells them to go away, or "leave me alone" which is one of her favorites, or tells them they have a bad attitude, or they are being jerks. I don't like the name calling. But when she is cooking with them, or doing Picnics etc I think she is a good mum. Oldest is 7. I wonder as they get older will she start giving them accusations too?
...
Will the kids as they get older bear the brunt of dishonest accusations etc....? Or will they be happier if I keep the family unit together,

...
-Guilt- She didn't finish school and other than a few years alimony and maybe $500k cash from the house, she will struggle in years to come.

A couple of thoughts. I've had two therapists now who think my mom probably had BPD. My dad was a "traditional dad" who left all the child-rearing up to my mom. That was fine while we were little, but I think moms with BPD don't do so well once their children reach adolescence and end up acting like separate people with their own separate opinions. I'm the middle of three daughters and we all ended up with mental problems to various degrees due to her emotional abuse.

Whether your stay or go, just keep in mind that your kids will need a lot of support from you. Don't just leave them with the crazy lady like my dad did, LOL! Even if you divorce, at least you'll have them part of the time to be supportive and validating to compensate for the drama they will be getting from mom.

For the money stuff, that's her problem. If she's been a stay at home mom for years, I think it's fair for her to get some alimony from you for a little while as she gets back into the workforce (at least, that's how it works in my state), and you'll be paying her child support as well. Yes your kids will not have as much money with parents with two separate households instead of one. That might be worth it.

My parents finally divorced when I was 16, and my dad paid the bare minimum of child support he could legally get away with. If you feel guilty, you could always not do that. Maybe pitch in to help pay for college or something like that.

[CravingPeace]

That's really interesting. My wife's mother is BPD/NPD not sure which. They don't have a relationship, the dad left when wife was 13 and she was left fully exposed to her mother. Which is where her issues stem from. Very sad really.
I do think as the kids get older her behavior will shift, and the same behavior she fires at me will be at them. She is even sometimes aware that she is "turning into her mom".

I am a pretty active dad, make lunches, take them to school and get them ready in the morning, take them to all their sports. Hang out with them. So I know I can keep doing this, attempted alienation aside. My fear is if a D happened how she will react. It will be the ultimate rejection. We have talked about mediation, but I don't know if she will stick with that or lose her cool and go nuclear.

[Gerda]

That's really interesting. My wife's mother is BPD/NPD not sure which. They don't have a relationship, the dad left when wife was 13 and she was left fully exposed to her mother. Which is where her issues stem from. Very sad really.
I do think as the kids get older her behavior will shift, and the same behavior she fires at me will be at them. She is even sometimes aware that she is "turning into her mom".

I am a pretty active dad, make lunches, take them to school and get them ready in the morning, take them to all their sports. Hang out with them. So I know I can keep doing this, attempted alienation aside. My fear is if a D happened how she will react. It will be the ultimate rejection. We have talked about mediation, but I don't know if she will stick with that or lose her cool and go nuclear.

My younger sister is pretty messed up. She's in her late 30's and still lives with our mom. She can't handle holding down a job on her own. I'm lucky to have escaped, frankly. My mom didn't like it either. Despite how much she complains about still having to support my sister, she didn't like it when I moved out either. BPD moms see their children growing up as an abandonment.

There's a book called Raising Resilient Children with a Borderline or Narcissistic Parent that I thought was one of the best self-help books I've read as I've been coming to terms with the idea that my husband probably has BPD. lt's useful whether you decide to stay or divorce (and even has a whole chapter about the pros and cons of that decision), but the basic take-home message I got is that if you are a non-disordered person who has kids with a personality-disordered person, you need to be the kids' stable rock to compensate for the other parent's craziness.

The hopeful thing is that kids do OK with just one stable, healthy, supportive adult in their lives. But they need to have AT LEAST one.

I might have turned out more OK than my sister because I had some supportive adults at school, but it certainly would have been better for me if my dad had been more involved in my life. Sometimes I wonder if he had some mental health problems himself. Unfortunately he's dead now so I can't really talk to him about it.

[ForeverDad]

It's tough this holds me back:

-When she is regulated she is a good mother. Clearly loves the kids. If she gets upset/dysregulated often tells them to go away, or "leave me alone" which is one of her favorites, or tells them they have a bad attitude, or they are being jerks. I don't like the name calling. But when she is cooking with them, or doing Picnics etc I think she is a good mum. Oldest is 7. I wonder as they get older will she start giving them accusations too?

"Warning, Will Robinson!"  (Do you know that Lost in Space reference?)  You just said something problematic.  Yes, all of us here have Nice Guy and Nice Gal inclinations to be overly fair but this otherwise excellent quality could sabotage you in the years to come.

You say, "When she is regulated she is a good mother."  Court and lawyers hear only, "she is a good mother."  Do you see the gap?  If she is sometime NOT a good mother, then the reality is... She is NOT a good mother.

Here's an example lawyers will tell their clients when testifying about fear and abuse... can you see the parallel perspective of court's view of "fearful" as applied to "good"?

Another concept of wisdom I've learned here:
Be careful to avoid saying you're "not fearful" sometimes.  If you're fearful of what he might do then it makes sense that it would pervade your entire life while together.  That he sometimes is less bad doesn't matter, that hovering anvil is still hanging over your head, so to speak, all the time.

The gist of my point is that if he or his lawyer can get you to say there are times when you're not "fearful" then the opposition may push that the legal perspective may not kick in and be considered actionable.  Does that make sense?  Essentially, if you're asked whether you're fearful, the answer is yes, all the time, because you never know when the next incident may occur.

Why is that a risk for us?  Our natural impulse is that we are so inclined to parse a question and say whether in a moment of time we're not living in fear.  Just trust that the overall environment you live in is the sum of it all, not little pieces that are less bad.

[CravingPeace]

Thanks for this perspective Foreverdad. I guess I get torn on what is bad or bad enough? I am not perfect. Occasionally I get frustrated and raise my voice on the 5th attempt on getting them to put shoes on for school when we are late  so I sometimes feel how bad is she in her bad moments. Although If she is willing to scream at me and call me a C or a dick could she do this to them?  I wonder maybe all women get frustrated occasionally and scream at their husbands and call them names. I tell myself its only every few months usually. I just dont have the widest experience. I feel over 17 years I have lost my perspective on what normal or ok is. A little lost I guess. I don't know how to evaluate this and make the biggest decision of my life.

I guess I am so close to it I find it hard to see how bad is she. Thats the thing I struggle with. Am I just over hyping this etc.

Would the kids be happier family together or seperate. My wife isnt as extreme as some of the stories I hear here, she has never been violent and there hasnt been infidelity during marriage and I guess is more the quiet petulant bpd type.

Im not happy and know the inconsistant parenting from her impacts the boys but finding it hard to justify the final decision, on how bad is it. How much are they effected . Example last night i was taking s7 to bed. She came in to kiss him goodnight and she told him how proud she was of him for something he dis in the day. She walked off and he said mom mom I need to tell you something, mom can i tell you something. She came back in and snapped at him for being too loud. I asked him a few mins later how did he feel when she said she was proud of him. He said not sure. I said what about when she said the last thing (i was careful not to ask a leading question), he said "sad".  So I guess I am answering my own questions but yet I still ask myself "is it enough".


Meanwhile she is suggesting 5k couple retreats to fix the marriage.

[thankful person]

Craving peace,

I know what you mean, it all seems so futile, like I can barely be bothered to play my dbpdw’s games of her criticising me and me pretending to take the feedback literally and try to improve my behaviour. In my own experience I was able to improve the relationship single-handedly (it seemed) back in 2022, but for the past 1.5 years I have been split black around 99% of the time. If you were to look at my wife’s Facebook you would see about 3 posts each year on special occasions, about me being painted white and glowing, with happy smiling pictures of us, always a keeping it real comment about how things aren’t always easy but basically her going on about our love for each other. She had a professional musician write a song about us for Valentine’s Day last year. The main line of the song was, “I love my life with you”. I was stunned. She hates me. Nearly every day. I am “not good enough”. “DO BETTER!!!!!!” she screamed at me the other day because her water bottle leaked on the bed and apparently it was my fault because I hadn’t checked I put the lid on properly. (Incorrect). And I should have ran and got her a towel because, “I DON’T EVEN KNOW WHERE ANYTHING IS IN THIS HOUSE BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS TAKE OVER EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!” Anyway the ironic thing about the song was that I am a musician and I wrote a song for her a few years ago which she has refused to even listen to despite me trying lots to get her to initially. It was because I had shared a photo on Facebook with part of the sheet music on it and she was upset my musician friends would know the song before she did. Sorry everything seems to turn into a rant when I contribute on here. What I think is a common theme on here is when we learn the tools and start standing up for ourselves, saying no, stopping the constant apologising and desperation to please… we are stepping away from the caretaker role we (unwittingly) signed up for. They say pwbpd’s often have many unstable relationships, but in bpd fam there are many that have lasted many years. It’s because of us, always trying to please. It doesn’t make them happy, but our desperation to please does please them more than when we stop. But our children need to see us stand up to them. My wife laments that all our kids prefer me. It’s because of her erratic rages and shouting I think. I get angry and shout at the kids sometimes too but that’s after multiple warnings. She will just suddenly shout at them when they haven’t even done anything, because they got in her way or something. I’ve been proud of myself recently, with her shrieking at me and my calm response, “I’d like to be treated with respect”. When I joined bpd family I never dreamed I’d be standing up to her. I know it’s far from ideal for the kids to be exposed to it all, but I also know that one reason I was searching to change things was because I didn’t want the children growing up in a narcissistic family system. I do not always do what she says and I rarely apologise because I’m not at fault.

[CravingPeace]

Thank you Thankful person. So much of what you say I relate to.

One interesting thing you said about the song, that as she wasnt first she wasnt interested. My wife absolutley must be first, so if I buy something and she gets a wiff that anyone in the family has looked at it or used it or tried it. She is so unhappy .

I have definately stepped away from the caretaker role. I found an email from 2015 where I was apologising for not being able to protect her, and rescue her etc. Her response was so toxic. And what did I do, cry and apologise.

I no longer do it since midway through last year, I refuse to accept blame unless its fair, I refuse to argue, I say things like "I do not agree with that" or "no It did not happen like that" or "I am not interested in discussing this again". It shuts things down but now I no longer caretake and soothe her by taking the blame I wont lie our relationship is on its last legs. I also now realise I deserve more. See my other post from today where she really hurt my s7 for blaming him for something, it has now spread to the kids. So i feel my hand is being forced. I cant see them get damaged.

[ForeverDad]

In the final couple years of my marriage, I decided to apologize for anything and everything.  I had tried logic, reasoning, everything.  I wasn't aware of JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) yet at that time but I realized that hadn't worked.

So I jumped on the Total Apologize bandwagon.  Boy did that backfire.  I noticed then that she wasn't satisfied with one apology.  No, she told me I had missed a phrase and insisted I repeat my apology.  So I did, including that phrase but omitting some other part of the apology.  I swear, I recall a time I purposely was adding and omitting at least five times and she still demanded I repeat and comply yet again.  She absolutely did not discern my apologies had become a farce.

Finally after several months I stopped and told her I would apologize only when I felt an apology would be appropriate.  Did that reduce the dysfunction?  Not really.  Within a year the marriage had imploded, police and children's services got involved and we were not just in family court but also municipal court.

She never did come to the realization that apologies when demanded were meaningless.

[EyesUp]

Example of defensive accusation:

I walk into a room and smile at her.
She says "why are you laughing"
I say "I am not I was just smiling to say hi"
She says "I wasn't asking you to get defensive".

@CP,

My feeling is that there's no magic bullet, no secret handshake, and no special words that can solve this.  We can tie ourselves in knots trying to accommodate someone else's feelings - @FD's apology experiment is a perfect example.  He eventually came to understand that there was no acceptable version of an apology, even though his pwBPD was asking for one.

Sometimes we need to make the effort, to do these experiments - in order to prove something to ourselves. That we tried everything?  That there is no chance to achieve rational understanding? To get to a point where something else, somehow, some way, finally becomes clear?

In that spirit, I'll comment on the example you shared (above).

I say "I am not I was just smiling to say hi"
She says "I wasn't asking you to get defensive".

What do you think your W heard?  I'll bet it was only the first part

"I am not"

Which is, in fact, a direct contradiction. Followed by...

I was just

Which is, in fact, defensive.

By the time you get to

smiling to say hi

Your W is already in conflict mode based on a hyper intuitive reaction to perceived conflict based on contradiction and defense.

Of course, you're jammed because this all started with a counter-intuitive response to a smile in the first place. This is the behind-the-eight-ball dynamic that's very, very difficult to maneuver away from. Over time, it might feel like a setup - a trap.  "Here we go again..."

What are your options? 

- carefully, rigorously, attempt to restrict your own words (and facial expressions) to reduce the opportunity for reactivity
- avoid interactions in general
- try to explain your POV, request understanding
- impose a simple boundary such "I won't engage with a, b, c" or "I won't respond to x, y, z"

Let's face it: No good choices here. Can you add anything to the list?

But worth noting that the first two at least give you a bit of control - the only thing you can control is yourself.  And the first one provides a chance - probably small - to interact without conflict. 

How does that work? Completely avoid any negative words that can be construed as contradictions, arguments, defenses.

What does this look like?  Take it from the top...

I walk into a room and smile at her.
She says "why are you laughing"

- first, recognize that her comment to you, right out of the gate, is your hint that trouble is brewing. most likely, already brewed
- the difficult thing is to redirect your own behavior, so need to slow things way down - no automatic/reflexive responses.  certainly not defensive ones.
- boil it down to a statement with zero JADE.  some ideas/options:

I'm glad to be home
I'm glad to be done with work
I'm in a good mood
I'm having a good day
I have good news
I'm glad to see you
etc.

In each instance, there is no meta-comment or reflection back to her or her attitude, it's just 100% acceptance of her question (implied) because it's a concise affirmation of why you're smiling. This is also implied validation of her feelings - because there is zero reaction to her reaction, it's just acceptance.

This leaves the ball in her court. She may dig in her heels and insist that you're smiling for a different reason than the one you've shared. Or she might just let it go. Or she might overtly shift the focus to something about her (and whatever she shares at that point may or may not be why she's already primed for conflict)...

The point is: All this effort on your part gives you a chance to explore what actions you can take and possibly come to some new understanding about what's possible or not possible, and how you feel about it. 

In my case, I experienced something similar to what you describe - a lot. I think my uBPDxw arrived at the conclusion that my generally positive demeanor was an insult to her. I was never fully able to convince her that sometimes a smile was only about my feelings and not about hers, that smiling about a good day at work or fun with the kids was not mocking her, or that in many, many, many social situations in which some degree of conflict is present, a smile is the easiest way to defuse and disarm...  my x is smart, but like many of us - she only heard what she wanted to hear. In retrospect, all those comments amounted to JADE and basically added fuel to fire.

I read your comments about what's holding you back - All very clear, fair, and reasonable. Do you think that attempting some new communication tactics could change anything?

[CravingPeace]

Thanks Fd and eyesup.

FD very relatable. In the past when i have tried to apologise she just tells me its not an apology it needs to be more sincere , or said in a different way, or she isn't ready to hear it yet etc

Eyesup absolutely these are good tips, a normal person wouldn't have questioned why I was smiling. It would have just been an innocent hello with most people, but I was just highlighting how even the smallest of things turn into an unpleasant interaction. I realise how I have been impacted over the years by the constant unecessary drama, frankly my nervous system is shot. But yes there are good tips I could learn to do handle these interactions better, and I should for the sake of the children.

But I also don't feel it's a life I want to lead. I think I can do better. Ive had the kids today and we have had a great time. I asked s7 why he is so chilled when its just us and why he gets so angry when mummy and daddy are in the house at the same time. He said because you argue. He is right, although I have refused to argue for the past 3 or 4 months. Before that there was plenty generally with my wife "needing to talk" or "having a question for me". Which generally decended into her unreasonably critising  me and looking for an apology, usually mutiple problems one after another, me defending and her getting angry. Since I stopped Jading it is alot better. However A week or so back my wife was trying to pick fights I refused to engage, so she picked another one about the next thing on her list. S7 walked in and she screamed at him to get out. Its really not healthy and the impact on the kids is what will force my hand.

But yes I can absolutely try even harder to not Jade. Thanks for the tips.

[Pook075]

In my situation (24 year marriage), my wife left suddenly with some temptation.  Shortly afterwards, she brought up what a bad husband I was and mentioned a handful of incidents from 5, 10, 20+ years ago.  What became clear is that she never forgave me for one-off arguments and held grudges throughout our marriage.  I had always forgiven her and we hadn't had a real argument in a decade, so I thought we were fine.  Yet we clearly weren't.

I don't think my wife was splitting for 24 years, but I do believe that once she sunk down in depression, she focused on only the bad stuff and painted me black.  We've regained friendship, even though we divorced recently, and she's made it very clear that she can't go back to the trauma or abuse.  She's no longer split on me though and we can have productive conversations.

My BPD daughter also left her husband 4 years ago and she still hates him, still paints him black...but they've also had zero communication.  So there's no way to reverse that without further action.

[thankful person]

One interesting thing you said about the song, that as she wasnt first she wasnt interested. My wife absolutley must be first, so if I buy something and she gets a wiff that anyone in the family has looked at it or used it or tried it. She is so unhappy .

I totally relate to this. Once my Mum wanted to pay for my wife’s hair appointment as a surprise gift and my wife refused it and cancelled the appointment, because she was so angry that me and Mum had spoken (online) to her hairdresser behind her back. In this instance I thought it was safe because it was literally a photo I shared of my piano keyboard with some sheet music handwritten with like one line of lyrics and music. Sharing with the world that I was writing our song which I did because she’s obsessed with Facebook.I wrote the song to thank her for carrying our babies when she was pregnant with our first. I guess in hindsight it was also a sign of how jealous she was to become of my love for and relationship with our kids.

Anyway, I wish you all the best with your courage to end things and do the best thing for your son and yourself. If there’s one thing I’ve noticed on here it’s that people who take those brave steps don’t regret it. I have also noticed how relaxed the kids are when my wife’s not around. As they all “prefer” me, she is trying to pressure me into somehow making them love her more. Or guilting D4 into doing her a picture at nursery rather than me (terrible incident Valentine’s Day when D4 only made a heart for me “because I love Mama and I don’t love Mummy”.) i absolutely refuse to drag the kids into this. I absolutely do not want to talk to them about her when she’s not around (which is hardly ever). No way I’m going to try and change their behaviour or feelings towards her. If they don’t like her that’s for her to think about.

[ForeverDad]

It is a challenge to "forgive and forget".  (Side note: due to the stress of the discord in our relationships we may have truly forgotten a lot of stressful incidents.)

So a better way to phrase it is "Forgive and Let Go".  We here are reasonably normal people, we can do that, though we find ourselves in difficult relationships.  We really can Let Go.  It's a shock to discover that many of our spouses or ex-spouses can't or won't Let Go.  All it takes a trigger from almost anything to cause the past to rise up again.

That's why we get unreasonable demands to repeatedly apologize for the same incident, over and over, even when dredged up from years past.

It also comes back to perceptions, the pwBPD perceives their perception, their hurt, their feelings... as facts, their own 'self' version of reality.

[thankful person]

even the smallest of things turn into an unpleasant interaction.

My wife has painted me blackest black today, when I greeted her this morning and she mocked me for how I always ask, how are you doing? How was your night? Or how are you feeling? I’m not allowed to talk about the kids or housework or work or anything else before I ask about her. I’m not allowed to say nothing. I might try just smiling tomorrow that’s a new one.

[CravingPeace]

My wife has painted me blackest black today, when I greeted her this morning and she mocked me for how I always ask, how are you doing? How was your night? Or how are you feeling? I’m not allowed to talk about the kids or housework or work or anything else before I ask about her. I’m not allowed to say nothing. I might try just smiling tomorrow that’s a new one.

Ha yeah just be careful you dont get accused of smirking at her.

Today we went for lunch kids were so excited. S7 kept asking questions which was cute. My wife told him to "just relax". Its so controlling and unfair.

Later the baby dropped something on the floor. My wife was trying to look for it, s7 said where is it mummy. She said "oh I don't know s7, i wouldnt be looking for it if i knew would I?".  He sat back quietly and a little piece of me (and him I guess) died. She sounded just like her npd mum who she hates . Seconds before she had been all smily and happy. You never know ehat you will get. I realise its this inconsistent behaviour that has kept me in for so long, but its also one of the most damaging behaviours for kids. They never know if they are "safe"

[thankful person]

Ha yeah just be careful you dont get accused of smirking at her.

Today we went for lunch kids were so excited. S7 kept asking questions which was cute. My wife told him to "just relax". Its so controlling and unfair.

Later the baby dropped something on the floor. My wife was trying to look for it, s7 said where is it mummy. She said "oh I don't know s7, i wouldnt be looking for it if i knew would I?".  He sat back quietly and a little piece of me (and him I guess) died. She sounded just like her npd mum who she hates . Seconds before she had been all smily and happy. You never know ehat you will get. I realise its this inconsistent behaviour that has kept me in for so long, but its also one of the most damaging behaviours for kids. They never know if they are "safe"

I totally understand. My wife is also unpredictable in her reactions to the kids and can move them to tears with a sudden short outburst. They often refer to her as “angry”. I do see my wife trying to be extra loving and fun to try and make it up to them when she realises she was out of order. I know it’s not good enough and it distresses me that I rarely interfere in that moment because she’d only get more angry. All I feel I can do is give them comfort and support and as they grow up knowledge and strength to try and help them navigate this crazy relationship. I am conflicted because I can’t erase her from their lives and I wouldn’t want to, just the negative bits. D4 has eczema and recently had chicken pox and she is still scratching herself and I think it’s anxiety related and it breaks my heart.

[CravingPeace]

Yeah totally its the extra loving/ over the top mum then a minute late saying something unfair or guilt/shame led that I read is really damaging. I do the same and say nothing for fear of escalating. But sadly if you go on reddit raisedbyborderlines group they call the non that doesn't do anything the enabler and many say they grew up hating the enabler more than the bpd. As the bpd was ill, the enabler sat and watched the abuse for "an easier life" so was complicit.

This is what I must change as I do not want to be thought of as enabling abuse. What I want to be is the lighthouse that protects and guides.

[thankful person]

That is very disturbing. I hope my children will see that I have always done my best, trying to stand up for myself and them when I can but also trying to avoid even more angry outbursts. I have made lots of progress but I know it’s not good enough.