Do they actually believe this stuff?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

My husband and I had another fight last night. It was maybe a little bit my fault. I'm really stressed out from work right now, so when I got home I was just in the mood to have some quiet time and be left alone.

The problem was my H started doing that thing where he forces me to hug him. He grabbed me and hugged me and just wouldn't let go. He said, "Doesn't this feel nice? Doesn't it make you more relaxed?" Of course it doesn't. At this point just being around him makes my heartrate go up even if he's being "nice." Usually I just let him do it until he's done, but this time I tried to tell him I am really not in the mood and I just want to be left alone. He said when we were first dating, I used to love hugging and cuddling (he loves to use that argument now), so I told them a lot has happened since then, and then I lost my temper and started reminding him of all the things that have happened since then that might make it so I don't like hugging him anymore.

So that turned into a big long fight with him yelling at me about all the things that are wrong with me, and how I'm actually the real problem in the relationship, that I'm really the abusive one, etc. Along the way he refused to eat the dinner I made from him because he said it's probably poisoned, and he accused me of child abuse of our 4D. He said I'm completely deranged, he thinks I'm probably a sociopath, etc, etc.

So I asked him, "Do you really think your dinner is poisoned?" He said yes, he does. And then I asked him, "And you really think I abuse our child"?" He said yes he does.

"And yet you still want to hug me and snuggle me and love on me and have sex with me?"

Then he kind of sputtered. I could tell I got him. "Well, everyone has their flaws," he finally said.

Then I kind of sarcastically mocked him and went, "Yeah, you may be a psychopath who is trying to murder me and you may be a child abuser, but oh well everyone has their flaws!" and then I walked away.

Yes, I know that was not the best way to handle it, but I was really tired and stressed and lost my temper. I really should have just let him hug me and kept my mouth shut.

But still, I'm back to wondering, does he really believe any of this stuff? Because if I genuinely thought that someone had poisoned my dinner, I would not want to hug them. I would not be sexually attracted to someone who abused my child.

Basically, if he really believed all the stuff he says about me, why wouldn't he want a divorce? Sounds to me like I'd be doing him a favor by divorcing him. He'll finally be free of my awfulness!

I know this is splitting, and he was splitting me black, but it just seems crazy to me that on some level he doesn't realize that this makes no sense. He accuses me of child abuse and says he's afraid to leave our 4D alone with me, but he leaves her alone with me all the time! That's not the actions of someone who is genuinely afraid for their child's safety. If I thought someone was abusing 4D, I would not leave her alone all day with them while I went off shopping or working on my hobbies or whatever. Let alone do it on a regular basis.

I just wonder if he's delusional enough to try some of these accusations in court. I know it's one thing to say stuff in the heat of battle, but does he really believe this stuff enough to try to make the argument before a judge? And if so, will the judge buy it?

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop cooking him dinner. I'll make something for myself and 4D, but he can eat his own, non-poisoned food. He's always complaining that he doesn't like my cooking anyway.

[Gerda]

My husband and I had another fight last night. It was maybe a little bit my fault. I'm really stressed out from work right now, so when I got home I was just in the mood to have some quiet time and be left alone.

The problem was my H started doing that thing where he forces me to hug him. He grabbed me and hugged me and just wouldn't let go. He said, "Doesn't this feel nice? Doesn't it make you more relaxed?" Of course it doesn't. At this point just being around him makes my heartrate go up even if he's being "nice." Usually I just let him do it until he's done, but this time I tried to tell him I am really not in the mood and I just want to be left alone. He said when we were first dating, I used to love hugging and cuddling (he loves to use that argument now), so I told them a lot has happened since then, and then I lost my temper and started reminding him of all the things that have happened since then that might make it so I don't like hugging him anymore.

So that turned into a big long fight with him yelling at me about all the things that are wrong with me, and how I'm actually the real problem in the relationship, that I'm really the abusive one, etc. Along the way he refused to eat the dinner I made from him because he said it's probably poisoned, and he accused me of child abuse of our 4D. He said I'm completely deranged, he thinks I'm probably a sociopath, etc, etc.

So I asked him, "Do you really think your dinner is poisoned?" He said yes, he does. And then I asked him, "And you really think I abuse our child"?" He said yes he does.

"And yet you still want to hug me and snuggle me and love on me and have sex with me?"

Then he kind of sputtered. I could tell I got him. "Well, everyone has their flaws," he finally said.

Then I kind of sarcastically mocked him and went, "Yeah, you may be a psychopath who is trying to murder me and you may be a child abuser, but oh well everyone has their flaws!" and then I walked away.

Yes, I know that was not the best way to handle it, but I was really tired and stressed and lost my temper. I really should have just let him hug me and kept my mouth shut.

But still, I'm back to wondering, does he really believe any of this stuff? Because if I genuinely thought that someone had poisoned my dinner, I would not want to hug them. I would not be sexually attracted to someone who abused my child.

Basically, if he really believed all the stuff he says about me, why wouldn't he want a divorce? Sounds to me like I'd be doing him a favor by divorcing him. He'll finally be free of my awfulness!

I know this is splitting, and he was splitting me black, but it just seems crazy to me that on some level he doesn't realize that this makes no sense. He accuses me of child abuse and says he's afraid to leave our 4D alone with me, but he leaves her alone with me all the time! That's not the actions of someone who is genuinely afraid for their child's safety. If I thought someone was abusing 4D, I would not leave her alone all day with them while I went off shopping or working on my hobbies or whatever. Let alone do it on a regular basis.

I just wonder if he's delusional enough to try some of these accusations in court. I know it's one thing to say stuff in the heat of battle, but does he really believe this stuff enough to try to make the argument before a judge? And if so, will the judge buy it?

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop cooking him dinner. I'll make something for myself and 4D, but he can eat his own, non-poisoned food. He's always complaining that he doesn't like my cooking anyway.

[findthewayhome]

I think they really believe things in the moment. I have taken to if my wife says something to thinking she actually means it right then. She probably won't in ten minutes, or two weeks she will probably think something else.

In terms of food this is interesting, if we are having a row and she makes dinner I will still eat it and say thanks to be polite.

If I make dinner and she is annoyed with me, she will leave it, and have a bowl of cereal of something. I always thought it was strange. It was like she didn't want to accept something from me when annoyed with me. I assume she didn't think I poisoned it???

[yellowbutterfly]

wow

This reminds me of when my xH uBPD went to the family court and claimed I committed 16 crimes against him and he was terrified of me and his safety, that I was abusive. He wrote pages of "incidents" and ways I abused him. Stories with dates and "facts".

Then, later that day when he came home he was surprised to see me, saying that he had an order of protection excluding me from the home to protect himself from my abuse.

After I agreed to speak with him, since he wouldn't leave me alone, he sat down and said if I would agree to stay with him he would drop the OP and dismiss the charges.

My response, "never, I love myself more than I will ever love you." And I never saw him again in person. Granted the next year plus was hell with divorce and PTSD but it was the best decision I ever made.

Sending strength to you right now.

[Gerda]

This reminds me of when my xH uBPD went to the family court and claimed I committed 16 crimes against him and he was terrified of me and his safety, that I was abusive. He wrote pages of "incidents" and ways I abused him. Stories with dates and "facts".
...

After I agreed to speak with him, since he wouldn't leave me alone, he sat down and said if I would agree to stay with him he would drop the OP and dismiss the charges.

Yes, it's crazy isn't it?

Your husband says he's terrified of you and abusive and all that, enough to go to court and get a protective order, but still wants you to stay with him?

If we were really as horrible as they said they were, why do they want to stay with us?

And then my husband goes, "Well we all have our flaws," as if he's talking about some annoying habit I have like leaving my socks on the floor or something, and not ATTEMPTED MURDER and CHILD ABUSE.

Ugh... I guess right now my mind is trying to remind myself that I'm not the crazy one here, he is. I need reminding sometimes after I've just gone through a few hours of him yelling at me about how everything is all my fault and I still have that little voice in my head going, "what if it is all my fault?"

[Outdorenthusiast]

In my experience - the words don’t matter, and 8 times out of 10 they are said in anger and they truly don’t believe them when things are calm.  They say them to hurt us and attack our strongest values/soft spots because they feel enormously hurt and they lack the capability to regulate.  The are like a child lashing out and calling names to a friend on the playground.  Later there is actually remorse sometimes, although many times they are too insecure to repair their mistakes….

It doesn’t at all forgive the behavior and the effect on us.  Very sorry as those were hurtful words, and very difficult to not react.  Clearly it was hard for him to empathize and acted like a child.

[Gerda]

Well after work today my H is acting like everything's fine.

He grabbed me and started hugging me again. I asked him if he still thinks I'm trying to poison him. He said, "Let's just make up and forget about all that." I said see, this is another example of what I was talking about yesterday, about how he'll say one thing one day, and then tell me to forget about it the next day, or say the exact opposite thing the next day, so I've learned that nothing he says matters.

But when I said that to him during the fight yesterday, he got all offended. "How can you say nothing I say matters? That's such a hurtful thing to say!" etc.

And now he's telling me to forget all about it and hug and snuggle again. I was tempted to bring up him accusing me of child abuse yesterday, but I decided to go ahead and drop it.

I worry about the effect this kind of behavior is going to have on our daughter going into the future. It's confusing and frustrating enough to me, and I'm a adult and have learned some things about BPD.

Then again, my mom probably has BPD, so I have an idea of what that's like. The thing is, my mom only got really bad when I reached my teen years. I'm worried my husband's behavior is already affecting our daughter at four. She's already attempting to defend me and break us up when we have fights. A four year old shouldn't have to do that.

One of these days she's also going to have to learn that she just can't believe anything her dad says.

[zondolit]

I remember my husband also sputtering--for a moment shocked--when I once asked: if I'm as bad as you say (child abuser being the worst accusation, but no end of accusations), why would you ever stay married to me? He was momentarily caught off balance but soon recovered and returned to his regular antics.

The problem with my question, as I see it now, was that it was a logical question and he just does not respond to logic in these situations. So the question was really for me: I was saying aloud "this doesn't add up." Which I really needed in the hall-of-mirrors atmosphere of continually being told there's something wrong with me.

I think it is good that you've brought up hard stuff after the fact. Often the temptation is to let is slide and then let it slide some more.Things are going kind of well? Then let's try to forget that other stuff ever happened. . .

[Outdorenthusiast]

I think it is good that you've brought up hard stuff after the fact. Often the temptation is to let is slide and then let it slide some more.Things are going kind of well? Then let's try to forget that other stuff ever happened. . .

This is wise advice and in the correct context can be used very powerfully to shift the status quo.  In my relationship she would rage also and be completely illogical.  I felt there wasn’t a path forward so the quickest path towards peace was to capitulate.   I finally broke the cycle of capitulation.  When I returned later and said that this constant emotional rollercoaster and turmoil was killing me emotionally and I couldn’t do it anymore it was breaking me - She needed to get help.  I also explained that it was breaking our kids.  She finally agreed to get therapy.  About 9 months into her weekly therapy - it finally stopped, and it has been more than a year since then..

Maybe this can jog some thoughts…, what do you think?

[Gerda]

This is wise advice and in the correct context can be used very powerfully to shift the status quo.  In my relationship she would rage also and be completely illogical.  I felt there wasn’t a path forward so the quickest path towards peace was to capitulate.   I finally broke the cycle of capitulation.  When I returned later and said that this constant emotional rollercoaster and turmoil was killing me emotionally and I couldn’t do it anymore it was breaking me - She needed to get help.  I also explained that it was breaking our kids.  She finally agreed to get therapy.  About 9 months into her weekly therapy - it finally stopped, and it has been more than a year since then..

Maybe this can jog some thoughts…, what do you think?

I'm afraid I've already tried something like this, and it's not going to work with my husband. I've told him about the emotional rollercoaster. I've told him about how he's like Jekyll and Hyde. His response is always that I need to "forgive and forget" and move on, and if I'm still upset about it (even if it's only a day later), then I'm "carrying a grudge" and then I'm the problem, not him.

We did marriage counseling for about 6 months last year. He got into rages afterward whenever he felt the MC was being too hard on him. Finally the MC said that we both needed to get into individual therapy or else she's ending the marriage counseling. I went into individual therapy. He didn't. She ended the marriage counseling.

I'm at the point where I think I've pretty much tried everything, and nothing has worked. He's never going to stop. He wants to just keep doing it, and for me to keep "forgiving him" right afterward, and if I stay with him, he'll keep doing it for the rest of his life.

[ForeverDad]

We did marriage counseling for about 6 months last year. He got into rages afterward whenever he felt the MC was being too hard on him. Finally the MC said that we both needed to get into individual therapy or else she's ending the marriage counseling. I went into individual therapy. He didn't. She ended the marriage counseling.

The purpose of marriage counseling, as understood here, is to redirect and repair the marriage.  If both spouses are not working along with the program, then the marriage counseling - and likely too the marriage - has failed.

I'm at the point where I think I've pretty much tried everything, and nothing has worked. He's never going to stop. He wants to just keep doing it, and for me to keep "forgiving him" right afterward, and if I stay with him, he'll keep doing it for the rest of his life.

You've done what you could.  You've supported and encouraged what you could.  You're not Superwoman able to bend steel with your bare hands.  That's okay.  It is what it is.

[Pook075]

Hey Gerda.

You've talked about leaving for awhile now, but you wanted to wait for the right time.  Have you figured out the timing yet?

[Outdorenthusiast]

I'm afraid I've already tried something like this, and it's not going to work with my husband. I've told him about the emotional rollercoaster. I've told him about how he's like Jekyll and Hyde. His response is always that I need to "forgive and forget" and move on, and if I'm still upset about it (even if it's only a day later), then I'm "carrying a grudge" and then I'm the problem, not him.

You are doing the right thing.  You can’t fix this in marriage counseling - it is something he needs to address in his own counseling and he has to have a reason to do it.  What is his motivation?  What is your boundary? 

Mine was - She can choose to not address her emotional instability, and not get help and I can choose to emotionally decompress and sleep in a safe place by myself (guest bedroom).  I explained I wasn’t abandoning, (I pointed to the ring on my finger) but I couldn’t take it anymore.  This isn’t about forgiveness.  I can forgive.  This is about respect and friendship and her emotional instability.  She was not demonstrating polite treatment of me even as nice friend.  Friends don’t jeckyl and Hyde and remain friends.  She cried and cried - and signed up for counseling.

For you - stopping emotional abuse comes from you and your individual counselor and the tools you can learn to set rules you are 100% in control of.  Some marriages can be saved, some cannot.  Both have to put in the work individually.

So… what is your emotional and healthy boundary?  If not abandonment and divorce, are there creative alternatives like mine?  What is his motivation given by you for him to get individual help that won’t trigger fears of abandonment?

[jaded7]

In my experience - the words don’t matter, and 8 times out of 10 they are said in anger and they truly don’t believe them when things are calm.  They say them to hurt us and attack our strongest values/soft spots because they feel enormously hurt and they lack the capability to regulate.  The are like a child lashing out and calling names to a friend on the playground.  Later there is actually remorse sometimes, although many times they are too insecure to repair their mistakes….

It doesn’t at all forgive the behavior and the effect on us.  Very sorry as those were hurtful words, and very difficult to not react.  Clearly it was hard for him to empathize and acted like a child.

I think you actually nailed it precisely here Out. They say these things to attack us at our soft spots and vulnerabilities because that is the best target. This has been my experience as well, and it was always precipitated by me saying 'no' (kindly, gently, lovingly) to something, or pointing out some way her behavior had hurt me. Always.

Why do they do this? My best guess is they are feeling some combination of abandoned and rejected and some shame, and they cannot tolerate this feeling. Even if it's a simple 'no' or 'you hurt me'.

To externalize the feeling, it seems they will then attack us at the most vulnerable spots to get rid of that feeling. Likely, not thinking at all about the hurt it will cause or the rumination it will spawn.

I don't think, deep down, they really believe these things they say to us. Like Gerda said, you think these things about me yet still want to snuggle and have sex????? It doesn't make sense.

It's about reestablishing the power dynamic in their emotional minds I think.

[livednlearned]

I'm at the point where I think I've pretty much tried everything, and nothing has worked. He's never going to stop. He wants to just keep doing it, and for me to keep "forgiving him" right afterward, and if I stay with him, he'll keep doing it for the rest of his life.

We don't often talk about behaviorism here but often that's kinda where many of our relationships end up. In a relationship with BPD traits, boundaries are often about altering behavior patterns.

Many of us cannot appeal to feelings and thoughts or expect the disordered person to come to a place of genuine understanding. In some cases, the negative attention they get from expressing bad behaviors is just as satisfying as positive attention from positive behaviors.

Boundaries must be ones you can and will assert, and be willing to do so repeatedly, either until the behavior changes or you tire of the effort.

It sounds like he knows he can wear you down, and this may actually be what he considers normal.

How would he respond if you said you needed to decompress before hugging. Either you do it when you come in the door (on your terms), or you do it alone in your room for xx minutes.

[PeteWitsend]

Over time I realized that the "do they actually believe the stuff they say?" was the wrong question to ask.

You need to focus on what to do about it, and not trouble yourself with wondering why.

For years my mom and my aunt (both having been on the receiving end of BPDxw's rages) would ask me how she could've acted like that, why did she think that way, etc etc... I told them finally to stop wondering...  they were trying to understand a disordered mind. They might as well complain about Looney Tunes not being grounded in reality.

Similarly, I also got some satisfaction after making the "If I'm so bad, why are you still here?" and "If all the stuff you're claiming is true, what are we even doing then?"

But there really wasn't a point in that either... it didn't cause her to reconsider her position.  She didn't say "Yeah, you're right.  I've been unfair." or admit she just said whatever suited her in the moment... she just got a stupid look on her face and stayed quiet until she could make something else up or dodge the question and continue attacking.

All this - to me - drives home the point that you have to remember that you're in the driver's seat; you have to decide how you're going to handle the pointless fights, accusations,  FOG, etc. 

I understand how hard it is to manage your affairs with the other  adult in the room acting like an overgrown toddler, but they are what they are and you need to try to preserve as much of your mental and physical energy as you can on what matters and not let them drag you into the proverbial mud 

[PeteWitsend]

...
All this - to me - drives home the point that you have to remember that you're in the driver's seat; you have to decide how you're going to handle the pointless fights, accusations,  FOG, etc. 

I understand how hard it is to manage your affairs with the other  adult in the room acting like an overgrown toddler, but they are what they are and you need to try to preserve as much of your mental and physical energy as you can on what matters and not let them drag you into the proverbial mud 

There was another guy here who had a good approach to this.  He had trained himself mentally - like Pavlov's Dog - to not take the bait when his BPD partner said or did crazy things.  This way, he would not be inclined to get on the roller coaster and go up and down.  Instead, he'd tell himself he was now in Crazytown and normal rules for speaking to another adult no longer applied.   

He used as an example, his BPDw coming into the kitchen as he was getting his son ready for school & making his lunch.  She started screaming about the lunch... there was something she didn't like about it.  Instead of engaging and defending himself or arguing she was wrong, he would listen, acknowledge her, and deflect the issue to later, knowing she either wouldn't remember, or didn't actually care about what she was yelling about, since her intent was just to pick a fight, not actually stop him from making the lunch (which she wouldn't want to do herself). 

I suppose that's a corollary to understanding pwBPD say whatever in the moment to provoke a fight, or excuse their behavior - whether they actually believe it or not... You can do that too!  If they're not willing to live in reality, you don't have to either (at least not when dealing with them). 

[Gerda]

Hey Gerda.

You've talked about leaving for awhile now, but you wanted to wait for the right time.  Have you figured out the timing yet?

Almost. I'm a college instructor. This week is final exams, then next week summer vacation starts. The plan was to start seriously working on leaving then. Well, "then" is almost "now."

I'm getting huge amounts of anxiety about it, which may be part of why I lost my temper the other day in the first place. Then a couple of days ago, husband said, "You've been acting strangely lately. Is something going on that I don't know about?" I told him no, nothing he doesn't already know about (I mean, he SHOULD know that our relationship is in serious trouble. It's not like I've been hiding that from him.)

Yesterday, on the advice of my therapist, I created another email account that he doesn't know about. She also thinks I should change all my PINs and passwords. I haven't done that yet.

Then I emailed 4 local lawyers about scheduling free consultations, and downloaded the application to get a PO Box at my local post office.

After work today I'm going to check my secret email address and see if anyone's replied yet. I'm starting to do "real" things. It's terrifying.


All this stuff about setting boundaries... I just don't think it will ever work. I've tried. Even the other day when we had that big fight, it started with me just calmly telling him I don't want a hug right now. But he kept doing it, and doing it, and saying I should want a hug, and I just lost my temper. He really thinks that forcing me to hug him/kiss him/have sex with him is "being affectionate" and if I ever tell him "no thanks," then I'm the bad guy here. I'm the one that 100% started that fight by saying I don't feel like hugging him. He told me that right in front of D4.

He's also just blatantly told me before that he doesn't think we should have any boundaries. It was after one of our counseling sessions when the MC talked about boundaries. I thought she said a lot of reasonable stuff, but right afterward, he just says to me, "You realize everything she just said is complete nonsense, right?" He later sent me this long email about how these "boundaries" (put in quotes by him) I want to set up will turn us into roommates, and he doesn't want a roommate, he wants a lover, so if I don't want to be his lover, I have until noon Saturday to let him know my decision or else he's ending the relationship.

Of course, I didn't give him his answer by the deadline, and he didn't end the relationship, but he thinks boundaries are some kind of "pop psychology BS" and are exactly the opposite of what our relationship needs.

(And I did read in one of my books about BPD that you're not supposed to actually tell the person you are setting boundaries with them, you're supposed to just do it, but that all came up in marriage counseling.)

I did keep that email.

[Pook075]

He's also just blatantly told me before that he doesn't think we should have any boundaries.

With boundaries- nobody likes being told, "You can't do this to me anymore."  But here's the thing, it's not about him...it's about you.  It's yours.

You control your personal boundaries.  It's100% your decision how to react when someone invades your personal space.  You simply need to do it in a consistent way so he understands that it's a line he's not allowed to cross.

But what if he crosses the line anyway?  Like the hugging thing.  That's where the actual boundary comes in at, what you'll do in those situations.  From that point forward, his actions don't matter...it's your words and actions that decide how things will play out.

You don't have to say, "Stop, you're crossing my boundary!"  He doesn't respect your boundaries so those are wasted words.  Instead, it's your reaction in those moments that's important.  Maybe you say, "I don't want a hug right now" and push him away.  And maybe he becomes even more touchy feely with an explanation of how you're over-reacting.  Or maybe he becomes upset.  This is where the boundary truly comes into play; will you stand your ground (boundary-wise) or will you give in to his demands?

If he continues, a boundary could be walking away, or leaving the house entirely.  He will behave badly just like anyone would because he doesn't understand that he's crossing a line that really bothers you.  So you must make it known by your actions that it's not okay.  Make it crystal clear.

Just know that once you start down this path, your necessary next steps can come into play very quickly.  If he gets it and backs down some, then you can go slower.  But it's possible that the opposite will be true as well and you must be prepared. 

So keep doing what you're doing, even with the anxiety.  You're on the right path and your options need to be in place.

[PeteWitsend]

...

Just know that once you start down this path, your necessary next steps can come into play very quickly.  ...

This is very true, especially if "leaving the house" is the only way to enforce the boundary, because the pwBPD is very aggressive at pushing it. 

It may help to add reassuring words like "I'm leaving until you stop" or "I'm leaving until you calm down" as opposed to just "You did XYZ, I'm leaving" but it may not matter to them when they're really dysregulated.

In the heat of the moment, you see their paranoia and anger take over, and push you even harder, and then you're like "oh wow, either I back down, or we're separating right now, I guess."

[kells76]

Hey Gerda;

I'm getting huge amounts of anxiety about it, which may be part of why I lost my temper the other day in the first place. Then a couple of days ago, husband said, "You've been acting strangely lately. Is something going on that I don't know about?" I told him no, nothing he doesn't already know about (I mean, he SHOULD know that our relationship is in serious trouble. It's not like I've been hiding that from him.)

Yesterday, on the advice of my therapist, I created another email account that he doesn't know about. She also thinks I should change all my PINs and passwords. I haven't done that yet.

Then I emailed 4 local lawyers about scheduling free consultations, and downloaded the application to get a PO Box at my local post office.

After work today I'm going to check my secret email address and see if anyone's replied yet. I'm starting to do "real" things. It's terrifying.

This is hard stuff. In my own way, I know how you feel. We may have to call CPS about the kids' mom's house (DV and neglect), and we may have to do it in a matter of days. The anxiety is huge, I understand.

I have been taking baby steps that are right up to the edge but not the full plunge in -- I've called our local DV hotline twice (they are not mandatory reporters so they don't do stuff out of your control), and I've made two calls to DHS that were "hypothetical" situations -- they can still tell you the whole process and what to expect, without initiating an investigation, if you say it's an "example" situation.

Both the hotline and DHS were so, so, so supportive and kind and nonjudgmental. It was a huge relief to talk to actual people and see if they were harsh/rigid/pushy or understanding and calm. It was definitely the latter. I hate that we're in a position of having to talk to DV hotlines and DHS, but now that I've done the un-official calls, I 110% recommend it. It is a huge relief to know actual information.

Do you have a place/time you could call a hotline or DHS about your situation? I did from my car at work. Let me know how it goes if you do.

[livednlearned]

I think it's really common when we start to imagine ourselves leaving that the pwBPD senses it. I spent years preparing emotionally and psychologically to leave, then started doing "real" things with an exit plan (while n/BPDx would be at a conference). He sensed something different and picked a few fights that were off the charts. I went into work one morning and got a text from one of our credit cards that my access was frozen. It felt like a shot across the bow. There was nothing he could pinpoint, it was more like an abuser's radar picking up a different, faint signal that something was amiss. I was too close to leaving when he started to close credit cards. I don't think he knew I would get an alert, I think he was starting to do what I was doing, preparing to take control, except in the opposite direction where he was trying to make it impossible for me to leave.

Anxiety can be helpful during a crisis because it helps you imagine what might happen. You can prepare contingencies. Unfortunately, anxiety feels awful. In my case, I was set to move out the following week but the frozen account tipped me off that our weekend was setting up to be a cat 5 hurricane. I ended up leaving that day.

All that anxiety and heightened awareness kinda paid off because I had a plan in place. There were some gaping holes but enough there in place that I could problem-solve in a more or less informed way. I was so private with friends about what was going on but having a kid kind of upended that. There were time I needed someone to take care of (then) S9 so I could deal with law enforcement and teachers and lawyers and counselors.

Once you get into the chute it's more straightforward because we pick a lane and everything starts to head in the same direction. Not that the stress goes away but the big question that consumed so much attention is now out of the way so you can focus on other things.

It's huge that you have this board. I had a lot of guardian angels helping me in real person but this board was a true godsend. There is nothing like having the support of people who walked this path before you. 

[Gerda]

This is very true, especially if "leaving the house" is the only way to enforce the boundary, because the pwBPD is very aggressive at pushing it. 

Leaving the house is hard with D4 around though. I don't want to leave her with him, but taking her with me would have its own challenges.

For example, that incident last month where he woke me up at 11 pm to tell me he's figured out I'm divorcing him. I ended up telling him I'm ending this conversation and going to bed now, but then he woke me up again at 3 am to yell at me some more. (And actually woke me up from a nightmare I was having about him... a nightmare that ended up coming true!)

His voice kept getting louder until he started to wake D4 up. I asked him, "Are you going to leave me alone, or am I going to have to spend the rest of tonight in a hotel?" He said something like, "Maybe I'm the one who should go to a hotel!" I said "sure, great, go to a hotel and leave me alone!"

But he wouldn't. He kept yelling, and then I realized that it wouldn't really be very feasible for me to go to a hotel right then anyway. I didn't want to wake D4 up. It would be this big long thing getting her up and in the car, and husband would probably rage and accuse me of kidnapping her. I also didn't want to leave D4 there, because she might wake up and wonder where Mommy is, and find out I had abandoned her, and what horrible things would husband say to her about me? It was also a weeknight, and I had work in the morning, and D4 had preschool, so how would that work?

So I ended up physically pushing Husband out of the bedroom and locking the door behind him. Then spent a long time trying to get back to sleep afraid he'd try to come in again.

And now he's using that incident as proof that I'm the physically abusive one, because I'm the one who "laid hands" on him. Of course I didn't come anywhere near hurting him or anything. I was just trying to get him to leave me alone. It was starting to look like he was about to keep me up all night (which he has done many times before).

If it wasn't for D4 I would have left, but I didn't want to wake her up, and I didn't want to leave her, so I was pretty much trapped. And this isn't the first time something like this has happened.

[Pook075]

If it wasn't for D4 I would have left, but I didn't want to wake her up, and I didn't want to leave her, so I was pretty much trapped. And this isn't the first time something like this has happened.

Gerda, if you're serious about getting out, then nothing he says, thinks, or demands matters.  As soon as you decide that you're definitely leaving, then we no longer have to worry about his opinion at all.

What you do have to decide is where you and your daughter will go on a moment's notice.  You can't stay in the abuse because you might be late for work tomorrow or because your kid will be upset.  These are very minor things compared to escaping his abuse.  Now is the time to focus on you and your daughter.

Because here's the thing- every time he makes accusations and you do nothing, he becomes empowered.  If you say you're leaving and don't leave, then he's enabled to become even more nasty, more vengeful the next time. 

Many of us here are worried about this escalating and we want you & your kid to be safe.  I know you love him and hope things will improve, but that's almost impossible without you standing up to him and being ready to roll with the consequences.  That's the only way he learns that his abuse is not okay.

I'm praying for you!

[Tangled mangled]

Gerda ,
U can relate I o feeling of being trapped, as I experienced the forced hugs and forced pretence that all is okay.

In my case, the nature of my training was such that I was doing myself a ton of harm keeping the relationship a secret. I had no other choice but to escalate matters early to get all services involved. He blamed me for months the first time the police came to our home. My children were showing behavioural issues too and joined their dad to blame me. I’m not advocating escalating matters like I did but if that’s the way out then so be it.
He will continue to be that way, accusing you, blame shifting and all until someone external gets involved.

You have been more patient than I could ever be, you’ve done couple counselling and I gather he’s belittling your efforts and saying that it was useless.
Hopefully you can get out really soon. Once the police got involved it became clearer to my ex that I wasn’t going to keep his behaviour a secret.
I triggered his abandonment anxiety by getting all services involved, again not advisable but his documented dysregulation witnessed by the police helped my case as I got full custody and he only has visitation.
I don’t know how it works where you live but you may have to record his behaviour and make the police aware in advance of leaving in case he rages.
Now that he is accusing you falsely, if I were in your position, I would make the police aware of what happened before he gets to them.

[Gerda]

What you do have to decide is where you and your daughter will go on a moment's notice.  You can't stay in the abuse because you might be late for work tomorrow or because your kid will be upset.  These are very minor things compared to escaping his abuse.  Now is the time to focus on you and your daughter.

Because here's the thing- every time he makes accusations and you do nothing, he becomes empowered.  If you say you're leaving and don't leave, then he's enabled to become even more nasty, more vengeful the next time. 

Many of us here are worried about this escalating and we want you & your kid to be safe.  I know you love him and hope things will improve, but that's almost impossible without you standing up to him and being ready to roll with the consequences.  That's the only way he learns that his abuse is not okay.

I'm praying for you!

I know. For that particular incident it was also hard because he had woken me up at 3 am, after I had just finally fallen back asleep after him waking me up at 11 pm, and it was hard for me to think clearly in that state. The combination of his abuse and parenting a young child (who sometimes has normal young child things happen in the middle of the night like a nosebleed or bed wetting that I have to deal with) makes me sleep deprived and unable to think clearly a lot of the time.

And now, just this afternoon, I got a message from her preschool teacher that she's been behaving very badly at school again this week. I can't help but think this is related, though the last fight was April 30, so about a week and a half ago, so I'm not sure. It's upsetting because at our parent-teacher conference on April 26, he teacher said she had improved a lot.

[ForeverDad]

Remember too, this is not just about you, there a preschooler involved.  If you leave, then don't let the child get left behind.

Yes, he could fuss and fume but typically nothing has to happen until family court steps in when issuing a temp order.  Perhaps some video calls, but young kids have short attention spans and usually are not interested in them as much or as long as the parent is.

The initial separation time is a bit of a no man's land for parenting.  Without an order in hand from the court, possession more or less is 9/10 of the law.  During that time police are reluctant to get involved with disputes unless the parent has a court order in hand.

[Gerda]

Remember too, this is not just about you, there a preschooler involved.  If you leave, then don't let the child get left behind.
...

The initial separation time is a bit of a no man's land for parenting.  Without an order in hand from the court, possession more or less is 9/10 of the law.  During that time police are reluctant to get involved with disputes unless the parent has a court order in hand.

Yes, this sounds a lot like what the lawyer I talked to told me. She emphasized that I need to have my daughter "in [my] possession" when I leave," and that if my husband calls the cops, they probably won't do anything.

It sounds like what I'll have to do is get an apartment (or some other decent place to stay like a hotel or friend's house), and then take her (and my cats) there while husband is at work. He'll come home to find us gone and a note left for him, freak out, maybe call the cops, but the cops at most will do a "welfare check" on me but otherwise stay out of it.

She said that it can take a month or two for court orders to go through. I hope it won't take him more than that long to calm down.

[livednlearned]

I did what you describe. Except I was permitted to not disclose where I lived. The caveat was that I was told by my L to put our son on the phone (9 at the time) the evening I left and to send a message when I left that S9 was safe.

Your ex may call it kidnapping but it isn't.

Kidnapping is what happens when courts are involved, and I believe only once custody has been determined.

My ex was rightfully shocked and I know it hurt him deeply. He was also not a safe person to be around and there are consequences for unchecked behaviors, like moving you and your child somewhere safe.

He also rotated through every response imaginable. Agreeable and persuasive. Furious and retaliatory. Sly and manipulative. He pleaded and threatened in the same sentence. He accepted that he hadn't been "easy to live with" the same day he called me the c word.

It's a good idea to have a plan for what you'll do those first 24 hours and the week after.

Depending on how disordered he gets, that week can be a real roller coaster. Especially if there are substances involved.