Conflicted about staying.

[KayakerDude]

This is my first post in this discussion group, previously I posted in the ‘bettering’ one.

My uBPD wife and I have been together for nearly 13 years and over the last 9 months things have gotten so much worse. The verbal abuse, the emotional blackmailing, etc.
We started marriage counseling about 6 months ago and all that did was give her a new way to abuse me. So much that I was to a poitn I didn’t want to go. And I honestly trust and respect the counselor, and their methods but my wife just won’t get along.

After 5 months of that it became clear to all of us that this wasn’t just a ‘marriage’ issue but something wrong with my wife. So based on her therapist’s suggestion she enrolled in a mood and anxiety disorder IOP (Intensive Outpatient Therapy) a month ago. They seemt ot hink she has PTSD, not BPD, although BPD has been discussed at some points apparently. For me I can run down the DSM5 diagnostic criteria and would check EVERY box of BPD. And not nearly enough for a diagnosis of PTSD.
So while there has been some reduction in the raging, she still treats me terribly most days. And after a month that hasn’t changed at all.

Yesterday she accused me of financial abuse (because I am now the sole wage earner, and after she had gotten an apartment and moved out I had put all our house bills in my name and I take care of all of them. But because I don’t give her complete access to my account she accuses me of abuse.) As well as picking a fight while out to breakfast about some other made up nonsense.

Where I am today is that I honestly don’t know if I can keep doing this. For 12 years I have met her rages and abuse with calmness and gentleness and didn’t reacte much. But lately I am finding myself feeling like I am falling into her crazy world of lies and manipulations. I am a very emtionally stable person but lately that hasn’t been so true.

My thoughts have changed since when my best friend and I were out mountain biking a couple weeks ago and he looked me in the eyes and said: “You know you deserve to be loved too right?”
And a few weeks before at my last marriage counseling session the therapist said the same thing to me, and then my counselor said the same to me in last weeks session. Each time it nearly breaks me. Each time I realize I cannot let myself believe that. Like if I do then it will kill me when that doesn’t happen with my wife.

So how do I know that I’ve reached the end? I know no one but me can truly answer that, but right now I just don’t know. I realize I don’t believe, at least not in my heart that I do deserve to be honestly and completely loved and that’s something due to years of abuse from my uBPD wife.

Thanks.

[ForeverDad]

It is said that typically the first stage of Grieving a Loss is Acceptance.

Accept that you cannot repair her.  Even if she tries - to some extent - she may not be able or willing to sufficiently improve.  Accept that too.

Accept too that you're harming yourself by continuing along this path of abuse, halfway in and halfway out.

Fortunately you don't have children together and the kids are grown, so no concerns about court ordered custody or parenting schedules.

My main issue with MC is that we keep circling the same, solved issues. She does''t seem to know how to let go and move on. And I am learning the perhaps that is all she can ever do. I guess I am trying to figure out how much effort I want to expend on her at this point.

My ex too could not Let Go and Move On.  Even if I apologized, whether deserved or not, she would still circle back to them later on, especially the old triggers.  So I was the one who finally had no other choice but to Let Go and Move On.

I do have one consolation, if you live in the USA.  Since your marriage has lasted at least 10 years, when she reaches retirement age she has the option to have any previous 10+ year marriages reviewed and she can claim whichever husband's work history allows her the maximum amount of Social Security.

[Pook075]

To echo what Forever said, dealing with an emotionally abusive spouse challenges us mentally and makes it very hard to understand what's true and what's manipulation.  It causes mental health problems that take time to heal from.

While "mental health" is still a taboo subject in the US, it's a part of all of us.  When someone close to us dies, we grieve deeply and it can lead to depression.  A healthy mind self-corrects over time and works past it, while people like your wife can't seem to find that path.  The sad things just build up over time until it becomes too much, and we end up in situations where you're at right now.

Mentally, you're not okay...and it's okay to not be okay sometimes.  Give yourself some grace and take time to work past this in your own way.  Get outside, get back into familiar hobbies or discover new ones, and spend time with other family/friends to do "normal" things.  Also consider a personal therapist to help you work through this in a healthy way...there's no shame in that at all.

Also, please continue to post here and talk through your problems and feelings- it genuinely helps being around others that have walked this path and came out of it.  Two years ago when my marriage imploded (very similar to yours), I was obliterated inside and didn't know how I'd ever make it through it.  Today, I'm living a completely different life and I've found peace with everything that happened. 

I've been able to actually let go though and accept that this wasn't my fault.  I've also learned that any form of abuse is not okay, it wasn't my job to blindly accept it because I was married.

I'll pray for you and your wife; I hope both of you can find peace.

[KayakerDude]

To echo what Forever said, dealing with an emotionally abusive spouse challenges us mentally and makes it very hard to understand what's true and what's manipulation.  It causes mental health problems that take time to heal from.

While "mental health" is still a taboo subject in the US, it's a part of all of us.  When someone close to us dies, we grieve deeply and it can lead to depression.  A healthy mind self-corrects over time and works past it, while people like your wife can't seem to find that path.  The sad things just build up over time until it becomes too much, and we end up in situations where you're at right now.

Mentally, you're not okay...and it's okay to not be okay sometimes.  Give yourself some grace and take time to work past this in your own way.  Get outside, get back into familiar hobbies or discover new ones, and spend time with other family/friends to do "normal" things.  Also consider a personal therapist to help you work through this in a healthy way...there's no shame in that at all.

Also, please continue to post here and talk through your problems and feelings- it genuinely helps being around others that have walked this path and came out of it.  Two years ago when my marriage imploded (very similar to yours), I was obliterated inside and didn't know how I'd ever make it through it.  Today, I'm living a completely different life and I've found peace with everything that happened. 

I've been able to actually let go though and accept that this wasn't my fault.  I've also learned that any form of abuse is not okay, it wasn't my job to blindly accept it because I was married.

I'll pray for you and your wife; I hope both of you can find peace.

I think that's part of what has happened to me over these long years. I went from not knowing what was wrong with her, and yet choosing to say things like: "no matter what you say to me I won't be cruel back" and "I will continue being kind to you no matter your actions" to now not being able to hardly hold back my emotions. It's been a long slow breaking of my mental health and I am now not so healthy.
And a large part of that is the warping of reality around me. I can 'know' something isn't my fault, but after so many years it starts eating at me. Like rot in building, it can be fine right up until the beams start failing.

Today she sent me a text after asking me how I was and I replied: 'meh' that she "I hope we get to a place where we can reasonably discuss this."
Which sounds great, but experience has taught me that it cannot happen. Not with her not right now at least.
And as you noted, I am not so okay right now.

I need to begin putting MY boundaries in place and taking the steps for my mental health. No letting her sit in the drivers seat anymore.

 

It is said that typically the first stage of Grieving a Loss is Acceptance.

Accept that you cannot repair her.  Even if she tries - to some extent - she may not be able or willing to sufficiently improve.  Accept that too.

Accept too that you're harming yourself by continuing along this path of abuse, halfway in and halfway out.

Fortunately you don't have children together and the kids are grown, so no concerns about court ordered custody or parenting schedules.

My ex too could not Let Go and Move On.  Even if I apologized, whether deserved or not, she would still circle back to them later on, especially the old triggers.  So I was the one who finally had no other choice but to Let Go and Move On.

How did you know? Was there a moment it all became clear? Or did it creep up on you?
I feel so conflicted as I see this occasionally loving face and person whom I love, but then later I feel like I cannot possibly put up with her anymore.

[KayakerDude]

And ForeverDad & Pook075 thank you both for the encouragement and kindness.

[Sluggo]

How did you know? Was there a moment it all became clear? Or did it creep up on you?

For me it was a death of 1000 cuts but the event was when  my bpdwife 'would not let me' go through my recently deceased dad belongings'...she had to go through it first.  Prior to his death, I 'agreed' only to visit him with her.  He was in hospice living 10 min away... And we only visited 1 time before his passing.  I was totally brainwashed....  But that event snapped me into reality.  It was after 16 years of marriage. 

8 years later...Im so much better.  However still have a lot of residue and shadows from the long term abuse. 

Sluggo

[Sluggo]

quote]How did you know? Was there a moment it all became clear? Or did it creep up on you?[/quote]

For me it was a death of 1000 cuts but the event was when  my bpdwife 'would not let me' go through my recently deceased dad belongings'...she had to go through it first.  Prior to his death, I 'agreed' only to visit him with her.  He was in hospice living 10 min away... And we only visited 1 time before his passing.  I was totally brainwashed....  But that event snapped me into reality.  It was after 16 years of marriage. 

8 years later...Im so much better.  However still have a lot of residue and shadows from the long term abuse. 

Sluggo

[ForeverDad]

I could sense the End was looming.  The last couple years together there were a few times she was so upset she said she'd divorce me.  One incident was when we were going to the most important religious event of the year.  She was raging that I'd make her late to arrive.  We arrived 10 minutes early, she grabbed our kid, said she would divorce me and walked inside.  As it turned out, the event was a little bit delayed anyway.

The pediatrician said he could give referrals to counselors but she replied she had the Bible.  I later attempted marital counseling but she refused.  The rages were increasing and one afternoon, a Sunday of course, my life was threatened.  I called the police.  Um, that ended it, how dare I expose our private disputes.

If the marriage has failed, it is best you, as the reasonably normal spouse, use practical time-tested strategies to unwind the marriage in the least damaging way.  You don't want the disordered spouse to bring chaos to the process.

[KayakerDude]

Here I was feeling like maybe there was some hope these last few days but tonight is proving me wrong.

She got mad I got my hair cut, mad about me not joining her in an argument and now is saying things like 'we're broken'.
And she's using her IOP group to accuse me of abusing her. And as she is a master manipulator, (or she believes it, I honestly think that's nearer the truth) I don't doubt they believe her. Especially as she has her counsellor convinced it's not BPD but PTSD. And now the claim is part of it is from me.

And in another of the classic BPD moments she said tonight:"We both abuse each other equally!"

Maybe I needed tonight to help me see the truth. I so, so, so want her to get better, but as she isn't even on the right path that's me believing in magic, not reality.
She said also tonight: "You wouldn't treat your friend like you treat me!"
And I realised that she flat out wouldn't be my friend if we weren't married. And the sorrow of realizing that I've been married to this person for this long is a lot.

[KayakerDude]

I could sense the End was looming.  The last couple years together there were a few times she was so upset she said she'd divorce me

That's been my reality on a bi-weekly basis for 12 years. Always threatening to divorce me, always saying she hates me.
.

[ForeverDad]

I too was surprised how aggressive and outspoken a "victim" my ex was.  Aren't people posing as victims supposed to be fearful, intimidated, overwhelmed and controlled?

In the final months before my marriage I wanted some proof of the chaos and conflict since it was always in private scenarios such as at home behind closed doors or while driving in vehicles.  Those were the days before smart phones, so I bought a few digital voice recorders since I could never count on which ones had capacity remaining or charged batteries.  I did it quietly, not waving them around since I didn't want to create or worsen incidents.  Yet I felt I needed some insurance to document I wasn't the one aggressive, threatening or abusive.  If someone happened to be captured in the recording while aggressive, threatening or abusive, well, it sure wasn't me.  I still had a hard time sleeping at night but it helped.

[livednlearned]

What is the IOP group about?

Bill Eddy (author of Splitting and other books often recommended here) considers BPD in terms of severity:

* generally cooperative, not dangerous
* not cooperative, not dangerous
* not cooperative, dangerous

By dangerous, he means someone who engages in substance abuse, makes false allegations of domestic violence, child molestation/abuse; someone who engages in DV or suicidal ideation.

Do you feel comfortable discussing what shifted you to move from Bettering to Conflicted?

Are you concerned about the IOP group making things worse?

[KayakerDude]

What is the IOP group about?

Bill Eddy (author of Splitting and other books often recommended here) considers BPD in terms of severity:

* generally cooperative, not dangerous
* not cooperative, not dangerous
* not cooperative, dangerous

By dangerous, he means someone who engages in substance abuse, makes false allegations of domestic violence, child molestation/abuse; someone who engages in DV or suicidal ideation.

Do you feel comfortable discussing what shifted you to move from Bettering to Conflicted?

Are you concerned about the IOP group making things worse?

The IOP group is for 'mood and anxiety' disorders. The claim is my W has PTSD from childhood. But she doesn't meet more than maybe one of the diagnostic criteria.
Already she has used the group to claim I'm abusive to her. Used the group to claim it wasn't really her fault when she smashed through a window with her bare fists.

I really thought there was a chance it could make some (small) improvement. But so far that has not been true, it seems she is using it to make me into her persecutor. And I just cannot fulfill that role for her anymore. Never did abuse her, but I took a lot of blame. But I just cannot seem to handle that anymore.

So originally not worried about it, but now I feel like she is using it to make my life worse. Often by claiming to be so much better and yet in the moment doing the same BPD behaviors. The claim is that she's treating me better, and I believe reporting this back to her IOP group and yet nothing has changed other than her being more educated on how to frame me as the problem.


As for moving here from the 'bettering' group. I think it was finally having to call the police on her. After far too many times where I should have, but didn't.
And probably finally getting my own counselor is helping me see that I also deserve love.

And to reply to the levels of BPD behavior, I would say not cooperative, and often dangerous to me.
Maybe that's why I am on this board not the 'bettering' one.

I am trying to ponder my life and if I want to file for divorce next week. I cannot fathom how she can be better enough for me to be happy. And now that I am finally stopping my magical thinking and pushing my emotions down and denying the reality I live in I can't help but feel like I could be happy if I just get away from her.

[Pook075]

Already she has used the group to claim I'm abusive to her. Used the group to claim it wasn't really her fault when she smashed through a window with her bare fists.

I really thought there was a chance it could make some (small) improvement. But so far that has not been true, it seems she is using it to make me into her persecutor.

This is pretty normal because in therapy, they're not going to say, "You're wrong and need to change immediately."  Because if they did, then nobody would be there more than 5 minutes.  So they have to build trust and common ground where they're able to talk out their issues.

EVERYONE in those groups says that it's everyone else's fault.  That's so common with BPD/NPD since one of the greatest challenges is taking personal responsibility.  My BPD daughter used to rant about me and say I was the devil for 10+ years. 

I've been in countless private meetings and they'd say, "She has a lot of resentment towards you."  And I'd say, "That's because I'm the tough parent that doesn't give in when it comes to right and wrong."  And they'd say, "That's good, keep challenging her."  Never once did they try to validate the angle of me being a horrible, abusive parent.

When my BPD ex wife and I split up, the exact same thing happened.  We hadn't argued for years, and suddenly she told everyone how horrible and abusive I was.  Yet when they asked for examples, she couldn't give any...nothing came to mind in the moment, she'd say.

The goal of therapy is to help them see these "abusive" things in a different light where everyone could have handled something better.  And that can sometimes take awhile to get to that point.

My wife refused therapy when she was diagnosed (we broke up around the same time 2 years ago), and we didn't talk for months because it was too traumatic for her.  She said a few months ago that she's happy we finally got to a place where we could communicate again and I thought....literally nothing has changed and I treat her exactly the same way. 

That's also happened with my BPD daughter.  BPD's have to have that realization on their own though, nobody can tell them that.  So don't give up on therapy quite yet, it may just be taking some time to get to the realizations.

[ForeverDad]

Her life can be said to have many facets, you can read all sorts of comments on how we are impacted by them.  Much of it is based on her perceptions of herself and others, especially those closest to her, rather than reality or meaningful relationships.  Too, she has a range of actions, reactions and overreactions.

Do not forewarn her that you are contemplating divorce or even initial separation.  She's likely to overreact and 'attack' you before you can 'attack' her.  Okay, a more passive statement would be that she's likely to abandon you (vehemently) before you can abandon her.

Also, when time comes to serve her, you may let a process server do it if you're concerned for your safety or how she might overreact.  In any case, do have family or trusted friends nearby in case things go from bad to worse.  Good idea, give your local police a heads up when the news is about to happen and ask for their input on things.

What you don't want is an incident where police are called, you are blamed and you get carted off.  Police try not to take sides, referring solutions to the domestic court system, but if she's making allegations, they'll likely default to accepting the woman as the victim.  They may only separate the two of you, or cart you the man away.

(My divorce lawyer was surprised that my police didn't cart me away when they responded to my call.  That's their protocol, separate the couple to defuse the dispute, and the man gets default removal.  I explained that my preschooler was quietly sobbing in my arms and shrieked when I followed instructions and tried unsuccessfully to hand him to his mother.  What kid would refuse to go to his mother?  A kid who felt safer in his father's arms.)

[CrazytownSA]

I'm reminded and validated about so many things. They bring up the exact same "mistakes" over and over and over. One of mine was mentioning maybe getting an RV to travel with my parents who RV frequently. That immediately turned into how could I possibly mention that, and didn't I know how much work that would require him to do ...etc etc etc. He brings it back up with all of his other favorites almost every argument and then tells me it was my fault because I'm so inconsiderate to his needs.  What??  I'm not allowed to even have ideas. I'm told his rages are my fault because it's my responsibility to de-escalate things when he's getting mad. I've always said no, you are responsible for yourself. He has this trait like Sheldon where he will repeat things 3 times. It drives me crazy. Mockingly he will say NO NO NO. Or Listen to me listen to me listen to me. Makes me want to scream.

[KayakerDude]

So this weekend we were supposed to go camping with a woman from my wife's IOP group and her husband and some of their friends. I have never met this person, nor her husband but my wife really wanted to go so I agreed. As my wife said, 'we always enjoy camping and they might be a bunch of fun people.'
So I agreed.

We worked on packing up little bits on Thursday, planning meals etc. I was even looking forward to it as it turns out there are a lot of mountain biking trails at the place we'll be staying. And my wife was herself looking forward to it and riding together as it's been a while since she has.
Although she did yell at me that evening while out in our yard, at a level that any neighbors could hear. So that sucked.

But then Friday came and I was home first (from work) and then she finished her IOP for the day and had to stop by the store. That was my first warning things might be wrong. She made some snippy little remark about how I should have gotten the groceries but I chose to just ignore it and continue packing the car. Then as she was driving she apparently was looking at our bank records and then sent me a text about a transaction of mine (literally paying shared bills) and went off the rails. Got home and just wanted to fight.
She will ask a question of me, answer it herself (with often the wildest accusations and assumptions) then refuse to hear anything I would say.
I was in a good mood, didn't want to let her ruin that so I chose to calmly let her know that if she kept this type of behavior up we would have to cancel camping. She chose to calm down for about 45 minutes, so I got the car almost completely packed by this point.
Then she comes to me again screaming and insulting me, devaluing me, splitting me and making all kinds of wild accusations. I said I wouldn't be accepting that kind of behavior from her and and went to take a nice relaxing shower.
I sent her a calm text saying again that we could still go camping, but only if she calmed herself and stopped verbally attacking me. Which felt like a reasonable request . . .

She wouldn't stop when I got out of the shower so I calmly told her I at least wouldn't be going camping, but would help her go by herself as this was her thing all along. Of course she didn't want that.

So I calmly told her I was going to leave the house for a bit, go have a beer down the street at our local taproom and decompress and laugh with acquaintances/friends.
My wife was mad about this and said things about me being a drunkard (which due to my having Crohn's disease I always have drank very mildly, like 2 drinks is my normal limit and me having three is noted as unusual at my local, ). I chose not to engage with this and had a lovely walk (it's about 7 minutes of a walk from my front door) listening to SWOE.

When I got there I stepped up to the bar to get my beer and a mountain bike friends girlfriend was there next to me and told me she now knew where I lived, but only because she heard my wife yelling at me in the yard and saying 'awful things to you, but I never heard your voice at all.'
The friend was embarrassed immediately that she had told me that and worried I would be upset or embarrassed. I replied that I was actually glad she had shard that with me, and that although it was a slightly weird moment to learn what house was mine it was alright because it was literally happening so loud she heard it from the sidewalk walking with her kid and recognized my wife's voice and then heard her shout my name.

It was a good reminder that these aren't my opinions, or just some storyline I've cooked up in my head. It was huge validation that what I experience from my wife is crazy bad.
This friend encouraged me that even though she doesn't know my wife much, I shouldn't be treated like that and to please look out for my safety.
All in all it felt difficult but kind of life giving.

And as I had said I was going to try and make a plan for my life over this weekend.

Well . . .
As I sat and had my 2 beers over a couple hours I got text after text from my wife and they were all emotionally abusive and cruel. And then she texted that she was moving into the other bedroom and that seemed like my plan was laying itself out right in front of my eyes.
When I got home I offered to cook us both dinner, and my wife was calmer (relatively speaking, not actual calm) and she reiterated she would be moving into the other room 'because you are so abusive'.
And then I told her fine, I want a divorce. I want her to move out and I choose not to live like this anymore. She took that fairly well, of course with huge amounts of sobbing and accusations at me, and lots and lots of anger. Luckily she did not get violent and I knew I had taken a huge risk by telling her. But it seems to have worked out. She is planning on moving out within a month or so when she goes back to work (earlier this week her treatment was extended to the end of this month, now that is extended to the end of June. So at least I can look forward to peace in my home eventually. Not really soon enough, but soon.

Today I got up, went about my normal weekend routine (which until this weekend has been a shared routine) and took myself our usual breakfast place. Went a rode my bike with a friend, and took a nice long walk around the harbor I live near.
It was nice, and yet each time I stopped home my wife would sob at me, tell me she cannot live without me, cannot see why I 'blame her for everything' and how 'we both abuse each other! It's not just me, you abuse me!' and 'you've always hated me!' and 'why are you abandoning me?'
So far I've been kind, calm and not letting myself get worked up. I reply that I have never nor do I hate her. That I am making this choice because I cannot handle the abuse towards me anymore, and that it is important for me to be able to feel safe in my own home.

She sent me a couple of BPD skewed texts about how she wants to treat me well but how it was equally my fault, how I've abused her and finally with a very heartfelt text saying this:

I am deeply sorry for my actions that caused you emotional and physical pain. I understand that my behavior was unacceptable and hurtful, and I take full responsibility for my mistakes. I should have been more mindful, understanding, and supportive. Instead, I caused harm and hurt the person I love and cherish the most.
Please know that I am committed to learning from my mistakes, seeking help when needed, and working to rebuild the trust and connection we share. Or at this moment even if we divorce. 
I promise to prioritize your well-being, listen to your feelings, and be more empathetic and compassionate. I would love the same.
Your happiness and safety mean the world to me, and I will strive to be a better partner to you moving forward.  If you allow us.
If there is anything specific I can do to make amends, please don't hesitate to share.
I love you and am dedicated to healing and growth together ideally.
With love, regret, and commitment to improvement,

It doesn't shake my resolve and I spoke with her about that this afternoon. I told her I want so deeply to believe that, but that I have learned that I shouldn't. That this is part of her cycle of valuation and devaluation and although I might be willing to not file for divorce immediately, she still must move out.
That of course got drama, accusations but ultimately she ended up posting to social media that she is looking for places to stay.

Tonight she made plans with a couple other ladies and so I have the house to myself and it's so peaceful.

And to CrazytownSA, hang in there, you aren't crazy. It is so impossibly hard to keep track of reality when these people in our lives that we love try and force their delusions and false world onto us.
You aren't anymore crazy than I am. And like me, you also deserve love, not hate.

[Pook075]

I'm really sorry Kayaker, but like you said...you were hoping for clarity this weekend and you got exactly what you were hoping for (although in the most rage-filled way possible).

Separating doesn't mean divorce and your wife already had a major wakeup call.  Is it enough?  Time will tell and I think you did things perfectly by sticking to her moving out.  Just that one step makes it so much easier to shut down the abuse.  It stinks you'll have to wait a bit for that to happen but even still, all good steps.