keep getting drawn back

[usagi]

Hello forum,

So last post was about a blow up.  They've happened before.  So, so many times.  This time somehow felt different since I was the one the lit the fuse.

As also often happens, after the blow up we start talking and eventually want to be together again.  This is definitely different this time.  I am moving out.  This is something that I talked about before but now is going to happen.  My partner is already in her new apartment and I'm very close to being ready to move someplace.  I should be able to get something before the end of the week.

I told my therapist the day of the breakup.  She quite rightly reminded me how many times we've been through this.  She encouraged me to think about the past times and how when the break up occurred how convincing I was about why it was necessary and that it would stick, then days later why it would actually work.

We had tickets to a concert last night.  Even though we "broke up" I invited her to go on the condition that we don't talk about the relationship.  On the way to the concert she started holding my hand.  Light snuggling ensued throughout the concert.  During the show I said again that I was sorry that I yelled at her about how I was feeling.  We started talking about what happened.  She reminded me that she's been playing with her medication and that has definitely been impacting her emotions.  She's also going through a lot of stress.  Her ex just got diagnosed with colon cancer.  At this point we don't know how advanced it is.  Weeks earlier his partner was also diagnosed with stage 3 colon cancer and is currently undergoing chemo.  My partner got into a big blow up with her 12yr old a couple of weekends ago.

What really got me was that she didn't accept my apology and kept saying that I had broken my promise to come straight home.  I had been fretting all day that she had threatened that I would need to move out.  All that together just lead to me exploding.

She's since offered to go to couples counseling, although I am not sure it was an honest offer.

I kind of feel like I'm just walking right back into the same situation.  At least I'll have my own place for a year.  My hope is that it will help give me some sticking power on holding my boundaries.

Boundaries:
1. Can not request I out and out quit my hobby
2. Can not take repeated threats to end the relationship whenever she feels threatened

I did feel awkward last night when she started touching my hand.  But at the same time I wanted it.  I feel like I've got a lot of mixed emotions.  I really hope she's honestly interested in therapy of some flavor but worried it'll just lead to more problems.  I made pretty clear what our cycle was recently.  I do something that triggers her (we call them land mines).  I see the incident from a different prospective and try to counter.  She gets scared and threatens to break up/ask me to leave.  We've been through this so many times.  She said that I have the power to end the cycle but I don't think that's fair.  I think I really need to see her try to do more about that urge to run.  I get that with BPD that's an incredible ask but this has been too much for me to handle lately.  We've been talking about this move for some time and all throughout the process she's been worried that we'll break up.

I feel like I can be empathetic and supportive when she doesn't threaten leaving.  That's too much for me to handle over and over again.

I'd love some advice from the board on getting back in the saddle.  Every time I do this I feel like I'm just setting myself up for another fall.  It really seems like this has been every three months or so.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hey... so sorry you're going through this again. It sounds exhausting, for sure.

One quick thought (work is crazy right now, so it might be brief) on something that stood out to me here:

I kind of feel like I'm just walking right back into the same situation.  At least I'll have my own place for a year.  My hope is that it will help give me some sticking power on holding my boundaries.

Boundaries:
1. Can not request I out and out quit my hobby
2. Can not take repeated threats to end the relationship whenever she feels threatened

Boundaries aren't rules we put on other people -- they're rules we have for ourselves, that are 100% under our own control.

Just to be really clear -- you cannot control if she requests that you quit your hobby, and you cannot control if she threatens to end the relationship.

If I were digging in to do some work here, I might focus on rewriting those "boundaries" (which currently read as requests or preferences) into True Boundaries, which you control no matter what the other person is or isn't doing or saying.

I will say it's fine to have requests or preferences in a relationship -- we all do. But they aren't boundaries.

And, in a certain sense, if we have true boundaries, nobody else can break them... only we can break our own boundaries (our own rules for our lives), if they're genuine boundaries.

...

So, I wonder how those preferences might look, if you rewrote/restructured them to be rules that you control? Maybe something about "When I hear __________, I will do ___________". Or, "I choose to stay in relationships/interactions that are ___________________. If ___________ happens in a relationship/interaction, then I will ______________".

Will be interested to hear your take on this.

[usagi]

Thanks as always Kells,

I think they'd look something like this:


1. I won't quite my hobby to satisfy the short term emotional ups/downs of my partner.
2. When my partner threatens to break off the relationship or to kick me out of the house/apartment
     I will not discuss problems she has with my behavior.

??

[kells76]

I think they'd look something like this:

1. I won't quite my hobby to satisfy the short term emotional ups/downs of my partner.
2. When my partner threatens to break off the relationship or to kick me out of the house/apartment
     I will not discuss problems she has with my behavior.

That sounds much more under your control 

Maybe we can even fill out #1 some more:

"I am the only one who chooses how much I participate in my hobby. I might choose to continue, or I might choose to quit. I am a choicemaker and I take responsibility for my choices. People can tell me their opinions, and I decide if I take them into account.
When others tell me how much time to spend on my hobby, I will ______ [say "thanks for the feedback"; take a break from the conversation; say "I don't have plans to quit"; not engage with that statement; change the subject; say "I plan to talk about it at my next therapy session; you're welcome to come if you want".... etc]"

Something to give that "rule for yourself" some more dimension, so it's integrated into your life and your sense of being a responsible self.

Obviously, the above isn't something to explain to your partner (not verbatim). It's more some ideas for how you personally can continue to get clarity about your own values and beliefs, and feel strong and secure in your values and beliefs.

I keep going back to the first post in this thread on Boundaries and Values:

Upholding our values and independence
 
Values.   A healthy relationship is sometimes described as an “inter-dependent” relationship of two “independent” people. Regardless of the type of relationship, we all come to it with values that we intend to honor and defend regardless of the nature of the relationship - these are known as core values or independent values - this is what defines us.  
 
We also have values that we are prepared to mold and adapt as we blend with the other person in the relationship - these become inter-dependent values - this is how we grow together.
 
Having a healthy relationship takes a great deal of self awareness and knowing:
 

• which values are independent, core values to be upheld by us and defended (in a constructive way, of course), and

• which values are more open for compromise or replacement based on our blending with and building a relationship with another person (partner, friend, relative).

Independent core values    Identify and live your personal values!  Independent core values determine our decisions and guide our lives. It's important that we stay true to them- they should be clearly reflected in the life choices we make.  Those who value their individuality take responsibility, are self-reliant and act with self-respect. Those who value truthfulness cannot bring themselves to tell a lie. Those who value family or friendship sacrifice their personal interests for the good of others. Those who value goodness cannot bring themselves to do something they know is wrong. We express values in our relations with other people when we are loyal, reliable, honest, generous, trusting, trustworthy, feel a sense of responsibility for family, friends, co-workers, our organization, community or country.
 
Be realistic    Being realistic about values is important. If we have an unusually large number of uncompromisable independent values / core values, we may be too dogmatic to have a relationship with very many people. At the same time, if we have so few independent values, or such a weak commitment to them, we will then be "undefined" to ourselves and to others. When that happens, the only values that matter are those of others. The latter is common in codependent or enmeshed relationships.

We get to decide on our personal values for ourselves. We may have values around something that not many others do. We get to decide how rigidly or how flexibly we hold those values and commitments. I guess all that is to say -- it's fair to have a strong personal value about your hobby. It isn't something being "done to you", it's a choice you're making, and ideally, you'd be with someone who could compromise in that area (and who might have strong values in other areas, that you would compromise in). Accepting the outcome of having a strong personal value can be difficult. We pay a price to have strong values.

Like the example shared, when many of our values are uncompromisable, the price we pay can be isolation. And when we have few or no strong core values, we're kind of a blob of nothing. The grey area in the middle can be difficult; how do we decide where to hold strong and where to compromise. It is not easy.

I definitely had some values/beliefs/ideas about my H's kids and their interests/values/identities where I've had to compromise in ways I did not think I ever would, for the sake of maintaining connection and relationship. Fortunately, they have not demanded "if you don't do it like XYZ, I won't talk to you again/interact with you again", so I think they have sort of compromised, too -- they aren't happy with how I navigate certain situations, but they don't incessantly focus on "do it like this or I'll never spend time with you".

If it got to a point where they were saying something extreme, like "renounce your spiritual belief that is different from mine, or I'll never talk to you again"... that would be hitting a strong core value for me, and I would hate to be in that position.

All that to say -- You're a choicemaker, you are responsible for your choices, and values compromises (where to bend, where to hold firm) are not easy. Processing the fact that you may have loss and pay a price for your values -- that can help, in a weird way.

...

If I'm tracking with #2 correctly, you're saying: "When my partner threatens to break up with me, and brings up problems she has with my behavior, I will choose not to continue that discussion or engage with her statements". Is that close?

What could you do or say if/when she threatens to break up and brings up a problem about you?

I'm thinking along the lines of -- not rewarding that with attention/engagement, not engaging with the content, saying you're headed to the store and will be back in an hour, stuff like that?

I'm assuming she's heated/escalating when she says stuff like that?

[once removed]

a whole lot of "bettering" is about starting with cleaning up our side of the street. ideally, our partners follow our lead. or, doing so gets the relationship to "good enough". or even, sometimes we change, and it kills the relationship.

you have come a really long way in terms of getting a good handle on your side of the street. youve practiced the tools. youve worked to better understand where shes coming from, which can be inherently challenging. you seem to cope with the stresses better.

She quite rightly reminded me how many times we've been through this.  She encouraged me to think about the past times and how when the break up occurred how convincing I was about why it was necessary and that it would stick, then days later why it would actually work.
...
Every time I do this I feel like I'm just setting myself up for another fall.  It really seems like this has been every three months or so.

all of those things are invaluable. unfortunately, none of it can either make the relationship "work", nor can it resolve her issues - her personal ones, or her issues with the relationship.

youre right, and your therapist is right: the issues still remain, and theyre killing the relationship. i think thats why your therapist is encouraging you to, rather than jump back into the same cycle, think it through.

im not suggesting that you terminate the relationship. im not even hinting at it.

i am suggesting that you could keep repeating this cycle for a very long time, with the relationship becoming more and more broken in the process, and ending far down the road, in a lot of heartache.

or, more ideally, something could change. but the question is what, and how, and whether or not its realistic.

the relationship is always going to have some issues, of course. all relationships do, and certainly a relationship with someone with bpd has unique ones. breakup threats are deeply damaging, long and short term. theyve persisted - theyve come from both sides, granted more from her more recently. ideally, its something the two of you can come together on, and nip in the bud. thats an objective worth pursuing, and its a fair hill to die on, if youre prepared to. its also one you have to model.

I did feel awkward last night when she started touching my hand.  But at the same time I wanted it. I feel like I've got a lot of mixed emotions.

it sounds like the relationship is in "too bad to stay, too good to leave" territory, and thats where things get tricky. the relationship may even be good 90% of the time, and yet, there are these sticking points. and even if they only happen every three months, it is ultimately driving a wedge. trust and security are deteriorating.

i think its important that this not be a relationship that persists because of either or both of your fear of it ending. that is the common denominator in so many stories here. because if its that, odds are things will get worse.

couples counseling/therapy could help with this. modeling it can help too, as can working together with relationship check ins. it can also be something thats just going to take more time and effort to improve. what has the dialogue been like when youve discussed the issue of breakup threats specifically? what does she say?

[usagi]

Thanks Kells.  I am learning but sometimes get a little turned around on definitions.  Also, when I wrote that I was feeling a little worked up over the situation.  I just wish that my partner would support the one thing that I do for myself outside of work.  I've made so many compromises over this and I feel like she keeps asking for more.

If I'm tracking with #2 correctly, you're saying: "When my partner threatens to break up with me, and brings up problems she has with my behavior, I will choose not to continue that discussion or engage with her statements". Is that close?

What could you do or say if/when she threatens to break up and brings up a problem about you?

I'm thinking along the lines of -- not rewarding that with attention/engagement, not engaging with the content, saying you're headed to the store and will be back in an hour, stuff like that?

I'm assuming she's heated/escalating when she says stuff like that?

Yes she's certainly heated when she's making threats to break up or demands that I move out.

Usually I just brush off these statements.  I know full well that she doesn't really mean them.  But this past March she demanded I move out and that the relationship was over because I was putting my work ahead of her needs.  I suppose I could have said "no I'm not moving out but I will sleep in a separate area..." or something like that.  I even met her at a restaurant the afternoon after she made the request and she held to her demand.  So when she made the threat this time it had a lot more weight.  Or at least it felt like it in the moment.  Later on that day I texted her and asked if she still felt the same way and didn't get a response, which drove me even farther into panic mode.  When we both got home that evening she didn't say a word and instead said that I should say something.  Later on I found out that she almost immediately decided she didn't want me to move out but never told me.

This feels like a real fear for me.  If she demands that I move out I don't think I can just ignore it.  I picture that if I did try to stand my ground she may threaten legal action or something.

I could say something that is validating like "you must be very upset because you are asking me to leave.  Is that what you really want?"

[usagi]

Thanks once removed

This cycle is really my biggest concern.  It is wholly driven by my desire to not give ground on something that's important to me and her abandonment/bpd related struggles.

It has become such a source of tension between us that any little disruption related to it can throw us immediately into this cycle.

I've tried to do what I can to keep this from being a topic of discussion.  I don't talk about it around her and we had agreed to a set schedule.  However even with those bumpers in place it still blew up.

it sounds like the relationship is in "too bad to stay, too good to leave" territory, and thats where things get tricky. the relationship may even be good 90% of the time, and yet, there are these sticking points. and even if they only happen every three months, it is ultimately driving a wedge. trust and security are deteriorating.

I'd have to say we both feel the same way.  We both run back to one another after a blow up and go through the same "we'll never do that again" dance.  But there's really no plan to avoid the cycle in the future and so you are right that with each successive cycle things deteriorate more and more.

couples counseling/therapy could help with this. modeling it can help too, as can working together with relationship check ins. it can also be something thats just going to take more time and effort to improve. what has the dialogue been like when youve discussed the issue of breakup threats specifically? what does she say?

I'm very hopeful that couples therapy will help.  My biggest fear is that once we start to dig into it and identify things that she could change she'll dig in her heels and say that this is all on me to change.