Still struggling with identifying the boundaries I want - why is this so hard??

[campbembpd]

Hi all, haven't been very active lately. Things have been coasting. Coasting in terms of the same cycle where every few weeks my uBPDw has a rage episode then cools off and everything goes back to normal for her.

There are 2 areas that are currently high in the areas of boundaries I'm going to establish. I'm just trying to figure out where because I want to make sure once I set a boundary I'm confident that's it's right so I don't back down or change my mind once the rage starts and the FOG sets in...

1. How to react and not react to general anger, emotional dysregulation and rage from my uBPDw. I've actually been working on a script...

"Say to her calmly with validation… I understand this is hard for you, I understand this may hurt your feelings. It’s no longer okay for you to call me names at all when we are in a disagreement. It’s no longer okay for voices being raised, speaking in angry tones, for blaming, making negative direct or passive aggressive / sarcastic comments. It hurts my feelings and it makes things uncomfortable, It’s not healthy for our relationship. I understand you’re upset in those moments but it’s not okay. If that happens I won’t be able to participate in those conversations, I’ll no longer talk, text or engage and I will have to return back to discuss the matter when things are calmer."
 
What I need to figure out is where the line in the sand is. Sometimes she isn't in full rage mode but it's clear she's started to bubble up (our term for when she starts to get dysregulated). She might be talking in a normal tone but there could be a snippy comment or passive aggressive remark. It's where the air changes and things could and likely will snowball soon. I just feel like I'm almost completely out of gas. And when she gets to even that point I want to just walk away and not engage her at all.

Here's what I need help with friends... because my internal barometer is so messed up. I don't want to talk to her when I know she's getting or is dysregulated at all. But there's guilt because does that mean I should never talk to my wife when she's in a bad mood? Does that seem fair in a marriage? But it eats me up as soon as she gets into a mood. She's ruining an outing, ruining time at home. Now I'm sweating, angry, scared. I don't even know if she's capable of normal 'frustration'. But I feel like I'm getting to the point of just wanting to bail as soon as there's an inkling of her getting to that place.

2. Setting expectations and boundaries for her financial contribution. This has been a big problem area, I've made some other posts about it and still struggling with what is right and what I need to do.

I put 100% of my income into the household finances. She puts a very small % of hers currently. She recently got a new p/t job tripling her income. We are deep in debt and I cannot cover all our monthly expenses. With her income if it's applied to our family finances we can probably pay off our debt in a year and have some savings, while still doing some fun things. In my opinion we both should have some play money but the rest should go to our joint finances. She doesn't see things that way.

She has been trying to establish an amount she can contribute so she can keep the rest. The amount she's 'proposed' is not much more then 1/2 of what she's earning. She said she's never made this kind of money before and wants to enjoy it. It's her time she said. She wants to have money in her account so when she wants to buy something she can. Like with so many things being married to a BP, it's all about her, it's one sided and it's making me a little sick. Also, she ends up throwing it in my face later when she does things like put her card down when we go out. Later in a rage she'll make sure to tell me that she pays for all the dates and I can't even afford to take her out anymore. She doesn't pay for all the dates but that's how she feels

We are supposed to meet with a financial counselor next week. I had high hopes that maybe someone else telling her/us what to do would help. But... a) I have serious doubts she'll attend. I've literally been rescheduling it for months because she keeps saying she isn't ready to meet, etc. b) like couples counseling I have doubts she would listen regardless of what this person might say. She's still going to feel what she feels and it seems what she feels is entitlement.

With #1 I can walk away, go to a hotel even if she starts raging. I can choose options to remove myself from that situation. With the finances thing I'm wondering WTH can I do. Since I can only control myself - what do I do when/if she holds her ground and she's keeping thousands a month for herself instead of contributing? Any suggestions?

---

I'm really wanting to make changes for myself because this is all B.S. I'm sick to my stomach I've let this go on as long as it has. I deserve better. My kids deserve(d) better. No one deserves to be treated like this. It's taken a long time for me to think that but I finally know it. But I'm ready to pull the ripcord and tell her here's the line of my boundary, here's the expectation and go F yourself if you don't like it. (I wouldn't say that of course but the end of my rope is near).

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[Notwendy]

These are difficult boundaries because there's an expectation on your part about your wife's behaviors. Boundaries are about ourselves- not someone else. We can not change anyone else's behavior. Boundaries are about our own response to when someone violates our boundaries.

What makes your situation difficult is that you are sharing a home and finances with someone with whom negotiating boundaries by talking about them doesn't work.

You can not control your wife's feelings or moods.
If the money she earns is sent directly to her- it's in her hands and you can't control what she does with it.

From my own experience- talking to someone who doesn't have the same sense of boundaries to try to change their behavior is not effective. The only thing we can do is control ours.

If you are feeling uncomfortable when your wife is in a "mood" ( and that's the term we used for my BPD mother's moods as well. "Mother is in a mood" - and we knew what that was) - the question is how will you manage your own feelings during this time. Thinking "how is this fair that you can't talk to your wife" is self defeating. Maybe it's not fair- but this is the situation and all you can do is decide your part in it. It's not that you can't talk to your wife when she's in a mood- you are anxious about it and probably for a reason. Knowing this is the situation, how will you respond?

The money situation is a difficult one. It was an issue between my parents. From my own perspective, it didn't seem fair but it was their marriage and their money. From interacting with my BPD mother, trying to reason with her doesn't work. Truly I think the only effective action is to control the money that comes directly to you.

If you are in debt from living above your means, I think you need to take action and live within your own income. It may be better for you to meet with the financial adviser on your own later after the visit with the two of you on how to manage on your income alone. What is happening is that you are contributing 100% and you are resenting that. Your boundary is to stop doing that. Stop the expensive dates and things you can't afford. I know this is easier said than done but I think this is a situation where taking action is more effecive than talking about it.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi campbembpd,

These two things are super tricky. Let me tackle them separately.

1. This first issue about boundaries around abuse is about listening to your gut. I know that you think your internal barometer is out-of-whack after years of gaslighting and abuse, but it isn't when it comes to sensing danger. If your gut is telling you to bail on the situation, listen to it! If this means that you hardly ever talk to your wife when she is in a bad mood, then so be it. Normal people have bad moods and are entitled to them, but they are not entitled to letting that bad mood turn into abuse. PwBPD often take their bad mood out on their FP and it becomes abusive quickly.

Your gut has been trained to let you know when things are about to go south with your wife. You have been watching her "tells" for years and know them on an instinctual level. It's called hypervigilance and it is a symptom of Complex PTSD (CPTSD - where the PTSD is caused by an ongoing trauma rather than a single incident.) My therapist diagnosed me with that recently and it has made a lot of what has been going on inside of me make sense. Removing yourself from the situation when your "Spidey-sense tingles" is the smartest thing you can do. It also removes reinforcement of your wife's negative and problematic behaviors. If she can't project her negative emotions onto you, then she will have to figure out how to self-soothe and deal with them on her own.

Ideally, this would eventually lead to her being able to better self-regulate and then you start to hang around when she is having a "normal" bad mood. My wife occasionally has those, but she still lacks enough skill at self-regulation to be able to handle feeling bad without projecting it onto me most of the time. This means that I remove myself as soon as I feel things start to go south. She HATES that, but it is starting to train her that taking things out on me is not just "not ok," but that taking things out on me will not be tolerated.

I know that the conventional wisdom says that boundaries are about protecting yourself and not changing the other person, but I believe that is not 100% true in all cases. I take a lot of responsibility for "training" my wife that it was ok to abuse me. Every time that she did so and I did nothing, it reinforced negative behavior and she would escalate. It eventually ended up in pretty severe physical abuse. I am now in the position of "re-training" her that her abusive behavior is not, in fact, ok, and that it will no longer be tolerated. She can hate her boss at work, but would never hit him over the head with something because she fears the consequences. She has now learned to fear the consequences of hitting me (the police came and threatened to take her away) and therefore no longer does it.

PwBPD can and do control their behavior. In most situations, no one suspects that there is a problem with the pwBPD because they are able to keep their impulses under control (work, social situations, etc.) It is only at home where it is "safe" to let "the freak flag fly" where they suddenly "lose control" over themselves and their behavior. I'm sure that your wife introduced bad behavior in your relationship incrementally like mine did. As she saw what she could get away with, with how much you would tolerate, that bad behavior increased in frequency and severity over time. Am I right? This is where the boundaries work with re-training the pwBPD to go back to a baseline level (the baseline level being the amount of abuse that they started with at the beginning of the devaluation stage before they escalated into full-blown abuse.)

My wife will never be "normal" without getting lots of therapy and doing lots of work on herself, but I have been pretty successful at reversing much of the damage that I did by allowing her to abuse me for so long. In that regard, boundaries do work to change the other person. It doesn't change her dysregulated state, but it has changed how she behaves around me. She doesn't want to go to jail or get put on a 72-hour involuntary mental hold so she knows better than to hit me or threaten to kill herself. The verbal, emotional, psychological, sexual, and spiritual abuse has been more difficult to reel back to baseline, but I am being vigilant with maintaining my boundaries and am chipping away at those bad behaviors as well. By removing myself from the situation every single time she starts the abuse, I am starving her of the response that she desires, and those behaviors are incrementally starting to lessen because they no longer produce the desired results. This is basic Behavioral Psychology 101 (B.F. Skinner.) Remove reinforcement from a behavior and the behavior will die (extinction.)

Use your script to lay down the rules, and then enforce them 100% of the time. If you start to feel bad that you are being too harsh by frequently removing yourself from an abusive situation, just remember the last time that she really laid into you and crushed you verbally/mentally/emotionally, and ask yourself; do you really want to tolerate that type of behavior? It makes the guilt go away quickly.

2. My wife has kept me financially strapped as a means of control. I don't pay 100% of the household expenses like you do, but it is >80%. To reverse this, I have cut out every single expense that is not 100% necessary to try to regain that control. That means that I have cut eating out, streaming channels, nights out, movies, etc. I buy generic everything at Walmart. I use whatever is left over to pay down debt. I am also working overtime at my job, and I am doing a side hustle training AI to earn extra money. This all goes to paying down debt. My plan is to be debt-free (except for student loans and the mortgage) in two years.

My wife does not like this either, but I have started to tell her that if she wants a night out to go and enjoy herself on her dime. I tell her that I cannot afford to spend any more money on anything but paying the bills and that any "excess" is going to pay down debt. We have separate checking accounts, so this has not been hard for me to do. If you guys have a joint account, I would recommend that you open your own and start having your checks deposited where she does not have access to the money. If her money is "her money" and your money is "our money" then you should be able to do that without feeling one whit of remorse. If my wife calls me cheap, I can ask her who bought the groceries that she is eating, pays for the phone she is using, etc. That usually quiets her down pretty quickly. The packages that arrive almost daily on our porch from Amazon haven't slowed down, so I assume she still has plenty of discretionary cash from her full-time job to indulge herself if she so chooses, but I am not going to be bullied into indulging her anymore.

Finally, if you are not already addressing this in individual therapy, please do so. My therapist has been a lifesaver. With her support, I have found that I am stronger than I ever thought I was. I have been able to de-personalize much of the verbal abuse that my wife spouts. I now look at her dysregulated behavior from a clinical standpoint much of the time and find that I no longer fear her, but have started to pity her instead. I still get the gut twists occasionally, but those are getting better too. The FOG is lifting and I can see my life getting better as time goes by.  Like you, I am ready to pull the ripcord if I have to, but will not do so unless I am A) left with no other choice (I have to protect S3) or B) she chooses to do so first. That way I am staying true to my values, but am standing up for myself in a way that shows our son that no one should tolerate abuse...even from someone that they love.

Best of luck,

HurtAndTired

[kells76]

One thought to add to this discussion:

I know that the conventional wisdom says that boundaries are about protecting yourself and not changing the other person, but I believe that is not 100% true in all cases. I take a lot of responsibility for "training" my wife that it was ok to abuse me. Every time that she did so and I did nothing, it reinforced negative behavior and she would escalate. It eventually ended up in pretty severe physical abuse. I am now in the position of "re-training" her that her abusive behavior is not, in fact, ok, and that it will no longer be tolerated. She can hate her boss at work, but would never hit him over the head with something because she fears the consequences. She has now learned to fear the consequences of hitting me (the police came and threatened to take her away) and therefore no longer does it.

We may be talking about the same thing from different angles.

Imagine two persons donating their entire fortunes to charity. While it wasn't a guarantee that it would happen, both receive widespread and positive attention -- glowing news articles, etc.

One person donated her fortune because that's who she wanted to be -- she knew it was possible that there would be positive attention, but that wasn't her goal.

The other person donated her fortune with the express goal of receiving the spotlight. Again, while it wasn't under her control, she was doing everything she could to influence the media to shine a positive light on her.

So the action (donating fortune) and outcome (positive media attention) were the same, but the intentions behind the action were completely different -- and the intentions do matter.

I wonder if we're talking about two aspects of boundaries (rules for ourselves) -- the intention behind boundaries, and the outcomes of boundaries, and how even when the action and outcome of having a boundary can be the same, the intention behind it can differ.

In your situation, you could hypothetically have two intentions behind your boundary:

-a foundational respect for yourself and decision to protect and respect yourself; or
-no meaningful respect or regard for yourself, but a desire to change/control the other person

The actions and outcomes of the boundary could be the same -- your W, for whatever reason (fear of consequences, concern for image, genuine insight, discomfort, whatever) changing how she relates -- but only the first intention (respecting yourself) seems valid in terms of true boundaries. The other intention is just being controlling.

I think I'm correct in guessing that when you say this:

I am now in the position of "re-training" her that her abusive behavior is not, in fact, ok, and that it will no longer be tolerated.

it's coming from a place of making a rule for yourself about your own value, that you will respect and protect yourself

versus coming from a place of wanting to control and manage your W's behavior?

it's a subtle difference -- but I think it's critical. And I suspect we're talking about different facets of the same topic.

...

With #1 I can walk away, go to a hotel even if she starts raging. I can choose options to remove myself from that situation. With the finances thing I'm wondering WTH can I do. Since I can only control myself - what do I do when/if she holds her ground and she's keeping thousands a month for herself instead of contributing? Any suggestions?

True boundaries are often uncomfortable.

I'd assume that she may continue keeping all "her" money for herself. I might also assume that she will never contribute to the "ours" household. You may need to assess what level of lifestyle you can responsibly afford on only your income. Sure, she may hold her ground and never contribute. You are allowed to plan and budget your own money to match what you can actually afford, regardless of what she does or doesn't do. You are allowed to have your own bank account. If you really can't afford to continue on "as is" without her contributing, then yeah, you may need to make some changes on your end. We have to solve the problems actually in front of us, not the problems we wish we had instead.

I wonder if the challenge is less about knowing what needs to be done, and more about managing the discomfort of sticking to it?

[CC43]

Hi Camp,

Your situation sounds tough, and it's not easy to assess the intensity of your partner's moods.  My husband, who doesn't have BPD but probably has some BPD traits, can be moody at times.  I've had to establish some boundaries with him, but I confess I'm not always perfect about implementing my boundaries, because his outbursts can be very sudden--he goes from 0 to 60 in less than a second--and seemingly out of nowhere.

Anyway, I try to focus less on the mood and more on the actual behavior.  For instance, it's clear when my husband is crabby, but I'll generally let him complain about things that don't involve me directly.  It's true that work, family issues and daily stresses can wear us all down, and crabbiness from time to time is warranted.  But my husband has a bad habit of yelling at me very loudly when he is displeased with me, triggered by something seemingly insignificant (like me being out of the house for "too long," anything longer than one hour).  My boundary is that when he starts yelling at me, I ask him to lower his voice (step one).  If he continues to yell, I try to extricate myself from the situation (step two), by hanging up the phone or leaving the room, to give him time to calm down.  If he calls me again or follows me around, I repeat the process (ask him to please lower his voice, and if he doesn't comply, try to hang up or leave the other room).  It's not always possible, though, because sometimes we'll be in the car, for example.  In that scenario, I'll just stop talking, as anything I say basically feeds his ire, because to him, I'm being argumentative and disrespectful.  I'll note that many times, my husband doesn't think he's yelling (at least that's what he yells back!).  But that's just a lie.  What I've learned is that there is no arguing with him when he's upset and yelling.  He has no interest in hearing my version of events, or showing empathy about my need to have a life outside the confines of the home.  The thing is, he can be very controlling, and his anger is easily triggered--especially if I have a success, meet with friends or don't cater to him every second of the day.  But the difference with BPD is that I think he actually knows he has this issue, and that the problem is more with him than with me.  Sometimes he'll apologize later, sometimes not. 

I understand that shared finances can be tricky.  Like you, I think that with my partner, I bear a disproportionate burden--I've allowed myself to be responsible for a disproportionate amount of household finances and chores.  Maybe part of that relates to my husband's inability to have "empathy" for what others contribute--he's basically solely focused on what HE contributes.  For example, if he goes to the grocery once in two months, that's all he remembers, and he'll complain he does ALL the grocery shopping, completely ignoring the fact that I did the shopping for the other seven weeks.  This phenomenon----selective financial memory--applies practically across the board.  Maybe he's in "denial."  And I don't like to pay late fees or miss payments, whereas that seems to be almost standard practice for him--and what happens is that I'll make a payment, to keep the lights on, pay the taxes or avoid late fees.  So mentally, I've just accepted the fact that I need to finance our joint lifestyle, and anything he decides to contribute is gravy.  But I confess, when I get frustrated at his comments ("I do all the grocery shopping"), sometimes I say, OK then, you go ahead and do ALL the grocery shopping next week.  And the refrigerator will get empty, and he'll grudgingly run to the store.  That usually stops the complaining pretty quickly.  So sometimes I think he is blind to my contributions, because he's just thinking about the money leaving his own wallet.

But in my case, I have the capacity to finance the both of us, and I just end up paying much more than my fair share.  Maybe my husband realizes this, making him feel like less of a provider, and triggering his anger towards me sometimes.  And maybe I shouldn't be thinking in terms of "my" share of expenses at all.  However, in practice, I need to do this, because if my husband feels flush with cash, he'll continue to bankroll the inflated lifestyles of extended family members.  So I feel I can't be too generous with household finances, as I can finance the immediate family, but I don't have the capacity to pay for his adult children and parents in perpetuity (rent payments, vacations, secondary education, cars, home improvements, telephones, entertainment, drugs, etc.).  I can't finance his family's underemployment/unemployment.  So what did I do?  I retired.  If I kept working, I'd just be enabling his family's unemployment, and that is neither sustainable nor fair to yours truly.

As I write this, the refrigerator is starting to look empty.  I've probably spent over $1k on groceries since his last trip to the store.  I feel like he really needs to make a run to the store this week, lest he completely forget how much I contribute, and he can be reminded of food price inflation first-hand.  I told him three days ago it was his turn, and he still hasn't gone.  So I'm enforcing a little boundary (he should go to the grocery once every couple of months) by letting the refrigerator become empty.

[HurtAndTired]

Thanks for the reply Kells,

I agree that we are saying the same thing but are coming at it from different angles. When I talk about changing my wife's behavior I am talking about stopping her from abusing me (protecting myself vs. control for control's sake.) However, I think that the reason why it is so important for me to include the viewpoint that boundaries DO give you some control is because as a victim of abuse, it is so important to reclaim a sense of control over your own life.

After feeling powerless for so long, boundaries have given me a sense of empowerment. I have also realized that it was my previous lack of boundaries (or very weak boundaries) that gave my wife "permission" to abuse me. It all comes back to the idea that people only treat you how you allow them to treat you. It has been a breakthrough realization for me that has truly changed my life and I am eager to share that empowerment with others who are also being abused.

Ultimately, I have no control over my wife's disorder, but I do have control over what behaviors I will tolerate. You are also correct that boundaries are hard to do. You have to be willing to accept that you cannot control how another person will react to your boundaries. It is even harder to accept that if the person cannot or will not respect your boundaries, you will have to follow through with consequences up to and including ending the relationship (if a core boundary is repeatedly violated.) It is not for the faint of heart, but it is an effective, one way or another, way to end intolerable behavior from another person.

HurtAndTired

[campbembpd]

Thank you all for the great comments and feedback...

HurtandTired - (BTW, I feel like I could have the same name ). Absolutely I have hypervigilance, talked to my therapist about it. And yes my spidey senses know when she's brewing. I guess if I set a boundary it seems a little nebulous to say something like "if I sense you're getting angry/irritated I will leave the room/house/area I will have to leave for x time" or what would one say in that regard?

She wants to 'discuss' things but I see she's unregulated and becoming unhinged. Funny some of you mentioned the same thing that it seems the more I talk and engage (calmly) the higher the emotions go. Been working on saying fewer words but in the moment it's hard when she's asking direct questions that I feel are simple answers. Then it doesn't seem to matter how I answer it's not what she wants right?

We did go see a financial counselor today. I'm shocked she actually went. But it went about as well as it could. She was making digs the entire time. It was hard and I was embarrassed. Thankfully the advisor was such a pro and she did great. We kind of came away with a plan but my uBPDw got escalated more. It's crazy standing there listen to her say I didn't say this in our financial meeting, I didn't give her enough praise. But I did say those things. Just another example of her feelings=facts. She started to attack me again saying I won't work more for our family... is this insane right? I work a professional F/T job+. And her hours just got cut so right now she's maybe going to be 10-12 hours a week. I calmly said I'm maxed out with a FT job but it would help the family if she could may work 20-25 hours a week. All of the sudden she talked about how she can't physically do it. What?? She has a pelvic floor issue and will have discomfort from time to time. But she's never talked about this as a barrier to working. It certainly isn't a barrier to her living life, working out, going out, traveling, etc. But it's wild like how this is just came in as what I see as a complete tool of manipulation. I guess if she's too 'sick' to work then she's the victim and I become the persecutor because I'm 'making' her to work?

Maybe I could do a side hustle but if I do it I have to make it for me. Honestly, I've thought about it and maybe I could find something I really enjoy doing just to get out of the house more. But it's stupid because this is the push pull right? She wants more money, she thinks I should work more but she can barely stand me spending a night a week with my son, she hates to be alone. I know not to take anything she says now seriously.

And I was better tonight. I stayed pretty stoic and unreactive to her prodding. I really am working on looking at her more clinically. I still have those gut twists but I am working on looking at her as a mentally ill person, it helps in those moments to think I'm talking to someone out of their mind. It's helping me disconnect more.

She asked me to go to a hotel tonight so I told her I would. After a few mins I asked if she was sure. She started to talk in circles again. I didn't provide much responses to anything she was saying. But I did sit there for 10 more minutes maybe. Then said I would leave for a couple of hours. She said I could leave and said I needed to miss her, then maybe I would make her feel loved again. ugh... So I grabbed my stuff, left and I'm sitting in a coffee shop enjoying not being in her presence. Don't miss it at all .

She's drinking a lot lately and today is no exception. Yesterday she was in a good mood. She didn't have any work and when I got home at 4:30 she announced she had been day drinking and already had 4 glasses of wine. She had 2 more martinis. Today she was on her 6th glass when I left the house. So I expect when I get home in a couple hours she's going to want to pull me right in and she'll be more loaded. I'm going to have to be strong. But alcohol definitely makes it worse for her. I guess a good boundary to have is I won't argue about anything or have any discussions about anything serious if she's had more then a glass of wine for example. Or maybe none at all... Once I knew she was drinking today I made sure to not have any.

And I agree with that sentiment - People only treat you how you allow them to treat you.

Thanks all - great words and advice and love the sharing of your specific circumstances.

[Notwendy]

More money is a nice thing but I don't think it's a solution to your situation and I think you know that. There's an emotional need that can not be met by something external. This is the situation with my BPD mother- and a need to be taken care of and a sense of entitlement.

Your wife isn't just drinking. This is a lot of alcohol. Truthfully- she's an alcoholic. Having a boundary about speaking to her only if she's had one drink- I think you know that isn't applicable with alcoholism. At the center of all addictions is escape from difficult feelings and so alcoholism or other addictions have a purpose for someone with BPD too. My BPD mother drank for this purpose as well.

I think you mentioned becoming sober yourself. I don't have an issue with drinking myself but you know it involves family too.  I've been in 12 step CODA and ACA groups, and some of the members are also in AA for alcoholism. The first goal was to get sober but once they stopped drinking, they then had to focus on the reasons they used alcohol to begin with- mostly co-dependency. You may want to consider looking at this idea for your situation as you are having difficulties with boundaries with your wife.

Posting here because your posts remind me of my parent's situation during my teen years and your D is preparing to start college. While I agree that the marital relationship is the priority, it's not the only relationship in the family but it seemed that the singular focus was my mother, her wishes, her moods, her feelings. There seemed to always be some crisis or situation, or need on her part that must be attended to.

IMHO, I think boundaries - and support for having them- is the direction to go, not to get a second job unless you do like it and it's an excuse to get out of the house- then go for it. My father escaped to coffee places too. As to her working- if this were my mother, she would find this unaceptable. It doesn't go along with her need to be taken care of, and her sense of entitlement. Asking her to do something results in her feeling indignant. Expecting her to do something is not reliable. If something is important or needs to be done- it should not involve her cooperation.

The boundary for this is- if your wife doesn't want to work- then you live within the limits of your income only. If she wants more- she can go to work for that.

[campbembpd]

More money is a nice thing but I don't think it's a solution to your situation and I think you know that. There's an emotional need that can not be met by something external. This is the situation with my BPD mother- and a need to be taken care of and a sense of entitlement.

Your wife isn't just drinking. This is a lot of alcohol. Truthfully- she's an alcoholic. Having a boundary about speaking to her only if she's had one drink- I think you know that isn't applicable with alcoholism. At the center of all addictions is escape from difficult feelings and so alcoholism or other addictions have a purpose for someone with BPD too. My BPD mother drank for this purpose as well.

I think you mentioned becoming sober yourself. I don't have an issue with drinking myself but you know it involves family too.  I've been in 12 step CODA and ACA groups, and some of the members are also in AA for alcoholism. The first goal was to get sober but once they stopped drinking, they then had to focus on the reasons they used alcohol to begin with- mostly co-dependency. You may want to consider looking at this idea for your situation as you are having difficulties with boundaries with your wife.

Posting here because your posts remind me of my parent's situation during my teen years and your D is preparing to start college. While I agree that the marital relationship is the priority, it's not the only relationship in the family but it seemed that the singular focus was my mother, her wishes, her moods, her feelings. There seemed to always be some crisis or situation, or need on her part that must be attended to.

IMHO, I think boundaries - and support for having them- is the direction to go, not to get a second job unless you do like it and it's an excuse to get out of the house- then go for it. My father escaped to coffee places too. As to her working- if this were my mother, she would find this unaceptable. It doesn't go along with her need to be taken care of, and her sense of entitlement. Asking her to do something results in her feeling indignant. Expecting her to do something is not reliable. If something is important or needs to be done- it should not involve her cooperation.

The boundary for this is- if your wife doesn't want to work- then you live within the limits of your income only. If she wants more- she can go to work for that.

Thanks Notwendy

I 100% think she's an alcoholic. I drink still myself but I'll take breaks - Dry Jan, and don't drink daily. When she's drinking and is in a dysregulated state I won't drink when she is.

 What you said: "If something is important or needs to be done- it should not involve her cooperation." that's so true. Even now we came to an agreement over what would be a starting point for her to contribute. I can only imagine the monthly argument over it when I ask for her to xfer in the agreed upon amount. Or being upset about the pressure she's under and it's too much. We set a 3 month trial before we are meeting with the financial counselor again so we'll see how it goes.

2 issues with trying to do it without her cooperation:

1. I have been going through to see what could be done but I can only barely live check to check if the expenses if all of her share is handed to her (i.e. setup her car payment, other expenses to come out of her account) and I would still need for her to pay her portion of the phone bill and vehicle insurance. It seems like it would still need some cooperation for contributions. And there's no money whatsoever for anything unexpected, savings, paying off debt or even going out to eat once in a while. So money isn't everything but if I do it myself it's hard to see an option without getting a side gig.

2. The resentment. I'm having a hard time with the resentment piece and letting go. The entitlement, the unwillingness to help the family, despite being capable of it. And maybe it's stupid but I worry about what others will think about me. She already tells people that I cut her off from our joint account and she doesn't have access to 'my' money. Of course she doesn't tell them the whole store - that I put 100% of my income in, we're going into debt every month so there already isn't enough money to pay the bills, let alone when she decides to go shopping or out for a $200 lunch and I don't know about it. So I did tell her we have to discuss if money's going to be spent out of the account so the mortgage can be paid. People hearing her side not knowing all the behind the scenes secrets will think I'm a monster. I don't care about her friends, but mutual friends and family I do are about what they think. And if I do have to get a side gig, because she refuses to work/contribute... I fear that resentment will only build. I would really start living my own separate life and would lose the desire to do anything with her or spend any money on her if she won't and this is one sided. She would hate it (because she would feel even more entitled thinking I should be taking her out and doing things more), and I would hate it because I would be less inclined to spend any money on her and put even more into the house/debts/savings. Ugh

[Notwendy]

From my own experience, the finances have been a difficult thing to resolve- and I don't have a solution. The reason is that- money and numbers are logical but this relationship to money is emotional and not rational. The spending is connected to trying to fill an emotional void that is huge and not able to be filled by something external. Having seen my mother put very large anounts of money to this need, I don't believe the solution is more money. I think the money is part of the entirety of BPD behaviors.

Yes, she will say things about you. ( and whoever else she is upset with). I heard it when we were kids. She will blame you, and she also has blamed me. What has been enlightening is that, in her elder years, she does the same thing with her caregivers and medical providers. The people who are helping her the most are the ones she most accuses. I used to be upset by this but now, I just ignore it.

I understand the resentment but as we learned in 12 steps - it comes from when we do things that we don't really feel are fair but we are afraid to say no, and it comes from expecting people to be different from who they are. I've felt this way about my mother but now understand that she is who she is, and your wife is who she is. Expecting her to pitch in when she isn't willing to do that- or see how unfair things are from your perspective. She doesn't see it. My mother doesn't either. She feels entitled and there is no changing how she feels.

She has not been agreeable to any spending advice- not from me, not from some of her family members who have also tried. Logic and talking doesn't work with her. There isn't a sense of teamwork or fairness. I would not ever be comfortable spending like she does while my spouse worked even harder and did with less to provide that like my father did. But considering these things is not something my mother does. It doesn't register with her.

Expecting your wife to be fair with money may be expecting her to be different than she is. All you can control is your response to it. I can relate to the stress of being in debt- my father was and the tension was obvious. I think it's worth a visit - just you- with the financial adviser to see what you can do to live on your income. You are living above your means. Yes, your wife will hate it if you don't spend money on her but the reality is- the number in the bank isn't about her feelings.

[HurtAndTired]

Hi Camp,

I hear you so loud and clear. I have been in such a very similar predicament. My wife also drinks to excess nearly daily. One way that I have cut her off financially is that I no longer buy her booze. If she wants to get wasted, it's going to be on her dime. Like you, I still occasionally drink...mostly beer. I'm not going to give up something that I enjoy and don't have a problem with because she has a drinking problem. I don't know if she is technically an alcoholic, but the label doesn't matter. What matters is that she is self-medicating and that she clearly has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. It's amazing how much money I have saved by not buying her booze! (She now buys her own bottles of the hard stuff and squirrels them away around the house..never a good sign.)

As for resentment, it is natural to feel resentment about how you are being treated. I too resent how my wife treats me. The unreasonable demands and expectations. The entitlement. The complete lack of accepting any responsibility for herself, her feelings, and the condition of her life. How could you not resent that? I don't know if I can, or even if I should let that 100% go. Even radical acceptance means that you accept that the person is how they are and that you cannot change that, but it doesn't mean that you have to like it. You just need to learn how to live with it if you plan to continue on in the relationship. There are also things that you will decide that need to change as a condition of the relationship continuing (e.g. no physical abuse will be tolerated, which is a healthy boundary that nearly every person has and enforces and is NOT an unreasonable ultimatum.)

The fear of how others will see you is also a familiar feeling to me. The way that I have handled it is that I have stopped caring about what her friends and family think. We don't really have many mutual friends if I am being honest about it. I used to think that some of HER friends were mutual, but when the rubber meets the road they are clearly going to be in her camp, so I have written them off. If they get turned into her flying monkeys, so be it.

MY friends, on the other hand, will always be my friends. They are the ones that I have known for decades before I even met her. They are also the ones that I isolated myself from (under pressure from her) and I have been working hard on repairing those relationships so that I have the support I need. Those friends are the ones that I have shared my wife's BPD diagnosis with. I have told them about the abuse. Ditto with my family and my priest. I am not trying to turn them against her. Far from it. I have simply told them that I am working on trying to save my marriage, but that they need to know what I am up against. The support that I have received has been overwhelming and universal. So many people have told me that they finally understand why I have been acting so strangely for all of this time.

It has been an amazing experience letting go of the shame and the fear. I am no longer ashamed that I am a victim of abuse (men are frequently ashamed of being abused by a woman.) I will no longer cover for my abuser, lie for her, or minimize the damage she has done to me. She is the one who should feel ashamed, not me. I am not afraid of people thinking badly of me either. If they are willing to believe lies, then they were never really my friends to begin with.

Just to be safe, I also shared my wife's condition with my principal, superintendent, and HR director (I'm a teacher.) I want to be proactive in case she ever tries to go on a full-on smear campaign against me (she has threatened a few times to tell people that I am sleeping with my students' mothers and even my students.) It is important that people who have influence over my employment understand that my wife is seriously mentally ill, occasionally delusional, and that she is capable of telling terrible lies about me before she ever gets a chance to do so. I have also captured these threats via audio recordings and text messages. Making these threats is a felony in my state, so I have that evidence tucked away for a rainy day (this is on the advice of my friend on the police force and also a lawyer I have consulted with.)

My advice to you is to get your ducks in a row. Hold your head up high, and draw your lines in the sand. If you don't stand up for yourself, no one else is going to do it. It is going to be a rough slog and you will have days when you feel like caving...don't. Your financial situation is also abuse. Financial abuse. Going to the financial advisor was brilliant, but you have to keep pushing your wife on what she can cut in her budget, how she can work more, and what else she can contribute. There is not a whole lot more you can do yourself. Make the gravity of the situation clear to her (i.e. we may have to move to a smaller house, give up a car, etc.) unless she starts ponying up a fair share of the cost of her preferred lifestyle.

Think of your wife as a bully. She rules you by fear. As soon as you let the fear go she will see that you are no longer afraid of her and that pushing you around has consequences she doesn't like or even fears. Most bullies crumble at this point. Yes, she may go ballistic and throw temper tantrums to try to get you to go back to having no boundaries (extinction burst.) They could go on for quite a while. My wife's extinction burst lasted for a few months. However, it is likely she will eventually (albeit reluctantly) adapt to her new reality. A reality where she is married to a man who won't put up with her bad behavior and will call her out on it.

There is also a chance that this means that the relationship will end. I have made peace with that eventuality. I don't want my marriage to end, but it's better that my wife walks away from it if she is unwilling or unable to change than me continuing to suffer debilitating abuse. I want my marriage to continue, but I don't want to stay in an abusive marriage. My boundaries can all be summed up as "I will not tolerate abuse." I think that is a pretty damn reasonable boundary. It's a boundary that most people would just assume naturally exists in relationships.

I hope that I have not been coming off as being too combative, but I have really been through hell this past year. It is hard to not sound combative when it feels like I have been fighting for my life (I have...and fighting for our son's life as well.) My paternal grandmother was likely uBPD and I saw how my grandfather surrendered every bit of agency he had in his life to her. She even picked out his clothes for him and ordered his food at restaurants. I can't let my son grow up seeing me like that and think that this is what a normal marriage looks like. I can't let the pattern continue.

As a parting thought I wanted to talk about codependency vs. HSPs. While it is true that some of us "nons" may be codependent, I have found that most of us here are not. You, in particular, do not strike me as a codependent person (codependents get something out of the toxic but symbiotic relationship, most of us "nons" get nothing but grief.) Codependent people tend to come from families where they have a non-secure attachment style (anxious, avoidant, or disorganized) to their caregivers. This is not the case with me and most of the other folks I have met on here. I have a secure attachment to my parents. I am not codependent. I am able to stand up for myself in all other areas of my life. However, I AM a Highly Sensitive Person (HSP) or empath. We make up about 10% of the population and are the polar opposites of High Conflict People (HCPs, who also make up about 10% of the population.)

We tend to be highly intelligent, easily sense others' emotions and often go into jobs where we can help people (teaching, nursing, etc.) Our high capacity for empathy is what draws pwBPD to us like flies. PwBPD are often HCPs and feed off of our great capacity for empathy. Left unchecked, pwBPD can suck us dry through what is otherwise a superpower-like gift to be giving and understanding. Codependents have serious issues of their own that they need to work out. HSPs just need to learn to stand up for themselves and remove themselves from HCPs when they are getting too drained. I am trying to raise awareness of HSPs vs. codependency on these boards because the last thing that we "nons" need is do more work on ourselves for a problem that most of us don't have.

Good luck and I'm rooting for you,

HurtAndTired

[Notwendy]

I think co-dependency is a difficult concept because of the word "dependency". Most people with co-dependent traits or behaviors are not dependent people. In fact most of the people I have met are the opposite- acting like caretakers and being responsible for people who are dependent on them.

I think this term was meant to describe the focus and reactivity of the "co-dependent" partner. The partner's  who is dependent seems to be driving the relationship and the other is their co-pilot.(co-dependent). In ACA there's one behavior "we became reactors rather than actors" meaning- our actions are following the emotions and behaviors of someone else rather than our own self direction. If there's someone we are connected to with chaotic emotions, we are then trying to manage or placate that person's feelings and people lose connection with their own selves in these situations.

It was a counselor who suggested co-dependency and my initial response was similar-" I am not the one with the problem" but we can only make changes to ourselves and I was willing to give the idea a try. I sat in my first 12 step meeting thinking why am I here- I don't drink too much and I'm not a dependent person but eventually I found it helpful.

So whether someone is a HSP or a co-dependent or both, I don't think the label matters as much as whether or not it's possibly helpful to get advice for people with that label if it also helps regardless. I didn't see it as a problem as much as a source of help. Not everything works for everyone. We take what works and dismiss what doesn't but I woudn't let the label be a deterrent if it could lead to something helpful.