Should I detach?

[hashbrown111822]

Hi everyone,

I posted twice on the 'repairing a relationship/reversing a breakup' boards, but moving over here now due to recent events. I'm scared to detach.

My ex with BPD (29 yrs, male) recently ended our relationship. We were together a year and a half. He's the love of my life.

He's an addict but has been sober for ~3 years, and diagnosed BPD for ~2 years. He's been in DBT therapy with a trained BPD therapist since before we dated. His therapist has told him that on the spectrum of BPD symptoms, he is a mild case. I learned a lot about BPD during our time together and handled it pretty well. We continually got better and better at navigating the relationship with each other. It was tumultuous -- but also very, very loving. His core being always seemed so sweet, and so interested in healing/recovery.

Starting in early/mid April, he began expressing to me that he felt cravings to drink again and "blow up his life." He was starting a new career from scratch, and he felt deeply unhappy with who he was and where he was in his life. He became more and more angry at the world -- angrier than I've ever seen him. I think he was splitting, and painting me black. I was part of the "problem," and no longer conducive to his lifestyle as he pursued this new career path. He broke up with me May 1st, expressing that he didn't think he could be in a relationship right now and he didn't know what he wanted or needed.

We've been in communication most of the time since. I saw that sweet, healing person completely dissipate. He is so filled with self-hatred and anger. He's blown up at me more than he ever has in the past -- twice via text and three times over the phone. We weren't even having arguments, he would just start verbally assaulting me. Each time he pushed my boundaries further and further. He name-called me (never did before, I told him it was a hard line for me), and told me I make him want to kill himself, and I make him want to put his fist through a wall. He'd never connected me with physical violence before. I told him it was unacceptable for him to treat me like that, and if he wasn't in a place to make a significant change and get serious help, I needed him out of my life. I asked him not to contact me, but we agreed to not block each other's numbers (as he said, "just in case"). It was understood that if he gets to a different place, he could reach back out.

While I think I have been painted black, I don't think I've been discarded. I don't think he would've ever completely cut contact with me. Only several days ago, I was at his house, in his arms, and he told me that it was harder and harder to not be with me. He was intensely confused about his life, but he missed me and wanted to be with me. He just wasn't sure how. Even in our final conversation, he told me that he still loves me, he thinks of me every day, he misses me, and he does want to talk to me and have me in his life... he just has no idea who he is/what he needs, and he has many resentments to work through, including resentments about me.

I want so desperately for him to have a moment of reflection where he thinks "damn, I don't want to be this kind of man." This HAS HAPPENED with him before -- both when he got sober, and when he hit a rock bottom around the time we met. He reflected, wanted to change, got diagnosed, started therapy, started meds, etc. I know I can't hold out for that though.

I don't know if this shift from him being overwhelmingly sweet/kind/caring to him being overwhelmingly angry/bitter/cruel is just temporary, like most BPD emotions... or if this part of him will now be with him forever. I literally have never seen this behavior in the 2 years I've known him...

I do know I'm scared to detach. I'm scared to let go. I'm scared that detaching will mean I'll stop loving him, or feeling anything for him. And if I detach, and he does actually swing back to his 'old' self OR he heals/changes for the better... then I'm terrified of the uncertainty and anxiety that would come with re-entering the BPD relationship, knowing that this is now a potential outcome. Any advice would be so helpful.

[jaded7]

Hi everyone,

I posted twice on the 'repairing a relationship/reversing a breakup' boards, but moving over here now due to recent events. I'm scared to detach.

My ex with BPD (29 yrs, male) recently ended our relationship. We were together a year and a half. He's the love of my life.

He's an addict but has been sober for ~3 years, and diagnosed BPD for ~2 years. He's been in DBT therapy with a trained BPD therapist since before we dated. His therapist has told him that on the spectrum of BPD symptoms, he is a mild case. I learned a lot about BPD during our time together and handled it pretty well. We continually got better and better at navigating the relationship with each other. It was tumultuous -- but also very, very loving. His core being always seemed so sweet, and so interested in healing/recovery.

Starting in early/mid April, he began expressing to me that he felt cravings to drink again and "blow up his life." He was starting a new career from scratch, and he felt deeply unhappy with who he was and where he was in his life. He became more and more angry at the world -- angrier than I've ever seen him. I think he was splitting, and painting me black. I was part of the "problem," and no longer conducive to his lifestyle as he pursued this new career path. He broke up with me May 1st, expressing that he didn't think he could be in a relationship right now and he didn't know what he wanted or needed.

We've been in communication most of the time since. I saw that sweet, healing person completely dissipate. He is so filled with self-hatred and anger. He's blown up at me more than he ever has in the past -- twice via text and three times over the phone. We weren't even having arguments, he would just start verbally assaulting me. Each time he pushed my boundaries further and further. He name-called me (never did before, I told him it was a hard line for me), and told me I make him want to kill himself, and I make him want to put his fist through a wall. He'd never connected me with physical violence before. I told him it was unacceptable for him to treat me like that, and if he wasn't in a place to make a significant change and get serious help, I needed him out of my life. I asked him not to contact me, but we agreed to not block each other's numbers (as he said, "just in case"). It was understood that if he gets to a different place, he could reach back out.

While I think I have been painted black, I don't think I've been discarded. I don't think he would've ever completely cut contact with me. Only several days ago, I was at his house, in his arms, and he told me that it was harder and harder to not be with me. He was intensely confused about his life, but he missed me and wanted to be with me. He just wasn't sure how. Even in our final conversation, he told me that he still loves me, he thinks of me every day, he misses me, and he does want to talk to me and have me in his life... he just has no idea who he is/what he needs, and he has many resentments to work through, including resentments about me.

I want so desperately for him to have a moment of reflection where he thinks "damn, I don't want to be this kind of man." This HAS HAPPENED with him before -- both when he got sober, and when he hit a rock bottom around the time we met. He reflected, wanted to change, got diagnosed, started therapy, started meds, etc. I know I can't hold out for that though.

I don't know if this shift from him being overwhelmingly sweet/kind/caring to him being overwhelmingly angry/bitter/cruel is just temporary, like most BPD emotions... or if this part of him will now be with him forever. I literally have never seen this behavior in the 2 years I've known him...

I do know I'm scared to detach. I'm scared to let go. I'm scared that detaching will mean I'll stop loving him, or feeling anything for him. And if I detach, and he does actually swing back to his 'old' self OR he heals/changes for the better... then I'm terrified of the uncertainty and anxiety that would come with re-entering the BPD relationship, knowing that this is now a potential outcome. Any advice would be so helpful.

I did see your posts on the other board. Very challenging situation you're in here. We all know this very well, so you aren't alone.

I really loved reading about your excellent boundary setting:

 "He's blown up at me more than he ever has in the past -- twice via text and three times over the phone. We weren't even having arguments, he would just start verbally assaulting me. Each time he pushed my boundaries further and further. He name-called me (never did before, I told him it was a hard line for me), and told me I make him want to kill himself, and I make him want to put his fist through a wall. He'd never connected me with physical violence before. I told him it was unacceptable for him to treat me like that, and if he wasn't in a place to make a significant change and get serious help, I needed him out of my life."

I mean, that's really good. You did way better than me when I was called names and belittled and yelled at. Name calling is abusive, threatening violence or self-harm and saying YOU make him do it is abusive.

But then, not long after:

"Only several days ago, I was at his house, in his arms, and he told me that it was harder and harder to not be with me. He was intensely confused about his life, but he missed me and wanted to be with me. He just wasn't sure how. Even in our final conversation, he told me that he still loves me, he thinks of me every day, he misses me, and he does want to talk to me and have me in his life... he just has no idea who he is/what he needs, and he has many resentments to work through, including resentments about me. "

This is the push pull we so often speak about. And the lack of clarity. He doesn't know who he is or what he needs, but he wants you to have you in his life and be able to talk to you. In spite of the resentments he has for you.

This is a very tough situation to be in, and makes detaching very hard. It's an in-between space.

I understand the fear of detaching.

"I'm scared that detaching will mean I'll stop loving him, or feeling anything for him." Isn't that interesting? Your fear is you losing your love for him.

I had/have these same fears. Now years after my relationship ended, I am still attached to her. Not to scare you, I have very deep attachment wounds and SA in my childhood that contribute to this. But I'm similar in that I'm afraid of something if I detach from her emotionally.....that thing is hard to pin down.

It's related to losing myself....both physically (because we were of course intimate with each other and that is a powerful area for me) and emotionally (because of FOO issues and not having real love as a kid). But it's absolutely about losing myself if I were to detach from her. In the early days I actually felt a huge black hole of missing 'me' in my lower belly...I could see it I my mind, and it felt like she had a piece of me that I couldn't get back. And I needed to get it back.

Maybe that will be a little helpful to you.

[hashbrown111822]

Jaded,

Thank you for your thoughtful response, and your positive feedback about my boundary setting. I am proud of myself for that.

I truly feel for you. I'm terrified that, years from now, I'll still be attached to him -- just as you said. Even if I process and move on, that my life will altogether not be as good as it was with him in it. Because, truthfully, it wasn't as good before him.

I am fortunate that I don't have a history of deep traumas or wounds. I do have self-love, self-esteem, and self-worth. I like myself. I have other parts of my life that are fulfilling and enjoyable to me. I think what scares me most is that -- in spite of all that -- I still feel this way. Everything was just more with him. I'm scared it'll never be as much again.

BPD aside, he was everything I'd ever wanted to find. We dreamed of a long life together. He said he'd waited years for real love (he had a very abusive childhood and nothing but toxic relationships before me). He'd waited his whole life to find me. I waited my whole life to find him.

I just can't believe I'm here.

[jaded7]

Jaded,

Thank you for your thoughtful response, and your positive feedback about my boundary setting. I am proud of myself for that.

I truly feel for you. I'm terrified that, years from now, I'll still be attached to him -- just as you said. Even if I process and move on, that my life will altogether not be as good as it was with him in it. Because, truthfully, it wasn't as good before him.

I am fortunate that I don't have a history of deep traumas or wounds. I do have self-love, self-esteem, and self-worth. I like myself. I have other parts of my life that are fulfilling and enjoyable to me. I think what scares me most is that -- in spite of all that -- I still feel this way. Everything was just more with him. I'm scared it'll never be as much again.

BPD aside, he was everything I'd ever wanted to find. We dreamed of a long life together. He said he'd waited years for real love (he had a very abusive childhood and nothing but toxic relationships before me). He'd waited his whole life to find me. I waited my whole life to find him.

I just can't believe I'm here.

Since you knew he had BPD and you learned a lot about it early on, I'm pretty sure you've read Stop Walking On Eggshells, and I Hate You Don't Leave Me. But if you haven't they are an excellent resource.

I know I know that feeling of deep love. It might be the caretaker part of us that wants to believe that our love will heal our partners, that they will see we mean no harm, that they will see we are there for them.

The person you are attached to has BPD, diagnosed. That diagnosis doesn't come out of nowhere, it means there are seriously challenging personality problems that manifest most intensely in the closest relationships. And that they are out in the open....his therapist/psychiatrist or whomever saw them. This is not to say he is a bad person. It's just that these things are real....this whole board is testament to that. You've listed several behaviors here that are clear.

You should be proud of your boundary setting! That's self-love and recognizing you are worth being treated with respect. I wish I had done more of that myself. It's a very good sign that you were able to do that.

I do know that feeling of hoping they will suddenly realize "damn...I want to be a better man/woman". That they'll have some sudden insight into how their words and behavior affect you, and realize they are hurting a good person. Hope and hope.

Your words "I just can't believe I'm here" really touched my heart. I've read them many times on board. Thought them many times myself.

You have a very good foundation of self-love and self-esteem. Even the best of us can get caught up these dynamics. But your foundation bodes well for you and your processing of all the crazy-making stuff, in my non-clinical opinion.

Keep posting and reading, everybody here is really kind and thoughtful. Even if they don't reply know that other's read and learn and feel less alone knowing your story.

[hashbrown111822]

I've read a different BPD book at the beginning of the relationship, but I've heard of these many times and should give them a read.

I went into our relationship with eyes wide open. I don't think I was in denial about the reality of his BPD... but maybe I'm in denial over being where I now am. Maybe it's the same thing.

It's so hard to see him operate in -- and receive the effects of -- this new place he's gotten to, so full of hatred and anger. As you said, all I want to do is love him. Even now. I catch myself even hoping that the enforcement of these new boundaries will be the thing he needs to make realizations and change his behavior... but I know that's ultimately out of my control.

[jaded7]

I've read a different BPD book at the beginning of the relationship, but I've heard of these many times and should give them a read.

I went into our relationship with eyes wide open. I don't think I was in denial about the reality of his BPD... but maybe I'm in denial over being where I now am. Maybe it's the same thing.

It's so hard to see him operate in -- and receive the effects of -- this new place he's gotten to, so full of hatred and anger. As you said, all I want to do is love him. Even now. I catch myself even hoping that the enforcement of these new boundaries will be the thing he needs to make realizations and change his behavior... but I know that's ultimately out of my control.

Very much understand Hashbrown. I think you'll really like SWOE, others have really liked I Hate You Don't Leave Me. I read SWOE myself, and another book I mention frequently is The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. It doesn't talk about personality disorders or BPD, but it does describe very well the anger and the control, the verbal abuse. Which is very sobering.

I get it that you hope the boundaries will jar him into changing his behavior. This is so common! I've read many times that boundaries are for ourselves, to protect ourselves from abusive behavior, but I myself sometimes 'hope' a boundary will make them rethink..but that's putting the power into their hands, which we know is problematic on several levels.

[PeteWitsend]

I've read a different BPD book at the beginning of the relationship, but I've heard of these many times and should give them a read.

I went into our relationship with eyes wide open. I don't think I was in denial about the reality of his BPD... but maybe I'm in denial over being where I now am. Maybe it's the same thing.

It's so hard to see him operate in -- and receive the effects of -- this new place he's gotten to, so full of hatred and anger. As you said, all I want to do is love him. Even now. I catch myself even hoping that the enforcement of these new boundaries will be the thing he needs to make realizations and change his behavior... but I know that's ultimately out of my control.

if you want to love him, then do so knowing he's not capable of providing that love back.

He's always going to be entirely concerned with his needs.

You need to decide what you want.  And remember, You're not responsible for his behavior, and you're not going to be able to change him.  That's his decision alone.

If you want to maintain a relationship with him, you have to understand it's always going to be a one way street. 

[PeteWitsend]

I think you should also go back to the beginning of the thread and ask yourself "why shouldn't I detach?"

Why are you so focused on this person's problems?

They seem like a very toxic person who will only drag you down, and it seems like you recognize that.  So what about you makes you want to stay?  Hope they'll turn into something they're not?  Does it make you feel needed? 

[Pensive1]

hashbrown111822,

I thought I'd add a comment here, in case you might find it helpful.

The first thing I'll mention - probably the most helpful book I've come across about dealing with a BPD partner or family member is "When Hope Is Note Enough" by Bonn Dobbs (a pseudonym). It's written by a guy with a spouse who has BPD (plus a young daughter with BPD symptoms). The concepts in the book are drawn in part from DBT and Mentalization Therapy. What the book advises may not be everyone's cup of tea. I personally found it extremely helpful, and when I applied what he was advising, I found it worked. Though by that point, my relationship with my BPD ex was too far gone (she had already monkeybranched). I wish I'd read that book much earlier. Though I'll add - it can't solve everything. The author used to run a forum based on the book, and he shut it down in the midst of the pandemic, referring cryptically to the stresses that the pandemic caused for people with BPD (perhaps related to intolerance of being alone). I've thought that it may well be that his relationship with his spouse fell apart, and that's why he ended the forum. Nonetheless, I found that what he was advising helped me a lot in dealing with someone with BPD.

I'm glad that you've got good boundaries around violence.

As a minor aside, I'll mention that data from randomized controlled trials suggests that Schema Therapy might be the most effective approach for treatment of BPD, with perhaps twice the symptom reduction of DBT. But perhaps that's kind of useless to mention, since it's almost impossible to find a well trained schema therapist who is taking new patients in the U.S.

re: "This HAS HAPPENED with him before -- both when he got sober, and when he hit a rock bottom around the time we met. He reflected, wanted to change, got diagnosed, started therapy, started meds, etc. I know I can't hold out for that though."

I want to comment on this, because I recognize something here from personal experience. I'm a recovering alcoholic/addict myself (38 years clean), and I struggle with my own mental health issues - cPTSD from a traumatic childhood. The main consequence of that is a certain kind of numbing out/dissociation, as well as various forms of avoidance (essentially, these are dysfunctional approaches to avoid pain; drinking can serve that purpose as well).

Anyway - when my life crashed due to my own mental health issues (i.e., my wife divorced me and I lost my job because I'd become unproductive), I did what your partner did - I worked hard on myself, engaged heavily with therapy and AA, and ended up becoming much healthier and very present and sensitive and loving. And people were drawn to that. I got together with a new partner (who unfortunately, had BPD). The problem was that over time (a period of years), I began drifting back to old habits of thought and behavior. This really upset/frustrated my partner. And she had some legitimate grievances - though of course her BPD made everything in our relationship ten times harder. But one could say that what she saw at first from me was false advertising. I never get bitter/cruel, but I get numbed out and hypervigilant and go into a mode of "flight" from anything that could be painful. Over time I've done a lot more therapy, and I have continued to slowly heal my own mental health issues. But for someone with major issues, remaining in a stable, healthy space in perpetuity takes a ton of work.

I'll add that I hope that your guy, for his own sake, is continuing to go to recovery meetings. I still go to AA meetings and have an AA sponsor, even after all these years, and even though I never have a desire to use. I find participation in AA really helps me stay sane and "emotionally sober", and to be a better human being.

[hashbrown111822]

Thank you all for the responses!

Jaded, I feel you! Only time will tell.

Pete, I definitely do need to delineate what I want. He's tricky, because he is a mild/atypical Borderline. He actually has been able to exercise accountability and empathy for others -- he actually isn't *always* concerned with his own needs. He has a high chance of "recovery," according to his therapist. I will say that those positive behaviors were present when he was really active in AA and DBT, and obviously, committing to anything long-term for a Borderline is difficult.

I think I want to stay because he is truly everything I've wanted to find. We loved the same things, hated the same things, wanted the same type of future... we had the same interests and aesthetics, the same favorite meal, we drove the same cars. He challenged me and kept me evolving and growing like no one I've ever known. He didn't complete me, but he was an extension of me. He made my whole world brighter. He made everything more. And, I think that for myself, I'm a very unemotional/depressive type person. He allowed me to experience and access emotions that I can't access myself. I'd take his emotional ups and downs over my flatline any day. It just made me feel alive instead of numb (this is, of course, something I'm addressing in therapy on my own).

Pensive, thank you for sharing your experience, and congrats on your 38 years. That's no small feat!! I do think where he currently is in his sobriety is going hand-in-hand with his BPD symptoms. He told me in our last conversation that he was planning on going to a meeting that night, but otherwise hadn't been going since the breakup. Like you, I hope he returns to meetings. They truly were so powerful for him, as they are for so many others. He went to AA before he was ever diagnosed BPD -- and he did that on his own. I think AA holds a lot of the keys to him healing from the place he's in.

[ChooseHappiness]

I think I want to stay because he is truly everything I've wanted to find. We loved the same things, hated the same things, wanted the same type of future... we had the same interests and aesthetics, the same favorite meal, we drove the same cars. He challenged me and kept me evolving and growing like no one I've ever known. He didn't complete me, but he was an extension of me. He made my whole world brighter. He made everything more.

I'd be very careful with this, as I think we've all experienced this -- and seen it suddenly disappear. I had the exact same experience with my ex, where we loved all the same things and wanted the exact same future -- until she started falling in love with other people and totally shifted her identity to want what they wanted.

I've read in numerous books now that people with BPD will often figure out what you want and then reflect it back to you, which makes you think they are THE ONE and you can never find that sort of love anywhere else. But they often have no real attachment to those things -- it's just a phase in their ever-shifting identity (or perhaps identities).

Perhaps your situation is different and you truly are a genuine match for each other. But I recommend an abundance of caution about this type of thinking when it comes to someone with BPD.

I hope things work out for the best for you.

[hashbrown111822]

ChooseHappiness,

I also have seen this on the boards and elsewhere -- I know I probably sound like I'm just in denial, but we were friends for a while before dating, and most of these similarities I found about out at random. Many of them were present in his life even before he met me.

I'm sure there were other things that he did mirror, especially about plans for our future together. I do think he's so unsure of who he is right now, that he could go in a completely different direction with his life and these similarities could dissipate either way.

Thank you also for your encouragement. I hope that regardless of what happens with us, he stays safe and ends up being okay.

[PeteWitsend]

...

Pete, I definitely do need to delineate what I want. He's tricky, because he is a mild/atypical Borderline. He actually has been able to exercise accountability and empathy for others -- he actually isn't *always* concerned with his own needs. He has a high chance of "recovery," according to his therapist. ...

Do you have first hand knowledge of what his therapist said, or is that just what he told you?  I'd be careful here; in my experience, "therapy" is more of a game to them, not a method of self improvement or help. 

And his threat of suicide, and threats to put his fist through the wall, and blaming you for that... those don't sound like a mild case. 

Be careful!  And don't jump to conclusions or think you have a good understanding of what he's like, based on your time with him.  There could be a lot more bad things he's been concealing that only come out when the dynamic between you changes and he feels secure.  I think we've all seen how things can change dramatically within the confines of commitment with a pwBPD, especially if/when kids are part of the relationship. 

[hashbrown111822]

I haven't spoken to his therapist myself, no -- it was purely what he told me. He did get better and better throughout our relationship... started out with episodes at least every other week, and it got to maybe once a month? I have wondered many times how much he tells his therapist, or how honest he is. It could definitely just be another ruse.

And very fair -- suicidal ideation was definitely one of his stronger symptoms. It happened often, him saying "I want to kill myself." He said that *I* make him want to kill himself exactly twice. The first time was prolly a year ago.

One of the biggest points of confusion for me during this breakup has been how little he seems like "himself," or at least the person I thought I knew. There are many angry/non-empathetic behaviors that I've seen from him in the last month and a half, that I've NEVER seen from him in the last 2 years. It makes me wonder if he's suddenly changed now with new behaviors, or if those parts had always been in there. I have no idea.

Thank god he doesn't want kids!

[Pensive1]

Two minor comments....

I don't think there's any generalization that can be made about people with BPD and therapy. Some do, essentially, treat it as a game, or resist doing the necessary work, or go into it just seeking sympathy from a therapist, etc. But others genuinely want to heal, and many do improve greatly.

re: "or if those parts had always been in there"

Schema therapy conceptualizes people as containing different modes - and some of these modes reflect temporary emotional–cognitive–behavioral states resulting from the activation of early maladaptive schemas (problematic conceptualizations about the world learned in childhood). For example, one of these modes is an Angry Child mode. And that often comes to the fore in BPD rages. Schema therapy seeks to grow the Healthy Adult mode, with the Healthy Adult mode providing space for the Vulnerable Child mode and setting limits for the Angry Child mode.

Another view, coming from the theory of structural dissociation of the personality, holds that patients with complex trauma-related disorders (such as BPD) may exhibit a division of their personality into different parts, which include apparently normal parts as well as emotional parts that are fixated in traumatic experience. One aim of therapy is to integrate these parts.

I think these parts-based views are onto something valid. I think in the case of your guy, those parts were always there.

[hashbrown111822]

Pensive,

Super interesting stuff here. I don't know much about schema therapy, but this is helpful. It's scary to think those parts were always there -- but I can definitely imagine that being the case. Because he hadn't faced an existential crisis like this yet since I've known him, it makes sense that his response is something I'm unfamiliar with.

It also makes me scared to think that -- should we ever return to each other -- he could change completely in his response to new and unfamiliar stimuli. Say, for example, we bought a house together years in the future, or got married. He could turn into a completely different person then too. I guess that's the risk you take knowingly getting into a relationship with someone who has BPD. What a debilitating illness.

[tina7868]

It also makes me scared to think that -- should we ever return to each other -- he could change completely in his response to new and unfamiliar stimuli. Say, for example, we bought a house together years in the future, or got married. He could turn into a completely different person then too. I guess that's the risk you take knowingly getting into a relationship with someone who has BPD. What a debilitating illness.

You bring up a valid point that is important to consider. At the end of the day, there will always be this uncertainty, and it`s best to go into things with your eyes wide open to the implications of his condition. The following article, which I like to refer back to myself, summarizes many of the aspects of being in a relationship (be it a romantic relationship or not) with a pwBPD : https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship . What are your thoughts?

Remember that you yourself have a lot to offer in a relationship. You bring to the table genuine love and care and understanding, the commitment and loyalty to work through challenges and still be a cheerleader to your partner. That is special!

[hashbrown111822]

Tina, absolutely. I've read this article and agree whole-heartedly. There were many of these qualities that I was successful at rendering in our relationship... others I struggled with, but we're all human and we're all trying our best.

I still find myself wanting to give it another go, especially with all I've learned in this process. I know I'm a genuine, loving, valuable partner. I hope I get the chance to try again.

[Pensive1]

Hashbrown,

In case it might be helpful for understanding, here are some good videos on anger modes in schema therapy.
Angry Child mode
Angry Protector mode
Bully Attack mode
Schema therapy was first developed as a treatment for BPD, but is now used for a broad set of mental health conditions.

[SinisterComplex]

I haven't spoken to his therapist myself, no -- it was purely what he told me. He did get better and better throughout our relationship... started out with episodes at least every other week, and it got to maybe once a month? I have wondered many times how much he tells his therapist, or how honest he is. It could definitely just be another ruse.

And very fair -- suicidal ideation was definitely one of his stronger symptoms. It happened often, him saying "I want to kill myself." He said that *I* make him want to kill himself exactly twice. The first time was prolly a year ago.

One of the biggest points of confusion for me during this breakup has been how little he seems like "himself," or at least the person I thought I knew. There are many angry/non-empathetic behaviors that I've seen from him in the last month and a half, that I've NEVER seen from him in the last 2 years. It makes me wonder if he's suddenly changed now with new behaviors, or if those parts had always been in there. I have no idea.

Thank god he doesn't want kids!

The person you thought you knew treat like an alias, or a character from a movie. Just like movie stars are different people in real life vs who they portray in movies that is very similar to those with BPD. The person who you think you know is playing a role or you are only seeing a glimpse of them...not the whole thing.

Those parts were probably always there and have always been there.

Do not overanalyze or overthink it...use the information presented to you and go from there. Don't do the what if stuff and it will be easier for you to deal with things.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[PeteWitsend]

Two minor comments....

I don't think there's any generalization that can be made about people with BPD and therapy. Some do, essentially, treat it as a game, or resist doing the necessary work, or go into it just seeking sympathy from a therapist, etc. But others genuinely want to heal, and many do improve greatly.

...

True.  I did qualify it with "in my experience," but I agree it's unfair to generalize. 

I am curious what the actual success rate is for pwBPD in therapy.  I've read many comments here that it's not very good.

I found one article that reported a 95% improvement rate with 6-12 months of DBT, but it was a small sample size, and "improvement" was defined as a reduction in suicidal ideation and self harm.  That's really good, but is that enough improvement to make a relationship viable, or produce the sort of partner we believed we had?  I imagine many here would still find their r/s intolerable even if the BPD partner did improve

[Pensive1]

I am curious what the actual success rate is for pwBPD in therapy. 

That's a good question.

A recent article (Soloff, 2021) notes:
"Two landmark studies, the Collaborative Longitudinal Personality Disorders Study (CLPS) and the McLean Study of Adult Development (MSAD) reported diagnostic remission in 85% to 93% of BPD subjects over a 10-year follow-up period (Gunderson et al., 2011; Zanarini, Frankenburg, Reich, & Fitzmaurice, 2010a)....
High rates of diagnostic remission in longitudinal studies have generated an undue optimism about the good prognosis of patients with BPD. This perspective must be tempered by the very low rates of good psychosocial outcome or recovery. Remission of diagnostic criteria does not predict good psychosocial outcome in our studies. High rates of sustained treatment utilization, including psychotherapies, years after diagnostic and symptomatic remission, support the validity of this conclusion."

Outcomes appear to vary considerably depending on study details and treatment type. Here is the most comprehensive study I know of, examining efficacy of different types of treatment: Setkowski et al, 2023.

Though more data is needed for this to be definitive, schema therapy seems to perform the best (of the alternatives examined in that meta-analysis). Unfortunately, it's not that widely available in the U.S., in part because of the emphasis on short, financially-efficient treatment modalities in the U.S.

I agree that based on what I've read and seen personally, full recovery appears somewhat rare. But it does occasionally occur. Perhaps the most famous case is Dr. Marsha Linehan, the therapist who developed DBT. When she was younger, she definitely qualified for a diagnosis of BPD, and it was very severe. Another interesting case is this woman, who does recovery coaching for people with BPD. I first became aware of her after a therapist who treats BPD patients wrote about her (noting how much he'd learned from her, etc.).

[hashbrown111822]

Pensive, schema therapy is fascinating. Thank you for these links!

Sinister, well said. I had a friend (whose ex also has BPD) tell me today to treat it like a death. The person who he was/who I thought he was has died. She said "Treating it like a death will allow you to accept that there wasn’t anything you could do differently... because there wasn't." It helped to hear.

For anyone else reading this and wondering about therapy success rates -- I don't have hard numbers for you, but I can tell you that I saw notable improvement in my ex throughout our time together. He had the ability to be concerned with someone else's needs. He was able to experience guilt, regret, and remorse, and he could hold accountability. I think the key is just getting them to go, and go often. I have hope that, as long as he continues at least having therapy, that he isn't completely lost.

[ThanksForPlaying]

Sinister, well said. I had a friend (whose ex also has BPD) tell me today to treat it like a death. The person who he was/who I thought he was has died. She said "Treating it like a death will allow you to accept that there wasn’t anything you could do differently... because there wasn't." It helped to hear.

I've found the death analogy to be helpful in several ways.

As someone said on another thread, when someone dies, you don't expect yourself to NEVER think about them again.  It's natural to still have thoughts about them.  The goal is to get to a place where the thoughts don't affect your ability to function and thrive.  It's ok to allow memories and sadness sometimes, but we should eventually be able to handle these thoughts in a healthy way.

Also from another thread - we can grieve the relationship in the same way we grieve a death.  Grief has been studied for hundreds of years.  There's hard science behind the mental process.  It's not easy, but we know it's something that humans have always had to deal with.  We're not alone in that.

[Pensive1]

On the "full recovery" question, I thought I'd add a couple tidbits. Here and here I see some individuals who (based on their self-reports) appear to have fully recovered.

I was also thinking of my best friend. When I first got to know her, over two decades ago, she had severe DID. And she certainly had some very strong borderline traits. People with DID very often are diagnosed with comorbid BPD, and looking at BPD criteria, I see that my friend would appear to have qualified for a BPD diagnosis. I've also seen it mentioned that people with DID never fully recover, though they can improve.

The thing is....my friend is fully recovered. She no longer has DID (is fully integrated) and no longer displays any BPD traits. She's highly functional, and actually quite happy in life. It took over a decade of very determined hard work with a therapist.

When I see stories of full recovery from BPD, the commonality appears to be a determination to recover, and years of hard work in therapy.

[hashbrown111822]

These stories of recovery give me hope... I really do think t's possible.

Thank you everyone for all your responses so far. I thought I'd give an update on my own situation... It's been over a week now since I had that phone call with my ex. I haven't heard from him. I want desperately to hear from him.

I know I can't be the one to reach out and move the boundary I set, because I know then that it'll just show him that if he emotionally abuses me, I'll pout for a week, and then I'll get over it and he can continue to act however he wants. I know that isn't healthy or safe for me.

I find myself ruminating a lot on that phone call, and if I said the "right" things. I thought it was clear that he could reach out if he got to a different place... but now I'm not sure. I told him I couldn't have someone in my life who disrespected me so blatantly. I asked him not to talk to me. I didn't explicitly ask for an apology, or make it super clear that I would actually love to talk to him, just as long as the respect was there.

I crave an apology. He was so good at them during the relationship. I also, obviously, want to talk to him. With all I continue to learn about BPD, I just find myself wanting to put new knowledge and tools to use, and repair things.

He still has me blocked on Instagram, which he did during his rage with me on the phone. We have a lot of mutual friends, but no one has seen him out recently (since the breakup, it was a priority of his to go out and network, as his career is in that kinda scene). We also frequent the same local bar, which has a weekly rooftop pool party on Sundays. I saw he actually RSVP'd to go this past weekend. I went... he wasn't there.

I'd love to think he might actually be taking a beat to do some internal work. But I can't count on that. I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place... I don't want to reach out, and I don't want to move on.

[Cluster Beeline]

We've all been in your situation where we panic about losing our pwBPD and time compresses to the point where minutes seem like weeks. But forcing the issue is a recipe for disaster--even more so in your case since you ex is so emotionally fragile.

From what you have related, it is beyond doubt that your ex is demanding emotional breathing space from you. He needs to deal with his issues on his own. Of course he will backslide occasionally and fall back towards your caretaking. He seems to struggle to express himself rationally, but his emotional communication is clear as a bell: back off.

BPD relationships are paradoxical in that if you do everything right then you may just prolong your own misery. If you do everything wrong--in this case foist your presence upon him--you will pretty quickly burn all your bridges to him, let alone possibly provoke a drug relapse. Since his BPD is mild, there is a possibility of a longer term relationship, but it must be carefully nurtured by you. But if you are looking for marriage and children, then you need to be really careful here.

One week of no contact is nothing, although it feels like a lifetime in these situations. I laugh at myself now, but seven years ago I went through the same thing with my first BPD. I burnt my bridge and have not seen her in six years--which is a result I am very happy with because that entire relationship was a no go. She had severe BPD.

If your relationship is to be saved, you must give him space by learning to curtail your own need to caretake. Seeking him out in social situations could be emotionally destabilizing to him.

BPD's are great during idealization, which metaphorically can be called spring and summer. But when the signs of autumn roll around, in other words devaluation, you must back away. Contacting them during their periods of winter is like trying to plant a tomato plant in January. It's impossible and you will only hurt yourself and them by trying to force the issue.

He may need many months of healing before he is ready to contact you. These cycles are inevitable and should not be resisted. You should avoid setting internal deadlines and counting weeks.

I am currently in hiatus with my second, more mild BPD. In fact I enjoy these down times since I get motivated to work out, take cold showers, etc, etc. She will eventually call when spring re-enters her heart and things will be great for a certain period of time. We have been going through these cycles together for six years now and so when I feel her signs of dysregulation, I back away as calmly as possible to give her the space to deal with her internal emotional turmoil. Of course we do not live together or have children, so I am free to withdraw at the drop of a hat. I have learned the hard way that contacting her during her emotional winters is a catastrophe for both of us.

[once removed]

I told him it was unacceptable for him to treat me like that, and if he wasn't in a place to make a significant change and get serious help, I needed him out of my life. I asked him not to contact me, but we agreed to not block each other's numbers (as he said, "just in case"). It was understood that if he gets to a different place, he could reach back out.
...
I know I can't be the one to reach out and move the boundary I set, because I know then that it'll just show him that if he emotionally abuses me, I'll pout for a week, and then I'll get over it and he can continue to act however he wants. I know that isn't healthy or safe for me.

I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place... I don't want to reach out, and I don't want to move on.

herein lies the dilemma.

did you ask him not to contact you because you wanted to give yourself the space to detach from the relationship? or did you do it to get his attention? get him to fight for you/the relationship.

because if its the former, all you really need to do is sit through it. grieve it. the intensity of the feelings will wane (and come and go).

if its the latter, youre ultimately just trying to send a message that you were trying to send during the relationship, that youre hoping will now be heard. 

i understand. i didnt want to reach out, or move on, either.

but it will be easier for you, as youre able, to put all of your eggs in one basket or the other, in spite of yourself or otherwise. hoping that he will not take "do not contact me" as an answer wont help you detach from or repair the relationship, whichever way you decide to go.

But I can't count on that.

invest in what you can count on.

[hashbrown111822]

Cluster Beeline, thank you for this re-frame. I don't want to force anything, and I do want him to have the ability to deal more effectively with his own issues. I know I have work ahead of me to heal my own unhealthy contributions to our relationship. I'm trying my hardest to let time pass me by without counting.

I do obviously wish for the relationship to return, and for something long term... which feels increasingly like a pipe dream. Neither of us wants kids, thankfully.

I've been with him through one "winter" already... although the difference with that period of time is that he turned toward me, instead of away from me, when it got hard. I guess maybe this is the first "winter" in regards to me/us, so figuring out how to handle it has been difficult. He's always needed MORE love, never less. In that final phone call, he told me that he wanted to talk to me, and he wanted me in his life. It was me who asked him not to contact me, and that he couldn't be in my life if he was going to treat me so poorly. 

I think what terrifies me is the possibility that he won't ever return. I know many pwBPD do, and they recycle, and the whole thing starts over. But I know that others with BPD just don't. And I'm scared that because I said not to contact me, he just won't. Maybe it'll be fear or shame that keeps him from doing it, I don't know.

What's your experience been like with your current partner? Did you know she was going to come back after the first "winter"? How long are her winters?


Once Removed, I asked him not to contact me because I told him that I can't allow anyone that I keep around me to treat me so poorly. I didn't say the phrase "emotionally abusive," but that's what he became. I wouldn't allow anyone else to treat me like that, and I wasn't going to make an exception for him. I told him that I loved him, I never wanted to break up, I always wanted to work through things with him - I never wanted any of this to happen. He did say, "What are you asking of me?" I told him that I understood I couldn't ask for much, because I can't make decisions for him. But... I said I kept hoping he'd have some kind of reflective moment (like he had twice in the past, once when he got sober and the other when he started therapy) where he would come to terms with the things he'd done, chose to heal, and become a better man. I told him I hoped he'd change - go to AA again, get more therapy, whatever.

So no, I didn't want space from him... I don't even want to detach. I'm the type to want to work through something, alongside someone. I do wish he'd fight for the relationship, and that this boundary will give him consequences/catalyze change... but ultimately I think I told him not to contact me because I felt like I had to. I felt like the abuse would just escalate.

hoping that he will not take "do not contact me" as an answer wont help you detach from or repair the relationship, whichever way you decide to go.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

[Cluster Beeline]

Her winters vary. It's all such a paradoxical situation. We met on a dating site when she was in her late 30's. I was working in a city two hours from my home. I wanted a girlfriend there but was not looking for anything serious. She was twenty years younger than me, visually stunning with a perfect Slavic body type, and had never had a relationship last more than three months.

Four months in, and after a spectacular vacation together, she added fresh photos to her dating profile. This made me happy in the sense that it clarified that we were just sex buddies and not anything serious. Several months later, my job became unbearable, and I decided to move back home. I thought she would be as disposable as my rented flat.

She begged me not to breakup, which I understood to mean that I had to wait until she monkey branched to someone new. I found this reasonable so we continued long distance. We made it to our anniversary.  Just before a trip, I caught her on a date and the resulting turmoil eventually broke my laissez-faire attitude. I got hooked just as winter set in. Another way to look at it is that I am a bit avoidant and that her being in a new relationship made it safe for me to pursue her. To my great surprise I had underestimated her and found myself once again addicted to an emotionally devastating situation.

But like clockwork, her three month limit arrived and they broke up. All during their relationship she would wildly gyrate between blocking me and calling me whenever they had a fight. She eventually invited me to come stay with her after the final fight (totally her fault btw) with her soon-to-be-ex while they were still on vacation together.

What followed was two months of horror as it was just a rebound. All through our relationship she devalued me about my age. I am a confident person and being in great health a physical condition, I had zero insecurities about my age. Having a partner 20 years younger is a status symbol to most men. I told her several times that this line of attack was futile and would never work on me.

In any case a long winter of six months set in. During this time I discovered Cluster B and BPD theory and realized what I was involved with. If my first BPD was like heroin, BPD2 was more like a mild methadone. She has no substance abuse, suicidal or other destructive character traits. She does have a shattered sense of self and engages in strong cycles of idealization and devaluation. She has strong black and white thinking and refuses any hint of nuance.

She contacted me after six months of dating men closer to her own age. Each of her adventures had ended in disaster as she swung into wild devaluations with them just after a month or so. She promised she was past the age difference and in fact she never mentioned it again. We got back together and it lasted three years--at long distance. Despite her beauty, she is impossible to be around too much. Even after a few days I would be counting the hours until my train trip back home.

Last April the signs of autumn reappeared. She found a guy that lived near her and had the same cultish tendencies and she started devaluing our long distance situation. I made an error in clinging on and got dumped for him a few months later.

Of course their relationship was a catastrophe and so three months later I got an apology text with an invitation to restart. We made it six months but I started again sensing strong signs of autumn. I also had a health scare (which may have triggered her coldness) and so this time I broke up with her. It's been two months and I expect (hope) her winter to last much longer, perhaps a year or so. 

Perhaps what's different in my case is that I have no illusions of this ever becoming a stable, normal relationship and so I resist trying to push things into that mould. These breaks give her time and space to reset her troubled mind so as to sprout the green shoots of idealization. At this point all I want is to harvest her idealization while avoiding her devaluation. She of course wants the opposite, to hook me with her idealization so that I will suffer through her devaluations.

Obviously these sorts of relationships suffer from a sort of entropy. The longer they go, the shorter the periods of summer and the longer the winters drag on. The secret to success is to go on your own personal vacation to emotionally sunnier climes while they are stuck in their winter. Your absence will paradoxically pull them back into your orbit--at least for a few cycles.