"How could you pick something else over me?!"

[usagi]

Good morning forum,

I'm feeling a bit low and fearful at the moment.  Yesterday turned out to be an emotional day for my partner.  She found out that her ex, the father of her son, did not have cancer spread beyond his colon.  He had surgery to remove the portion of colon with the cancer and it seems he's in the clear for the moment.  After work my partner and I were going to get together to walk the dogs and go out to dinner.  I still had a few things I needed to get done at the house we're moving out of and mentioned it to her.  She suggested we both go together to get it done quickly so we could enjoy the rest of the evening together.

On the ride there she picked up where she has left off so many times asking about my hobby and why I prioritized that over our family.  I said that last summer I wanted to attend a workshop and hadn't been to a full one in some time and it was something I wanted to do.  Later in the year I was feeling like she wanted me to quite altogether, being forced to choose between that and having a family.  She calmly explained that she never said I had to quite, which is completely not true.

When we got to the house we started working to finish getting the last few items out.  By the end my partner was in tears.  She said it was such a good home for our family.  On the drive home the sadness turned to splitting.  "How could you possibly choose that stuff over us?!"  When we got back to my place she said she didn't feel like going out to dinner anymore.

This morning I'm getting texts from her saying that what happened a few weeks ago (me getting upset about her reaction to me having a drink after my hobby was done) may have completely broken us.  She's saying that she doesn't want to be in a "dating" relationship and wants her partner to be living with her.  She wants a house and a family not a boyfriend.

She's said all of this before.  Last time was when I had my colonoscopy.  At the time I was living in a VRBO on my own because she asked me to leave.  She said that she felt like she was pretending to be my wife while helping me at the hospital and that she couldn't be with me if we were going to live separately.

This is part of our cycle.  Something happens, or doesn't, and she gets overwhelmed by abandonment and emotions, then states that this isn't working for her and that we're done.  I know that when she starts feeling better she'll want to be with me again but it's always hard for me to hear these fears.  I've worked so hard to keep this relationship together.  We do have a very strong connection but sometimes I feel like I can't bear the burden of her emotional needs and fears.  It's made for so many sleepless nights and worry filled days.

I left her a love note and a rose on her dashboard this morning.  Now I'm trying to get some work done to distract myself from my own fears.  I'm concerned though that my leaving the note and flower might somehow feel invalidating to her.

Rationally, I feel like I really needed my own place right now.  We kept getting into these situations where she would demand I leave.  Since we were about to move into an apartment together I needed to have a place where I didn't feel I needed to leave whenever she was upset with me.  Now she's saying that action might have been the kiss of death to our relationship.

I'm not sure how to support her in this situation.  I can't just break my lease and move back with her.  That wouldn't really fix things.  I feel like she does want me to just tell her "I'll never go back to that mean old hobby ever again and want to spend all my waking moments with you!".  That's not a solution either.  I know the answer is validation but how?

Thank you as always forum.  This is gonna be a long day.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[jaded7]

Good morning forum,

I'm feeling a bit low and fearful at the moment.  Yesterday turned out to be an emotional day for my partner.  She found out that her ex, the father of her son, did not have cancer spread beyond his colon.  He had surgery to remove the portion of colon with the cancer and it seems he's in the clear for the moment.  After work my partner and I were going to get together to walk the dogs and go out to dinner.  I still had a few things I needed to get done at the house we're moving out of and mentioned it to her.  She suggested we both go together to get it done quickly so we could enjoy the rest of the evening together.

On the ride there she picked up where she has left off so many times asking about my hobby and why I prioritized that over our family.  I said that last summer I wanted to attend a workshop and hadn't been to a full one in some time and it was something I wanted to do.  Later in the year I was feeling like she wanted me to quite altogether, being forced to choose between that and having a family.  She calmly explained that she never said I had to quite, which is completely not true.

When we got to the house we started working to finish getting the last few items out.  By the end my partner was in tears.  She said it was such a good home for our family.  On the drive home the sadness turned to splitting.  "How could you possibly choose that stuff over us?!"  When we got back to my place she said she didn't feel like going out to dinner anymore.

This morning I'm getting texts from her saying that what happened a few weeks ago (me getting upset about her reaction to me having a drink after my hobby was done) may have completely broken us.  She's saying that she doesn't want to be in a "dating" relationship and wants her partner to be living with her.  She wants a house and a family not a boyfriend.

She's said all of this before.  Last time was when I had my colonoscopy.  At the time I was living in a VRBO on my own because she asked me to leave.  She said that she felt like she was pretending to be my wife while helping me at the hospital and that she couldn't be with me if we were going to live separately.

This is part of our cycle.  Something happens, or doesn't, and she gets overwhelmed by abandonment and emotions, then states that this isn't working for her and that we're done.  I know that when she starts feeling better she'll want to be with me again but it's always hard for me to hear these fears.  I've worked so hard to keep this relationship together.  We do have a very strong connection but sometimes I feel like I can't bear the burden of her emotional needs and fears.  It's made for so many sleepless nights and worry filled days.

I left her a love note and a rose on her dashboard this morning.  Now I'm trying to get some work done to distract myself from my own fears.  I'm concerned though that my leaving the note and flower might somehow feel invalidating to her.

Rationally, I feel like I really needed my own place right now.  We kept getting into these situations where she would demand I leave.  Since we were about to move into an apartment together I needed to have a place where I didn't feel I needed to leave whenever she was upset with me.  Now she's saying that action might have been the kiss of death to our relationship.

I'm not sure how to support her in this situation.  I can't just break my lease and move back with her.  That wouldn't really fix things.  I feel like she does want me to just tell her "I'll never go back to that mean old hobby ever again and want to spend all my waking moments with you!".  That's not a solution either.  I know the answer is validation but how?

Thank you as always forum.  This is gonna be a long day.

The struggle to make sense of things Usagi.

I can really sense the dynamics here, and I can see the confusion. I recall the many issues your hobby had caused in the relationship (for her) and here is the problem again with your hobby. It's almost like it's a go-to for her, when she feels some abandonment fear or frustration.

And the rewriting history is here too, about asking you to quit the hobby. That's one of the things I found most confusing in my relationship.....I absolutely know we did/said 'x', but she would cling to a different narrative, even when I would point out that what she was saying was not true, with facts.

There's a lot of 'managing' with these relationships, isn't there? Managing her fears, her mistaken beliefs about you, your intentions, what was said or done. Trying to guess what the right thing to do is.

And then we have to manage ourselves and emotions in response to a confusing dynamic.

[usagi]

HI jaded,

Thanks for the reply.

It is a heavy lift for sure.  My expectation based on what I've heard from folks on the forum is that over time that lift can get a little lighter with practice on not JADEing and being more empathetic.  I feel I have to be acutely aware of my partner's emotional state at all times and am constantly trying to respond as needed to help her regulate.

I believe she's stuck on this because, quite frankly, this is the only thing I make time for myself anymore.  I've let a lot of other interests and activities fall to the wayside in order to focus more time on my family.  But now I'm being accused of breaking things and that I never really wanted a family in the first place.  Those are painful words.  It isn't true.  I really was hoping to have a family with my partner and her son.  But there has been this constant drama.  If not about our relationship it is her relationship with her son.

I've heard people talk about holding boundaries and eventually the other person sort of relents and accepts it.  I don't feel like I'm seeing that with my partner.  She is just holding fast to this idea that my hobby had killed our relationship.

[kells76]

Kind of a side issue (maybe?) --

Seems like a lot of these escalations happen when the two of you are in the car.

Do you think you and she could find a time, when you're both at baseline, to get some ground rules about car discussions? These car talks don't seem to work for either of you. I wonder if she experiences that, too.

Maybe frame it less as "I won't have any emotional discussion in the car with you" (too rigid) and more as "Babe, I do want to hear more of your feelings about this -- I'm not at my best in the car and I really want to be able to give you 100% of my focus. Where do you think is a good place for us to meet so I can hear you?" (again, maybe not those exact words or length, but more of a coming together/we're on a team/what's your opinion approach).

If the two of you can have an experience of working as a team to resolve this "side issue", it gives her (and you) a different experience than the one that keeps repeating: "why did you choose your hobby over me" "I'll explain it again" "I'm still so sad" = repetition but no resolution.

I get that the "where" and "how" aren't the "what" but it is an opportunity to start brain-wiring a different experience.

[usagi]

Thanks kells,

Not sure how you keep all these details in your mind but I'm thankful.

We have had a lot of conversations in the car, especially recently.  I think they happen mostly when we had been moving stuff from the old to new city.  In those times she's feeling pretty unstable and all of her fears come out.

However one time this happened was on the drive back from my colonoscopy.  I was still sedated and she wanted to talk about how hurt she was we were living apart.  I said that I wasn't really in any condition to talk at that moment but could talk later.  Later turned into a two hour yell/cry fest about how selfish I am.

Constant improvement.  I am admittedly poor at maintaining these boundaries but it is ripe for the picking.  I've tried in the past to get her to hold off on very emotionally charged conversations at night when we are both trying to go to sleep.  It's one of the times she can be the most dysregulated.

[LittleRedBarn]

Being in the car together is a major trigger for me with my husband. We've had some of our worst fights in the car, to the point where I have often felt very unsafe, regardless of whether he is driving or I am.

Someone said to me that when we drive, we are activating a different part of our brains. We've all had the experience of driving a familiar route and suddenly noticing that we're about to miss our exit on the freeway, and we're shocked to realize that we've driven the past ten miles without really registering. When you think how complicated it is to drive a car, taking into account all the other vehicles on the road, driving conditions etc etc, it's incredible that our unconscious mind can do that without any input from our conscious mind. So something weird is happening in our brains when we drive, and we are likely to respond less rationally and more from emotion-mind, which can be a problem if we're with someone with BPD and we're talking about something that we're in conflict about.

My husband and I aren't driving much together at the moment due to circumstances, but when we go back to doing it I think I'm going to have set some boundaries for when one or other of us gets dysregulated.

[usagi]

Thanks LittleRedBarn,

Well....

This morning I got a long list of texts from my partner saying that she just can't go on being with someone who values his hobby over her.  It makes her sick in side to think about that.  She just won't let go of this.  She also said that her son doesn't want to see me.

I'm so crushed.

I haven't even really responded to the text messages.  All I've been able to say is "I'm so sorry".  She keeps saying that I need to make amends for what happened.  I've apologized countless times and made time to focus on her.  I've rearranged my time at my hobby and it's not enough.

I think she's in the middle of a freak out now that she's seeing what it is like to live alone.  At the moment I'm getting the push.

I wouldn't be too surprised if she comes back saying she wants to spend time together.  But the last time she said that she indicated I needed to "have a plan" to make this better first.

I feel so beaten down by this.  She ABSOLUTELY won't let go.

What can I do?

[LittleRedBarn]

Hi usagi

I am so sorry that you are having to go through all this. I can really hear the despair and hopelessness in your post.

What you have written reminds me of something that I read recently about alcoholics - that 'one drink is too many and a million is never enough'. Unless we set boundaries, being in a relationship with a person with BPD means that we give, and give, and give, until there is literally nothing left, and it is still not enough. I know, because this is what I did with my husband. I gave up everything - my family, my friends, all my hobbies and interests, the food I like to eat, my good name, my self-esteem. The list goes on. And it was still never enough.

People with BPD have a big well of emptiness inside of them, and of course they look to their loved ones to fill it. The problem is that, we simply cannot do that. It's just not possible for another person to do this. The person with BPD needs to find a way to create meaning for themselves, to find what Marsha Linehan calls 'a life worth living' without asking us to do it for them.

It seems to me that your wife is asking you to 'cure' her fear of abandonment. The sub-text is "If you really loved me, you would give up your hobby". Whereas the truth is, that if *she* really loved you (which she can't right now, due to her condition and her fears), she would encourage you in your hobby, and be delighted that you have something of your own that gives you meaning and pleasure. I don't suggest you say this to her, because it would just add fuel to the fire. Instead I think you need to focus on looking after yourself.

This is all so, so hard. Can you think of something pleasurable that you can do today, just for you? Something special that can make you feel just a little bit more normal, a little tiny bit happy?

Separating our feelings out from our loved ones feelings is just so hard.

I'm still new here, so feel free to disregard what I say. Hopefully someone more experienced than me will reply to you soon.

[usagi]

Thanks again LittleRedBarn,

It makes me incredibly sad that there really isn't anything I can do to help her overcome her fears.  She's been lashing out at me all day about what happened and that our special bond is broken.  "How could you do this?"

Right now it feels like there is no recovery from this.  I've done everything I can think of and she just seems to be going deeper in this hole.

Thank you for the suggestion about self care.  I'm doing some unpacking at my new place right now but will try to get outside for a while.  I'll also call some friends.

Thank you so much.

[jaded7]

It seems to me that your wife is asking you to 'cure' her fear of abandonment. The sub-text is "If you really loved me, you would give up your hobby". Whereas the truth is, that if *she* really loved you (which she can't right now, due to her condition and her fears), she would encourage you in your hobby, and be delighted that you have something of your own that gives you meaning and pleasure. I don't suggest you say this to her, because it would just add fuel to the fire. Instead I think you need to focus on looking after yourself.

This is all so, so hard. Can you think of something pleasurable that you can do today, just for you? Something special that can make you feel just a little bit more normal, a little tiny bit happy?

Separating our feelings out from our loved ones feelings is just so hard.

Good morning Usagi. I hope you are feeling ok this morning, these feelings are so heavy and confusing and hard.

LRB makes an excellent point for everybody here. A great partner would love for you to have a hobby, would encourage it, and would take joy in your loving it. Isn't that the essence of love, seeing your partner filled with joy and excitement? Of course if it takes over your life and interferes with the relationship it could be a problem, but that's not the case at all for you and your hobby.

We must learn to look after ourselves, very hard to do when we want our partner to feel loved, and what we are doing isn't working. And they tell us what we are thinking/believing, which is almost always something 'bad', and we want them to understand that's not true. But we can't do it, and JADEing only exacerbates the situation.

Separating our feelings from what they are feeling is so hard, precisely because we love them. It can become a very difficult dance.

Hope you are doing ok this morning.

[kells76]

This morning I got a long list of texts from my partner saying that she just can't go on being with someone who values his hobby over her.  It makes her sick in side to think about that.  She just won't let go of this.  She also said that her son doesn't want to see me.

I'm so crushed.

I haven't even really responded to the text messages.  All I've been able to say is "I'm so sorry".  She keeps saying that I need to make amends for what happened.  I've apologized countless times and made time to focus on her.  I've rearranged my time at my hobby and it's not enough.

I think she's in the middle of a freak out now that she's seeing what it is like to live alone.  At the moment I'm getting the push.

I wouldn't be too surprised if she comes back saying she wants to spend time together.  But the last time she said that she indicated I needed to "have a plan" to make this better first.

I feel so beaten down by this.  She ABSOLUTELY won't let go.

What can I do?

Is there something about this time (as compared to other times in the last where she has said similar things) that seems different?

That is to say -- "overreaction" to her inner feelings, without tangible follow through on her end, seems expected. That doesn't make it okay or feel good; it does read as normal for her, though.

Is there something about these latest texts that feels like she will actually do something?

[usagi]

Well...

She said she wanted to talk with me this evening and that she wanted to hear what I had to say.  So I invited her over at 6.  I was going to make dinner and try to have a relaxing get together so we could talk freely.

When she got here she asked if we could get right to it.  We sat down in the back yard, me on the love seat and her on the table top across from me.  She wanted to look me straight on.  She opened by saying "OK I'm listening..."  I started apologizing again for the pain I've caused her and talked some about what I was doing different.  We talked some about the subject of the text messages she had sent and wanted some answers.  I started reading them out loud and talking through my response.  It was a pretty cold conversation.

Finally she stated that either I love my family or this hobby.  I needed to choose right then and there, which will it be.  I said that I'm not quitting my hobby.  She got up and started to leave but came back to try to make her case once more.  Again she made gave me the ultimatum and again I said I wouldn't quit.

From then on it was just talk about how we were going to split up visit time with the dogs and modify plans for an upcoming trip.

Absolutely crushed.  This is all she could see.  Everyday for her knowing that I was going to this hobby was torture.  It was like it was my mistress.  There was no way we could still be together and for me to keep going.  It was too much.

She threw out everything we had because of this.  And I don't really think there's anything I could have done.  Me quitting my hobby is no kind of answer.  I was trying to compartmentalize it.  Wouldn't talk about it around her.  She just knew my schedule and that was it.

From what I understand of people with BPD she may come back and want to talk again.  This is probably far from over.  But the problem remains, if I had actually cheated on her how could she possibly stay with me if I didn't break off the other relationship.

She said that she'd found out there's a dating app for single parents.  She said on the site all the men say that they may not respond quickly because their family comes first.  "That sounds more my speed..."

I abandoned my family for my hobby, as she says.  As absurd a statement that is I still feel responsible.

[EyesUp]

It makes me incredibly sad that there really isn't anything I can do to help her overcome her fears.  

Hi Usagi,

Sorry it's come to this.  Going to back to one of your recent comments (above), I feel it might be helpful to underscore that there are two very true statements there.
1) you're sad
2) you can't do someone else's work for them

In healthy relationships, people can and often do provide support for each other.  Perhaps not always, on everything - but enough to feel mutual respect, value, support...  This dynamic has been absent in your relationship, as it is in so many where BPD is involved.

It's worth noting that you've both enforced boundaries:
- Your gf insisted that you give up something for her
- You held firm and refused to make that choice or compromise something that is important to you

You've both communicated clearly and been honest about how you feel.  That's a good thing.

In a healthy relationship, both partners might take some assurance and confidence that a breakup is absolutely the right choice in this situation.  There's no ambiguity or uncertainty about motivations or circumstances.  As such, both partners are positioned to move forward with clarity.  

However, in BPD relationships, it's generally not so clear - confusion lingers.  A lot of doubt, "what ifs," and ruminating can lead to a recycle.  Often, that cycle is welcomed - until the exact same dynamics play out, again.

My uBPDxw went to the gym 5, sometimes 6x per week.  She'd often explain that she didn't want to take a weekend vacation because she'd miss her favorite class at the gym.  But she hated that I was a cyclist.  "Why do you spend so much time on your bike, away from your family?" (never mind that I typically was on the bike when she was at the gym).   My "hobby" did not end the relationship - a million other things were in the mix, too.  But I was reminded of many of my uBPDxw's irrational and hypocritical demands by your situation.

What I learned the hard way - Much like your comment: I could not help my xw with her fears or any of her feelings, really.  I came to understand, on a profound level, that I could not help her - and that it was not my job to help her - or be her caretaker - and that only she could make the choices and do the work to resolve whatever fears or other feelings that might be troubling her.

Sure, there are small things we can do to avoid triggers and provide validation and use very measured and purposeful language to avoid conflict, etc., etc.  But that's not a mutual, balanced, traditionally "healthy" relationship - is it?

Take care.

[usagi]

Thanks EyesUp,

That's definitely what I've learned from being on this forum.  Even more healthy and stable relationships with folks who have BPD are difficult.  That is to say when you are doing all the hard work of validating and avoiding triggers as best you can it's still tough.

I realized very recently that my partner had been viewing my "overreach" with my hobby as a betrayal.  I might as well have been cheating on her on a regular basis.  If you look at things from that lens, it makes sense she'd ask me to quit.  If my partner herself were cheating I would certainly do the same and would feel justified in my request.  This is no different.  From my side, I wasn't actually cheating.  I tried to make space for my hobby in a reasonable way.  On very rare occasion I stayed later than intended or did some other thing she'd feel was a slight against her.  Then she couldn't take my criticism of how she handled the situation.  I definitely could have handled things better but maybe that's why I can't be with her.

My hobby as a mistress is the best way to view this for me.  But it also means there is no way this could ever work out, as long as she held that view.

I'm so sad about this.  Like others have said, my partner has so many wonderful aspects.  Beautiful, intelligent, spontaneous, caring, extremely loving.  But she just can't get out of her own way on this and there's absolutely nothing I can do.  Giving up my hobby is no solution at all.  I even considered doing this for a short term, like for a year.  But as soon as I'd start back up this would be an issue again, or she'd expect me to stay away for good.

I need to be with someone who supports my needs.  This is one of the few things I do for myself.  I don't spend a lot of time doing it and it's a healthy activity.  The people involved are not toxic.  I share many values with those folks.  I'm not doing anything wrong.  But then again my partner, ex-partner feels the same way.

[jaded7]

Well...

She said she wanted to talk with me this evening and that she wanted to hear what I had to say.  So I invited her over at 6.  I was going to make dinner and try to have a relaxing get together so we could talk freely.

When she got here she asked if we could get right to it.  We sat down in the back yard, me on the love seat and her on the table top across from me.  She wanted to look me straight on.  She opened by saying "OK I'm listening..."  I started apologizing again for the pain I've caused her and talked some about what I was doing different.  We talked some about the subject of the text messages she had sent and wanted some answers.  I started reading them out loud and talking through my response.  It was a pretty cold conversation.

Finally she stated that either I love my family or this hobby.  I needed to choose right then and there, which will it be.  I said that I'm not quitting my hobby.  She got up and started to leave but came back to try to make her case once more.  Again she made gave me the ultimatum and again I said I wouldn't quit.

From then on it was just talk about how we were going to split up visit time with the dogs and modify plans for an upcoming trip.

Absolutely crushed.  This is all she could see.  Everyday for her knowing that I was going to this hobby was torture.  It was like it was my mistress.  There was no way we could still be together and for me to keep going.  It was too much.

She threw out everything we had because of this.  And I don't really think there's anything I could have done.  Me quitting my hobby is no kind of answer.  I was trying to compartmentalize it.  Wouldn't talk about it around her.  She just knew my schedule and that was it.

From what I understand of people with BPD she may come back and want to talk again.  This is probably far from over.  But the problem remains, if I had actually cheated on her how could she possibly stay with me if I didn't break off the other relationship.

She said that she'd found out there's a dating app for single parents.  She said on the site all the men say that they may not respond quickly because their family comes first.  "That sounds more my speed..."

I abandoned my family for my hobby, as she says.  As absurd a statement that is I still feel responsible.

Usagi I'm sorry it has come to this.

I get how you feel responsible, I get how you feel it's your fault.

Having a hobby isn't a crime, it's a good thing. As I said elsewhere, a healthy partner would not demand you quit your hobby, and healthy partner would celebrate you loving something and getting joy out of it. She did the exact opposite. You see the self-centeredness in this?

"When she got here she asked if we could get right to it.  We sat down in the back yard, me on the love seat and her on the table top across from me.  She wanted to look me straight on.  She opened by saying "OK I'm listening..."  I started apologizing again for the pain I've caused her and talked some about what I was doing different.  We talked some about the subject of the text messages she had sent and wanted some answers.  I started reading them out loud and talking through my response.  It was a pretty cold conversation.

Finally she stated that either I love my family or this hobby.  I needed to choose right then and there, which will it be.  I said that I'm not quitting my hobby.  She got up and started to leave but came back to try to make her case once more.  Again she made gave me the ultimatum and again I said I wouldn't quit."

This is so very typical. She had gotten herself to the point where she was going to demand you quit, with force. Calling the 'meeting', skipping the dinner part, starting with "I'm listening...."  which forces you to be in the inferior position. Even sitting up above you and looking you straight in the eye. And you apologized. She needs to be in control here. All of it.

And she wasn't listening. She likely had no intention of really listening. She was waiting for you to do what she wanted, for you to tell her that you are going to quit your hobby. "I'm listening..." really means, tell me what I want you to tell me.

Been there Usagi. The call for the meeting, the "well.....what have you been doing. I haven't heard from you", when she ignored my texts and emails. Sitting down facing me.

And the ultimatum. She's desperately attempting to regain control, with her mind fixed on the hobby being the problem. There is no way you will be able to convince her it's not a problem, that you have the right to have a hobby.

Do you see how controlling and delusional this is? Do you see how giving a loved one an ultimatum this way, over something actually healthy and life-enhancing, is abusive? She even had to come back and try one more time, when the universe of possibilities was wide open to her.......learn to accept your hobby, accept your hobby is something you love and has nothing to do with her, understand you need to have things you enjoy, recognize she has things she enjoys and you don't give her grief for them....on and on and on. But....she couldn't see any of them. There was only one thing, the hobby, and her beliefs about it.

You can't have a real relationship with someone like this Usagi.

[usagi]

Thanks Jaded.

It is validating to hear your experiences.

I have done everything I can in this relationship.  She needed to step up and contribute but instead played the blame game.

There is one more thing I'm thinking about.  It's less for me and more for her son.  I am thinking about telling her about BPD and how it looks a lot like what she's experiencing.  I was the focus of her splitting and harsh treatment but so is he.  And not that I'm not around it'll probably intensify.

He doesn't deserve that.  He's also struggling with his emotions and when she splits on him it's unbelievably invalidating.

If I write to her about this and maybe give her a book to read I'd expect I might not ever see her again.  She may completely ignore it.  But if there's a chance she considers it then maybe?  Not for me but for her son's sake.

[dtkm]

I have been tempted to try to "lead my uBPDh" to water too, but have realized that every other attempt has not worked, so why would it this time.  In theory, we have the best intentions in mind, but if they don't see reality and blame others for all of the hurt in their lives, then, my guess is the same would happen here...and she would use it against you, that you are the "bad" one.  Nothing in their relationship would change, it would just fuel more hatred for you, not allowing her son to speak to you, as she would have more "proof" as to how horrible of a person you are, pining all of this on her.  I have found that it is best to be straight up with my stepdaughter, by saying that I see what she goes through and am here if she needs anything, and thats it.  She has thanked me for this.  You are most likely correct that your wife's outbursts will transition to your stepson, but, there is nothing that you can do, except be there for him (maybe see if he is open to texting with you once a week, just a check in nothing deep, but so he has somewhere to turn if he does need something) and report your wife's actions if they are reportable.  I have often struggled as to why my stepdaughter's mom never fights to keep her daughter home.  I then realized that its because my stepdaughter does not tell her anything about her dad, she continues the rhetoric that her father is amazing, then sadly walks to her room after she is yelled at for eating dinner at the table with the other kids and I, when he is splitting.  I was talking to a good friend once, whose son's dad is a narcist.  I asked her how she was able to transition to her son being alone with him when they separated.  She told me that her only option was to let go and let them create their own relationship, whatever that meant, with her son knowing that she was always there no matter the day or the hour, if her son needed him.     

[EyesUp]

There is one more thing I'm thinking about.  It's less for me and more for her son.  I am thinking about telling her about BPD and how it looks a lot like what she's experiencing.  I was the focus of her splitting and harsh treatment but so is he.  And not that I'm not around it'll probably intensify...

If I write to her about this and maybe give her a book to read I'd expect I might not ever see her again.  She may completely ignore it.  But if there's a chance she considers it then maybe?  Not for me but for her son's sake.

There are a number of references here that indicate that this generally does not work...  BPD hypersensitivity to criticism, reactivity, deflection, and victim rationalization all tend to eliminate any chance of self reflection or actualization necessary to receive the information in a productive way.

The most likely reaction will not be helpful or satisfying for either of you.

Here's another idea:  Leave a door open to her son. Let him know that you care about him, you'll miss him, and you'll always be glad to hear from him in the future.  If he's able to reach out at any point down the road, even in the distant future, you are uniquely positioned to validate him.

Of course, his mom will hate this and will likely work to undermine it.

Again, sorry you're going through this.

[usagi]

Thank you dtkm and EyesUp,

That's my understanding too.  At this point I honestly have no hope for our relationship.  We have hit an absolute deadlock on the topic of my hobby.  She views it as a betrayal and so wants me to give it up all together.  She feels like I put this above everything else in my life and that's not acceptable.  I know that isn't true and have proven that to her many times, even though she doesn't seem to recognize that.  It's something that I'm passionate about and want to have in my life.  That's my choice.  There doesn't seem to be any room for compromise on this.

I was hoping that learning about BPD might help her son.  She's said that he doesn't want to see me even though he misses me.  I don't know if he'd be open to texting with me.  My partner painted a picture of him being very disappointed with me and my behavior.  At this point I don't hold much hope that I'll have a relationship with him either.

I get the hypersensitivity.  This has been a constant problem in our relationship.  Anytime I'd come to her with something that troubled me about the relationship she would be dismissive and defensive.  Just before the big break-up we were at my place getting ready to go somewhere.  I had a bag of crackers in my hand and was following her down a hallway.  She turned to do something and knocked them out of my hand with her elbow.  She then said to me "you're such a butterfingers."  Later somehow that came up in conversation and I noted that she had actually knocked them out of my hand.  She replied "this isn't about blame."  Even something as mundane as that action is uncomfortable for her to accept.

I feel like there's literally nothing I can do except walk away.

[dtkm]

I think that it totally depends on what you want.  I am no expert, but have lived through more than my fair share of crap from my uBPDh, so def hear where you are coming from.  If it was me, no matter what happens with you and your wife, I would send one text to your stepson saying that you miss him, that you love him and are here for him if he ever wants to chat.  Then I would leave it at that.  That opens the door for him.  Your wife is saying all of these things, that may be her reality, but its not your stepson's reality and that texts shows him that what he is being told about you is not a reality either.  I wouldn't expect a reply, maybe forever, but...maybe he is bored one day and happens upon your text again and decides to respond or maybe that happens during one of her rages.  It shows him you are there with no expectations. 

[usagi]

Thanks dtkm,

I think that's a really good suggestion.  I'd honestly be shocked if he'd actually text with me but stranger things have happened.

From everything I've read about, and to a degree experienced, being in a relationship with someone with BPD is that they may blow up the relationship due to their fears then turn around and make a repair attempt.  But the repair attempt usually comes in the form of complaints about their partner's behavior not about things that they themselves would change.

I wouldn't be surprised if she reaches out to make a repair attempt.  Maybe offering to go to dinner or something like that.  I just don't know if I have bandwidth anymore to listen to her tell me about how awful my behavior is and why don't I just change it so we can be together.

[dtkm]

I wouldn't either, but knowing this may happen, its probably best to use this time now, to get your life/happiness back and to make some decisions.  She most likely won't ever change, and since that is the case, what do you want for your life?  My uBPDh had me served divorce papers...after a bit of a battle, that was not fun, we ultimately decided to drop the divorce and reconcile.  I have had to make some pretty big changes/acceptances in my life to make this life work for the kids and I, but ultimately I do love my husband tremendously and I do believe it is what is best for the kids, though it is not easy. The only way forward that I see for us, is for me to continue forward with life, with no expectations for my h.  My h is sure that I am sleeping with everything that moves, so me leaving the house without him, or with him and other people are around, or he leaving the house and me not being in the kitchen when he returns, etc...meant that I was sleeping with someone at that very moment.  There is way more to that, but you get the picture.  I followed his rules...and literally did not leave the house unless it was for work, getting friends to drive the kids everywhere, having groceries delivered, etc and stayed in his eye sight all day long.  But...low and behold, I would still get blamed...I didn't turn the light on in the laundry room when doing laundry (the blinds were open and it was the middle of the day) so I was having an affair in there, the screen was on backwards in the basement window so clearly I was sneaking men in the house!  The more I tried to hold to his standards, the worse it got.  Finally, I said F it...if I am going to get blamed anyway, I might as well live the life I want to...go grocery shopping and take my kids to their sports and actually watch them like I want to...a crazy life I live let me tell you!  After holding strong on this, I still get some push back about me going to work and about the kid's sports, but I can actually leave the kitchen and go grocery shopping!  Long story to say, the only thing that I have found to help myself is to know that I have done nothing wrong intentionally, that this issue lies within him and that if he choses to leave I will be ok, I will fight like heck to get what I feel is right, but I will be ok. I have accepted that he will never change, but that I can change to make things easier on me...I walk away the second he starts in on me, I make plans and let him know about the plans and continue with them even if he choses not to go at the last second, I enjoy the good times with the knowledge that they will switch, I am there for my kids for anything that they need.  In my opinion, your hobby is something that makes you happy.  If you stop participating, you lose the hobby, the friends and the "me" time that is associated with it...and most likely she will notice for a couple of days, then move on to something else...in other words, there will most likely always be something else.  I refuse to have deep conversations with my h any longer.  All it does is create more fights.  He says we need to talk, I walk away...its a form of control for them.  Its probably not the correct way to do things, but I don't bring up things that are triggers to my h any longer...I just continue forward with them knowing I am not doing anything wrong, but leave it at that.   

[usagi]

It sounds like you've made some huge sacrifices for your husband and the kids, dtkm.  I think you are making a good point that I need to be figuring out what I want in life.  This is a passion of mine, one of few.  Her ex husband is a good person and a good father so I don't really feel like I'm somehow abandoning him.  I think he'll suffer in that I won't be there to set an example and he'll take more of the brunt of her abuse.

I have thought about this after the fact.  The most recent trouble was that I had some liquor after we finished up just before I drove home.  She claimed that I "broke my promise" and I know for a fact that I didn't.  I could have just left it at that.  It's the threats to break up that I can't deal with.  Yet again, we were going to move into a new place together and she said I needed to "be prepared that I will ask you to leave."  This is not OK with me.  It's her apartment so I had no right to challenge her decision.  This happened in December when I got home an hour late.  Mind you she was sleeping on the couch when I got home and we didn't leave for our other commitment until two hours later.  She was offended that I got home later than I normally did and demanded I quit or we'd need to cancel our purchase agreement on the house and I'd be stuck paying the earnest money.  None of that is OK.

I think I could handle her being cranky sometimes about my hobby.  But the threats to kick me out and break up are not OK and I won't tolerate them.  I've asked her to stop on my own and in front of my therapist and she refuses.

What I really would like is to be with someone that supports my incredibly small needs.  Encourage me and take joy in things that make me happy.  I'd like to be with someone that can take accountability for their actions so that we can both grow and develop a stronger relationship together.  Neither of those things are available with my partner.

[jaded7]

What I really would like is to be with someone that supports my incredibly small needs.  Encourage me and take joy in things that make me happy.  I'd like to be with someone that can take accountability for their actions so that we can both grow and develop a stronger relationship together.  Neither of those things are available with my partner.

Repeat this to yourself 1,000 times Usagi. These are normal and healthy needs. This is how you love someone.

Support you: your interests, your work/business, you hobbies, your wellbeing, your heart and mind
      -sounds like none of this happened, none did for me (except a little in the beginning). Everything was about her. Everything.

Takes joy in things that make you happy
       -none of this happened for you, or for me

Takes accountability for their actions or words, which helps grow a relationship
       -none of this happened, neither for me.

Commitments broken/'forgot'/'didn't see on the calendar', but I'm the person who has a bad memory and ruined an entire summer by canceling plans. I'm punishing and cruel, she's the person who called me absolutely horrible names and putdowns when she didn't get what she wanted from me. I put zero effort and planning into her birthday (she didn't like my gift and card with a heartfelt loving note on it calling them shi**y and stupid, I took off three days from my business, costing me hundreds of dollars and stress getting it organized) while 5 WEEKS earlier, she completely forgot my birthday while I watched her dog (saving her $700 in dog boarding) and she let me know she had looked up her exbf's address in the country she was traveling and "maybe I'll go visit him". I "disappeared" after finally giving up when she didn't return a text from me, she evaded and ghosted me for 2 weeks and then slipped out of town over Christmas and New Years, not calling or texting for 6 days once gone.

You cannot win Usagi. You can't even establish the rules of the game.

I think you're doing a good job of holding your boundary. As someone else above said, if you give in on this, the next thing will just come around. Because a person with BPD manufactures things you are doing 'wrong', sees abandonment in your activities, creates stories about your intentions. You simply cannot live a life without doing things, having activities. That's the problem, just living will give them something to generate their feelings about.

[kells76]

Do you feel like no matter what she does or says at this point (or in the near future), that you are active in being a choicemaker?

Basically -- do you feel like the end of the relationship is "being done to you", or is something you are choosing based on your values?

It wouldn't surprise me at all if in a few weeks she wants to go back to normal. At that point it would seem to boil down to what it always does: what do you want, what do you choose.

Just trying to get a better sense of how you're thinking of things. I know this cannot be easy.

[usagi]

Thank you kells,

I was certainly at the point of breaking it off a few weeks ago.  That is what prompted me to find my own place.  Since the move, I've been trying to work on the relationship with her in hopes that we could somehow recover.  I took the spiral she was most recently in as a sign that this would never work.  I didn't see any way to maintain my boundaries yet help her feel more secure in the relationship.  It's very apparent that the move and the new job are playing havoc with her emotions.  It's a lot to process for her all at once.  Plus dealing with me moving out.

I honestly don't know at this point.  I do wonder what would have happened if I had not gotten wrapped up in the drama a few weeks ago.  I could have played it cool and not worried about it.  Because at the end of the day I know I didn't break my promise.  I get that the alcohol smell was triggering but that shouldn't be grounds to break the relationship.  She admitted that later that morning she gave up the thought that she wanted me to move out and was prepared to suffer my needs to hold my hobby above her.

I'd imagine this is the accounting everyone on this discussion board is making every day.  Does the bs outweigh the benefits I get from this relationship.  It seems like having children with your partner heavily weighs that scale in the opposite direction of the bs.  In my case I had developed a relationship with her son.  In some rare instances I did actually feel like a dad but most of the time I was just fodder for abuse from him and his mom.

I tell you what, I'm ready for the abuse to be over.  I realize that I have a role to play but even just the negativity is a lot to deal with.  I'm getting up there in years.  I missed my opportunity to start my own family because my ex wasn't interested.  Now in my late 40s I'm starting to consider what retirement will look like and who I might spend it with.  And being with someone that brings a lot of negativity into my life is not what I have in mind.

Many months ago when I had moved into a VRBO I felt like it would give me some relief from the constant threat of breaking up.  I would have a place to land regardless.  So I was hoping that maybe I'd be a little more resilient to those sorts of threats.

I know that my partner is just acting out but I am getting very tired.

I would say that she's certainly driving this cycle of break up but I'm sort of letting it happen.

She's now inviting me to attend an art show opening with her as "friends".  I have some decisions to make.

Thank you so much for all the feedback all.

[kells76]

That's helpful to hear more of how you're seeing things.

I was certainly at the point of breaking it off a few weeks ago.  That is what prompted me to find my own place.  Since the move, I've been trying to work on the relationship with her in hopes that we could somehow recover.  I took the spiral she was most recently in as a sign that this would never work.  I didn't see any way to maintain my boundaries yet help her feel more secure in the relationship.  It's very apparent that the move and the new job are playing havoc with her emotions.  It's a lot to process for her all at once.  Plus dealing with me moving out.

And you had a medical procedure recently, too, right? It makes sense that she would react the way she did.

I tell you what, I'm ready for the abuse to be over.  I realize that I have a role to play but even just the negativity is a lot to deal with.  I'm getting up there in years.  I missed my opportunity to start my own family because my ex wasn't interested.  Now in my late 40s I'm starting to consider what retirement will look like and who I might spend it with.  And being with someone that brings a lot of negativity into my life is not what I have in mind.

You get to make active choices about what your values are and what kind of life you envision.

Every choice is a loss, even choosing something wonderful -- we choose A which means by definition we don't get not-A. You can choose to live a life without a certain level of negativity from others, and that's a good thing, and you will experience loss because of it.

I chose my H and I love him and the kids, and that choice has meant I have lost a low-drama life  

I would say that she's certainly driving this cycle of break up but I'm sort of letting it happen.

She's now inviting me to attend an art show opening with her as "friends". I have some decisions to make.

That seems important.

Some of your relationship has seemed to be reacting/responding to what she says or does. Kind of staying on your back heel -- she does things that then happen to you, you're focused on what to do in relation to her choices.

In a certain sense, the content of the choices could less important than your approach to choicemaking.

Maybe the art show invitation could be an opportunity to practice activating as a choicemaker in your own life based on what you want.

It would be totally fair to be transparent with yourself and say "I'm choosing to go because I would like to save the relationship". It would also be totally fair to say "I am choosing to end the relationship out of my own values -- it isn't happening to me, I'm doing it -- so I choose not to go".

The issue seems to be less about what you actively decide and more about if you actively decide, if that makes sense?

[usagi]

Hi kells,

It was actually her ex that had a major medical procedure recently.  They found colon cancer in some polyps that were removed.  The surgery was to remove the section of colon with the cancerous cells.  Thankfully they found no indication that it had spread to his lymph system.

As I just wrote to Salty, I'm still on the betterment forum so I must want to try?

I think all this does indicate that I'm just really reacting to her.  It is my decision ultimately.  Instead of accepting what she's saying I could also fight for her.

[kells76]

I think all this does indicate that I'm just really reacting to her.  It is my decision ultimately.  Instead of accepting what she's saying I could also fight for her.

What does that mean to you? What do you think that would that look like?

[jaded7]

Hi kells,

It was actually her ex that had a major medical procedure recently.  They found colon cancer in some polyps that were removed.  The surgery was to remove the section of colon with the cancerous cells.  Thankfully they found no indication that it had spread to his lymph system.

As I just wrote to Salty, I'm still on the betterment forum so I must want to try?

I think all this does indicate that I'm just really reacting to her.  It is my decision ultimately.  Instead of accepting what she's saying I could also fight for her.

Good questions from Kells. I get very nervous when I hear that 'fight for her' or 'fight for the relationship' phrase. I've heard it before from people with BPD, demanding that you fight for the relationship, or accusing you of not fighting for the relationship.

What does that even mean in the context of a relationship person with a personality disorder or at least toxic behaviors?