Introduction

[quizzicalcat]

Hi All,

I've been going through the book 'stop walking on eggshells'. I've found the book to be really insightful and helpful, the book recomended this forum so here I am. When I started reading I was in a relationship, now that relationship seems to be at an end.

I don't have any specific question, just a desire to reach out to people who may empasize and offer words of advice/encouragement. I realize that I'm no trained psychiatrist and can't offer diagnoses but the behaviour of my ex seems to fit all the descriptions of BPD pretty much exactly. I can't see any way my ex would countenance such a diagnosis. When I've suggested therapy for the deep emotional pain she feels, I'm met with a torrent of anger.

I feel that the relationship came to an (final) end (its come to an end many times over the last 4 years, she has dumped me and undumped me countless times) because I did set boundaries. I've been sad because she in an amazing woman. Intelligent, beautiful, generous, ambitious, loving but I've lived with constant critisicm, defending myself against absurd allegations, I've realized I cant do this anymore. Her main allegation was always I didn't love her, didn't ever show enough love, do enough. I did what I could but it was never enough.

I hope that perhaps one day she'll heal, selfishly that she'll come back to me if she does, but maybe i'll have moved on then. Anyways I want the best for her, but I can't heal her, thats her journey.

I'm a 46 year old male, wondering what life has in store. Hoping I'll be able to trust again. I don't know. I'm not one to open myself up to strangers on the internet, but here goes

Well if you've read this far thanks for reading.

[jaded7]

Hi All,

I've been going through the book 'stop walking on eggshells'. I've found the book to be really insightful and helpful, the book recomended this forum so here I am. When I started reading I was in a relationship, now that relationship seems to be at an end.

I don't have any specific question, just a desire to reach out to people who may empasize and offer words of advice/encouragement. I realize that I'm no trained psychiatrist and can't offer diagnoses but the behaviour of my ex seems to fit all the descriptions of BPD pretty much exactly. I can't see any way my ex would countenance such a diagnosis. When I've suggested therapy for the deep emotional pain she feels, I'm met with a torrent of anger.

I feel that the relationship came to an (final) end (its come to an end many times over the last 4 years, she has dumped me and undumped me countless times) because I did set boundaries. I've been sad because she in an amazing woman. Intelligent, beautiful, generous, ambitious, loving but I've lived with constant critisicm, defending myself against absurd allegations, I've realized I cant do this anymore. Her main allegation was always I didn't love her, didn't ever show enough love, do enough. I did what I could but it was never enough.

I hope that perhaps one day she'll heal, selfishly that she'll come back to me if she does, but maybe i'll have moved on then. Anyways I want the best for her, but I can't heal her, thats her journey.

I'm a 46 year old male, wondering what life has in store. Hoping I'll be able to trust again. I don't know. I'm not one to open myself up to strangers on the internet, but here goes

Well if you've read this far thanks for reading.

Welcome to you, although it's a sad situation that brings you here. We all have been through this, and your descriptions sound very much like other stories here. Please read through the different threads and you'll get a sense for how similar.

We can't diagnose either, but something important I've learned is that is really doesn't matter if there is a diagnosis, or if the diagnosis is NPD, BPD, or something else. It's the behaviors that count. We (me) tend to get very interested in whether our partner or ex 'is' BPD, but in my recovery I'm getting much more able to observe the behaviors and call them what they were...abusive.

[PeteWitsend]

Welcome.  I'm of a similar age to you.

One thing I had to learn was how to say No to people and when to recognize they were being unfair, and not to explain away their emotions and behavior to me.

A saying I've heard that resonates with me is "when people show you who they are, believe them."

It's okay to hold people accountable, and you MUST do that if you want to be in healthy relationships.  You cannot take slights and stay quiet, as much as you may want to or feel you're "taking the high road."  and if their response to your assertiveness is anger, denial, blame-shifting, projection, etc. just move along.  They showed who they are, and it's their loss.  Don't get hung up listening to their excuses and don't give them a second chance expecting they'll be better next time. 

Also, don't beat yourself up... we often find ourselves in these relationships because we are understanding (maybe to a fault) and patient with other people.  Those are good qualities... more people should be like us.  But these qualities also play right into the hands of pwBPD or who are otherwise abusive and manipulative.

[ThanksForPlaying]

Welcome. You'll find many common experiences here.

Pete - that's a super interesting and helpful mantra. The original quote from Maya Angelou is "when people tell you who they are, believe them the first time".

I've heard it interpreted as "when people show you who they are, believe them". That's also extremely helpful.

If you Google the clip of Maya Angelou discussing the concept, she says people will literally TELL you who they are (not just show you through behavior). She says people know themselves better than you do, and they will say things like "I'm not a good person" or "I always hurt people" or "I'm flaky". And we have a tendency to say "no no... you're not a bad person" or "that's ok, you're safe here with me". Sound familiar?

It takes a lot of life experience and confidence to respectfully say "thanks for that self-assessment - have a nice life". That's the extreme case, but you get the idea.

The final addendum to the quote... "the first time" is also insightful. It takes so much confidence to accept a red flag THE FIRST TIME and not allow any recycles. I certainly am not at that point yet personally. But I'd like to get there.

I was just intrigued to hear how literal this original concept was - sometimes people will literally say the words.

[ThanksForPlaying]

In a rare insightful moment, my gf once said "I'm just... not good... at caring about people... that sounds bad when I say it like that".

And of course my response was "no babe... it's ok... you're a good carer... don't be so hard on yourself". But of course she was flashing back through far more memories to make her accurate assessment.

When people tell you who they are, believe them the first time.

[PeteWitsend]

In a rare insightful moment, my gf once said "I'm just... not good... at caring about people... that sounds bad when I say it like that".

And of course my response was "no babe... it's ok... you're a good carer... don't be so hard on yourself". But of course she was flashing back through far more memories to make her accurate assessment.

When people tell you who they are, believe them the first time.

I don't recall getting any open admissions from BPDxw, or a later girlfriend (fiancee for a while, before I broke it off) like that.  But they definitely SHOWED me who they were,  constantly denying their own behavior including making bald-faced lies when it suited them, and trying to focus everything back on me... "you rolled your eyes!"  "You won't put me first!" (what does that even mean?) "You said that with a condescending tone!"  or my favorite "Stop screaming at me!" (while they're screaming)

I think that's my takeaway: if their excuse for getting angry or doing something awful doesn't make sense, don't even bother going down that path of engaging further, or listening, or giving them a second chance. 

Just "Okay, well, I don't agree, and I think it's better if we went our separate ways.  This isn't a discussion.  It's over, do not call or text anymore.  Have a nice life, good luck."

[jaded7]

In a rare insightful moment, my gf once said "I'm just... not good... at caring about people... that sounds bad when I say it like that".

And of course my response was "no babe... it's ok... you're a good carer... don't be so hard on yourself". But of course she was flashing back through far more memories to make her accurate assessment.

When people tell you who they are, believe them the first time.

Yes, that is such a great quote from Maya Angelou. My ex said once something when she was in a slightly vulnerable state along the lines of "you have to put up with me" or something, and like you said I responded with awww...what do you mean? And she said something along the lines of "I can be a handful". Another example she was yelling at me for eating some 'bad' food (she constantly criticized what I ate or drank) or something "I don't want to have to take care of you when your'e sick!!" Or if I was upset at something "I don't have time for your feelings!"

As Pete says above, especially situations where you bring something up in the relationship- kindly and gently of course, with the goal of being heard and seen and improving the relationship-and they respond with anger, blame shifting, denial, deflection....you must believe this. I got all of these, but they were almost always preceded with "this is a bad time to bring this up!" Telling you it's a bad time to bring up something is unfair. I also got "you're just trying to start a fight!" or "you wanna fight, is that what you want?!"

As Patricia Evans says in The Verbally Abusive Relationship, accusing you of trying to start a fight is, by itself, abusive because it is highjacking your autonomy and telling you what you are thinking.

[seekingtheway]

I think I'd probably struggle to take someone at their word without seeing it for myself... and I would have to see a pattern rather than one single occurence before I'd have the confidence to act and call it a day on a connection with someone.

But seems I needed a thousand occurence's with my ex - plus his literal admissions of his struggles and faults. I reaalllly wanted to believe the other side of the story that he also told. So that's definitely on me.

But then... when I read Lundy Bancroft's 'Why does he do that' (sorry all you fellas who have been abused by women), it actually made sense how you get stuck in these dynamics, and how the focus is slowly shifted away from you and onto the other person, so you get confused and stuck, and all of your energy goes into figuring the other person out, what makes them tick, what will keep them happy... so before you know it, you're in deep with no idea where the exit is. An abusive dynamic is designed to keep you there and keep you confused.

[PeteWitsend]

I think I'd probably struggle to take someone at their word without seeing it for myself... and I would have to see a pattern rather than one single occurence before I'd have the confidence to act and call it a day on a connection with someone.

But seems I needed a thousand occurence's with my ex - plus his literal admissions of his struggles and faults. I reaalllly wanted to believe the other side of the story that he also told. So that's definitely on me.

But then... when I read Lundy Bancroft's 'Why does he do that' (sorry all you fellas who have been abused by women), it actually made sense how you get stuck in these dynamics, and how the focus is slowly shifted away from you and onto the other person, so you get confused and stuck, and all of your energy goes into figuring the other person out, what makes them tick, what will keep them happy... so before you know it, you're in deep with no idea where the exit is. An abusive dynamic is designed to keep you there and keep you confused.

I think we're all a little similar in that it was extremely eye-opening for us to realize another adult could behave the way pwBPD do to someone they ostensibly love and care for. 

Like, I knew there were abusive people, dishonest people, cruel people out there.  But I assumed you'd be able to recognize them for what they were and avoid them.  The whole insidious "I'm going to change my behavior over time to deceive you, and then make you my punching bag for all my own emotional problems" routine of pwBPD seems like it comes from another planet.  It's just so illogical to me that someone would go through all that trouble instead of just FREAKING getting help for themselves!

It's also surprising to learn that people can be THAT crafty and manipulative.  I always prided myself on being intelligent and studious, FWIW; like in school I was always in advanced classes, had high scores on my standardized tests, have read widely, written articles on things and been published, etc., and it's like "I let THIS mess of a person pull the rug out from under me?  How does that happen? Am I really an idiot?"  No, they've just had a lifetime of learning how to manipulate people, and have developed instincts for that sort of thing.  For whatever reason, I have not. 

But it's helped me realize that I can't assume everything thinks like I do, or sees the world the same way, and no amount of persuasion or appeals to things like decency, logic, fairness, etc. will change that.  They are what they are, and we need to accept them for that, and not try to fit them into how we think they should be, or how we want them to be.   

[quizzicalcat]

So it took a few months for the relationship to finally properly end. She asked I move out of the rental house we were sharing. I said I could but I'd rather not as it would cause significant disruption and my children who visited every other weekend were quite settled, but I said I'd move out if thats what she wanted. She said thats what she wanted. Fast forward a few weeks when I found somewhere and told he the move out date, she flipped out! Denied having asked me to move out and said I was deserting her!!! I dont know. I've moved out and in my own flat. Oddly enough I do miss her, she's an amazing person in many ways. I wrote to her saying I missed her and would always remember her fondly and the times we had together, but she was wrong about me and and my motivations. She always accused me of may things over the last few years. She wrote back with such anger, saying how much she's glad the relationship was over, how I deliberately tried to hurt her and enjoyed her pain! I don't know, finding things hard to process. How could someone so loving turn and be so mean. I just wanted to part on good terms, she was the one who finished with me, althouigh I agreed with her that the relationship wasnt working and I was unhappy too. I mean I'm not perfect and have a lot to learn myself, its just how to take criticism when it doesnt feel constructive, and plain wrong. She constantly told me how I was feeling and what I thought. Even in the breakup that hasn't changed. Sorry about dumping my thoughts, just trying to make sense of everything, and hurting a lot.

[jaded7]

So it took a few months for the relationship to finally properly end. She asked I move out of the rental house we were sharing. I said I could but I'd rather not as it would cause significant disruption and my children who visited every other weekend were quite settled, but I said I'd move out if thats what she wanted. She said thats what she wanted. Fast forward a few weeks when I found somewhere and told he the move out date, she flipped out! Denied having asked me to move out and said I was deserting her!!! I dont know. I've moved out and in my own flat. Oddly enough I do miss her, she's an amazing person in many ways. I wrote to her saying I missed her and would always remember her fondly and the times we had together, but she was wrong about me and and my motivations. She always accused me of may things over the last few years. She wrote back with such anger, saying how much she's glad the relationship was over, how I deliberately tried to hurt her and enjoyed her pain! I don't know, finding things hard to process. How could someone so loving turn and be so mean. I just wanted to part on good terms, she was the one who finished with me, althouigh I agreed with her that the relationship wasnt working and I was unhappy too. I mean I'm not perfect and have a lot to learn myself, its just how to take criticism when it doesnt feel constructive, and plain wrong. She constantly told me how I was feeling and what I thought. Even in the breakup that hasn't changed. Sorry about dumping my thoughts, just trying to make sense of everything, and hurting a lot.

So sorry about this quizzicalcat, I know it's super hard and super confusing. In my experience, the confusion is just so overwhelming sometimes.

She asked you to leave, then blames you for leaving, and then tells you you tried to hurt her and cause her pain. Although the circumstances are different, my relationship ended in similar way....with her telling me how hurtful I am and how I caused her so much pain for not showing up to a thing she never asked me to go to, never told me about, or even mentioned after briefly talking about in general terms something she might be doing in a very wide open time period. She never mentioned it again, never told me a date/time/location....and then a week after she did it, tore me apart for not going. We had never even mentioned it again in 4 months.

It sounds like you have a lot of pain because she told you you hurt her. If so, I understand. The very last thing I would want to do to my ex was hurt her, I wanted to be there for her in any way I could.And yet she told me I hurt her so bad. It nearly broke me.

A thing with BPD partners is that they project a lot- which is to say they put their bad 'self feelings' outward onto us. I see this in when my ex would tell me what I was thinking and planning or intending in various situations. She was always wrong, and it confused me so much.

Until I learned that accusations are often confessions: they do these things or think these things, therefore they think WE must do these things or think these things. Once I learned that it made so much sense. So, for example, my ex accused me of "trying to cover my ass" when I called and asked her to just text or email me the (very particular) list of food items she brought camping so I could save her the time and money by going grocery shopping. She just exploded at me. I spent a long time trying to figure out why she would think I was trying to cover my ass, and what was I trying to cover it from???? It made no sense.

And then I realized. SHE probably is a person who offers to do things to cover her ass, things she doesn't want to do. Or she misrepresents her desires to help someone in order to look good, or whatever.

Just remember that being accused of thinking or intending things you didn't think or intend is very common. Being told to do one thing then after doing it them denying they told you to do the thing, or getting mad at you for doing the thing....very common. I experienced an episode of this in the first few weeks of dating my ex....but had no idea what it was.

Hang in there. We're here.

[quizzicalcat]

Thanks so much.I've reread your reply so many times. Things really started to make sense once I understood the accusations were in a way confessions.She is an amazing woman, one I still love.would love to heal the relationship if she could face up to her demons. Shes made it clear that she doesn't want me contacting her.i think do down she feels that if she isn't perfect no one can love her, so she reacts badly to any suggestion that she's less than perfect,even things said in love to help her. I've thought about writing to her and explaining I love her anyway, she doesn't have to be perfect. I'm scared if I go the anger and hostility is receive. It's hard, I don't have closure as I believe deep down she still lives me too, but something drives her to push me away. Don't know how to process all this.

[seekingtheway]

I've thought about writing to her and explaining I love her anyway, she doesn't have to be perfect.

Nobody needs to be perfect in order to deserve or receive love. But it is also okay for you to have standards, and it's okay for you to set boundaries and say what you will and won't accept in a relationship. And it sounds like this is where things potentially fell down - you were trying to express some of your own needs and boundaries, which is normal and very necessary in any type of healthy, reciprocal relationship, but this was not being heard or welcomed.

It leaves you in a bit of stalemate, because it takes away the option of working through problems. How can you progress from there? I think the danger in this scenario is that in order to find a way forwards and not lose the relationship entirely, the solution we come to (often subconsciously) is to swallow our own needs, and we re-enter with the intention to love and accept someone for exactly who they are (because that's what love is, right?), and we try not to rock the boat by bringing up our needs or boundaries quite as much as we did the last time... and this is how we become lost and disconnected from ourselves, and the needle moves further and further into toxicity.

It's a shame your ex isn't open to seeking the help she needs, and I'm sure you're already aware this is something that is entirely out of your control. It's frustrating to look from the outside and see where you think things could be improved and healed, and yet know you can't do anything about it.

The confusing ending where things are flipped around and you're taken completely by surprise with accusations and declarations that just don't feel true to you at all – I think that's something so many of us here on the boards have experienced, and it's extremely unsettling. The cruelty and chaos in the final act can cause a whole lot of rumination and regret that we wouldn't otherwise be feeling if we'd received the peaceful, respectful ending that felt in proportion to what had actually happened within the relationship.

Some of this will be down to projection. But sometimes there will be issues that were not expressed, and sat on and allowed to fester and grow into resentment - that can happen in any relationship without healthy communication.

When you think about the relationship and the way it ended, what are the things you are still feeling confused by and stuck on? How are you otherwise feeling about the break-up now?