Please help- Divorce process initiated but its really hard

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Each state (county?) handles DV calls a little different and it's probably a good idea to know how things work. In some areas, law enforcement is mandated to take in both parties.

I recall one member years ago remarking that both he and his spouse were arrested.  I believe that was Arizona.  I posted this memory in 2017 about his experience in jail:

Beware of physical contact.  Even if all you do is push past the raging, blocking spouse to get away, it can be blown up to "he shoved me against the wall, used a choke hold and threw me down the steps".  Yes, it happens.  He said his separation a decade ago occurred when his wife had raged and then to the responding police she claimed he threw her down the steps.  Fortunately his kids supported his account but both parents were still arrested and carted off for the night.  For a while he was pondering whether to write his memoir and title it with his cellmate's call out in the middle of the night, "Yo white man, you snoring!"

If neither of you are armed it might be you based on size.

My ex was charged with Threat of DV (I had recorded proof while she was raging) but it was later dismissed because case law in my area tightened what qualified as a threat to be more than verbal, she would have needed a weapon in her hands according to the judge.  Later during my testimony for our mutual TPO cases over in domestic court, her lawyer asked me whether I was larger than my petite spouse.  Um, yeah, ya think?  Caught off guard, I should have added but was too bewildered in those days, We're both larger than our child, should our preschooler fear us?  Then he asked another trick question, Do you want your spouse back?  He was intimating that I wanted her back under my control.  (No, I was not a controller.)  Fortunately I replied, Not the way she is.

[ForeverDad]

Each state (county?) handles DV calls a little different and it's probably a good idea to know how things work. In some areas, law enforcement is mandated to take in both parties.

I recall one member years ago remarking that both he and his spouse were arrested.  I believe that was Arizona.  I posted this memory in 2017 about his experience in jail:

Beware of physical contact.  Even if all you do is push past the raging, blocking spouse to get away, it can be blown up to "he shoved me against the wall, used a choke hold and threw me down the steps".  Yes, it happens.  He said his separation a decade ago occurred when his wife had raged and then to the responding police she claimed he threw her down the steps.  Fortunately his kids supported his account but both parents were still arrested and carted off for the night.  For a while he was pondering whether to write his memoir and title it with his cellmate's call out in the middle of the night, "Yo white man, you snoring!"

If neither of you are armed it might be you based on size.

My ex was charged with Threat of DV (I had recorded proof while she was raging) but it was later dismissed because case law in my area tightened what qualified as a threat to be more than verbal, she would have needed a weapon in her hands according to the judge.  Later during my testimony for our mutual TPO cases over in domestic court, her lawyer asked me whether I was larger than my petite spouse.  Um, yeah, ya think?  Caught off guard, I should have added but was too bewildered in those days, We're both larger than our child, should our preschooler fear us?  Then he asked another trick question, Do you want your spouse back?  He was intimating that I wanted her back under my control.  (No, I was not a controller.)  Fortunately I replied, Not the way she is.

[CravingPeace]

Thanks I am in a one party consent state. So I believe as long as I am involved in the conversation I can record. I will check with my attorney

[ForeverDad]

Wherever you live you likely can "record yourself" to document you're not the one misbehaving... and if it catches your spouse flaming out or worse, well, that her problem.

While I haven't read all the posts here over the years, mostly just here in the divorcing board, I can count on the fingers of one hand over 18 years how many times courts have stepped in and set down the law on parents recording and all of them were to instruct the parents not to purposely record the children.  Divorce is an adult matter and kids aren't to be manipulated to take sides on a divorce.

And of course documentation of abuse is not against the law.  Better to exit, but often we are blocked and can't or shouldn't leave the kids behind.

[livednlearned]

Sometimes just having a recording to give to law enforcement can help de-escalate things so the next bad thing doesn't happen 

How long do you anticipate living together?

[CravingPeace]

Thanks I am hoping to move out in August. But it depends on current proceedings. I can't leave without a parenting agreement .4 weeks of so feels like a long time right now!

[ParentingThruIt]

I'm so sorry you're going through this.

I do think you need to center the best interests of the kids as much as you can (along with your own sanity). I was able to get an order to vacate a little less than a year ago so we were at least separated for the difficult first year.

I read advice here to try to parallel parent in the first year since coparenting is probably too hard for the pwBPD/NPD initially. I agree that being in your care, or with day care or a babysitter, is better than spending a lot of time unsupervised with your ex.

[livednlearned]

I agree with what ParentingThruit wrote. It's incredibly inconvenient to divorce and then co-parent with a disordered ex.

There were many, many times it would've been so helpful to ask my son's father to pick our son up or swap dates or have him for a few extra hours/overnight. But for us, the key for moving forward was to have very firm boundaries with little to no wiggle room. It cost more money and there were more inconveniences but allowing the boundaries to shift was not worth it.

Boundaries mattered more than money, more than convenience, more than logic or immediate relief. An immediate inconvenience to me was more important than what came after a boundary was softened. Maybe some families can get to a place where boundaries can be flexible but we didn't ever get there.

Start with the best boundaries you can think of and then do what you can to make things work. It does eventually get easier as you adjust although nothing about single parenting is easy, and of course co-parenting with a disordered person is a magnitude more challenging.

[CravingPeace]

Very worried about two things .

1. I noticed bruises on her wrist arm and leg.... I hope she sint hurting her self to back her lies that i abuse her.

2. Earlier the kids told me they are going to tell their therapist on me. I said what do you mean. They said mummy said we should tell the therapist about you so the therapist could teach you to do better. She has told them to tell the therapist stuff that isnt true, or grossly quoted out of context .

When will this hell end. There seems no limit to the dirty tricks she will play. I just dont think my attorney is going to know how to handle this... i am very worried

[Tangled mangled]

Very worried about two things .

1. I noticed bruises on her wrist arm and leg.... I hope she sint hurting her self to back her lies that i abuse her.

2. Earlier the kids told me they are going to tell their therapist on me. I said what do you mean. They said mummy said we should tell the therapist about you so the therapist could teach you to do better. She has told them to tell the therapist stuff that isnt true, or grossly quoted out of context .

When will this hell end. There seems no limit to the dirty tricks she will play. I just dont think my attorney is going to know how to handle this... i am very worried

Like clockwork the pwbpd going through divorce almost always does what you have described.
My stxh, separated but still waiting to finalise the divorce, also primed my children to report me to their school.
The stage you are in is very critical. My ex was extremely thin while we were still living together at the early stages of the divorce. He almost a foot taller than me so I guess he could make a plausible claim that I was the abuser.

If I was in you situation, I would go agendas of the children to inform the therapist about what’s going on and that there’s disparagement and parental alienation at play.
I would go from the angle of it being damaging to the children’s mental health rather than how it’s hurting or affecting you.

[Tangled mangled]

* he couldn’t make a plausible claim *

[Tangled mangled]

* I would go ahead of the children to the therapist *

[ParentingThruIt]

I think it will help if you start documenting everything, on the computer or in a journal, wherever is safest. Write down what you are observing. I understand that things written down the day they happened are looked on more favorably than things documented later.

I'm so sorry this is happening.

[kells76]

Earlier the kids told me they are going to tell their therapist on me. I said what do you mean. They said mummy said we should tell the therapist about you so the therapist could teach you to do better. She has told them to tell the therapist stuff that isnt true, or grossly quoted out of context .

Can you remind me how old your kids are?

It's good you asked them what they meant. One way to follow up there is to remove them from the middle of the conflict by encouraging them that it's always OK to tell the therapist the truth, that it's important to have no secrets with the T, and that you love them and will always support them sharing their thoughts and feelings with the T. You can also ask them if there's anything they want you to share with the T. Model openness, "no secrets", and that telling the truth doesn't rattle you.

...

The article Ju-­jitsu Parenting: Fighting Back from the Down Position by Dr. Craig Childress gives a good framework for interacting with professionals when there's a high conflict parenting situation.

It's critical not to play into the narrative of "Dad is bad, antagonistic, and defensive... Mom just wants to listen to the kids". Defending yourself in a knee-jerk way to the T ("She said I did X to the kids but I never did that, she's making that up") plays into the drama framework that Mom wants: "See, he can't take any responsibility for himself, I told you he'd deny everything".

It takes non-intuitive skills and approaches to navigate this terrain. Getting educated and informed about the "playbook" can help you avoid stepping on the landmines.

The whole article is an A+ goldmine. I strongly encourage you to read the whole thing so that you can go into meetings with the T from a collaborative/productive posture ("I'm not interested in labels, I just want a loving relationship with my children") vs a self-defensive posture (participating in the drama triangle).

[CravingPeace]

Thank you all so much for the feedback.

I have a journal that I note down every day, with times, dates, what happened. Who was there. My attorney is using it.

My kids in therapy are 5 and 7.

I absolutely said to them when they said mommy told them to say stuff "Your therapy is not for mummy or daddy it is for you. It doesn't matter what mummy or daddy think. All that matters is that is helps you. I love you, but please make sure you just tell the truth not what mummy says you should be saying".

They then said "But mummy said you wouldn't get into trouble if we told those things that she said we should, the therapist would just help you".

I said which I don't know if was the right thing "Yes daddy can get into trouble if you tell the therapist things that are not true, that are bad". I wasn't sure how else to handle that. My son then angrily went to mummy and said "Mummy its not true, if we tell the therapist things about daddy he can get into trouble".

I can see how that would look like I was trying to cover things up, I really wasn't I just meant if they lie about me, and say I hurt them when I haven't It would be bad.

They also told me that she had said I was drunk at the weekend as I had half a bottle of gin. She said this while taking a pre mixed bottle of margarita from the fridge with only 20% gone and told the kids it was a bottle of Gin. Which is not a heap of alcohol over 3 nights at the weekend. But maybe I need to have 0 alcohol at weekends when I am with them. But by her telling them it was Gin she wanted to stick it in their heads that is was neat spirits. So they pass it on to the therapist. It's just so cruel.

I said I would be putting a lock on my door for privacy, she said she would do the same I said fine that is of course ok. She then said she just wanted me out. I said I wanted that too but I would not desert my children. She said I am not asking you too. Well I said your response to the divorce petition is not agreeable so I can't. I have tried to mediate multiple times with you and you keep refusing. She denied this. (It is 3 attempts now)

She then said well you said when you filed you said "it was part of the game". That is all I am doing. I said no I said this is what attorneys do to negotiate a settlement, they put lower figures in I did not say it was a game.

What she did was make false allegations.  So she indirectly admitted she is playing a game. I don't think she realizes how serious it is.

If she pushes on with lies she knows to be untrue and it ends up in court, Attorney says at that point it is purgery and Defamation of character territory if I so choose. Lets see how Amber heard got on. I don't think it will go there, but still...

Anyway I now know she is desperate to have me out of the house. She now knows I refuse to leave without a parenting plan.

Lets see who blinks first.

[ForeverDad]

Who takes the children to their therapy sessions and picks them up afterward?

This is a big question because the person who takes them to a session and who picks them up from sessions has a huge impact on what the the kids say during the session.  After all, they will know their mother will surely quiz them afterward.

Here's what two CPS investigators did near the end of my divorce process when my stbEx had caused scenes with staff and our pediatrician fired her.  However, the letter to her used passive language stating they were "withdrawing services".  She knew this would make her look very bad so she cooked a up scheme for her to look less bad than me.  So I soon faced a CPS investigation.

Up until the final decree she had temp custody and majority time.  By then he was in kindergarten so CPS clearly saw school as a neutral zone.  He didn't support the allegation, good for him, even though she was the one taking him to school and picking him up.

If you are not bringing children to the therapist - play therapist? - then fix that glaring omission now.  Your ex is surely using the therapist as a "negative advocate" if you're not participating the therapy sessions.  Why was I involved in therapy during my divorce?  Because my ex had temp custody and my voice was silenced during my two year divorce.

[CravingPeace]

We take turns to take them.

It also so happens I recorded her coaching the children to tell the therapist stories "by accident"

My attorney says its admissable.

Even better my son told me he told the therapist some things about me, she said unless I was hitting him or he felt unsafe she was more worried about helping him.

He said he told her he was not scared or worried about me.

So now I have evidence of her behaviour and my children have basically ignored her attempts to alienate me.

I feel like things will get real for her soon. She hates facts and evidence. She prefers feelings. Unfortunately I dont think a judge will be sympathetic.

Its a small win with along way to go. But for my mental health its important to take any win and soak it up I feel.

Its very easy in these senarios to focus on the bad. Its the good and the wins that keep your chin up. We should all remember that. Dont only focus on the negative.