New boundary

[dtkm]

As we make our way through yet another disregulation of my uBPDh’s I am realizing that it is time to set another boundary. My first priority was to calm the whole house and ensure everyone’s safety. II have accomplished that for the most part. My next priority is to make sure that all of the children are treated equally all of the time,, no matter whose child it is, full children, stepchildren, it doesn’t matter.  Though I am having an issue with what the consequence is if he continues as he is, ignoring children, separating children, making it obvious who he cares for and who he doesn’t, but completely switching when he regulates. Previously, I was like FU, you treat my kids like crap and I will do the same to your daughter. When her dad is around she is not nice to me, so it all honestly it’s harder to be nice, as what I want to do is point out everything she does that is so inappropriate, but instead I have decided to walk away. But…that doesn’t seem like an appropriate boundary, you treat my kids like crap I will treat your daughter like crap…we are talking about kids here who all deserve love and kindness. So what boundary do I set?  Any suggestions would be very appreciated!

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[kells76]

Hi dtkm;

Great question about boundaries. This is really where the rubber meets the road for the Bettering board.

It would hurt to see your spouse treat the kids differently. That hits something at your core, I'm sure.

It's good that you have this insight:

what I want to do is point out everything she does that is so inappropriate, but instead I have decided to walk away. But…that doesn’t seem like an appropriate boundary, you treat my kids like crap I will treat your daughter like crap…we are talking about kids here who all deserve love and kindness.

Right. It could certainly be structured as a boundary -- "I choose to treat children the same way they treat me and my children", which would be 100% under your control -- but just because something is structured as a boundary doesn't mean it's loving. So it's good that you aren't interested in going that route.

My next priority is to make sure that all of the children are treated equally all of the time,, no matter whose child it is, full children, stepchildren, it doesn’t matter.  Though I am having an issue with what the consequence is if he continues as he is

Boundaries are rules for ourselves, that we are in control of, that don't require anyone else to change, and that are for our own protection.

We don't have boundaries for the purpose of making others change their behaviors. They may change their behaviors in response to our boundaries (normal human response, like the lead changing steps in a dance)... or they may not. There's no guarantee.

Of course you want the kids to be treated equally all the time; I get it. You can only control if you treat the kids equally. As hard as it is to face, you cannot control if your H does so.

Unfortunately, there may be natural consequences to him if he chooses to treat them unkindly -- some kids may, as adults, choose not to have a relationship with him -- but once again, none of that is under your control.

Big picture, these family situations when BPD is involved really test our values and beliefs at a core level. We're forced to face how little control we have over what other family members do, and it shows the stark contrast between what we do and don't control. It's gut-wrenching; believe me, I get it.

So what boundary do you set? That will depend on what values you personally have about how you treat children, because the only boundaries you can set are rules for yourself and your own behavior, that are under your control, and don't require your H to participate.

There are some extreme boundaries, like "I do not choose to stay married to someone who does not treat all children in the family equally". That's under your control.

There are some less-extreme boundaries, like "No matter what any other family member does, I choose to treat all kids in the family equally". That's also under your control.

Hard stuff... what do you think? Anything about the situation standing out to you, as an area 100% under your control?

[dtkm]

As I was sitting in bed last night hugging my s6 who was scared out of his mind as my H was screaming at me, accusing me of having an affair instead of going to jury duty because the air on the car was set to 75 degrees (?I don’t understand that connection), because I was responding to my other kids who had text me and because I wouldn’t “give him my wedding ring” (we have gone down this path before…I take it off at his request I get blamed because I want to look single) I realized the consequences for his actions with the kids will be natural. My h was screaming at me. I asked him to leave the kids and I alone and he kept at me. I told him to please leave us alone as the kids were afraid…he kept at it. I told him if he gets physical I will call thr police. To which he said call them. He grabbed my hand but I pulled it away and that was it so he did not get physical. I went upstairs to calm my kids. Our s6 was crying saying I want mama over and over. My h went over to him and my s said I want mom. He continued at me and my s said I’m mad at you dad. To which my h said this is all because of mom. My s said mom has done nothing wrong leave her alone. I was looking for a consequence if he treated anyone like crap…and I guess the answer is I don’t save his relationship with any of the kids any longer, instead i support where they are at, whether that is if they want to have a relationship with their dad or not. All of the kids are beginning to realize the reality of the situation, I will not push this realization but I will not sugar coat it either.

[HurtAndTired]

dtkm,

I am so sorry that you are going through this. To me, this sounds like a safety issue for the mental health of young children. They should never, ever be subjected to this kind of fear. It is beyond scary to see a parent who is completely out of control yelling and screaming at their other parent. Do you have safety plans in place for when your H is this dysregulated? Do you have a safe room? Go bags packed for yourself and the kids? Do you have a plan for a safe place to stay until the storm has passed?

To be clear, I am not giving you a "run message." This is a boundary suggestion based on your safety and that of your children. I know you want to stay and better your relationship. I am in the same boat with my young S3. My dBPDw can become incredibly dysregulated (often when she has been drinking.) When she is in this state she can and does become very verbally abusive to me (swearing, screaming, name-calling, etc.) She cannot be reasoned with in this state. She has gotten violent in the past, but a call to the police has put that to rest for the past 10 months. The point is that her behavior can and does freak out our young son. I have to consider his physical and mental well-being as my priority.

My boundary is that I will not have our son exposed to verbal abuse. If she must say something awful to me, she has to do it in private and keep her voice down. If this boundary is crossed, I will remove myself and our son from the situation. I have a safe room in my house with a door that locks. If Mom becomes verbally abusive to Dad where S3 can hear, he and I go to that room and lock the door until my wife becomes regulated again. If things are really bad, I can grab our go bags and take S3 to my parents' house and stay there until the storm passes.

If I am leaving I will tell her I will be back when she has calmed down. Sometimes she is still clear-headed enough to have this caveat connect, sometimes not. I try to do my due diligence and not activate/further aggravate her fear of abandonment. However, getting away from danger (whether it is our mental or physical safety) is the priority here and not caretaking her abandonment fears.

Boundaries are for your protection and the protection of the children, not to change your husband's behavior. However, there are consequences to crossing boundaries that he will hopefully find unpleasant enough to give him pause to think and choose to reign in the problematic behaviors. Think of it in "if/then" terms. For example; If I scream at my wife while the kids are present, then she will take them and leave until I have calmed down.

Hopefully, this will eventually lead him to the realization: Because I don't like being left alone, perhaps I shouldn't scream at my wife in front of the kids. He can choose to continue to violate this boundary and receive the same result, again and again. You cannot control his reaction to the consequences of violating this boundary. You can only control that the boundary is firm and consistent. The choice is completely up to him. However, it is your job as the mentally stable parent to protect the kids from having to see their Dad like this.

My heart goes out to you. My SS25 is estranged from me due to dBPDw triangulating him against me while she was lashing out against my newly placed and enforced boundaries several months ago. While I mourn the loss of that relationship, I understand how hard it is to be a stepparent in a blended family with a mentally unstable partner. By the time I came into my SS's life, he was already 12 and I knew nothing about my wife's condition. The horrible things that he had to see and listen to, I shudder to think of the lasting damage that was done. I can and will not let the same thing happen to my S3. Now that I have educated myself about BPD and have learned how to manage things from the 50% of the relationship that I control, I have real hope that things will get better and S3 won't have the same mental scars.

Please feel free to reach out to me if there is anything that I can do to help. You and your family will be in my prayers.

HurtAndTired

[dtkm]

Thank you so much HurtandTired, I so appreciate your comment.  To answer your question, no, I don't have a safe room or to go bags packed.  Packing bags and having them in the car is something that I have thought of in the past.  Believe it or not, things are actually so much better than they used to be.  Prior to him filing for divorce (and us calling the divorce off) and me "letting out all of our secretes" to my lawyer when he did, there was a lot of physical, emotional and verbal violence.  I turned into a shell of a person.  Two of the times that he became physically violent with me, MY oldest son was not home (thankfully), I grabbed MY oldest daughter, tried to grab our younger two kids but he forbid me to even though they were crying calling out for me and I feared things would get worse, so I ran to the neighbors who is a police officer.  Each time, my neighbor would go over to my house to ask for the kids, and conveniently my h would have calmed down and would tell my neighbor that I was the crazy one and that I was choosing favorites with my kids and leaving the little ones out so he would not allow them to go with me, but that I was welcome to go home whenever and the kids could go to me then.  Which he would follow through with, I would walk in the house, the kids would run to me and we would go upstairs and he would leave us alone.  Any other times that I tried to leave, he would not allow me to take my 2 youngest kids...and I refused to leave them alone in that horrible situation, so I stayed and separated my self...but none of the doors to any bed rooms in our house lock.  He would leave for a bit, only after I had promised that I would stay home if he left, and I would have taken all of the kids to our bedroom doing my best to calm each of them.  Luckily, since I have enacted my boundary of walking away and not engaging (realizing that this only makes things worse) when he starts in on me, things in this area have gotten much better...no physical violence and he stops when he realizes that he is not getting anything out of me, really not anything close to what it used to be.  What is hard is for me to be completely silent when my kids are present, instinctly I say please stop as the kids can hear you and are afraid, which is enough fuel for him to keep going at me.  Does your wife allow you to take your son with you when you go to your safe room or leave?  There is absolutely no way that he could take care of the kids when he is dysregulated, there is no way that I would leave them alone in this situation, as I struggle to do so when he is regulated.  This is also when he starts in with such strange behavior...like tickling them when they are trying to go to sleep at night and then getting upset with them that they are worked up and not sleeping...our s6 has started to ask his dad to stop when he starts in on this now.  We are back in our cycle again, I went to an interview (which lasted a little over an hour) yesterday, text him that I got offered the job and after saying "Awesome...congratulations" he now won't speak to me.  Not sure the issue...if it was because I got offered the job which I am really happy about but means that I will be out of the house for more time than right now or because I was away for a little under 2 hours...but honestly I won't ever know, both suggestions are crazy and I am trying not to care!  He left last night, no word as to where he was going and came home around 10 pm, but didn't come up to kiss the kids or even say hi to me.  I was up with 2 of the kids last night with aches and pains, but he didn't seem to care, just kept watching movie after movie all night and morning long, no sleep or question as to what was going on when I came downstairs twice to get medicine for my kids.  I don't get it!  Finances are tight, his work has had a bunch of layoffs lately and really anyone is next...but he still goes to the gym and logs into work after 9 am many days or doesn't go into work, works from home, when he knows it would look better on him if he went in, etc.  He has mentioned that I need to pick up work but every time I try to do so, he makes it close to impossible!  I pushed through and am super excited about this job, but I worry about leaving the kids alone with him any more time than I already do, not to mention that our daycare situation is up in the air at the moment too!  Overall, I will say a good amount of progress has been made by setting boundaries, sticking with them and realizing that no matter what happens he will spilt on me at some point soon so I might as well do what I want to make my life as happy as I can since I know I am not doing anything wrong!  Every couple of weeks he is making comments that tell me he may be coming to the realization that his actions are not always right...ie. this past week our S6 was yelling about something, he told me jokingly that he is thinking of putting out a jar so that every time someone yells in the house they would have to put money in the jar.  I smiled, he asked me what I was smiling about, I said nothing, he said, oh yeah but then I will be paying as well! I am always thankful for these moments of some sort of clarity! Sorry that probably went on longer than I meant, but I guess my question is how do you manage to "leave" the situation with your kids without your wife creating even more drama/scariness than is already going on?     

[dtkm]

On a different note...my son just called me as he was at our rec center and when he left, he couldn't find his bike.  I told him not to worry about it, to walk home and that he can ride my bike and I would get him another one when I was able to do so.  Funny thing is that my H mentioned to me 2 days ago that my son needed a new bike, which he does, but not immediately.  (His bike is his lifeline as he literally rides his bike everywhere all day long)  This was a totally random comment from my H.  Well now my H is in his not nice mood and he usually takes that out on me and MY kids...so my son is def a target.  I decided to check the video footage for our house alarm and saw that my H left the house and came back in about 20 ish minutes, getting back about 10 minutes before my son called me with nothing in his hands.  If he leaves he usually comes back with groceries, lunch, etc, but nothing this time...I don't want to think this way, but everything in me is saying that my H took my son's bike...am I crazy to think this!     

[HurtAndTired]

dtkm,

I'm glad that my comments were of some help. To answer your question, my wife knows better than to try to block me if I am leaving the room or the house, with or without our son. I have told her very specifically that if she ever lays a hand on me in anger again, it will result in a call to the police. I have only had to call the police once for her to know that this boundary is deadly serious. I have communicated to her that grabbing, pushing, holding, or physically blocking me from leaving are considered to be physically aggressive acts and will result in a call to the police. I wanted her to know that it is not just hitting, kicking, biting, pulling hair, slapping, etc. that are considered to be physical aggression in my boundary, but any attempt to physically restrain me as well.

I have only had to remove our son physically from the situation once. She was dysregulated and was insulting me in front of our son. I gave her the warning that if she continued I was going to leave the room and take S3 with me so he didn't have to listen to this. I reminded her that insulting the other parent where a child can hear is insulting half of the child and is unacceptable. She countered with one of her classic "I'm only speaking the truth" excuses and continued to put me down. I told S3 that we were going to go play with his toys, I picked him up, took him upstairs to the safe room (his bedroom,) and locked the door. We played with his toys while Mom stomped around on the first floor of the house for a little bit and was muttering angrily to herself (she had been drinking.) Then she went down to the basement. I heard her loud dance music come on the stereo and then the sounds of her hitting her punching bag (a very useful Christmas present from me that has given her a safe outlet for when she feels like getting physical.)

After an hour or so of this, she ended up back in the living room in front of the TV. I put S3 to bed (both his bedroom and our guest room are safe rooms) and went to sleep in the guest room. By the morning my wife was still sleeping on the couch. I got S3 up and made him breakfast. My wife was visibly hungover and acted as if she was feeling very ashamed. When S3 tried to engage with Mom and she recoiled, I told him "Mommy isn't feeling well. Let's go play somewhere else until she is feeling better." By that afternoon she had completely reset and acted as if nothing had happened. I didn't press the matter, but I had demonstrated that my "no verbally attacking me/insulting me in front of our child" boundary was going to be enforced 100% of the time. Since then it has only taken a warning from me for her to stop when she verbally starts in on me in front of S3.

As I said in my earlier post, my boundaries are intended to protect my S3 and myself, not change my wife's behavior. However, the negative consequences that come from violating those boundaries provide an incentive for her to change. Ultimately I cannot force her to change, but I can make her mistreating me uncomfortable enough to give her second thoughts about violating those boundaries.

I know that she is capable of controlling her outbursts, as she has never had one in public. She does not have them at work. I have seen her get dysregulated when we are with other people and hold it in until she can unleash it on me in private. Why does she only explode when we are at home? It's because she fears the consequences of losing her job, getting arrested, having people think badly of her (losing her victim status,) etc.

I take some accountability for allowing things to get as bad as they got before laying down my boundaries. She escalated with me gradually over time. When she would act out and I would do little or nothing, she would feel safe to escalate. Over time I "trained her" to think that it was ok to use me as a punching bag (both figuratively and literally.) My boundaries are intended to revoke the permission that I have previously given for all of this bad behavior. If she can hate her boss but not hit him, she can do the same with me, if she chooses to do so. Ditto with screaming at me, calling me names, etc. Taking away permission for her to use me as an outlet for her negative emotions has caused her to find other ways to self-soothe. The punching bag has been a particularly useful one. I hope that over time, she will develop more tools to deal with the negative feelings that overwhelm her, but that is her work to do, not mine.

As to your H moving your son's bike. Hasn't he done something like this before with one of the kids' phones? Listen to your gut on this. You have become super sensitive to his moods/behaviors over the years as a method of self-preservation. Trust your instincts. Help your S look for his bike, and perhaps find a way to let your H know that moving the kids' things is unacceptable without accusing him. Saying something like "S's bike was missing and we had to look everywhere before we finally found it. It could have been any one of us cleaning up who moved it without thinking, but it's not important who. I know that when I have moved something of yours without thinking and you can't find it, it can be really frustrating. Let's make sure that going forward none of us, myself included, are moving other people's things around without telling them. Ok?"

And in case no one else has told you, you should be proud of yourself for your new job. Congratulations! Helping make sure that the family is financially stable when you have a mentally ill and impulsive spouse is a heavy responsibility for the "non" partner, but it's what we have to do. I am also glad to hear that you have made so much progress with your boundaries. It goes to show you that the boundaries can and do make things better. It also shows that your H has adapted to those boundaries and, for the most part, has been respecting them. It makes implementing new ones that much easier for you. Think of it as just expanding on what you have already started!

I also want you to know that my heart goes out to you and that I know what you are going through. I have been through it and feel your pain and frustration myself. Keep doing what is right for you and the kids. When you get discouraged, think of all the progress you have made. When you feel like your H is incapable of making changes, think of how much better things are now than they were a few years ago. You've got this! I'm cheering for you!

Take care,

HurtAndTired

[dtkm]

It’s been a weekend…and it’s only Saturday!  Ugh!  Since I got my job offer last Monday, (which my H told me when we first got back together, that me working more was a requirement) my haha not spoken to me. He has said to talk to him even if we are not speaking about anything that is big. So I sent him a text prior to accepting the job, saying no response means that you agree to everything on the text…I get no response. He has ignored every text I have sent all concerning the kids over the week. He just 2 days ago started sleeping in bed again as the other nights he stayed up all night watching movies. This was all set off by me getting a job offer…which was a requirement f his!  This morning, I was working out walking stairs because he was on our treadmill. He walked in front of me, he could have gone over to the side, and I said can you move I am trying to workout…a comment I shouldn’t have made but it was a lot nicer than I wanted to say. He started in on me then said I’m not doing this and walked off. Perfect, he leaves to go to the gym but before he does he confirms with my stepdaughter that she had to put a sheet on her bed…she is 13, still sleeps in our room and he has never…never…put a sheet on her bed in this house!  He leaves for 3 hours for the gym. My stepdaughter needs to do something for a medical issue, but she can’t find what she needs. She asks me if I know where it is. I don’t. I tell her all of the places I have seen it but it isn’t anywhere. Mind you…when my h gets in this mode stuff gets put everywhere but the correct place…the milk in the vitamin cabinet, ice cream in with the chips…stuff gets put in strange places. Probably what happened here but I don’t know!  My stepdaughter said she asked her mom to bring another one over and I said I could take her there if that would help. I start to clean the basement. Apparently my h gets home, at this point my daughter catches him going through my wallet and apparently he took a $100 gift card as that is no longer in my wallet. He comes downstairs…all of the kids were down there, including my stepdaughter who had just gone upstairs. He asked me a normal question about the day, then asks me if I know where the medical thing is. I respond no but that I offered to take her to her mom’s house if she needed me too…and all of a sudden he rips into me screaming that I took them and hid them I say I’m not like you who steals my daughters phone twice and my sons bike, and try to r walk away but he blocks me. I tell him let me out or I will call 911. He says call them then lets me through. He follows me upstairs still screaming at me, I go out the front door and say that I will wait for my stepdaughter’s mom before I go back in the house to which he tells me that she has already been to our house, and that she and my SD know that I stole them. So I call her, she says no I said that’s not something she would do then said she is coming to get her daughter. He continues to scream at me. I get my kids in the car. He goes out to them and asks if they want to go with him and all say no. He then tells me that I have made it so that they are all afraid of him. We leave driving slow as to make sure my SD’s mom is near as I don’t want her sitting there too long. She rolls her window down as she drives past and checks to make sure I am ok to which I say yes but I am upset that I would get accused of that to which she says I know you would never do that and that was what I said. I get my kids food and make sure my s13 is ok as he walked out after us. He told me that my h yelled at him that he is no longer allowed to play video games cause it is on a tv…that is never used by anyone else. I told him not to worry that I would move them to a place where he doesn’t ever have to be alone with my h at night to play them. We start heading to one of my kids friend’s birthday parties. He texts me to ask where the party is. I told him that I thought it was best if we spent the afternoon apart. He said so you are keeping the kids from me. I told him no, that it was a kids party and no stress is needed we will be home after and he can play with whoever wants to play with him and I gave the address but asked for space. He shows up to the party. I keep my distance, he sits on a bench at the far end from where everyone is and is doing stuff on his phone. Interacting with the kids for maybe 10’monutes of the 2 hour party. They only wanted to play with me. We go home, he gets home before us, walks out past us with a backpack and says I’ll see you later. That was 2 hours ago…who knows what the night will bring, but I am so over this crap.

[Notwendy]

That’s not a boundary. It’s a retaliation only the person who suffers is a child who doesn’t deserve that. Boundaries are a reflection of our values. Is this your value to treat a child like that? If not - then that isn’t a boundary.

A boundary is « I will protect my child from abusive behavior » and what actions you take if someone treats him poorly.

[Notwendy]

This was in reference to the boundary "if you treat my child poorly, I'll do the same to yours". You probably don't have to do that- they have enough of being treated poorly by their own father. It seems unthinkable to add to that. Speaking from the perspective of once being a child with a BPD mother - hearing her yell at my father, at us, and seeing her behavior.

What I also recall are the adults who treated me kindly- thank goodness for them.

A boundary can't control your H or what he does. It's only your value and what you do to protect it. You don't tell a burglar "my boundary is that you are not going to rob my house and then leave the door open. Your boundary is you lock your door and if the burglar breaks in- you call the police.

I can't tell you how to manage your boundary but if it is that all kids are to be treated fairly - then you do it no matter what your H does. And if your boundary is that you don't allow your H to be abusive to children, this goes for all the kids too. If you did decide to separate and think his kids are in danger, call CPS for them.