I don't want to validate the "invalid"

[captain5024]

I've learned while I can validate emotions and I can be empathetic, I have no interest in validating crazy.

The self centered, abusive, narcissistic behavior, accusations that come with BPD episodes.  I have no interest in even dealing with it.   I won't even acknowledge behavior that "crosses the line".   

I once had significant issues with NPD and hypochondria.   In retrospect, validating my delusions enabled my behavior to persist.

So...I'm with a BPD and I don't feel like validating bull crap and nonsense.

What's next?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[EyesUp]

One word:  Boundaries.

Validation is not a one-size-fits-all solution.  It needs to be incorporated with other adaptations, and a very important one is establishing boundaries.  

This site has good resources here:  https://www.bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

You don't need to "validate any abusive or unreasonable behavior.  In fact, no one needs to tolerate behavior that we find inappropriate, or that makes us uncomfortable.  However, we do need to learn our own limits and how to best communicate with others - which is extra challenging when any PD is in the mix.  That's where the boundary setting comes in.

Does this make sense?

[kells76]

Couple of thoughts.

One is that EyesUp and I (and the team) are coming from the same place: validation is not the only tool for every BPD situation. It's one tool in a full toolbelt; we need to be skilled enough not only to use the tool correctly, but to know when to select it or when to select a different one instead.

Validation is deeply understanding the emotion behind your partner's words -- not in a "checking the boxes" kind of way, where we say canned lines like "I hear what you're saying" or "You sound upset", but in a profoundly empathetic way, where we're vulnerable enough to mentally put ourselves in her shoes and say "if I really believed that I was doing XYZ, I'd feel the same way that she feels".

Validation is a relationship- and trust-building tool, especially when one (or both) partners are sensitive people. Therapists often validate skillfully and it feels good. We all want validation!

Validation (vulnerability and trust building) is inappropriate when destructive/toxic behaviors are present. If we're trying to validate when there's abusive stuff happening, it means we haven't built the skills to recognize when to use and when not to use the tool. That's an "us" problem.

When we find ourselves thinking and feeling things like "I shouldn't have to validate every last thing she says", or "Why do I have to validate all her BS", or "Validation does nothing for us", those can be big signals that (a) we may have a skills deficit (overcomeable!) about tool use, and/or (b) resentment has entered the equation.

We can feel resentful (an important signal to pay attention to) when we:

overfunction for others
have expectations for others that they don't fulfil
don't take care of ourselves
aren't practicing radical acceptance
have broken our own boundaries
have compromised our own values
and more (think about what else might go on this list)

You're noticing yourself feeling this:

So...I'm with a BPD and I don't feel like validating bull crap and nonsense.

What's next?

It's really good that you are able to be honest and bring that up here.

What is that feeling telling you about yourself (not about her)? Focus the spotlight on you. What's going on for you? Are any of the contributing factors listed above in play right now?

[captain5024]

What is that feeling telling you about yourself (not about her)? Focus the spotlight on you. What's going on for you? Are any of the contributing factors listed above in play right now?

Shame.  I have shame because I must enforce boundaries (which I have).  The schedule changed for the holiday, I enjoyed the time by myself...but plans were broken because she couldn't keep it together and it was healthy for me to enforce a boundary and leave the situation.

I have shame because weeks of attempting to validate didn't work, and the cycle repeated.  After the boundary was enforced there was rage (expected), but after a day or two it blew over.  We are waiting on the first therapy appointment, later next week.

[kells76]

A couple of therapists have suggested to me that we feel guilt about something we have done ("I did something bad"),  but shame about who we are ("I am bad").

That's pretty prescient that you can talk about feeling shame that your efforts did not stop the cycle.

Do you feel like there is something wrong about who you are as a person, for not being able to stop it?

Have you felt that way in the past and/or in family relationships?

[captain5024]

Do you feel like there is something wrong about who you are as a person, for not being able to stop it?

Have you felt that way in the past and/or in family relationships?

Yes, because I can not stop the episode, narcissistic abuse, lack of empathy, etc., I feel like it is because I am flawed -- not emotionally strong enough, etc.

Between validation, listening and enforcing a boundary where I must avoid, leave, etc., there is a "jump" that takes place.  It is never smooth, and I can express anger.  I never handle this the way I want to or the way I intend.

For me, radical acceptance is fleeting.  It's there some of the time, and unfortunately I'm still in "the cycle" even though I don't want to be.  While this actually has improved, it hasn't improved enough for me.

[captain5024]

I was raised by alcoholic and NPD parents and had "core shame" until I was in my late 30s (I'm now in my mid 40s). 

[kells76]

Yes, because I can not stop the episode, narcissistic abuse, lack of empathy, etc., I feel like it is because I am flawed -- not emotionally strong enough, etc.

Being real about this is important. It's good you're getting it out "on paper". Shame is powerful, I know.

Between validation, listening and enforcing a boundary where I must avoid, leave, etc., there is a "jump" that takes place.  It is never smooth, and I can express anger.  I never handle this the way I want to or the way I intend.

What is your self-talk like after you feel like you didn't handle something the way you intended? What kinds of phrases do you tell yourself, what's the narrative in your head? I struggle with extremely negative narrative/inner voice that comes up when I'm sleep deprived (it's a major trigger) and the starting phrase is "you're a terrible person". It can escalate from there -- curious if anything similar is happening to you. My current theory is that the extreme negative self talk is a regulatory mechanism... an unhealthy one, but a regulating one, when I have few mental resources.

For me, radical acceptance is fleeting.  It's there some of the time, and unfortunately I'm still in "the cycle" even though I don't want to be.  While this actually has improved, it hasn't improved enough for me.

Tell me more about what radical acceptance looks like to you.

I was raised by alcoholic and NPD parents and had "core shame" until I was in my late 30s (I'm now in my mid 40s). 

My mom was a victim of childhood abuse but didn't know (or start to get treatment) until I was in the 5-10 year old age range. Additionally, her mom died when I was ~10 months old. I suspect I've had a lot of core shame, too, but it felt normal, so I don't think I put a label on it and am still working on if I want to.

Did you have experiences as a child of feeling like you had to manage adult things?

[captain5024]

What is your self-talk like after you feel like you didn't handle something the way you intended? What kinds of phrases do you tell yourself, what's the narrative in your head?

Tell me more about what radical acceptance looks like to you.

Did you have experiences as a child of feeling like you had to manage adult things?

My self-talk after the fact if things don't go well; I can be awfully hard on myself.  I question my own standards to my values and boundaries and my ability to be centered and stable.  At least temporarily I can blame myself. 

Radical acceptance looks like the serenity prayer.   This is unlikely to get better, and will likely get worse if there is never treatment.  Also, my body "knows the score" so to speak, and these days it's been speaking a lot about how much narcissistic abuse it is willing to accept.  I'm attempting to maintain patience and I've given myself until Labor Day to make a divorce or no decision, but honestly my body may move that date forward if things carry on like they are.

Yes, I was the only child in a home where both parents were functional alcoholics and also likely had NPD -- I had to walk on eggshells and destroy myself in order to survive.

The first therapy appointment is Wednesday, and boy is she upset.  Projecting, ignoring, angry, full of spice.  I assume she is feeling the heat, so to speak.

[kells76]

The first therapy appointment is Wednesday, and boy is she upset.  Projecting, ignoring, angry, full of spice.  I assume she is feeling the heat, so to speak.

Remind me, is it couples therapy?

[captain5024]

Remind me, is it couples therapy?

Probably not.  Initially it will be with me, but I'm giving the therapist "free reign" on what she thinks is best at this point.  I've talked to the therapist before the first meeting to give her ideas of what has been going on during episodes and why I feel BPD is an apporpriate diagnosis.  I told the therapist about increasing boundaries as of late.  The therapist agreed it would be difficult to continue this relationship if she does not makes changes to respect boundaries and deal with her abandonment issues and paranoia.

We've done couples therapy in the past.  Meh.  I've also done a lot of therapy for my own NPD years ago.  "It works if you work it", as they say.  Either I'm a unicorn or I was misdiagnosed, but I don't exhibit much of the symptoms anymore...I've had some really good therapists, I can't speak enough of the outstanding work they have done.  I owned the label...

[kells76]

Probably not.  Initially it will be with me, but I'm giving the therapist "free reign" on what she thinks is best at this point.  I've talked to the therapist before the first meeting to give her ideas of what has been going on during episodes and why I feel BPD is an apporpriate diagnosis.  I told the therapist about increasing boundaries as of late.  The therapist agreed it would be difficult to continue this relationship if she does not makes changes to respect boundaries and deal with her abandonment issues and paranoia.

I think I'm tracking, then, that you have your first solo T appointment on Wednesday. The plan is that it's just for you. You've suggested to this T (or you plan to suggest) that you're open to the T meeting with you and W together, but that's not what's "on paper" right now.

Is that it? Or am I missing that this T is actually a couples T, and that's the long term plan on paper, but you have agreed with your W that just you will go "for now"?

I want to make sure I'm understanding the situation 

[captain5024]

I think I'm tracking, then, that you have your first solo T appointment on Wednesday. The plan is that it's just for you. You've suggested to this T (or you plan to suggest) that you're open to the T meeting with you and W together, but that's not what's "on paper" right now.

Is that it? Or am I missing that this T is actually a couples T, and that's the long term plan on paper, but you have agreed with your W that just you will go "for now"?

I want to make sure I'm understanding the situation 

No. 

It will be me and my spouse on Wednesday.  It will likely be just my spouse in the future, with me coming in periodically.  At least, that's the plan. 

My apologies for the lack of clarity. 

[kells76]

That's OK -- just getting a better picture.

So it's essentially an individual T for your W. Is your W going voluntarily? Sorry if you've clarified before and I missed it.

Ultimately, though, whoever the T is for, and whoever goes to appointments, I'm thinking about this:

The first therapy appointment is Wednesday, and boy is she upset.  Projecting, ignoring, angry, full of spice.  I assume she is feeling the heat, so to speak.

That spotlight is on her: what's she thinking, what's going on inside her head, what's she feeling, what's she doing.

How are you feeling before T? What do you hope for? How do you plan to do some work in T to improve/change what you can on your end?

It can be a balancing act to be coping with a lot of shame and not to let that be a reason we don't take risks to try to improve things on our end. Believe me, I know.

So asking about you isn't to increase shame or make it a "you should be doing/thinking/feeling X" situation. It does give you an opportunity to notice where your focus is, without judgment. (It's a win-win: you practice putting the spotlight on yourself, and you get to practice declining to accept the shame feelings as you neutrally notice without judging).

Any of that resonating with you, or am I off target?

[captain5024]

Is your W going voluntarily?

That spotlight is on her: what's she thinking, what's going on inside her head, what's she feeling, what's she doing.

How are you feeling before T? What do you hope for? How do you plan to do some work in T to improve/change what you can on your end?

So asking about you isn't to increase shame or make it a "you should be doing/thinking/feeling X" situation. It does give you an opportunity to notice where your focus is, without judgment. (It's a win-win: you practice putting the spotlight on yourself, and you get to practice declining to accept the shame feelings as you neutrally notice without judging).

Any of that resonating with you, or am I off target?

She is going voluntarily.  It's not comfortable for her, but she sees the need to go.  I have told her several times if she does not take her mental health seriously and work on improving it, the chance of reconciliation is 0%.  The only way the reconciliation is possible is if she attends therapy and makes it a priority and a commitment.  There is no gun to her head, and quite frankly if she walked out the door and didn't return I would accept that decision without a fight at this point in time.

Therapy is a win-win, I agree.  I don't have many goals at this point...we will see where this takes us.  I enjoy therapy because it has done so much to make my life and mental state much less "diseased".

I do think the focus should be mostly on my spouse at this point in time.  She hasn't dealt with the BPD stuff in a frank manner.  Time's up!

[captain5024]

As for as my goals in therapy:

1. If/when I am still "making things worse", I want to stop that.

2.  I have a boundary that I do not tolerate verbal abuse.  I want to make sure I am not reflecting the same abuse back to her, I want to stay true to my values and boundaries -- for both of us.

My body is telling me it is worned out and I'm well aware I am in a very unhealthy situation and woud be much better off ALONE at this point in time.  While that may change in the future and therapy may help, I'm well aware the relationship is currently not giving me what I need or want.

[captain5024]

We had the therapy meeting today.  I was happy the therapist did a good job and I maintained my cool, even though my blood was boiling inside.

I was content that my spouse finally was stuck in a room and had to hear about all the episodes she has had.

I was very frustrated with her responses.  The therapist at one point asked her for evidence for her accusations, and even though she could provide none (she had to keep her source "secret", she said) she continued to babble in circular conversations, accusations, rage, etc.  It was very sad to see, and if I had any denial about her mental illness I certainly don't now.

I am now beginning to prepare for the divorce as my spouse refuses to seek further treatment or apologize to my friend, whom she sent unsolicited nasty texts a few weeks ago.  She broke a boundary being destructive with my employment and friendships.  This is a no-no for me.

How long before I should file divorce?  Should I give her an opportunity to change her mind?

Perhaps this should be moved to the other group...I'm no longer pursuing bettering the relationship.

[kells76]

Hey... sorry to hear how things are shaking out. Maybe it's a strange mixture of relief -- to see the mental illness going on out in the open -- and regret for how the relationship has broken?

There's a wide range of BPD intensity and behavior. Just because some couples can make it work doesn't mean that all couples can, as the behaviors are on a spectrum and it sounds like your W is not able to be well at this point.

How long before I should file divorce?  Should I give her an opportunity to change her mind?

Often, when we've been in a relationship where BPD is in the mix, we lose touch with our own feelings, needs, and desires. We keep the spotlight on the pwBPD -- their drama, their rollercoaster, their unpredictability, trying to control or manage them.

Getting back in touch with what we think, how we feel, and what we need is important. We need to learn to be active choicemakers taking responsibility for our choices, versus passive or reactive responders numbed away from what's going on inside of us.

Focusing on someone else with big emotions can mean we don't have to feel our own feelings or think our own thoughts. And our feelings and thoughts can be uncomfortable or distressing.

So another way of looking at your question would be: what are your thoughts about the process? Given what you know about her, do you think her changing her mind would be something meaningful? Ultimately, what would you want to do in order to be able to look back on your choices and say, "I acted with integrity and without trying to 'teach her a lesson' or be petty or vengeful.' There might be a lot of options for how that looks. Maybe you wait one week and that's coherent -- maybe you wait one year. It's less about exactly what you do and more about deciding how you want to act to be in line with your own values.

Perhaps this should be moved to the other group...I'm no longer pursuing bettering the relationship.

I'll invite you to start a thread on the "Conflicted About Continuing, Divorcing/Custody, Co-parenting" board. Feel free to link back to this thread if you want to give some context. Let me know if you have any issues starting a thread over there; I'm happy to help.

[captain5024]

Once again thank you for the wonderful reply.

It was a bit of relief and validation to see a professional see my spouse in this state, yes.  It was also good for her feet to be held to the fire a bit and see what woud happen. 

This is a predictable pattern, but this time I'm behaving somewhat differently and being more persistent in my desire for change.  She's also never been pushed into a corner (so to speak) by a professional, so that's new territory.  I assume she will at some point submit to my requirements to continue the relationship, however I will plan that that will never happen -- because my boundaries have been broken and I have the following value:

It is not her fault she is BPD, but it is her responsibility.  If a spouse suggests the other spouse is mentally unhealthy and needs help, it is the requirement of the spouse to take the consideration seriously and get help.  (Assuming this is done with loving kindness).

I don't think I'm being vengeful at all, it's terribly sad to be quite frank.  It's so upsetting to see someone like that, in such a safe and professional setting.  I don't wish her any harm, but more importantly I don't want her to continue harming me.

I'll give her a week or two, but continue to retain a lawyer.  As luck would have it our A/C failed last night in this East Coast heat -- so we must sleep in the same bedroom with a mini-A/C unit.  I do think things will remain civil.  Here is hoping for cooler weather...

[captain5024]

Once again thank you for the wonderful reply.

It was a bit of relief and validation to see a professional see my spouse in this state, yes.  It was also good for her feet to be held to the fire a bit and see what woud happen. 

This is a predictable pattern, but this time I'm behaving somewhat differently and being more persistent in my desire for change.  She's also never been pushed into a corner (so to speak) by a professional, so that's new territory.  I assume she will at some point submit to my requirements to continue the relationship, however I will plan that that will never happen -- because my boundaries have been broken and I have the following value:

It is not her fault she is BPD, but it is her responsibility.  If a spouse suggests the other spouse is mentally unhealthy and needs help, it is the requirement of the spouse to take the consideration seriously and get help.  (Assuming this is done with loving kindness).

I don't think I'm being vengeful at all, it's terribly sad to be quite frank.  It's so upsetting to see someone like that, in such a safe and professional setting.  I don't wish her any harm, but more importantly I don't want her to continue harming me.

I'll give her a week or two, but continue to retain a lawyer.  As luck would have it our A/C failed last night in this East Coast heat -- so we must sleep in the same bedroom with a mini-A/C unit.  I do think things will remain civil.  Here is hoping for cooler weather...

A day or two after I wrote this, she became a different woman and has been since.  She apologized (sort of) to my friend and decided to enter therapy.  Sometimes with me, sometimes not. 

In retrospect, I think what I witnessed at our first therapy session was an extinction burst. 

I've been told it would be good to be "less reactive" and to work on not making things worse.  This is not the first time I've been told this.

[kells76]

I've been told it would be good to be "less reactive" and to work on not making things worse.  This is not the first time I've been told this.

What do you think about that?

[captain5024]

What do you think about that?

I think being less reactive is as important as my spouses mental health improvement.   

[captain5024]

Progress is being made, I think, a little.

My spouse did not attend her therapy appointment this week because she didn't feel well.  I think she was legitimately sick.

After that missed appointment my spouse seemed generally pissed off, passive aggressive, etc.  Yesterday I asked her if something was bothering her, if she felt upset, scared or nervous about something.  She went into a long diatribe blaming myself, her Mom (not present), my children (not present), friends (not present) with attacks that did not make sense.  I tried to redirect her to her feelings, but that didn't work.  She started to raise her voice which is not acceptable to me, so I told her when she is ready to talk calmly and respectfully I'm ready, but for now I'm going for a bikeride.  Which I did, and it was a really nice 2 hours.

When I came back I invited her to an outdoor car show that evening, as something to do.  She was calm and we sat by an outdoor fire when we got back home and she was able to speak and act calmly the rest of the night.

In the past, the above scenario was likely ot result in a potential breakup and at the very least 2 days of not talking and a lot of resentment and anger.

My not reacting, maintaining the boundary and not leaving seemed to help -- quite a bit.

It does frustrate me that her feelings of insecurity and anger are not directly accessible -- the projection is a waste of energy and extremely toxic.  Attempting to extract those feelings or resolve the BPD in that moment doesn't help, however.  Frustrating.

[captain5024]

I wish I had better news to report.

My spouse does not take therapy seriously or go consistently, which is unfortunate because when she does attend her mind definitely improves.  The change is noticeable.

My spouse said she would be in charge of planning for some home repairs and improvements.  Contractors were hired, but she never did her share of the planning and work, as she said she would.  This caused a lot of problems and delays and possibly a total cancellation of the project.  I called her out on this and since then the relationship has been bad.

In retrospect she should have never been in charge of the project.  She doesn't have the disposition to handle such a task.  In retrospect it did no good to call her out on her failings and irresponsibility. 

She has been really nasty and unpleasant the last week.  I'm happy I haven't respond to her "little knives".  I ask her if she is comfortable, if she needs something...but the attacks and criticisms go unanswered.   I'll listen, then carry on with my day as I normally would.

I make a list every morning of the chores I have for the day and the things I want to get done.  That way she can't disrupt the rational and healthy plan I have for myself.

The pain I have is that when she behaves this way the love I have slowly gets chipped away more and more.  As long as I acknowledge this disappointment, the pain does not turn into suffering.  It's sad to see someone destroy themselves and their future...but it helps me to acknowledge this is the result of her thoughts and behavior. 

At times like this I do wish she would fly away, forever.