Figuring out why I attract BPD Pt. 2

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Link back to original thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357641.0

I notice the term "codependent" gets tossed around a lot, not so much here but certainly in other places where I've read about BPD (etc.) and people who get involved with those who have it.

I do attend CoDA meetings; however, as I previously indicated to LNL, I think my codependent traits were more a trauma response to CPTSD (very mild) to being treated by my wife in a certain way.  While I do not feel or perceive myself as being a victim of DV the therapists I dealt with and the law does too.  Both women I've been with have been reported by someone other than myself.  One had 57+ criminal charges brought against her - the exgf, the other was not acted upon - my wife.

The definition of codependence has changed a lot over the years.  Some here seem to think the last set of definitions that were considered for inclusion in the DSM III in the 1980's, some 4+ decades ago defines what codependence is.  I myself, am using the current list on the current CoDA website that is not described in the DSM V which I find to be more helpful for my situation which is very different from the 1980's version.

I'm not going to argue that doesn't happen or can't be an issue. It might even be the case most of the time. I just think sometimes it's not, and in some ways, using the term shifts some of the blame, if that's the right word, to the partner. From what I can tell, the partner is often a victim.

I am not interested in who to blame for the issues with my pwBPD nor myself.  However, I am very much interested in methods that will correct the issue in a fair, and consistent way that doesn't victimize or blame anyone.  I am very much of the mindset of owning my own stuff and being responsible for my own actions, just I want my pwBPD to own their own stuff and be responsible for their own actions as well.

For the first three years before I was even aware of what BPD was, I was blamed for my partner's issues, I was defined as the problem by both my wife and her therapists (as I did not counter my wife's distortedly false narratives - she was the victim of my behavior and they were my persecutor in the drama triangle.

If anything, I see my wife is the victim of her own mind's dysregulation, as that is the nature of having a PD.  So, when she lashed out at me, exhibiting classic symptoms of BPD, I knew she could not control herself, so I had a policy of 'radical acceptance' that it was her mind on overload lashing out to me, even though it seemed real to her at the time, I knew it to be a gross exaggeration, and I would not let those dysregulated thoughts bother me that much as her regulated behaviors told me that she loved me.  

However, I did attempt to get her to understand her behaviors that she now knows as being a gross exaggeration through extensive therapy when she was no longer dysregulated and at baseline, even though she is still quite moody at times.

So, here's the thing. If you're around a lot of people, say, in your job or your social life and you're reasonably attractive -- and attraction is defined differently by different people -- you're probably going to draw some people with mental or emotional issues. That possibility might increase depending on your job or social circles.

For instance, if you work in an arts field or something involving social work or the like, you're probably going to encounter more people with mental or emotional issues simply as a matter of course.

I agree with your observation, and have learned to compensate for this version of reality with strong and consistent boundaries.

And the thing I've noticed about women with BPD (etc.) and also read in so many posts is they are attractive. Mine certainly was, and she'd made an excellent living at one point dancing because of it. Even when she was at her worst, her physical beauty was inescapable. I used to marvel that someone who took so many medications and obviously put herself into traumatic or even risky situations nonetheless seemed to suffer no meaningful changes in the quality of her appearance (though her demeanor and such would change).

While I have observed this as well; however, the women I have dated to not fall into the 'exceptionally attractive' category; however, the ones that have hit on me recently are much more attractive and exude a lot more vibes of not being mentally stable.  I do like to look at their physical beauty, perhaps this is one of the reasons why they interact with me.  

Perhaps the most recent one with fluorescent pink hair (I'm not kidding on the color) was striking in her own way and caught my eye a bit too long - who knows what makes them approach me, but I do find it a bit unsettling.

So, maybe some people attract "BPD" more than others because of something about them. Or maybe some people are just around more BPD people, and they find themselves drawn to those among them who are attractive, so it becomes more of an odds situation than one about personality or predilection.

Maybe.  I do find myself drawn to physical beauty - and the ones that approach me and overshare tend to match this profile, even though I myself am technically morbidly obese by my weight; however, I am built similar to a pro-wrestler of yesteryear or a football defensive end today in the NFL at 6'2" & 300 pounds and meet these ridiculous height/etc requirements that are circulating on social media are more often than not looking for a sugar daddy than a serious relationship - other than the 'eye candy' beauty aspect, I am not interested in the rest of it even though the ones without realistic boundaries are attracted to me for an apparent differing set of reasons.

Thanks for sharing your perspective, it has given me some more insight into what I am attracted to.

[SaltyDawg]

Link back to original thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=357641.0

I notice the term "codependent" gets tossed around a lot, not so much here but certainly in other places where I've read about BPD (etc.) and people who get involved with those who have it.

I do attend CoDA meetings; however, as I previously indicated to LNL, I think my codependent traits were more a trauma response to CPTSD (very mild) to being treated by my wife in a certain way.  While I do not feel or perceive myself as being a victim of DV the therapists I dealt with and the law does too.  Both women I've been with have been reported by someone other than myself.  One had 57+ criminal charges brought against her - the exgf, the other was not acted upon - my wife.

The definition of codependence has changed a lot over the years.  Some here seem to think the last set of definitions that were considered for inclusion in the DSM III in the 1980's, some 4+ decades ago defines what codependence is.  I myself, am using the current list on the current CoDA website that is not described in the DSM V which I find to be more helpful for my situation which is very different from the 1980's version.

I'm not going to argue that doesn't happen or can't be an issue. It might even be the case most of the time. I just think sometimes it's not, and in some ways, using the term shifts some of the blame, if that's the right word, to the partner. From what I can tell, the partner is often a victim.

I am not interested in who to blame for the issues with my pwBPD nor myself.  However, I am very much interested in methods that will correct the issue in a fair, and consistent way that doesn't victimize or blame anyone.  I am very much of the mindset of owning my own stuff and being responsible for my own actions, just I want my pwBPD to own their own stuff and be responsible for their own actions as well.

For the first three years before I was even aware of what BPD was, I was blamed for my partner's issues, I was defined as the problem by both my wife and her therapists (as I did not counter my wife's distortedly false narratives - she was the victim of my behavior and they were my persecutor in the drama triangle.

If anything, I see my wife is the victim of her own mind's dysregulation, as that is the nature of having a PD.  So, when she lashed out at me, exhibiting classic symptoms of BPD, I knew she could not control herself, so I had a policy of 'radical acceptance' that it was her mind on overload lashing out to me, even though it seemed real to her at the time, I knew it to be a gross exaggeration, and I would not let those dysregulated thoughts bother me that much as her regulated behaviors told me that she loved me.  

However, I did attempt to get her to understand her behaviors that she now knows as being a gross exaggeration through extensive therapy when she was no longer dysregulated and at baseline, even though she is still quite moody at times.

So, here's the thing. If you're around a lot of people, say, in your job or your social life and you're reasonably attractive -- and attraction is defined differently by different people -- you're probably going to draw some people with mental or emotional issues. That possibility might increase depending on your job or social circles.

For instance, if you work in an arts field or something involving social work or the like, you're probably going to encounter more people with mental or emotional issues simply as a matter of course.

I agree with your observation, and have learned to compensate for this version of reality with strong and consistent boundaries.

And the thing I've noticed about women with BPD (etc.) and also read in so many posts is they are attractive. Mine certainly was, and she'd made an excellent living at one point dancing because of it. Even when she was at her worst, her physical beauty was inescapable. I used to marvel that someone who took so many medications and obviously put herself into traumatic or even risky situations nonetheless seemed to suffer no meaningful changes in the quality of her appearance (though her demeanor and such would change).

While I have observed this as well; however, the women I have dated to not fall into the 'exceptionally attractive' category; however, the ones that have hit on me recently are much more attractive and exude a lot more vibes of not being mentally stable.  I do like to look at their physical beauty, perhaps this is one of the reasons why they interact with me.  

Perhaps the most recent one with fluorescent pink hair (I'm not kidding on the color) was striking in her own way and caught my eye a bit too long - who knows what makes them approach me, but I do find it a bit unsettling.

So, maybe some people attract "BPD" more than others because of something about them. Or maybe some people are just around more BPD people, and they find themselves drawn to those among them who are attractive, so it becomes more of an odds situation than one about personality or predilection.

Maybe.  I do find myself drawn to physical beauty - and the ones that approach me and overshare tend to match this profile, even though I myself am technically morbidly obese by my weight; however, I am built similar to a pro-wrestler of yesteryear or a football defensive end today in the NFL at 6'2" & 300 pounds and meet these ridiculous height/etc requirements that are circulating on social media are more often than not looking for a sugar daddy than a serious relationship - other than the 'eye candy' beauty aspect, I am not interested in the rest of it even though the ones without realistic boundaries are attracted to me for an apparent differing set of reasons.

Thanks for sharing your perspective, it has given me some more insight into what I am attracted to.

[Notwendy]

I think we all look at attractive people. The entertainment industry knows this- our movie and TV stars are all very attractive. That's what sells .

Attractive people tend to get attention. I wonder if the combination of being very attractive and having a PD has an affect on someone's behavior? Maybe they didn't develop other aspects of themselves if they got their attention needs met due to their appearance?

Even if someone is very attractive, if they have BPD, they may have a poor self image. It may be that someone with BPD seeks attention from a man- as a way to boost their poor self image- even if they have no intention of going further? Maybe being married or not isn't a concern- attention is attention.

[EyesUp]

Even if you take "attractive" and the gender aspect out of the equation, it still holds:

If someone has BPD, they may have a poor self image. It may be that someone with BPD seeks attention as a way to boost their self image- even if they have no intention of going further? Maybe being married or not isn't a concern- attention is attention.

This is 100% true for NPD, which we understand to overlap with BPD.

[seekingtheway]

Even if someone is very attractive, if they have BPD, they may have a poor self image. It may be that someone with BPD seeks attention from a man- as a way to boost their poor self image- even if they have no intention of going further? Maybe being married or not isn't a concern- attention is attention.

This rings true to me – that someone who is in need of a lot of validation and attention in order for them to feel a sense of themselves/feel good about themselves – is going to go and search for that attention wherever they can find it. And I guess if there's a moment where they register someone's open demeanour or interest in them, it simply presents a potential opportunity to get more of this attention?

I tend to be a bit guarded in public and will take a minute to assess someone before I relax into a random interaction. People can sense that about me I think... I take a while to warm up. But it does tend to keep any unwanted attention at bay.

[SaltyDawg]

if they have BPD, they may have a poor self image. It may be that someone with BPD seeks attention from a man- as a way to boost their poor self image- even if they have no intention of going further? Maybe being married or not isn't a concern- attention is attention.

Well, this holds partially true for my wife.  I did find her attractive, she thought she was ugly, and said as much.  So I described her as a 'diamond in the rough' [which implied that she just needed a little polish] - not exactly a compliment, but not an insult either; however, it did resonate for her and she liked that description as she had poor self image as well.

However, she did have every intention of going further, and proceeded to seduce me on the first date - just as the previous BPD/NPD/+ exgf did.  As those were the 2nd and 3rd women with whom I had 'sexual relations' with, I didn't know that this was too fast, as I little to reference it against - they didn't teach this aspect in school (they should when the sex-ed portion is being taught) when  I went back in the 1980's - and from what our DD has shared, this still hasn't changed as of a few years ago.  I was way too naive of what was too fast back then, and I did enjoy being taken advantage of in this manner, as I too enjoy being on the receiving end of pleasurable attention.

This rings true to me – that someone who is in need of a lot of validation and attention in order for them to feel a sense of themselves/feel good about themselves – is going to go and search for that attention wherever they can find it. And I guess if there's a moment where they register someone's open demeanour or interest in them, it simply presents a potential opportunity to get more of this attention?

I tend to be a bit guarded in public and will take a minute to assess someone before I relax into a random interaction. People can sense that about me I think... I take a while to warm up. But it does tend to keep any unwanted attention at bay.

Who says you can't teach an 'old dawg new tricks'?  I'm learning to be more guarded and I'm in my 50's.

[Tangled mangled]

I think we all look at attractive people. The entertainment industry knows this- our movie and TV stars are all very attractive. That's what sells .

Attractive people tend to get attention. I wonder if the combination of being very attractive and having a PD has an affect on someone's behavior? Maybe they didn't develop other aspects of themselves if they got their attention needs met due to their appearance?

Even if someone is very attractive, if they have BPD, they may have a poor self image. It may be that someone with BPD seeks attention from a man- as a way to boost their poor self image- even if they have no intention of going further? Maybe being married or not isn't a concern- attention is attention.

Explains why my mum was entitled to her horrible behaviour because everyone should treat her like a trophy. She didn’t develop other areas of her life. Wasn’t that great a teacher as she wanted people to believe. Pretty privilege didn’t get her her past her 40s. I saw a picture of her on Facebook, she’s now an overweight old lady who looks 20 older than her real age.

It’s possible that pwBPD are above average in attractiveness- I’ve observed they mostly have a carefully crafted image- the investment in self is superficial.

[zachira]

People with BPD and other disordered people often have a very crafty cultivated public image. This public image falls apart in close relationships and under stressful situations like the challenges of aging. Certainly this type of person uses what they have: whether it is a charming personality, good looks, youth, intelligence, money, power, etc., to get others to do what they want including buying into their carefully crafted false persona.

[seekingtheway]

People with BPD and other disordered people often have a very crafty cultivated public image. This public image falls apart in close relationships and under stressful situations like the challenges of aging. Certainly this type of person uses what they have: whether it is a charming personality, good looks, youth, intelligence, money, power, etc., to get others to do what they want including buying into their carefully crafted false persona.

That certainly happened to me - my ex is a much-loved member of the community I live in. He does amazing work and has a very visible social media presence where he talks about values like integrity, respecting women, taking care of the earth and animals, community, healing, connection... many things that I care about deeply. I think that's a big part of what attracted me and kept me invested... and I overlooked what was beginning to unfold in the relationship because... look who he really is and what he believes, it's right there on his social pages and in his work. I still have trouble separating my experience of him with my community's experience of him, and it also means I can't feel safe sharing what happened with anyone outside of my very close friend circle... I would be disbelieved and rejected. So I keep face and pretend it's all okay (to him and to everyone else) as a matter of survival in my own community. Which really irks me. But my psychologist validated this approach - she gave an analogy of working sled dogs who have a huge fight, but then they need to learn to walk together regardless. I'm faking the peace till I actually find it, but some level of peace in community can be important.

Sorry Salty - total sidetrack there.

[seekingtheway]

Actually - this post has got in my head because it's made me think back at how much of my attraction for my ex was based around his very carefully curated public persona. And two of my close friends went through highly toxic relationships with men who are similar - community men with very strong/outspoken values and a very carefully put-together social presence. So this is something I clearly need to watch out for as I begin to date again because it could be a sign of someone who needs external validation in order for them to feel okay in themselves.

Bringing it somewhat on track again - I think we all enjoy pleasurable attention, that's just part of our human wiring. But the level we need that attention is the key thing to look at? Do we feel good about ourselves regardless of who is looking at us or paying us attention?

I'm guessing that almost everyone on the boards here has experienced how incredible it felt to be idealised at the beginning of our relationships. And that idealisation can fill a hole that we hold in our own self-esteem and mean we stay open to someone or something that is not healthy or a good match for us... because we are perhaps experiencing a level of attention that we ourselves have been starved of in our own lives.

[Pensive1]

I think the degree of a crafted public image varies tremendously across people with BPD. My adoptive mother, who raised me, was seen as a saint by most people (with a public image that was markedly at variance with how she really was). On the other hand, my BPD ex doesn't really present a false, crafted public image. And the same is true of a BPD quasi-friend of mine. And, as EyesUp noted, a false public persona is characteristic of NPD, so can vary with the degree of narcissism in someone with BPD.

A somewhat related phenomenon is the degree of a chameleon effect among people with BPD. I heard a therapist provide an interesting potential explanation for this - that people with BPD often have a lot of dissociation going on, and consequently can't really tell how they actually feel or what they personally like, and consequently take on the preferences and norms of whomever they're with.

seekingtheway: "I'm guessing that almost everyone on the boards here has experienced how incredible it felt to be idealised at the beginning of our relationships."
Yeah, this seems so universal in a relationship with someone with BPD (or someone with NPD). I have a friend who used to have DID, and exclusively dated people with NPD, in part to get the high of that idealization experience, dumping each one as soon as there were signs that the idealization phase was ending.

[livednlearned]

I think we all enjoy pleasurable attention, that's just part of our human wiring. But the level we need that attention is the key thing to look at? Do we feel good about ourselves regardless of who is looking at us or paying us attention?

I'm guessing that almost everyone on the boards here has experienced how incredible it felt to be idealised at the beginning of our relationships. And that idealisation can fill a hole that we hold in our own self-esteem and mean we stay open to someone or something that is not healthy or a good match for us... because we are perhaps experiencing a level of attention that we ourselves have been starved of in our own lives.

seekingtheway, if this thread were a book I would highlight this whole section  

It takes vulnerability to make a connection like this. Vulnerability is often too painful for many people trying to make sense of abusive relationships.

It draws a helpful line between "figuring out why I attract BPD" to "figuring out why I respond(ed) to BPD."

[seekingtheway]

Yes, I can see why it's a painful place to go to - it's easy enough to use a magnifying glass to observe what someone else's patterns are and what they're doing wrong, but not as easy to look at our own stuff with the same depth of analysis. And some of our stuff sits in the shadow – or emotional blind spots, which I think you said before – so you just can't see it on your own. Which is why it's helpful to go through it all with a professional who can hold you well in that experience...

[SaltyDawg]

It draws a helpful line between "figuring out why I attract BPD" to "figuring out why I respond(ed) to BPD."

LNL,

   I think "figuring out why I respond to BPD" is absolutely golden.

   I do think that a lot are attracted to me, as a 'caretaker', as I am quite involved with my children.  For now it is predominately my son who is in baseball, and to a lesser extent our daughter too who is exerting her freedom and is in early college.  While at the ball field, previously many of the moms would wonder where my wife is, when she only works limited hours in a 'part-time' capacity.  I've noticed on the practice fields the ratio is about 90% moms, and about 10% dads, of the dads most, but not all of whom are the coaches.  While I have kept statistics, I am by no means a qualified coach, and defer to those dads, leaving me with the unintended consequence of being available to chat with the moms.

As part of my plan, with my therapist, was to expose my children to healthy non-BPD behaviors, and as a natural consequences of this, I would go out of my way to arrange for playdates with those children and their respective parents, most of whom were moms, as they were the ones at the practice field.  In return, I would offer to take care of my son's friends too - and care-take their children too like I do my own in public spaces, predominately parks.  This had the unintentional consequence of allowing me to chat more readily with the other moms - some of whom had a propensity to overshare.

   I do know that I am easily approachable and can talk just about anyone on any topic under the sun, and I formerly lacked a lot of boundaries around what I would talk about unless it was clearly delineated for me (in my job), as I was a people pleaser, and would mirror a similar level of sharing of what was being shared with me, much like borderline does, just not to the same degree or intensity - I generally did not volunteer information, unless someone shared that level of information with me first, and I didn't see this as an issue at that time - however, now I do.

   I was often complimented on how I would take care of things, be on time, and be very involved, and I've been told by many that I am an excellent listener.  I would thank them, and they would expand to wishing their own husband or boyfriend was like me.  Some have even gone as far as to point out what I do for my wife and children to their own husbands, and wish they did what I have done much to their husbands disdain.  I've since learned how to be a lot more tactful when being approached in this manner, and recognize and downplay, so-to-speak the more sensitive topics like home-life situations that they have vented to me about.  Many are looking for someone to take care of not only their children but them too and that puts me in awkward situations.

   I have shifted to thanking them for the compliment, but, unless they pry, I generally will limit my engagement in this line of conversation and change the topics to more mundane things such as scheduling, sports, school activities and the weather, as I now perceive it to be an opening or a pathway to me being used as a sympathetic ear with active listening skills who will validate a lot of their feelings, much like I have learned to to with my own wife in the extreme with good success and some of my volunteer work.  I have also shifted into asking my wife to come along, and she is now accompanying me a lot more, so the other parents aren't quite as open to approaching me (as my wife is now present and my wife will dominate whenever she can - that's another, but different issue), and I have increased the size of my wedding band so it is much more noticeable which has resulted in a decrease, but has not eliminated being approached in this manner.  While I have changed this as much as practical, I find that it still will not stop everyone who wishes to approach me - the rest will have to be dealt with with good healthy boundaries on my part.

   Now that my wife also attends the practices, my wife has no issue in volunteering me out into caretaking the other children as well as that allows her to influence the other parents in a manner that she seeks, as she wants to put strings on it for transactional reciprocity, which at times can complicate things and has made it her idea - this too is another topic to contend with.

   Currently there is still one BPD person - to which I make deprecating jokes about to my wife behind that person's back, and my wife seems to be very comforted by my comments so she is not as threatened by her unlike the other ones that had previously come up to me in front of her.  I am also keeping my distance with healthy LC (limited contact) with that person as well.

   As I indicated earlier, you can teach this 'old dawg new tricks' and this is what I have learned - I hope others can learn from it as well.

   Take care.

SD

[zachira]

I know a person who had a beautiful 4 year old daughter. I commented on how attractive she was to her mother and the mother said to never say that again, that the daughter was already becoming quite vain constantly looking in the mirror. The daughter is now a beautiful modest young lady. She might have had a PD if she came from a narcissistic family in which the parents valued her good looks as something that reflected positively on them.

[Skip]

SD.

Have you considered "Disproportionate attractiveness".

People with low self-esteem often (consciously or subconsciously) surround themselves with people who will hold them in high esteem - put them on a "pedestal".

When a 25-year-old girl flirts with a 50-year-old man and the man engages, he is much more likely to be awestruck than when he was 25.

If a person who is a "9" on an attractive scale is flirty with an not-so-attractive incel, he is going to be mesmerized.

Same for a sexy body with an overweight guy.

Rich person with a person struggling to get by.

Extrovert with an introvert...

Popular with an unpopular...

BPD relationships are often disproportionate on some level, and this is often where the "people with BPD are beautiful" comes from.

[Notwendy]

On the topic of appearance- I know that not all attractive women have BPD and not all women with BPD are attractive but there seems to be the combination of both that makes them very attractive. I think if someone has a poor sense of self, and they are pretty- this becomes their "superpower" in a way. If someone is attractive and has a solid sense of self- they may emphasis other qualities that get them attentions as well, like academic skills, or sports as they grow up. All kids like to get praise for what they are good at.

People frequently have told me - since I was a child, that my BPD mother is beautiful- and this seemed to be her most complimented attribute. It would make sense then that it was also her most developed attribute growing up as well since she got attention for it. She has a sort of magnetism to her and men were drawn to her. What I noticed later is that it is a certain "type" of man, a caretaker type who seems to be drawn to her.

I know someone who seems like a younger version of my mother.  She's one of my friends' daughters. I have known her since she was a small child, and she's always been strikingly pretty. I didn't notice any behaviors as a child that would make me wonder about BPD. In her teens she began to act out and got diagnosed with BPD. She seems to have a similar magnetic effect on men.

I also think being a pretty child gets someone a "pass" on their behavior. I think people tend to assign positive attributes to attractive people.

I wonder if this "magnetism" is a developed skill for someone with BPD,  a result of being noticed in childhood, or is this an attraction aspect that mainly attracts men with certain characteristics? I have seen other posts here that their BPD partner had this magnetism with them- but why is this? Seems to fit with attracting BPD- but also being attracted to this quality.

Thoughts?

[zachira]

What makes a person a magnet for disordered people? People with healthy boundaries communicate this and disordered people quickly give up on having a relationship with them. We attract BPD when we have poor boundaries with disordered people and often the biggest mistake is to repeatedly give a disordered
person endless second chances.   

[SaltyDawg]

SD.

Have you considered "Disproportionate attractiveness".

No, I haven't - most of the women who have approached me are all over the spectrum on attractiveness to me - ranging from 1 to a 9 or somewhere in between, this includes the variables of age, beauty, physical fitness, common interests, personality, and perceived wealth.  However, when looking at it from the perspective of the other person looking at me, while I have not considered that, until you mentioned it - as I perceive myself to be a bit humble, average looking, a bit overweight, but not hurting in personality or perceived wealth.  Looking at it from that perspective makes me feel just a little bit uncomfortable if I am analysing myself as the person to be idolized by others and figuring out why I am the one being idolized by others as I have really not done this consciously until now.

People with low self-esteem often (consciously or subconsciously) surround themselves with people who will hold them in high esteem - put them on a "pedestal".

While I do strive not to put anyone on a pedestal - I predominately do put my children on a pedestal with my own children, and even my borderline wife too, as all of them are have been on highest honor roll in school and two of the three valedictorian, and all are self-made and excel in their respective areas of interest.  All are very good at what they do.  [sounds like a lot of absolutes, but everything can be independently verified and 'fact' checked with newspaper articles, report cards, trophies, certificates, etc.]  I do validate my children with compliments, and my wife, on what each of them are good, or if they do a good deed, or something that is appreciated.  However, I do avoid being critical, and for a time I was way too non-confrontational on things I didn't like, or things they did that were not appropriate.  In this way we are blessed, and many others have said so too.

When a 25-year-old girl flirts with a 50-year-old man and the man engages, he is much more likely to be awestruck than when he was 25.

If a person who is a "9" on an attractive scale is flirty with an not-so-attractive incel, he is going to be mesmerized.

Same for a sexy body with an overweight guy.

This has happened to me (I'm the 50-something year old man) and there have been a few 20-somethings flirting with me, both of which my wife knew about, and one she saw and the other she was in very close proximity - this puts my wife on edge big time as she has some attachment issues.  I was not looking for this attention, but it found me.  In both instances, they approached me, and communicated with me without me prompting.  One was at a resort location (age unknown, I just smiled), the other at the ball field (looked like she was in her 20's but verbally indicated she was in her 40's).  I'd say one had the appearance of a model, a high-9, and the other a solid-9 on the physical attractiveness scale by any standard, not just mine.  While I would have liked to look at them more; however, my wife was very much present in both instances, so I couldn't risk triggering her with additional interactions.

I've been told, and I can see the resemblance, I do have the physical appearance and build of "Richard Karn" and have been mistaken for him several times - a TV star who was best known for being the co-star of "Tool Time" with Tim Allen, and also hosted "Family Feud" prior to Steve Harvey.  This too may be a factor in why I attract them - hopefully I am not sounding too vain in this regard.

While I am 'flattered' receiving this attention, I am not by any stretch of the imagination 'mesmerized' by it.

Rich person with a person struggling to get by.

This too is likely an accurate reason why I attract them, as I am definitely not struggling to get by.  I am equally home at a soup kitchen or a 5-star restaurant, and frequent the entire spectrum of eateries, both extremes, depending on my location at the moment and what I am doing - some of the best tasting food and wait staff that will share their passion of cooking can be found in the areas that are struggling.  While I am not hurting by any stretch of the imagination; however, I do not flaunt what I have in front of others either.  I deliberately dress down so I do not attract this kind of attention, and for the most part I haven't projected being better than them.  I prefer to remain humble, and not brag - but I do like to take care of what I do have.  We have two mini vans (one new one old), a low end station wagon (subaru outback, looks like an SUV, oldish), a new sedan, and one american made collector's car from my high-school days.  None of them project wealth.

While my wife, has had her borderline moments of spending sprees, she is also likely OCPD at baseline - one of the OCPD symptoms is "A miserly approach to spending for themselves and others because they see money as something to be saved for future disasters".  So, when my wife is not have a borderline episode she is miserly in her spending, except for her favorite person - when I was loved bombed it was me, then it wasn't, and I might be filling that role again now.  While my spending wasn't miserly, it wasn't cheap either; however, I definitely am "Frugal" - I like a good value for the buck when I spend.  As a result we are not hurting when it comes to our finances.

However, this does attract others who are not as fortunate as I am in this regard. 

Extrovert with an introvert...

Popular with an unpopular...

I am neither an extrovert nor an introvert, neither is my wife for that matter.

I am both popular and unpopular on a multitude of levels - depending on whom you talk to, as is my wife. 

At the risk of sounding like a narcissist, I have been extremely humbled as I literally been idolized as hero by many in the public at large including public officials, or I have been condemned as a villain by a local business, and public officials when I am leading the pushback on their expansion or at work when I am asked to do something illegal and/or in non-compliance with their own rules and standards - it all depends on who you talk to with the exception of my wife where I've been been labelled both ways depending on where her mood swing might be at the moment.

As weird as it sounds when I say it, I do have issues processing this as I seem to have the codependent  low self-esteem pattern where I am "Are embarrassed to receive recognition, praise, or gifts." at https://coda.org/meeting-materials/patterns-and-characteristics-2011/.  I've worked with my therapist on this and other areas, and have divided them to FOO issues, as this one is, as I cannot seem to shake it, or trauma induced by being a comparatively minor DV situation - a lot of progress here, but still have some areas to work on.

"BPD relationships are often disproportionate on some level, and this is often where the "people with BPD are beautiful" comes from.

With the encounters I have had, I do not find this to be the case.  The two my wife definitely knows about were indeed with very beautiful women by any standard and could easily have been the 'eye candy' in TV shows.  The ex that I've dated one that from a societal viewpoint could be considered physically repulsive, I found her to be average or slightly below; however, she was well intentioned, but was not well off at all as she couldn't manage money and was dating me for my money.  I'd say, most are average to slightly above average looking as they took care of themselves physically and ranged from an athletic build to voluptuous with nice curves - my wife is built is the latter.

At that time I first encountered BPD I was a bit idealistic and naive and went for personality only.  My wife, was a close match on my income, as I wanted to eliminate the 'gold digger component' as a lesson learned from the first BPD woman I was with who was likely comorbid with NPD and other mental health issues too.  My wife, if she has any NPD it would be 'communal' as the perfect church lady and perfect volunteer; however, she doesn't do it to seek the credit but is more OCPD related, so I am not really seeing any NPD.  However, when reading the symptoms of all of the PD's she was also a perfect match for OCPD (not OCD even though the names are very similar), a cluster "C" PD - I will talk about this in an upcoming post.

I hope this makes sense.  If you, or anyone else can relate or comment on this, it would be greatly appreciated, as I did learn quite a bit looking at this from this particular perspective, Skip - and this is greatly appreciated.

Take care.

[Skip]

While I am 'flattered' receiving this attention, I am not by any stretch of the imagination 'mesmerized' by it.

SD,

Glad this was helpful.

After reading your response, I might suggest that you are interpreting my examples too literally.

Of course, you are not "mesmerized", you have not engaged the people mentioned in the thread in a romantic relationship. You have only had passing stranger-to-stranger encounters.

But think about it... you have been discussing and dissecting these brief encounters for six (6) months now. For a brief encounter, that is a disproportionate response.

Looking at it from that perspective makes me feel just a little bit uncomfortable if I am analysing myself as the person to be idolized by others and figuring out why I am the one being idolized by others as I have really not done this consciously until now.

Do you think its possible that these encounters are more about the other party getting a an ego stroked or a wound soothed. "Instant gratification" as some people with BPD (or BPD traits) like to call it. Their attraction to you may be simply that they think you will be captivated by them and that will make them feel good in the moment.

This is something far less than idolization (e.g., excessive admiration of or devotion to a person).

I know this is not very flattering and I sense you are looking for something more. For these passing encounters, it might just be people looking for attention and you appearing as someone that will give it.

I would be careful not to draw parallels between these brief encounters and your two long term BPD relationships.

They are not comparable.

For long term relationships, the vast majority of members say they entered these relationship because they were chronically vulnerable (e.g., dysfunctional FOO, first love, social defect, mental issue, addiction) or they were acutely vulnerable (e.g, parent died, divorce, break up, lost job, in foreign culture, etc.). The idealization was incredibly powerful. When we saw the dysfunction and we "looked the other way" in hopes to continue the idealization. In some cases, we desperately sough to replicate the relationship.


We have a 30-something single girl in our community who had something happen in her life and she doesn't date. When she has uncomfortable things happen in her life, she will walk her dog and stop and talk endlessly to the older men in the community. She loves the attention. They are very captivated by her youth and beauty.

There are very eligible guys in the community that are her own age and "equal". She doesn't talk to them.

I know a gall who was very flirty with the manager of the service department where she bought her car. She was an ex-cheerleader and he was a frumpy guy. She would pay attention to him, laugh at his jokes, communicate by personal email, even let him take her to lunch when her car was being serviced. He arranged for her to get a new upgraded sound system, a new drivers seat, running boards, new tires... all surprisingly covered by warranty. When she bought another car at another dealer, she never spoke to him again.

I know a 30-something who is an adopted child from South America. Her adoptive family siblings are all over-achievers, athletic and they all socialize together and try to encourage her to be part of it. She is an underachiever. She has a lot of shame. She prefers to socialize with people where she is, by comparison to them, an overachiever.  She has created (and recreates when she moves) a social network where she very disproportionally smarter, better job, better looking, better car, etc.

[SaltyDawg]

Skip,

After reading your response, I might suggest that you are interpreting my examples too literally.

Perhaps, and perhaps not - some hit a little too close to home - I discussed those, others not so much.

Of course, you are not "mesmerized", you have not engaged the people mentioned in the thread in a romantic relationship. You have only had passing stranger-to-stranger encounters.

Some are passing stranger-stranger encounters, others not and have evolved over the playing season or more.  Parents of children who are on the same team/activity of my children - so I had several interactions with these spanning multiple weeks and some years.  I currently have a neighbor who has raised a lot of red flags with my other neighbors and my wife too.  I am monitoring that situation, as it is fluid but somewhat predictable when looking through a cluster-B lens.

But think about it... you have been discussing and dissecting these brief encounters for six (6) months now. For a brief encounter, that is a disproportionate response.

I can see your point, as I've been talking about a series of encounters for the past five months, one of which is very recent, a few weeks ago, another earlier a couple months ago and others spanning previous years.  The older ones have been processed and dealt with and I only bring up the ones that really affected my wife who is likely BPD and has accused me of 'fu**ing the other moms' and having an emotional affair with a therapist - these accusations have occurred for substantially more than a decade - this is what concerns me the most - her paranoid perception when she is stressed.  While I am a sailor, and I do have a reputation to maintain, and it isn't that kind of stereotypical reputation I would like to have.

My concern is why I am so conditioned to be tuned into this right now as they keep on happening - I strongly suspect I am experiencing a trauma response to my wife's reactions to the encounters she has falsely accused me of.  While I have adjusted my behaviors to an extent in order to appease my wife's paranoia, and these types of encounters have slowed down and lessened by establishing better boundaries (that I didn't have enough of before) as well as redirecting conversation where overhearing is occurring to more mundane and 'safe' topics.  I also suspect, as my wife has learned to become less paranoid (through her therapy), I in response will eventually become less responsive to this and continue with good boundaries on what is appropriate conversation, and to hold a boundary on oversharing.

Do you think its possible that these encounters are more about the other party getting a an ego stroked or a wound soothed. "Instant gratification" as some people with BPD (or BPD traits) like to call it. Their attraction to you may be simply that they think you will be captivated by them and that will make them feel good in the moment.

Some of them, yes.  Some of them, no. 

This is something far less than idolization (e.g., excessive admiration of or devotion to a person).

Some of them do have an admiration of what I am doing for my wife and they want to be treated that way too, and I often help out by carrying chairs/coolers to/from the field - as a gentleman should especially if they are managing a younger sibling too.  On one other occasion, from a very brief encounter, less than an hour, after the conversation, I was told I understood them better than anyone else except perhaps for God - this definitely made me feel uncomfortable.  If being viewed as and compared to a deity is 'something far less than idolization,' then what is that called?

I know this is not very flattering and I sense you are looking for something more. For these passing encounters, it might just be people looking for attention and you appearing as someone that will give it.

You might be on to something here, as I am 'people pleaser', I am willing to return the attention that I am given as it is in my nature to 'give', or at least more so in my past.  I am learning to moderate my amount of giving, learning to set better boundaries, and that is paying off with fewer encounters of this nature. 

I would be careful not to draw parallels between these brief encounters and your two long term BPD relationships.

They are not comparable.

Some of these 'brief encounters' were one-off incidents lasting only a few minutes, while others repeated for months, and even years, one even lasting longer than my first romantic BPD relationship; however, this relationship is on a strictly platonic level.  Likewise the two romantic BPD relationships I have had were also extremely different - one I was not emotionally invested in, and wanted to figure out a way to ethically exit that relationship as fast as I could, and when she cheated for a 2nd time - I left and never looked back.  The other, to whom I am presently married, I am very emotionally invested in it, and I was/am definitely trauma bonded to - the only one where I have developed an unhealthy attachment for.  I am fortunate to have a good therapist who is helping me along with this community, and other sources too such as NAMI, CoDA, etc.  Out of all of these people that I have encountered, the only one I was ever truly mesmerized by was my wife as she ticked all of my boxes for an ideal spouse, and for the most part, she still does - and this hurt so badly when she was not self-aware and splitting me black.

Fortunately, she is now self-aware, and is actively working on herself, even though she had a recent lapse in response to a major stressor at her work.

For long term relationships, the vast majority of members say they entered these relationship because they were chronically vulnerable (e.g., dysfunctional FOO, first love, social defect, mental issue, addiction) or they were acutely vulnerable (e.g, parent died, divorce, break up, lost job, in foreign culture, etc.). The idealization was incredibly powerful. When we saw the dysfunction and we "looked the other way" in hopes to continue the idealization. In some cases, we desperately sough to replicate the relationship.

Thank you for bringing up these observations, here is my self-analysis on this... (which is helpful to combined them in one place even though I have done this individually with my therapist) 

My FOO I would say is mild to average dysfunctional according to my therapist, and I am working through those with my therapist, this included my bio brother's ADHD, but did not include my step brother's severely dysfunctional ASPD as I only knew him as an adult only after my first BPD relationship started.

My first BPD relationship was my 2nd love, and I was still very naive up until about a little over two years ago with my 3rd and current love - I was totally oblivious to serious mental health conditions, even though it was staring me in the face for decades.

Social defect - I am the first generation of European immigrants whos customs were somewhat different than established Americans (also European immigrants from previous generations) - this made me somewhat socially awkward as a child; however, I would not go as far as calling it a 'social defect'; however, this may have made me a bit more vulnerable, even though both share similar values.

No addictions, other than love bombing idealization which was overwhelmingly powerful for me which created a super strong trauma bond - working with my therapist extensively on this one.

Both BPD relationships were the result of a prior break-up where I was vulnerable.

I did lose my mother about 3 years prior to my first BPD relationship, and this too likely had minimal correlation to being in a BPD relationship.

=====

I am curious as to why you put the following examples in the post as none of those examples resonate with me?

We have a 30-something single girl in our community who had something happen in her life and she doesn't date. When she has uncomfortable things happen in her life, she will walk her dog and stop and talk endlessly to the older men in the community. She loves the attention. They are very captivated by her youth and beauty.

There are very eligible guys in the community that are her own age and "equal". She doesn't talk to them.

I know a gall who was very flirty with the manager of the service department where she bought her car. She was an ex-cheerleader and he was a frumpy guy. She would pay attention to him, laugh at his jokes, communicate by personal email, even let him take her to lunch when her car was being serviced. He arranged for her to get a new upgraded sound system, a new drivers seat, running boards, new tires... all surprisingly covered by warranty. When she bought another car at another dealer, she never spoke to him again.

I know a 30-something who is an adopted child from South America. Her adoptive family siblings are all over-achievers, athletic and they all socialize together and try to encourage her to be part of it. She is an underachiever. She has a lot of shame. She prefers to socialize with people where she is, by comparison to them, an overachiever.  She has created (and recreates when she moves) a social network where she very disproportionally smarter, better job, better looking, better car, etc.

[SaltyDawg]

Zachira,

   I agree with you.  I too had less than ideal boundaries, and would talk about anything that they wanted to talk about.  I now have the ability to tactfully switch the topic(s) to healthier ones, and I have the ability to say 'no' as well. 

SD

What makes a person a magnet for disordered people? People with healthy boundaries communicate this and disordered people quickly give up on having a relationship with them. We attract BPD when we have poor boundaries with disordered people and often the biggest mistake is to repeatedly give a disordered
person endless second chances.   

[SaltyDawg]

NW,

   I agree with everything you said regarding attractive women [people]; however, in my encounters, while some of them were strikingly beautiful, most were average, and even some below average in appearance.

   Regarding 'super powers' - my wife's is definitely her mind - she is valedictorian smart.

   I have noticed a limited correlation the less intelligent they are the prettier they are - this is from a comparatively small number I've encountered - so I really cannot make that generalization even if it seems to be true.

SD

[SaltyDawg]

EyesUp,

   I would agree with you, especially the the 'attention is attention' part.  Who doesn't like positive attention?  I know I do, and perhaps this might be a component on why they approach me, as they often mirror my desires to start a relationship and I in return would reciprocate the attention they gave to me.

SD

Even if you take "attractive" and the gender aspect out of the equation, it still holds:

If someone has BPD, they may have a poor self image. It may be that someone with BPD seeks attention as a way to boost their self image- even if they have no intention of going further? Maybe being married or not isn't a concern- attention is attention.

This is 100% true for NPD, which we understand to overlap with BPD.

[SaltyDawg]

SeekingTheWay,

   This also rings true for me as well.  I like your tact of being guarded in public, and I suspect I wasn't guarded enough - I am shifting, and it seems to be working well even though there are still a persistent one that doesn't respect boundaries.

SD

This rings true to me – that someone who is in need of a lot of validation and attention in order for them to feel a sense of themselves/feel good about themselves – is going to go and search for that attention wherever they can find it. And I guess if there's a moment where they register someone's open demeanour or interest in them, it simply presents a potential opportunity to get more of this attention?

I tend to be a bit guarded in public and will take a minute to assess someone before I relax into a random interaction. People can sense that about me I think... I take a while to warm up. But it does tend to keep any unwanted attention at bay.

[SaltyDawg]

It’s possible that pwBPD are above average in attractiveness- I’ve observed they mostly have a carefully crafted image- the investment in self is superficial.

Tangled Mangled,

   SeekingTheWay, also expanded on this too.  I too feel that my wife has a carefully crafted public image that she projects to others - being the perfect church lady, being the perfect volunteer for differing social events too.  However, for my wife she seems to be very genuine even though she can get quite moody, as she perceives and is being taken advantage of.  One might think communinal narcissistic tendencies; however, this is not the case in my wife.

   However, I have noticed more of this in some of those that have approached me in the past, especially the ones that were not extremely attractive, they had some other carefully crafted persona as the public face on social media and elsewhere - I know my exgf had this, as she was not that physically attractive.

   Seeking the way, I think this was a good 'sidetrack' as it highlighted other ways a BPD can be 'attractive'.  If they cannot be physically attractive as a supermodel, then they can craft a social image that is very attractive, and that is the case in both of my romantic relationships, although one is genuine (wife) and the other not (exgf) and was quite superficial.

SD