I Think My Ex Had Deep Insecurities and Shame

[jaded7]

I've been thinking about how my ex would take offense at things that just made no sense to me. I'd never experienced
anyone being offended and angered by things I said or did like this, and it made me so confused. I watched a video the other day where
Sam Vaknin explained why cluster B people get angry at you when you offer to do things for them, or suggest ways to help
them out, and he says it's because of the deep shame and inability to deal with it and their deep feeling of being unloveable.

They believe you are trying to manipulate them or lie to them to get something. Or they think they'll be indebted to you if you do something nice.

I thought I'd share some examples here that I experienced with my ex, which I found so confusing. Maybe you have experienced similar things.

*Driving home from a weekend away, long drive and hot day. I ask if she's tired and if so would she like me to take over driving? Anger, telling me "that's patronizing!"

*Invite her to a weekend away for a business meeting, at a lovely historic hotel in Santa Barbara next to the beach. The meeting is a private event with a very famous person and is an honor to be invited. "NO. What am I supposed to do, sit around while you're in meetings all day" Ummm, relax? go to the beach?It's Santa Barbara, with me? Read, get coffee? We can have dinners out together, we can wake up in the morning together?? We'd spend more time together that way than in our normal lives.

*Try to offer her a saltwater float at a really nice place near me, while I join her son to play his new game he's excited about at the Starbucks nearby. She interrupts me before I even get it out with "I've got enough bills to worry about without adding some float!!" I say whoah, whoah whoah...honey...I tell her that I'm trying to give one to her but she cut me off. She ignores and, angry, changes the subject.

*Offer to go to the grocery store for our camping trip, since I know that she keeps a very particular list of food items. I ask her to send me the list and I'll take care of it "You don't want to go grocery shopping!! You're just trying to cover you as*!" "And you're worthless in the grocery store and it will take me longer to fix what you did than to do it myself!!"

*Offer to pick up her sister and niece at the airport since she'll be busy that morning at her son's show. "You're joking." No, I'll pick her up. "Cmon, you fooling with me." No? Explosion..."I've told you you're a shi**y driver and I'm never riding with you again, and neither are my friends and family!!" Stunned, I"m quiet. Then "And you need to come get your kayak from my yard..........put it on your car so people can see you coming!!!"

*Gave her an $85 foot treatment gift certificate for her birthday, consulted many women around town and they all approved. She seemed annoyed, and not happy. And she never used it. I wasted $85. I would have used any gift card anyone gave me, out of respect and to show them I appreciate them.

*Had a special event at a major womens activewear company, made a special effort to save one of the gift bags we had in my business for her with socks, headbands, other trinkets and a huge discount card. Never used it, didn't seem to even like it. And I know she shopped there.

*My coffee shop reopened after many months after a flood. I got her a bag of coffee beans from the grand reopening. She didn't want them.

*Suggest that I have a party at my cool condo in the city, invite some friends and clients over, play some music. She and my friends can meet. "No. I don't want to be around those people. Why would I?"

I could never understand these things.

I think that she has deep, deep insecurities and it comes out as anger when I tried to do something nice for her, or she took it as patronizing

[seekingtheway]

Hi Jaded,

I'm sure you're right - there's no doubt that deep insecurity and shame will have been very strong within your ex. In fact, I think if you dig deep into any toxic behaviours, I think that's where you can eventually trace them back to. And none of that was about you, caused by you, and there's nothing you could do to stop them.

It's clear you tried your best in that relationship, and it sounds like you did so many kind, considerate things for her, and she just couldn't accept that love. She couldn't let it in. She rejected it... and that's as sad for her as it is for you because she's sabotaging her own life and can't stop what she's doing. But yes, reading your list of things, it just reads to me as someone who is simply pushing away love and connection, which would feel confusing and very hurtful for you.

In the right relationship, your desire to connect and share moments and do nice things for each other will be a gift.

[jaded7]

Hi Jaded,

I'm sure you're right - there's no doubt that deep insecurity and shame will have been very strong within your ex. In fact, I think if you dig deep into any toxic behaviours, I think that's where you can eventually trace them back to. And none of that was about you, caused by you, and there's nothing you could do to stop them.

It's clear you tried your best in that relationship, and it sounds like you did so many kind, considerate things for her, and she just couldn't accept that love. She couldn't let it in. She rejected it... and that's as sad for her as it is for you because she's sabotaging her own life and can't stop what she's doing. But yes, reading your list of things, it just reads to me as someone who is simply pushing away love and connection, which would feel confusing and very hurtful for you.

In the right relationship, your desire to connect and share moments and do nice things for each other will be a gift.

I did try my best seekingtheway. Thank you for seeing that. And that's not the full list, not even close.

In these relationships confusion reigns. I would never call someone worthless. I would never not use an expensive gift certificate someone gave me. My goodness.

The only thing I come back to, time and time again, is that her sister told a client of mine that she was worried about me dating her sister, since she is a bad person. Her own sister! Therefore, maybe it wasn't me.

Thank you for your support here, seekingtheway. I know we all have our struggles.

[seekingtheway]

Oh gosh, I think you can definitely be assured that her behaviours are definitely, 100% not your fault. And nothing you did or didn't do was the cause of them.

Ultimately you fell in love with someone who is deeply wounded, and she isn't in control of her patterns or actions. And deep down somewhere in there, she will know that. Just as her sister seems to know it.

It sounds like her behaviour towards you was abusive, demeaning and disrespectful... and I know how much confusion that can cause, and how hard it is to untangle and let go of these things. I know the rumination part of this process is awful. Dr Romani talks about the rumination in a different way to some other experts. It's not something we can fully control, and nor should we try, although we can try and manage its impact on our lives. It makes sense that you're still suffering from the deep impact of your ex's hurtful actions and words, the healing process just isn't quick or linear.

I have watched a few Sam Vatkin videos, and he makes a lot of sense, although he also created a sense of fear and foreboding in me... I do like Dr Romani for her straight-up talking about toxic relationships. But I also like some of the Matthew Hussey videos, because he focuses so much on your own self worth, building yourself into some of such value and worth that you simply won't tolerate anything other than healthy, reciprocal love. I find his content uplifting and hopeful.

By the way, my ex's ex-wife said something similar (which came to me via someone else before I went back for round two) - that she was sad for me... because she thought I seemed like a nice person, and she knew he would hurt me... and I STILL went in there again. You seem very nice as well Jaded. And perhaps that's part of the healing, to protect that 'niceness' and only give it openly to the people who truly earn it.

[jaded7]

Oh gosh, I think you can definitely be assured that her behaviours are definitely, 100% not your fault. And nothing you did or didn't do was the cause of them.

Ultimately you fell in love with someone who is deeply wounded, and she isn't in control of her patterns or actions. And deep down somewhere in there, she will know that. Just as her sister seems to know it.

It sounds like her behaviour towards you was abusive, demeaning and disrespectful... and I know how much confusion that can cause, and how hard it is to untangle and let go of these things. I know the rumination part of this process is awful. Dr Romani talks about the rumination in a different way to some other experts. It's not something we can fully control, and nor should we try, although we can try and manage its impact on our lives. It makes sense that you're still suffering from the deep impact of your ex's hurtful actions and words, the healing process just isn't quick or linear.

I have watched a few Sam Vatkin videos, and he makes a lot of sense, although he also created a sense of fear and foreboding in me... I do like Dr Romani for her straight-up talking about toxic relationships. But I also like some of the Matthew Hussey videos, because he focuses so much on your own self worth, building yourself into some of such value and worth that you simply won't tolerate anything other than healthy, reciprocal love. I find his content uplifting and hopeful.

By the way, my ex's ex-wife said something similar (which came to me via someone else before I went back for round two) - that she was sad for me... because she thought I seemed like a nice person, and she knew he would hurt me... and I STILL went in there again. You seem very nice as well Jaded. And perhaps that's part of the healing, to protect that 'niceness' and only give it openly to the people who truly earn it.

Before tucking in tonight....thank you so much seekingtheway. This all means a lot to me, tonight. I hope I can be as supportive to you. Oh, and yes I know what you say about Vaknin, and agree. He creates a bit of foreboding in me, and Dr. Ramani....I just want to hug her and say thank you! She is so likable, the very opposite of Vaknin in many ways.

my ex's ex-wife said something similar (which came to me via someone else before I went back for round two) - that she was sad for me... because she thought I seemed like a nice person, and she knew he would hurt me... and I STILL went in there again. You seem very nice as well Jaded. And perhaps that's part of the healing, to protect that 'niceness' and only give it openly to the people who truly earn it.

So you had a similar experience. Precisely what my ex's sister said. I WOULD have gone back again too (probably would still today, tbh), so I get that. I really do. Take care tonight, thank you again.

[tina7868]

Hi jaded! I am limited in my response as I am on break at work, but I wanted to send you my thoughts and support. I will echo seekingtheway in reinforcing that you do have a good heart. Your suffering comes hand in hand with your dedication and sensitivity towards the people you care for. Your strengths are also your weaknesses, in that your compassion and consideration can be taken advantage of, in a way sent into a black hole, when given to the wrong people. And it seems that your ex was the wrong person.

I read a book about compassion and boundaries. It mentioned that at the heart of compassion is the acceptance of ourselves and others. Yet, it’s hard to accept people when they are hurting us. So, compassion comes with having clear boundaries and holding people accountable for their behaviour. Kindness without limitations or reciprocity is not true kindness, as it doesn’t serve the person who deserves your kindness most of all: yourself. 

[seekingtheway]

So you had a similar experience. Precisely what my ex's sister said. I WOULD have gone back again too (probably would still today, tbh), so I get that. I really do. Take care tonight, thank you again.

This part here is where it gets interesting, doesn't it?! Because the logical part of the brain knows that going in for another round is just going to land up in the same place if not worse, but the heart still wants to go there despite that. It makes you wonder what needs were being met in that relationship? What would you get out of it? Why is it still attractive?
 
It can be interesting to dig into these needs - because you can potentially get those needs met elsewhere, which might start to lessen that sense of longing. And I feel like confidence can be really low in the aftermath of an abusive relationship - which is why there isn't that really solid belief that you're actually worth so much more than the way you were treated. Dedicating yourself to new skills, new connections etc can be so helpful... similar to what you were saying about music on another post... and just keep going with it. When your confidence is higher, and you've filled some of the holes in your heart – you will probably have absolutely no desire to go back into a relationship or any type of contact with her again. It just takes time, but sometimes we have to be really intentional about it.

I personally find that when I have too much time on my hands at the moment, I sink into a low state of mind quite easily, whereas when I've got my children around, or I'm moving/doing, I feel positive and at times really free. Turns out idleness really is the devil's workshop for me.

[EyesUp]

Hello Jaded,

Yes, definitely experienced many similar things. Uncannily so re: rejected trips, gifts, offers to help... I've read Vaknin, too, and agree that some of the ways he frames NPD dynamics rings true, even if he lacks certain clinical experience/credentials.  

How to put Vaknin or any other expert to use?  Over time, I've found that my tendency to ruminate or review the things that never made sense in my relationship with my uBPDxw has declined. The thing I got from Vaknin, et al, was about letting certain things go - recognizing that certain things are outside of my control.  Detaching, radical acceptance, give it a name...  at some point, our energy is better directed elsewhere.  Usually, inward.

It can be a bit counter intuitive - becoming self-focused. Isn't that the "n" dynamic?  NPDs and some BPDs will tell us "you don't care about me, you only care about yourself" - so the impulse toward introspection or any form of self care can be short circuited - we've been more or less told not to do it.  That keeps our attention on the pwN/BPD.

Similar to you...
My ex loved lingerie, but a large GC went unused
My ex often seemed to resent when I traveled for work, but declined to join trips
My ex hated to drive, but didn't appreciate offers to share the wheel

In each instance, the apparent conflict went unresolved.

Eventually, I had to let it go - because there was no acknowledgement or validation or shared explanation that worked for her.  The various deflections - more likely accusations - eventually indicated to me that she was often unhappy about something, and attributed it to me.  Maybe there was some truth in her feelings, after all I was present, and often a participant in some way.  However, achieving some understanding that would enable us both to move forward was usually not on the menu.  And at some point, I felt ridiculous for belaboring what I felt should be relatively small/easy to resolve communication gaps.

Reading here and elsewhere about PDs has helped me understand what my ex might have been feeling, and why small things sometimes became big things. And that understanding, eventually, offered a path forward.  

I think the big shift was from trying to understand (i.e., not accepting) to understanding (i.e., accepting) - That's when I finally realized:  There is no rational explanation for certain behaviors, and what she did/felt/believed/said was entirely out of my control.

Letting go of control was a huge relief.

Good luck on your journey - your ability to concisely describe certain events indicates that you have a lot of clarity - So - What would you like to happen next?

[jaded7]

Seekingtheway, Tina, EyesUp

Thank you all, each of you offers good insights.

I do wonder why I'm SOOO attached to this person. I've never experienced anything like this before. I've had many gfs, several long-term relationships, some sadness and depression after they ended. But never anything anywhere close to this rumination and depression.

As you say seekingtheway, I believe I need to look at what needs were getting met in the relationship. Simple....

I was loved. At least she said she loved me.

It felt good, it felt like someone finally saw me, and I was vulnerable with her. She definitely told me she loved me. So I could not make sense of it. If you love me, why are you mocking me and putting me down? Why are you not responding to my texts? Why do you not invite me to go with you on weekends away with friends. Why do you disappear for days? Why do you ask me at the last second to build your son's basketball hoop when you haven't asked me what I am doing for Thanksgiving two days later and never did, and I never knew what you did? Why do you leave for Christmas without even talking to me or asking me what I'm doing, without communicating for days and days? Then tell me I ruined the relationship?

And I was physically connected to her. Most of you will have read that I was sexually abused as a boy, and that part of my life has always been scary, potentially really hurtful to me. Something I told her, and then she promptly became mean and angry and demanding and objectifying and ordering me around during sex.
So letting go of her feels like letting go of some part of me that I can't get back. So my mind/spirit holds on.


I'm a scientist, my mind likes to understand things. EyesUp you make a distinction between trying to understand and understanding that there is no rational explanation. That's where I need to be, because once you accept that you stop trying to fit two puzzle pieces together that aren't made to fit.

Thanks to you all.

[tina7868]

Hey jaded7,

As I read and talk to other people, I come to view my situation from different perspectives. What your words make me think of is the idea that we accept the treatment we think we deserve. You mention that your past relationships have brought you sadness, but not the level of rumination and depression that you experience over your relationship with your ex with BPD. I feel like that`s an important point. Maybe your sense of attachment was healthier in those relationships. And maybe, with your ex with BPD, the feelings involved went beyond love and also incorporated unresolved feelings from your childhood. In many ways, maybe you paradoxically felt comfort in the way she was treating you, trying to `fix` things and prove yourself to her because she brought up deep seated feelings of not being good enough and on some level `deserving` this treatment.

From this perspective, it makes sense that you are attached to her. What are your thoughts? This is all based on observations from my own situation, of course, so it may not resonate with you.

So letting go of her feels like letting go of some part of me that I can't get back.

What part of you is that?

[jaded7]

Hey jaded7,

As I read and talk to other people, I come to view my situation from different perspectives. What your words make me think of is the idea that we accept the treatment we think we deserve. You mention that your past relationships have brought you sadness, but not the level of rumination and depression that you experience over your relationship with your ex with BPD. I feel like that`s an important point. Maybe your sense of attachment was healthier in those relationships. And maybe, with your ex with BPD, the feelings involved went beyond love and also incorporated unresolved feelings from your childhood. In many ways, maybe you paradoxically felt comfort in the way she was treating you, trying to `fix` things and prove yourself to her because she brought up deep seated feelings of not being good enough and on some level `deserving` this treatment.

From this perspective, it makes sense that you are attached to her. What are your thoughts? This is all based on observations from my own situation, of course, so it may not resonate with you.

What part of you is that?

Really good insight and thinking there seekingtheway.

"I feel like that`s an important point. Maybe your sense of attachment was healthier in those relationships. And maybe, with your ex with BPD, the feelings involved went beyond love and also incorporated unresolved feelings from your childhood. In many ways, maybe you paradoxically felt comfort in the way she was treating you, trying to `fix` things and prove yourself to her because she brought up deep seated feelings of not being good enough and on some level `deserving` this treatment."

This is an attachment problem, for exactly the reasons you are describing here. I have normal, healthy attachment style....the last one I did I was mostly secure, with a little anxious. But as we all know, these relationships can make us even more anxiously attached, or act in ways that look like we are. I never did anything out of the ordinary, which I'm so grateful for (proud of?) because if I had acted clingy or needy she would have absolutely let me know, in no uncertain terms, and harshly as well.

But over the last couple of years I've come to understand that you are right. You are very insightful. My mom was JUST LIKE MY EX. Controlling, highly reserved, anxious, fearful, rigid, smart, quick..........and both didn't like me the way I am, both tried to change me, both were dismissive of my needs, both were quick with the sarcastic comment or dismissal if I was excited about something, on and on.

I think my ex flipped a switch inside me looking for the love I didn't get as a child.

My Mom and I had lots and lots of fights when I was very little up through teenage years. I remember when I was 4 years old already feeling 'bad', 'wrong', and 'not good enough' all the time, and after a fight with my mom (if you can call it that, I was 4) I remember telling her that I didn't ask to be born, it was not my decision to be here. Just frustrated, confused, feeling worthless, feeling unseen and not understood. At 4 years old!

It is no little irony that my ex called me 'worthless' once.

By the way, when I finished college my Mom told me that she should not have tried to change me, she should have accepted me for who I was. She told me she always tried to make me into someone she wanted me to be, not me who I am. Plus, I was exactly like her Father/my grandfather, whom she had a very weird relationship with since he was an alcoholic when she was little and would disappear for days or even weeks at a time, throwing the household into chaos. I was JUST like him, in mindset and personality, and I could tell she found that to be stressful.

So I think something really really deep within me has been triggered. Something fundamental, really....the attachment system. Which has a real evolutionary function and is built into us. When we are very small we absolutely have to be completely attached to our primary caregiver, usually the mom. We have to be. We do not live if we aren't. Or, we struggle in life if that doesn't happen. But the point of the attachment system is to make us 'love' and want to be near our Mom.

So, I think you're right about that seekingtheway. Which is why my mind or spirit won't let go. Can't let go. I would die if I did that, which is exactly how the attachment system works.

Regarding the sexual abuse and connection with her, another part of adult attachment, mediated through oxtyocin and dopamine. Real hormones that make us attach and love our partner.

So, she both triggered my fundamental attachment system, and also my adult attachment system, and my physical attachment to her, which I tried and tried to protect my whole life.

The part missing in me is right below the belly button, like a crater from a bomb exploding. Missing, a big black hole. That's the only way I can describe it. In the very early days, I could see that hole in my mind. And I could feel it. It's now not so prominent.

[jaded7]

Really good insight and thinking there seekingtheway.

Apologies Tina, I meant to say Tina there.

[seekingtheway]

This is all really big and important stuff Jaded. It's great that you have such awareness of it all, and that you can link up all the pieces in such a logical way.

You mentioned that you act mostly secure in relationships – but I wonder if you feel that somatically in your body, as in, does your body actually felt truly safe and secure in a relationship (obviously you wouldn't have done in the one with your ex, but what about the ones before that)? Or does it mean you mostly 'act' in a secure way, because you know you kind of need to in order to not be rejected?

Given what you've described below, it would be almost impossible to not have attachment issues, and it makes sense that you're struggling to let go of an attachment that has most closely mirrored your childhood experiences.

The intermittent reinforcement is another element that gets added to these attachment wounds - because the intense highs and lows and never knowing what's coming next does create a chemical imbalance in the brain. So there's that too. There's a lot of layers to work through. It's brave, vulnerable to peel them back and deal with them. I'm doing it in therapy at the moment as well. Going back to childhood and identifying the patterns with the aim of busting through this attachment completely. I know it seems unlikely and impossible, but on the other side of this attachment is the potential for incredible growth and peace.

[jaded7]

This is all really big and important stuff Jaded. It's great that you have such awareness of it all, and that you can link up all the pieces in such a logical way.

You mentioned that you act mostly secure in relationships – but I wonder if you feel that somatically in your body, as in, does your body actually felt truly safe and secure in a relationship (obviously you wouldn't have done in the one with your ex, but what about the ones before that)? Or does it mean you mostly 'act' in a secure way, because you know you kind of need to in order to not be rejected?

Given what you've described below, it would be almost impossible to not have attachment issues, and it makes sense that you're struggling to let go of an attachment that has most closely mirrored your childhood experiences.

The intermittent reinforcement is another element that gets added to these attachment wounds - because the intense highs and lows and never knowing what's coming next does create a chemical imbalance in the brain. So there's that too. There's a lot of layers to work through. It's brave, vulnerable to peel them back and deal with them. I'm doing it in therapy at the moment as well. Going back to childhood and identifying the patterns with the aim of busting through this attachment completely. I know it seems unlikely and impossible, but on the other side of this attachment is the potential for incredible growth and peace.

Thank you seekingtheway (I got it right this time!) And also, thank you again Tina above.

Good thoughts about acting vs feeling in the attachment system. I think you are got to something important. Walking On Eggshells...the phrase we all know, came to mind when I read what you wrote, seems to be related to attachment style? I did walk on eggshells around her......after about 4-5 months of a two-year relationship. I was my completely open and vulnerable and unafraid self before that. I learned to not ask questions, not express needs, not get upset when she meanly rejected my offers (see above), called me names, etc.

So, I think you may be right, I became internally anxious attachment, afraid to lose her love.Wondering what in god's name is going on, why isn't she calling me back? why is she mad at me now?  But I ACTED very secure. I thought that's what she wanted?

And intermittent reinforcement, absolutely. A real high when she seemed to love me again, a sense of euphoria almost. Then came the ghosting and yelling and anger, out of nowhere. Could not seem to do anything right, despite my efforts to.

It's nice to hear about someone else looking at these issues and working on them. Over the last couple of years I really have come to believe that, in me, this and the SA are the root causes of my prolonged suffering. Sounds like you are getting into the real work that needs to be done, so congratulations to you.

I've said several times that I feel like I understand you and your struggles, maybe that's why? We might have similar childhood family of origin attachment issues. When I saw a therapist at the beginning of this after the ending, she very quickly told me these are developmental issues.

[tina7868]

Your words are really clear and show so much reflection, jaded7. Being honest and vulnerable and authentic are wonderful qualities that will help you take steps forward in your healing journey.

I`m right in the boat with you when it comes to attachments. A perspective I have is that it is almost nice to take the focus away from them, and bring it back to you. These are your attachment wounds, and with your work you can heal them. Your ex partner had good qualities, I`m sure, but in many ways it is you that made her special in your own head because of your baggage.

As seekingtheway mentioned, there are many elements at play here. A really tangled web where there is more than meets the eye. Be patient and kind with yourself, and be assured that we see your efforts and have your back  

[seekingtheway]

Yeah, I think you're right - your attachment wounds and early wounding, plus the SA – and the lingering trauma from the relationship – will be part of what stops you from truly moving on and the ongoing suffering. I suspect once you give some really compassionate, but undivided attention to those things, and keep the focus on yourself, and not your ex, things may start shifting for you.

I'll share some of my thoughts from my own experience... I don't know if any of it will help... I hope it will... but I've dug into my childhood stuff before (after a previous brush with Cluster B within my ex-husband's family - not my most recent ex). I did a lot of work then to understand why I was so sensitive to their behaviours and why I was the one who was targeted more than others in that family dynamic. I am sensitive and highly empathetic, but I also have an almost impossible-to-switch-off need to do the 'right thing' and 'speak the truth and be honest'... which I thought comes from a religious upbringing, but my psychologist feels is actually somewhat at odds with my upbringing and is just my unique 'me-ness'. That mix seems to simultaneously attract and clash with Cluster B because they are attracted to my empathy and sensitivity, but can't handle my truth-telling... so I don't think I will ever be the right person for someone with a personality disorder, because I can't keep the truth from spilling from my lips for long, though I'm learning there are times it's better to keep quiet, too. But I have learned I need someone who enjoys those aspects of me, because I can't turn them off without becoming someone I am not.

Anyway, my first brush with Cluster B many years ago was when I uncovered my anxious attachment tendencies, and I entered therapy and worked hard to become more secure – and I did manage to do that. I also studied attachment formally for a while, and I do believe it's at the root of so many dysfunctional relationship dynamics. But then I met my most recent ex, and I'm further behind in that journey than ever before, so looking to now dig much deeper with my psychologist, and also working with EMDR to try and deal with some of my past trauma in a more thorough way.

One of the main problems I am uncovering is that I give too many chances, I stay too long, I sometimes (want to) believe stories/excuses that are unlikely true, I try and earn love by giving more than I can afford... I have core wounds around feeling like I'm too much, not enough... and that I'm not wanted... and will be rejected for being who I really am. And there's plenty of evidence to back up these fears being a real thing!

The way I see it with my most recent ex... is that he acted like the perfect partner until we were well beyond the point I was fully attached and committed to him... and he promised all kinds of things he knew he couldn't deliver, he was emotionally and financially abusive, and there was some sexual boundaries crossed too that I don't like to even think about. He lied all the time, and he ran away from anything that was hard, looked for other women when he felt uncertain, kept coming back for me to satisfy his own needs instead of recognising I was deeply hurt and confused and needed to heal, and used neglect and silence as his methods of lashing out/punishment (plus sending me messages through music). That's his stuff. None of that is about me and none of it is my fault. I didn't deserve any of it, and it's literally his disorder and his childhood stuff being projected onto me.

But my stuff is that I stayed, I entertained his bad behaviour by keeping the focus on him and his needs and trying to 'understand' him rather than standing up for myself, I always kept the door open no matter what he did, I perpetuated the devastating push/pull cycle by staying in it, I set boundaries but I didn't stick to them, I was so desperate for his love that I was willing to overlook my own very important values of honesty and integrity, I allowed him in my life when I knew deep down he wasn't healthy, and I have children I need to protect!! And almost all of it stems from my attachment stuff and my fear of being alone or abandoned, as well as the fact the intermittent reinforcement confused me, got me addicted and hooked and I really did lose my centre and sanity for quite a long time there.

But I know he is unhealthy and wounded and can't give me what I need... and that he is in pain too... and he can't help himself, he can't seem to do better... so I need to do better for the both of us, and never let him come back and cause more havoc and pain. If I truly loved him like I say I do... that's something I should be doing for him too, because I don't want him to hurt, and he just does hurt when he's in a relationship with me. Though I think he hurts when he's with anyone.

From what I know about attachment, yes you can become way more anxious than you previously were from a traumatic experience - but it's usually temporary, and with time and healing you'll go back to where you were before, or better, if you heal yourself all the way to secure. So that's what I'm aiming for, but also going gently, because I think that's the point of this - to go gently with yourself in all the ways, and find ways to just love and accept yourself. Though I've been seeking connection in community too, because I think a lot of important healing happens there too. I'm not sure we can do it on our own. All healing happens in a relationship to something - your therapist, in another romantic relationship, with nature, music, in community groups... anyway, there's lots of things to explore, and lots of hope ahead.

Sorry this is so long... I really went off on one and couldn't stop!! Haha.

[jaded7]

Your words are really clear and show so much reflection, jaded7. Being honest and vulnerable and authentic are wonderful qualities that will help you take steps forward in your healing journey.

I`m right in the boat with you when it comes to attachments. A perspective I have is that it is almost nice to take the focus away from them, and bring it back to you. These are your attachment wounds, and with your work you can heal them. Your ex partner had good qualities, I`m sure, but in many ways it is you that made her special in your own head because of your baggage.

As seekingtheway mentioned, there are many elements at play here. A really tangled web where there is more than meets the eye. Be patient and kind with yourself, and be assured that we see your efforts and have your back  

Tina and Seekingtheway. I have a busy morning, but want to acknowledge the truly thoughtful and kind posts you both made, and I will be able to give more time to respond later today.

I really feel you both are doing great work, and have real insights. I think this is the huge benefit of this board, kind discussions and sharing and learning from each other.

[seekingtheway]

No worries, hope some of it feels like something you can relate to. The other thing I think that kept me in this relationship is that the idealisation phase gave me a glimpse of this insane version of love that I felt I'd always wanted - and hadn't experienced before. Times where I felt fully seen and accepted and loved... and unfortunately it came at a time when I was very vulnerable to that. I had a lot of other things going on with my life that were really tough. But it does still highlight that I had a lot of holes in my own self esteem.

I just wanted to do whatever it took to get back to those moments of blissful 'love'... but if I was truly secure and had higher self worth, and loved myself fully - I would have seen it for what it was (inconsistent morsels of love) and cut my losses and left. But I didn't want to accept that reality... and that part is on me. The rest is his. I never stooped, got nasty or disrespected him, I didn't lie, cheat or abandon him... so I leave that stuff at his door to deal with.

[jaded7]

Yeah, I think you're right - your attachment wounds and early wounding, plus the SA – and the lingering trauma from the relationship – will be part of what stops you from truly moving on and the ongoing suffering. I suspect once you give some really compassionate, but undivided attention to those things, and keep the focus on yourself, and not your ex, things may start shifting for you.

I'll share some of my thoughts from my own experience... I don't know if any of it will help... I hope it will... but I've dug into my childhood stuff before (after a previous brush with Cluster B within my ex-husband's family - not my most recent ex). I did a lot of work then to understand why I was so sensitive to their behaviours and why I was the one who was targeted more than others in that family dynamic. I am sensitive and highly empathetic, but I also have an almost impossible-to-switch-off need to do the 'right thing' and 'speak the truth and be honest'... which I thought comes from a religious upbringing, but my psychologist feels is actually somewhat at odds with my upbringing and is just my unique 'me-ness'. That mix seems to simultaneously attract and clash with Cluster B because they are attracted to my empathy and sensitivity, but can't handle my truth-telling... so I don't think I will ever be the right person for someone with a personality disorder, because I can't keep the truth from spilling from my lips for long, though I'm learning there are times it's better to keep quiet, too. But I have learned I need someone who enjoys those aspects of me, because I can't turn them off without becoming someone I am not.

Anyway, my first brush with Cluster B many years ago was when I uncovered my anxious attachment tendencies, and I entered therapy and worked hard to become more secure – and I did manage to do that. I also studied attachment formally for a while, and I do believe it's at the root of so many dysfunctional relationship dynamics. But then I met my most recent ex, and I'm further behind in that journey than ever before, so looking to now dig much deeper with my psychologist, and also working with EMDR to try and deal with some of my past trauma in a more thorough way.

One of the main problems I am uncovering is that I give too many chances, I stay too long, I sometimes (want to) believe stories/excuses that are unlikely true, I try and earn love by giving more than I can afford... I have core wounds around feeling like I'm too much, not enough... and that I'm not wanted... and will be rejected for being who I really am. And there's plenty of evidence to back up these fears being a real thing!

The way I see it with my most recent ex... is that he acted like the perfect partner until we were well beyond the point I was fully attached and committed to him... and he promised all kinds of things he knew he couldn't deliver, he was emotionally and financially abusive, and there was some sexual boundaries crossed too that I don't like to even think about. He lied all the time, and he ran away from anything that was hard, looked for other women when he felt uncertain, kept coming back for me to satisfy his own needs instead of recognising I was deeply hurt and confused and needed to heal, and used neglect and silence as his methods of lashing out/punishment (plus sending me messages through music). That's his stuff. None of that is about me and none of it is my fault. I didn't deserve any of it, and it's literally his disorder and his childhood stuff being projected onto me.

But my stuff is that I stayed, I entertained his bad behaviour by keeping the focus on him and his needs and trying to 'understand' him rather than standing up for myself, I always kept the door open no matter what he did, I perpetuated the devastating push/pull cycle by staying in it, I set boundaries but I didn't stick to them, I was so desperate for his love that I was willing to overlook my own very important values of honesty and integrity, I allowed him in my life when I knew deep down he wasn't healthy, and I have children I need to protect!! And almost all of it stems from my attachment stuff and my fear of being alone or abandoned, as well as the fact the intermittent reinforcement confused me, got me addicted and hooked and I really did lose my centre and sanity for quite a long time there.

But I know he is unhealthy and wounded and can't give me what I need... and that he is in pain too... and he can't help himself, he can't seem to do better... so I need to do better for the both of us, and never let him come back and cause more havoc and pain. If I truly loved him like I say I do... that's something I should be doing for him too, because I don't want him to hurt, and he just does hurt when he's in a relationship with me. Though I think he hurts when he's with anyone.

From what I know about attachment, yes you can become way more anxious than you previously were from a traumatic experience - but it's usually temporary, and with time and healing you'll go back to where you were before, or better, if you heal yourself all the way to secure. So that's what I'm aiming for, but also going gently, because I think that's the point of this - to go gently with yourself in all the ways, and find ways to just love and accept yourself. Though I've been seeking connection in community too, because I think a lot of important healing happens there too. I'm not sure we can do it on our own. All healing happens in a relationship to something - your therapist, in another romantic relationship, with nature, music, in community groups... anyway, there's lots of things to explore, and lots of hope ahead.

Sorry this is so long... I really went off on one and couldn't stop!! Haha.

Tina above, a real tangled web indeed. As you say, take the focus off them and on to you. I don't know about you, but my focus on her and what she did, is that really abusive, is this mean? etc is my brain's attempt to let me know I'm not a bad, horribly flawed person. If what she did is abusive and mean, then I didn't cause this. I didn't do this to myself. I didn't lose anything important. Strange twisted logic.

Seekingtheway. That was really beautiful. I reread it just now, that I have some time, and it's really good. Lots of clear thinking and connections made there. It was helpful for me, and I'm sure that it will be helpful for others.

One part that stuck out for me, among several, was how you stayed and kept the focus on his needs. Tried to understand him....rather than standing up for yourself. Isn't the the truth?? Exactly the same here. I would most often not say anything about the verbal and emotional abuse, and honestly I should have set very clear boundaries around that. Boundaries for what I would accept, and what I would not accept. I did do that once about her yelling and tone of voice...'honey, that's not a loving tone. please...you're not speaking to me in a loving tone'. But you know what, at that point I didn't CARE.

You write that you were giving up your values of integrity and honesty, you lost your sanity for a while with the intermittent reinforcement. Same here, I think we need to pay more attention to that. Stockholm Syndrome, even.

I have thought about that a lot. I was most able to set a boundary when I didn't care hardly at all anymore. She had shown me a number of times how she flew off the handle, I had concluded that she was mean and out of control, and not honest in her interactions with me, and just illogical.

I wonder about others here, and boundaries.

Thanks seekingtheway, you wrote that beautifully and it wasn't too long at all!

[seekingtheway]

I think the dynamic of a toxic relationship is set up in such a way that it keeps the focus on the other person - we do it to keep things from constantly blowing up - to keep yourself safe and to keep the relationship going. I read about this in the 'Why does he do that' book I've mentioned before, which breaks this process down and explains how we are trained to keep the focus on the other person, and what's in it for them if we do (getting their needs met and creating a life where they are not held to account).

But I do wonder if the constant rumination on the other person after the relationship ends, and once we are safe and free, is more related to avoiding what is going on for ourselves, which is potentially a massive amount of grief and pain that has accumulated over our lives... and is the tangled web we've all mentioned in this chat. It's hard to keep focus solely on ourselves and our stuff... I find it so hard... but this chat has inspired me to push harder in that direction.

Yes, the Stockholm Syndrom thing - something weird did happen towards the very end, I could literally feel and observe the thought processes in my brain being different to normal. It was the strangest thing. I was expressing it to friends, like I was having an out-of-body experience, which in many ways is exactly what it was.

Thank you so much, Jaded - I appreciate the kind words.

[jaded7]

I think the dynamic of a toxic relationship is set up in such a way that it keeps the focus on the other person - we do it to keep things from constantly blowing up - to keep yourself safe and to keep the relationship going. I read about this in the 'Why does he do that' book I've mentioned before, which breaks this process down and explains how we are trained to keep the focus on the other person, and what's in it for them if we do (getting their needs met and creating a life where they are not held to account).

But I do wonder if the constant rumination on the other person after the relationship ends, and once we are safe and free, is more related to avoiding what is going on for ourselves, which is potentially a massive amount of grief and pain that has accumulated over our lives... and is the tangled web we've all mentioned in this chat. It's hard to keep focus solely on ourselves and our stuff... I find it so hard... but this chat has inspired me to push harder in that direction.

Yes, the Stockholm Syndrom thing - something weird did happen towards the very end, I could literally feel and observe the thought processes in my brain being different to normal. It was the strangest thing. I was expressing it to friends, like I was having an out-of-body experience, which in many ways is exactly what it was.

Thank you so much, Jaded - I appreciate the kind words.

That's Lundy Bancroft, right? Why Does He Do That? Do you think that one can read it and switch genders? I read The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans and she is coming from a woman's perspective, so uses 'he' all the time for the verbal abuser, but I just switch in my head the genders.

A tangled web is a good mental image. I can see the childhood abuse, the FOO issues, my coping in the early days, etc, as a very complex web in my mind mind, and my ex (and her language, behaviors, personality) like a big insect that hit the web and is shaking all the the threads at the same time. I'm here trying to figure out exactly which thread I need to repair, or even notice. In fact, the web image is a good way of visualizing why I became so attached to her in the first place, and why it's so hard to let go.

[seekingtheway]

Yes, I think you could just switch the genders for the Lundy Bancroft book, although he is coming very squarely from the perspective of a man being the abuser. But I think it's still useful because he has so much experience about abusive dynamics and what the abuser gets out of things being the way they are. The big thing I came away with is the firm knowledge that abuse is a choice, BPD or not. He doesn't talk about personality disorders, his view is that many people are abusive because of societal constructs. But we do know that not everyone with BPD is abusive... it's still a choice to employ those behaviours. We all have the choice to heal our stuff and become someone who doesn't hurt others.

Yes, I hear you - it's hard to know where to start with untangling the web.

Post by gemsforeyes a few down that talks about this need to focus on self to truly heal. I think there will be hundreds of similar stories here on the boards.

Do you have a therapist?

[jaded7]

Yes, I think you could just switch the genders for the Lundy Bancroft book, although he is coming very squarely from the perspective of a man being the abuser. But I think it's still useful because he has so much experience about abusive dynamics and what the abuser gets out of things being the way they are. The big thing I came away with is the firm knowledge that abuse is a choice, BPD or not. He doesn't talk about personality disorders, his view is that many people are abusive because of societal constructs. But we do know that not everyone with BPD is abusive... it's still a choice to employ those behaviours. We all have the choice to heal our stuff and become someone who doesn't hurt others.

Yes, I hear you - it's hard to know where to start with untangling the web.

Post by gemsforeyes a few down that talks about this need to focus on self to truly heal. I think there will be hundreds of similar stories here on the boards.

Do you have a therapist?

That's the hard part to understand, isn't it? That the abuse is a choice. They choose to call us names, they choose to mock us. They choose to yell.

Then they choose to deny the severity of it, or deny it happened as well. They choose to pretend you did something you didn't do.


I'll look for gemsforeyes post. She always is very insightful.

I don't have a therapist right now, but am thinking I need to do that again. Thank you seeking.