So many things to fit into one post but lingering past issues get in the way

[dowhatittakes]

I just signed up but had been lurking and reading for a while now. I don't think I have to waste too much time on back story or details because it really wouldn't change much would it? Suffice to say it's a same sex situationship with an age gap and things were always a big question mark even during the idealization because of these and other reasons. There was bouncing back from him being discarded by his FP and I was who he latched onto, I kept him centered, balanced, focused, and sane. At first all I wanted to do was be supportive to a guy who I knew, was a really sweet person, and needed someone but it quickly intensified and I developed feelings. I'm 90% confident he did too but we never made any moves in that direction. He's bisexual and he was constantly making sure to remind me of that.

The level of intimacy, comfort, trust, talking to each other all day, the amount of pictures he'd send (and the types at times), the things he would say. I mean it was insanely obvious to me but I am hesitant and didn't want to make a move he didn't want. It got so intense that I started to get worried he might have started feeling rejected. He ended up saying things to me that he had told me he had said to his ex at some point and nothing made me happier than him being engaged and talking to me every minute of the day, waking up to his messages. Pretty standard idealization stuff but with the caveat of not having a clear status on the whole thing. At one point, about 4 months in I woke up to no morning messages at all and he didn't really send anything to me all morning, I asked if something was wrong and he said nothing. The following days got better but he was still a lot less engaged with me. I revisited conversations and there was this one conversation in which the 5 people I asked told me they interpreted the exact opposite of what I had meant. Literally what I said might have been heartbreaking rejection to him and it was lining up perfectly with what was happening (on top of me forgetting to watch one of 3 videos he made just for me). So I frantically wanted to have a conversation with him about this to clear it up and he frantically avoided it. Eventually things got really good again for a little bit, so I didn't push it. Couple of weeks later, this event that he had been planning for months was coming up and he shut me out from it completely. At that point his distancing came back overnight so I sent him a message saying how much I loved when he included me in his things (which eventually I came out to find was taken out of context and ended up turning into this sinister "control freak, possessive asshole" meaning, which his friends validated considering the limited context he gave them).

At that point he also started making frantic attempts to convince me of how straight he was and showing me alleged conversations or advances from girls. He would get mad if I got jealous but he would also seem disappointed if I didn't react. At this point the devaluation started hitting rock bottom, there were days we barely even talked, he'd leave me on read for so long I couldn't take it. But then he'd also send me things to try to convince me of how much of a manipulator he was, of how he was convinced I'd leave if I really knew how much he had used me. Every time he'd go into avoidant mode he'd eventually come back from it by me just reassuring him about how much I cared about him. One day he had a job interview and I got up to text him good luck right before it started. He went as far as to reply he knew it was a pre programmed message. When he realized it wasn't, we had an amazing day and he broke down so many of his walls. This kind of pattern and a lot of unbearable things have been the theme of the past 2 and a half months. He's been doing better but he has been withholding words of appreciation, he has been guarded and when he does open up a day or two of shut down almost always follow. In the past week things are a lot better but he's still hesitant. He still seems afraid of something and so am I. I don't know what to do, I don't know how to proceed, I don't want to ruin the progress, but I also don't want to underplay it. About two weeks ago we had our worst fight ever, he told me not to text him all night but an hour later he reached out and needed me so much, he was sweet and open. I care so deeply about him and I would never want to force him into anything he wouldn't want but at the same time it kills me to have him withhold good nights, good mornings, It kills me when he avoids emotional topics out of fear. Every time he reacts to something along these lines he contradicts himself. He had even been addressing me by name a lot less and my nickname he gave me, he only used it for the first time since the discard a couple of days ago. He obviously has a lot riding on this too but he's obviously insecure and I totally get it. What can I do? Should I revisit that original misunderstanding? If I do it might explain the wording I used in that message he interepreted as controlling and possessive.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[LittleRedBarn]

Have you seen Coach Ken's videos about BPD? Your story put me in mind of this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXLd2YpAG_8


Do you see a therapist yourself currently?

[dowhatittakes]

I must have watched that video 5 times, including this time you posted the link. The amount of research I've done and media I've consumed is wild. I'm familiar with all the processes taking place I just kind of, need an external opionion I guess, it gets all very hazy over the weeks and months. It's really challenging. I am looking into getting therapy for myself but I am not excited about the prospect because in the past finding a good therapist has always been incredibly difficult, last thing I want rn is to go to 3-4 different people who will just tell me to walk away and who will just try to tell me a bunch of things about my own issues without helping me with the pressing matters. I'm also quite familiar with my upbringing and tendencies, that's a long term conversation. I do need to address my mental health, don't get me wrong but that's going to be another mountain to climb.

[kells76]

Hello dowhatittakes and welcome to the group 

This core question in your post stood out to me:

He obviously has a lot riding on this too but he's obviously insecure and I totally get it. What can I do? Should I revisit that original misunderstanding? If I do it might explain the wording I used in that message he interepreted as controlling and possessive.

One of the statements that has really stuck with me from our "who should post on this board" info link is this:

Little is intuitive in a BP relationship.

In "generally normal" relationships (I'm using that pretty broadly), we are encouraged to "talk it out", reach agreement, make compromises, get consensus, explain what happened, and revisit past misunderstandings. When both partners are more or less functional and not seriously inhibited by mental health challenges (again, there's a broad range there), those approaches can be effective.

If BPD is involved, then it's important to remember that it's a real, serious, and relationally impairing condition. pwBPD may not respond to "normal" relational moves in a "normal" way.

In fact, pwBPD have an incredibly deep need for understanding and emotional validation, far more than others (we all need understanding and validation), and "typical" moves like Justifying ourselves, Arguing our point, Defending ourselves, or Explaining the situation can backfire, as pwBPD may experience those as deeply invalidating, even if we didn't mean to be so.

Explaining the wording in your message, or going back to try to revisit that misunderstanding, might be helpful in a "generally normal" relationship, but may be more like throwing gas on the fire if BPD is in play.

My intuition is that instead, focusing on managing your own anxieties, decreasing your neediness (i.e. being able to self soothe / meet your own needs from your inner self), and finding a grounded place to really listen from, might be more effective. I want to echo LittleRedBarn's thoughts -- as unintuitive as it sounds, managing and improving our own mental health is key if we want a BPD relationship to have a chance at success.

...

Have the two of you been in touch lately? If so, who initiated it?

[dowhatittakes]

Hello dowhatittakes and welcome to the group 

This core question in your post stood out to me:

One of the statements that has really stuck with me from our "who should post on this board" info link is this:

In "generally normal" relationships (I'm using that pretty broadly), we are encouraged to "talk it out", reach agreement, make compromises, get consensus, explain what happened, and revisit past misunderstandings. When both partners are more or less functional and not seriously inhibited by mental health challenges (again, there's a broad range there), those approaches can be effective.

If BPD is involved, then it's important to remember that it's a real, serious, and relationally impairing condition. pwBPD may not respond to "normal" relational moves in a "normal" way.

In fact, pwBPD have an incredibly deep need for understanding and emotional validation, far more than others (we all need understanding and validation), and "typical" moves like Justifying ourselves, Arguing our point, Defending ourselves, or Explaining the situation can backfire, as pwBPD may experience those as deeply invalidating, even if we didn't mean to be so.

Explaining the wording in your message, or going back to try to revisit that misunderstanding, might be helpful in a "generally normal" relationship, but may be more like throwing gas on the fire if BPD is in play.

My intuition is that instead, focusing on managing your own anxieties, decreasing your neediness (i.e. being able to self soothe / meet your own needs from your inner self), and finding a grounded place to really listen from, might be more effective. I want to echo LittleRedBarn's thoughts -- as unintuitive as it sounds, managing and improving our own mental health is key if we want a BPD relationship to have a chance at success.

...

Have the two of you been in touch lately? If so, who initiated it?

I appreciate your kind reply and yeah, you're absolutely right, there's nothing rational or logical about the way bpd relationships work, it's always a constant guessing game, contradictions, and a learning process. There are very rewarding moments but this is a true test, the relationship itself not the mini tests that come with it. I have noticed his need for validation from day one and generally speaking I think I was at first doing a pretty good job considering how intensely he attached to me. The thing is, at times this validation is required in other ways you originally didn't expect, like when they're in self depricating modes, you'd think convincing them that they're wrong about themselves and showing them that they're great is going to change something but all it does is invalidate. This and other realizations have been part of the journey.

I can understand why your advice about revisiting that issue in the past could be problematic, otherwise I would have brought it up ages ago but don't you think that in a neutral emotional moment, it could maybe help him understand that I'm not trying to control him? It can also clarify one of the biggest perceived rejection moments he might have experienced. I wish I could go back to that day and just reword the entire thing. To this day he's still affected by that "control" thing, he's try to make me jealous but at the same time he'll get upset if I do get jealous... if I ignore it he also doesn't like it and he still is very hypersensitive to any normal questions like I'm policing him or something.

As far as your last question, we still talk every day almost all day long but some days he's slow and distant, some days he seems to go to want back to fully opening up again but has been shutting down the day after. Still holds back on a lot of things he used to do, which kills me because they were so natural to him and now he's very guarded. Most of the time the one who initiates is him, mostly because I just wait and see what kind of day it's going to be, not because I don't want to initiate. I do initiate from time to time if there's something important or if he's been quiet and I'm worried about it. At times when he's splitting on me I'm the only one texting but I don't overwhelm him, I just ask about it a couple of times spaced by a couple of hours, give him reassuring words or say something sweet, and he'll either acknowledge it by forwarding something on social media or he'll just send slides or screenshots that are relevant to what he was feeling when he's ready to talk again.

[kells76]

I can understand why your advice about revisiting that issue in the past could be problematic, otherwise I would have brought it up ages ago but don't you think that in a neutral emotional moment, it could maybe help him understand that I'm not trying to control him? It can also clarify one of the biggest perceived rejection moments he might have experienced. I wish I could go back to that day and just reword the entire thing. To this day he's still affected by that "control" thing, he's try to make me jealous but at the same time he'll get upset if I do get jealous... if I ignore it he also doesn't like it and he still is very hypersensitive to any normal questions like I'm policing him or something.

That's a great question. Each pwBPD is different, so the possibility is certainly there.

How do conversations usually go, when both of you are at a baseline and regulated?

When he is dysregulated/not at baseline, does he remember what got "clarified" in baseline conversations?

[dowhatittakes]

That's a great question. Each pwBPD is different, so the possibility is certainly there.

How do conversations usually go, when both of you are at a baseline and regulated?

When he is dysregulated/not at baseline, does he remember what got "clarified" in baseline conversations?

At baseline the conversations are great, they can go for hours and he's bright, we understand each other very well, we have very similar lines of thinking....  he tends to remember almost everything at baseline. If I managed to get him to the point where we're having the conversation and he's not having an defense mechanism set off before the conversation even starts, I'm almost sure it could be produtcive.

[kells76]

At baseline the conversations are great, they can go for hours and he's bright, we understand each other very well, we have very similar lines of thinking....  he tends to remember almost everything at baseline. If I managed to get him to the point where we're having the conversation and he's not having an defense mechanism set off before the conversation even starts, I'm almost sure it could be produtcive.

My guess is that the issue isn't how he behaves at baseline -- it's that you hope that when he's dysregulated, he'd "remember"/"understand" that you're not trying to control him? Is that close?

[dowhatittakes]

My guess is that the issue isn't how he behaves at baseline -- it's that you hope that when he's dysregulated, he'd "remember"/"understand" that you're not trying to control him? Is that close?

I tried to revisit that conversation during a neutral moment, he was receptive when I said I wanted to discuss something but then he immediately shut down thinking it was another instance of me "thinking I did something wrong" he got really annoyed and told me again "and for the last time" YOU DID NOTHING WRONG, I'VE SAID IT MULTIPLE TIMES, AND I SAY IT AGAIN. So att that point I didn't even get to have a chance to make my point, despite the fact that he told me he knew I was going somewhere with it.

In the time since the last post I made he had a week of intense depression which led to a lot of arguments and him being very reactive and on edge. It was not fun but something interesting started happening after those arguments, he started sending me articles and slideshows about BPD, many of them insanely specific and always timed around a fight or an overreaction from him. One day I told him I was hurt because he left me on read and it made me wish I hadn't he actually woke up in a good mood that day and was being sweet so I regreted bringing it up but I did try tro be as gentle as possible. His reaction was very intense, called himself an asshole, said he lost his appetite, he broke something too.... then he came back a little calmer and we had a relatively nice day except for the fact he went into a self deprecating stint for a while... In the past wee I've been incredibly emotional and on edge this week because I feel so helpless at times, leaving him would devastate me and him and I can't even picture him suffering, this week there was a very meaningful date of something insanely sad and devastating for him, he came to me for that and opened up, we did what he wanted to do for it and I cried even more. We had very nice moments this week, he started kind of opening up and I was very happy,  but then I found out he made some posts about me on Instagram that are baffling (I was blocked from seeing it someone told me,not like slander but just something that I can only explain as a defense mechanism) especially because it happened at the exact same time he was opening up so much again. Today after 3 days of being so close and open he shut down again and barely talked to me all day. If this isn't push pull cycle idk what is. What's really ironic is that aside from the articles and slides he's been sending me about bpd, I remember a conversation we had when we were first getting close, when he revealed his bpd and he literally said to me that he tells people he gets attached to because he's terrified of his own overthinking, impulsive, and irrational behavior so he wants to give a fair warning and maybe get some patience and understanding as a result.