What if her version of reality and perception is the right one?

[phoenix blue]

Hi All, discovered this website and BPD just a few days ago. It is frightingly accurate and mirrors my experiences. I wish that I had known about it many years ago.  I have to say that I am terrified to write here, I have gradually lost all of my family and friends and feel completely isolated. Over the years i have had it ingrained into me not to talk to anyone as it is a betrayal of trust.  So please forgive the briefness of this message.

After me begging for days to be forgiven, I was let back home only for the situation to start spiralling out of control ( yet again). So I told her I am leaving, and not to contact me.  I am now being bombarded with calls and messages. The problem I am having right now, is that her reality, her perception of all the situations being my fault  has been so imprinted on my brain, that I am indoctrinated to believe it.  She has absoloutely no clue or self reflection, I have always had to back down, either to keep the peace or to win her back. She genuinely believes that absoloutely everything wrong in our relationship is down to me.  I am really trying not to ruminate, it´s just so hard. I am actually really hoping that her split is permanent and will leave me in peace, but I know that she will manage to press the right button once again if she chooses and I am done for.  I cannot help thinking , what if her reality, what if her perception is actually right, and it is me who is the problem. I know that I am not perfect, but I also know that I am able to self reflect.  What I do know is that it is me who has said a million sorrys, it is me who has admitted to being so wrong hundereds if not thousands of times. If anyone can offer any words of support right now, it really would be appreciated.

[kells76]

Hello phoenix blue and

It's a courageous first step to share some of your story here. You'll be among friends who really get the challenges of BPD relationships. If you are ever unsure of what or how much to post, you can consider saving it first in a text or notepad file (for example), getting to an emotional baseline, and re-reading it a few hours or day later -- see how you feel then.

What I find interesting about your post is that part of you is talking about another part of you:

one part of you believes what she tells you about yourself; the other part of you has enough awareness to say, Hey, I notice myself buying into her perceptions.

So, to me, it seems like at least some part of you remains your authentic self, who is ok with questioning whether she is really ruler of the universe and ultimate arbiter of reality in your life.

Would it be accurate to say you're conflicted about what you want (staying with her vs leaving), or is it more that at some level you are choosing for the relationship to be over permanently, but are concerned about her influence over you?

(And if you aren't comfortable answering this, that's fine -- curious if the two of you have any children together)?

[phoenix blue]

Yes we are married and have children.

I know in my heart of hearts that the relationship is toxic. Mixed with incredible highs and unbelievable lows. Today I summoned the courage to say enough is enough and I have walked out. Of course I am in conflict I love her more than words can describe. I know she is in pain, and for her I am the root cause of her pain. It is incredibly confusing, head wrecking and soul destroying, my heart is broken.

[phoenix blue]

and yes, I am absolutely concerned about the influence she has over me.

[XianJaneway]

and yes, I am absolutely concerned about the influence she has over me.

Genuine Question: would she ever, once, question her version of reality, to help soothe or comfort you?

[phoenix blue]

The simple answer to that is NO.

I try and explain, I am shot down. I have tried to fight my corner, but have learned that the consequences are not worth it. At some point I am sort of forgiven until next time it is used to beat me down again. She has a mental list of every single thing that i have done wrong.

[kells76]

How old are your kids?

[ForeverDad]

I have gradually lost all of my family and friends and feel completely isolated. Over the years i have had it ingrained into me not to talk to anyone as it is a betrayal of trust.

This was my experience too, many here felt forced to divest ourselves of friends and family until we have virtually no friendly faces or support.  Now, by taking an honest, even scary, look at yourself and your dire situation, you've taken the first step on a path toward eventual recovery and a better future for yourself and your children.

Since we're discussing BPD - or behaviors that indicate BPD - it is good to note that counseling or therapy, whichever word feels best, is one of the best approaches to take.

Of course, not all therapists are equally experienced and insightful, but you would do well to seek out professional insight.  Be forewarned that your spouse will likely oppose you, even making demands and ultimatums.  So perhaps at first you don't have to share with her that decision?  Perhaps you can get a few sessions under your belt?

The first counselor may or may not be a good fit for you.  I recall when I first sought individual counseling, the lady seemed focused only on my background FOO (Family of Origin).  After three sessions she hadn't yet even made one suggestion on how to deal with my then-spouse rants, rages and ultimatums, I was so disappointed and quit.  My marriage was already failing and it crashed and burned a few months later.  I had a few of my ducks in a row by then but I was woefully unprepared.  In later months and years I found a couple better counselors but by then it was to pick up the pieces.

Their advice was to make it a priority to take care of myself, then I could better help my young one.  Not that we don't consistently advocate for our children - always - but also work toward recovery ourselves.  So, two priorities.  As the airline safety protocol goes, "Put on your own oxygen mask first, then help others."

Notice I didn't mention your partner.  (And best not to mention Borderline around her, she's likely to Deny, Blame and Blame Shift.)  Most acting-out persons with BPD traits (acting-out indicates the person is especially harmful to others) resist setting aside their skewed perceptions.  She's not truly listening to you because BPD is a disorder most impacting to close relationships and she can't truly listen to you with all her emotional baggage of the past with you.  Does that make sense?  For that reason, an emotionally neutral professional might make progress that you never were allowed to accomplish.

Don't let me get ahead of myself.  That's just a overview of some future steps, along with some cautions.  Right now you need a few deep breaths and calmness to get past this most recent episode so that you can decide your next steps.

[ParentingThruIt]

I think many of us have felt the way you feel. I have been out for several months but still question my reality and whether I was "just missing something" or have been the cause of his pain and decisions as he claims.

In those moments, it helps to remember his more extreme behaviors, the moments when I realized, whoa, even if I am the worst person ever, that was not an appropriate response. You might also remember that your ex is an adult and can make their own decisions; if you are toxic they can choose to leave. Something is wrong if they stay and blame for so long and refuse to work on things with you.

Having space helps with these thoughts and having a therapist and some trusted confidants has helped me.  It has taken a lot and it's a work in progress to clear my thinking and stick to my guns.

Please think about your kids. Are they safe with her? can you take them with you? Try to talk with a lawyer about how any decisions you make could affect custody. The book Splitting (about high conflict divorce) is helpful.

[phoenix blue]

Thank you for your messages of understanding. It's all so very exhausting. It's been a very hard day (and i am sure for her too). Had stood firm and not responded to a torrent of messages and calls. The last one mentioned that communication  with the kids would be via a 3rd party. To be them immediately followed by a crisis that I am needed to help with. I very reluctantly engaged as my daughter was begging for me to hel. I offered to help but that I would do so from a distance.

I feel awful for not going to see her, but now come all the accusations that I don't care that I am an awful person and she has now managed to involve one of our children... i have remained calm through out, spoken gently but firmly and explained that I will not be shouted out at or criticized [ I do recognize this as a similar pattern to other times when I have tried to stand firm) I am now the devil incarnate and several accusations are now flying my way, designed to really cut me to the core.... I feel I need to try somehow de-escalate the situation, however the only success I have had in doing that previously has been to get on my knees,  beg for forgiveness  admit to all the things I have done 'wrong' and then right those 'wrongs'.

I am listening to the advice on here, it's just that I am on the back foot trying to deal with everything that is getting thrown my way. From a therapy perspective yes I should probably go to help me process this. However any suggestion of us or her going to therapy, counseling will be met with wrath.  I don't believe the kids are in any level of danger. Although she has already started the smear campaign which is a new one. I did think earlier that maybe it is just easier to get back on my knees. I am aware of the pain that lies ahead for me  and just not sure I can stomach it.

[jaded7]

Thank you for your messages of understanding. It's all so very exhausting. It's been a very hard day (and i am sure for her too). Had stood firm and not responded to a torrent of messages and calls. The last one mentioned that communication  with the kids would be via a 3rd party. To be them immediately followed by a crisis that I am needed to help with. I very reluctantly engaged as my daughter was begging for me to hel. I offered to help but that I would do so from a distance. I feel awful for not going to see her, but now come all the accusations that I don't care that I am an awful person and she has now managed to involve one of our children... i have remained calm through out, spoken ge tly but firmly and explained that I will not be shouted out at or criticised [ I do recognise this as a similar pattern to other times when I have tried to stand firm) I am now the devil incarnate and several accusations are now flying my way, designed to really cut me to the core.... I feel I need to try somehow descelate the situation, however the only success I have had in doing that previously has been to get on my knees,  beg for forgiveness  admit to all the things I have done 'wrong' and then right those 'wrongs'. I  ps. I am listening to the advice on here, it's just that I am on the back foot trying to deal with everything that is getting thrown my way. From a therapy perspective yes I should probably go to help me process this. However any suggestion of us or her going to therapy, counselling will be met with wrath.  I don't believe the kids are in any level of danger. Although she has already started the smear campaign which is a new one. I did think earlier that maybe it is just easier to get back on my knees. I am aware of the pain that lies ahead for me  and just not sure I can stomach it.

The torrent of messages and callls- super common in these relationships, it's the panic at the perceived 'abandonment'. It makes no sense, of course, but is a super common tactic to wear you down and get you to finally respond. Usually involved creating more and more urgent situations, until you (a reasonable person) thinks 'wow, I'd better see what's up with this'. Usually something that would call into question your manhood or parenting. Or bringing in your children. These are manipulations, of course.

The thing is...it is easier to get back on your knees, beg forgiveness, say you're sorry for whatever you might have don. That's how we get to this point in the relationships. But the healthy thing to do is to establish boundaries, which is hard...very hard sometimes.

We are here....take it step by step. You did something good by resisting the many messages and calls today. Not all of them, sure, but most of them. That's a good step.

So sorry you have to deal with all this, but there are many good people here to support you.

[SinisterComplex]

Hey PB, just letting you know I will be checking in on you as well and offering my own welcome to the fam. 

Ask as many questions as you need to and share as much as you want to. Above all else, please be kind to you and please take care of yourself.

Cheers and Best Wishes!

-SC-

[phoenix blue]

Thanks SC and Jaded.

A new day today. I find.myself trying to predict what will happen. I am unsure of this is for me to prepare for it or whether it is my way of trying to have some control. In writing that, it has just dawned on me, that actually  makes no sense.  It doesn't matter what she does. I may be ignored, berated, guilt tripped, love bombed, having to deal with another crisis, or kids used to hurt me etc etc ...but actually that puts her firmly in  control.  ....   I need to grow a pair. I am realising that this is not just a battle with her. The most important battle is my own internal one. See a lawyer, find somewhere to live, focus on my career, on my kids, look after my physical health, get hobbies, possibly a dog, probably a therapist, and do all I can to break free from this cycle.  Yet it is all very scarey, I need to take action but am plagued with inaction and paralysed with fear.   Can't afford to run two households, she will take me to the cleaners  with the divorce, custody battle will be awful, I will be alone in 4 walls and the family life I so much love just a heartbreaking memory, I will be lucky to have a career as I won't be able to function properly, I have no friends,  should I live close to them or run to the hills, maybe we can sort it out, I lover her, I can put up with it and then full circle again.....   aaaaargh I hate this. How the hell have I let myself get into this relationship and into this position?

Like I say the most important battle is my internal one.

[15years]

Questioning if you're making the right decision can be a very intense feeling and you may feel very emotional. It can also probably make you feel low/depressed and you might lose interest in actually leaving. Going back to what is comfortable/normal/"safe" is very tempting during those two "feelings".

My T used a metaphor, if you see this challenge as a big wave - try to have the mindset that you're going to ride the wave until it has passed.

[phoenix blue]

Good advice and I am trying to do it. I have  just booked in with a lawyer, and going to view apartments. I am trying to go on automatic pilot knowing what needs to be done whilst dealing with and trying to process the whirlwind of thoughts and emotions. Its tempting to bury my head in the sand and just see what happens, or to reengage. But for now I am just trying to keep moving forward.

I suppose it was my determination that has made me last so long in the relationship, hopefully I can rechannel that to get me through to the other side.

[ParentingThruIt]

"Can't afford to run two households, she will take me to the cleaners  with the divorce, custody battle will be awful, I will be alone in 4 walls and the family life I so much love just a heartbreaking memory, I will be lucky to have a career as I won't be able to function properly, I have no friends,  should I live close to them or run to the hills, maybe we can sort it out, I lover her, I can put up with it and then full circle again.....   aaaaargh I hate this. How the hell have I let myself get into this relationship and into this position?"

These are legit scary things to face in this process. I'm less than a year out and was fortunate to get sole custody of the kids. I will say that even in the moments that looked the darkest and scariest, staring into the black hole of the worst possible outcomes, I was glad I got that time with my kids without him messing with me. I was able to care for them and do things for them that were just not possible with his interference. I wasn't being micromanaged or controlled anymore and I didn't have to worry about his emotional states and put emotional labor into that minute to minute.  Even though I had twice as much logistical work to do, and grief and everything else, time like that with my kids was worth it.

I totally agree with your thoughts to put your energy into the positive places. You already know what happens when you put energy into her. Unfortunately you can't control the outcome and it hasn't been a good bet. She has to decide whether and how to take care of herself. A lawyer can help you with the financial pieces. And do think about the kids and whether you'd propose to stay in your home with them and have her leave etc.

The Stop Walking on Eggshells workbook has been good for helping me process the dynamic and emotional impact. Splitting has helped with the logistics/tactics of divorce and interaction.

It IS very hard but you're doing the right thing.  For yourself and your kids.

[phoenix blue]

Hey Parenting T,  I am so pleased that you were able to take the steps you needed to take and that you can see  (or are in) the light at the end of the tunnel.

The splitting thing is confusing me a little bit.  She hasn't contacted me today (she has gone on the family holiday that we were supposed to go on,) yesterday we had the crisis that needed me to go and be with her whilst she is telling g me how badly I am treating her, I wi t be seeing the kids unless through a third party....

Is this some sort of split tactic to hedge her bets, to mess with my head or what.... can anyone explain that.

I believe she has split, but some insight would be good .

[ForeverDad]

I need to grow a pair. I am realising that this is not just a battle with her. The most important battle is my own internal one.

Growing a pair is another way of, partly, stating you need to develop strong but practical boundaries.  PwBPD or other acting-out disorders typically resist boundaries.  So rather than trying to set boundaries on her which would likely fail, instead your boundaries will be what you will do or not do in response to her boundary busting.

Examples can be that if she rants and rages, then you would exit, with the kids if possible.

The pattern at its most basic essentially might be like this, "If you do or don't do ___ then I will do or not do ___."  A boundary is what you would do in response to misbehavior.

See the Boundaries topics here:
Tools and Skills workshops

[phoenix blue]

Thanks for your words on boundaries
, very useful and a good reminder to me.  I have so far not been engaging at all. (well for a couple of days at least  and the major crisis that I needed to attend to ) 

I am unsure whether I should keep like this  or engage but only with my boundaries. Do I explain to her what my boundaries are or just set them for myself and carry them through if they are crossed.

To protect my state of mind and resolve I think it is better not to engage but I am unsure if this is short sighted as there are a lot of things that need to be sorted, preferably with lawyers involved. ... its like a minefield this

[phoenix blue]

* without lawyers involved

[ForeverDad]

Do I explain to her what my boundaries are or just set them for myself and carry them through if they are crossed.

Well, you would have to inform her that you see a need to set boundaries and in general what it would mean.  It's not like you would have a 20 point list.  It could be basic to encompass how you would guide your interactions.

Here's one of my posts on apologies.  Notice the switch where I realized I needed to stop doing what wasn't working, that is, appeasing.  However, despite my effort to make it clear, it did not turn around the relationship, she didn't have a sudden insight, it was still a looming slow motion train wreck, but at least I was starting to work on myself.

I too experienced the ages-old claims of earlier years.  The person just wouldn't let it go.  I was also pressured to apologize.  Unfortunately, one apology wasn't enough.  It became repeated and even had to be worded the right way, her way.  After a year of trying the appeasing route I said, "That's it, no more, I will apologize only when it is merited."  (Yes, the marriage ended within a year after that, but it was imploding anyway.)

You stayed there and eventually ended up caving to her endless tirades.  Once you discern she's working herself up to one of those, that too can be a boundary, "I can't be a part of this, I have to take a walk in the park, work on the car, go to the gym, I'll return when things are back to normal."

She will still try other ways to verbally attack and weaken you, but these are some ideas how to start protecting yourself.

[phoenix blue]

My step daughter has phoned me asking to help mum. That mum is in a mess amd struggling.  I know that mum is trying to keep it together but in the same sense she is putting a lot on to my step daughte. I am worried for both my wife and my step daughter. I honestly don't know how to help or what I should do.

Also i am stuck between a rock and a hard place here.  The narrative of my failings as husband and father are being passed on to my step daughter.... well he doesn't care about us if he won't come and help.....


Is there anything I can say to my SD (16)  to support her,  does she need to understand the situaion or is that purely selfish on my part? She just wants to take away her mums pain.

Should I try and engage with her mum?

[ForeverDad]

Here's a few considerations:

• Reaching out to help her mother would just restart prior cycles of dysfunction, like putting a band aid over an infected wound.
• You already know you can't 'fix' her mother.  With undiagnosed BPD, the impact of the prior close relationship and her perception of the emotional baggage of the ended relationship blinds her to whatever help you could offer.
• Only an experienced therapist could, over years of meaningful sessions, guide her to recovery.  Problem is, she would likely resist it, with Denial, Blaming and Blame Shifting.
• Although your SD16 is a minor, she'll be an adult in a year or so.

What a conundrum, no intervention you do would could help matters long term. Or... might there be something remaining you haven't tried?  Hmm...

Here's an idea... Can you in some way provide help for SD16 instead?  Legally, as a stepfather, you may or may not be a legal guardian for the teenager (please research that) but is there advice or a path to resources that could benefit her?

Simplest start... School is about to resume classes soon.  She could reach out to her school counselors about her home environment.  Yes, they do more than schedule classes.  That is a suggestion I don't imagine even her mother could block.

One step further, you could admit you've realized you can't actually help her mother, it would end badly no matter what you did or didn't do.  But, your insight for SD16 is that she herself can seek counseling on how best to deal with her mother's dysfunction and discord.  After all, isn't that what we suggested to you?  If it would work for you, why shouldn't it work for SD16 too?

However, her mother might oppose her getting counseling since it would expose mother's poor behaviors.  What then?  In that case, she might do well to seek counseling with the aid of teen advocacy services.

The point is you can't fix her mother but you can guide her daughter, even from a distance, in the direction of solutions that will strengthen her daughter's ability to learn tools and skills so she can cope with her mother's chaos.

Lastly, I assume you haven't mentioned "BPD" to her mother?  It usually doesn't help to mention the name of a possible diagnostic label (such as BPD - Borderline Personality Disorder) to the affected person.  They overreact to such concepts, it impacts their self-perceptions that all problems are caused by others, not themselves.  So don't tell her mother what your conclusions were regarding diagnostic terms.  You'd even have to be cautious about sharing your conclusions with SD16 since she might blurt it out in a frustrating moment with her mother.

All the above is assuming the only child in the family unit is SD16.  Please update us if there are other children.

[phoenix blue]

I have 2 step, and 1 shared

They are oblivious to any behaviours. They know mum is sensitive and worries a lot. The eldest is starting to question  certain responses or perceptions, but little more. Mum is a very good mum in many ways.

[ForeverDad]

Mum is a very good mum in many ways.

But the reality is that in other ways she is not a good mum.  Taking an average of good and bad does not make her an okay mom.

Your marriage is failing - the time apart indicates that - and it appears nothing has worked thus far.  The pattern we often see here is that the relationship does fail, depending on whether you continue apologizing and appeasing as before...  or you get your ducks in a row.  Often the difference is how much you care about yourself and especially how much you care about the children.

For starters, all the children would benefit from experienced counselors/therapists.  Even if the youngest is very young, there's play therapy that is helpful.  (My child was 3 years old when years of counseling began.)

The downside is that your spouse would likely refuse to allow it.  (I was in the divorce process, the marriage having already failed, and my lawyer told me "Courts love counseling."  So if one spouse opposes counseling for the kids, court is likely to side with the other parent to allow it, at least for the shared child.)

[phoenix blue]

Thanks for these words Forever Dad..

SD16 wrote to me asking why I keep ignoring BDP mum.
I succumb and spoke with her. After 7 hours of conversation, once again I am left really questioning my version of events/reality, of being made to feel guilty of hearing her pain.

During the call, I was cold, she was warn.
I was resolute that things are over, I stuck  to my guns. It was like I was playing a game of BPD Bingo at times. Recognising traits, words  and patterns.

At times I gave her her words back of why I am so bad and why we should not be together. She was asking why a few days earlier I had been begging her forgiveness expressing my undying love for her, and then suddenly like I have fallen out of love and don't care about her and the kids. I explained that after me being let back home,  her having some sort of psychosis and things rapidly escalating/denigrating, regardless of my gentleness and vulnerabili and attempts to makre things better. I had decided that it was dangerous for both me and her to remain in this relationship. I didn't mention that I had also found strength from  here or that I thought she had BPD.

I also said that if it was me my words, or actions that is the cause of these  psychosis episodes (sorry I don't know what they are but they are scary amd worrying as hell amd she has had several over the years). Then I need to leave.  She actually said it was not me, but her anxiety amd then got very noticeably upset, she mentioned therapy/medication but I pulled back from requesting it or suggesting it.

Obviously there was a lot more said on the 7 hours.

I am left devastated. Feeling awful. Confused. At times it felt that she had a tiny bit of insight into herself the majority of the time I was holding the phone away from me shaking my head in disbelief.

I probably came across that I was punishing her, seeking revenge. Being told that I was hurting her that i was being cruel, that my Sd16 thinks I am cruel, I pointed out that this didn't matter a few days ago to her when she kicked me out and wouldn't let me see my youngest  despite me begging , pleading, completely devastated.

Whilst i dont think i showed it. I think that she has cracked my resolve. I think I may actually want her to succeed in doing so.
 
Apologies if there are many typos. Not much sleep.

 

[15years]

After 7 hours of conversation you can't think clearly. This is the time when you just have to accept that you can't take your thoughts 100 % seriously.

Get some sleep, distance, and time before taking your thoughts seriously. Notice the confusion. What is your level of confusion now vs. what is your level of confusion when you realize that the rs has to end.

This is what I remind myself of every Sunday, and about this time on Mondays (3 pm for me now btw) my sense of reality is in a much better state.

[jaded7]

Oh have we been there. The hours-long 'conversations' that just go around and around, and the holding the phone away from the
ears to try and get some sort of reality-testing in.....is she really saying this?? is she really believing these things to be true?

You are super tired and your mind is CONFUSED now. Rest and rest. Get into nature for a while and let reality settle back in.

These conversations are the very heart of interacting with a partner wBPD. What's true? What's not true?

When we doubt ourselves, we are in a vulnerable position. My last conversation with my ex was like this.....untruth after untruth, rearranging and
reordering events, things that were said denied, things that weren't said asserted. I remember calling my friend after that conversation and
saying to him "I think she is mentally ill". That may have been my most clear moment.

"I probably came across that I was punishing her, seeking revenge. Being told that I was hurting her that i was being cruel, that my Sd16 thinks I am cruel, I pointed out that this didn't matter a few days ago to her when she kicked me out and wouldn't let me see my youngest  despite me begging , pleading, completely devastated."

I'll just confirm that this is indeed confusing. You aren't crazy. It's a perfect example of how there is no way to 'win', as if we are in a contest we didn't know
we were in. I was told by my ex that I was "punishing and cruel" myself, even though I never intended to punish her and be cruel. I NEVER wanted to hurt her, and
those words made me feel SOOO bad about myself. Which was, of course, the point. Meanwhile, she is the one who belittled me and called me names, she is the one who ignored my texts and calls for days, left for weekend with friends without me, yelled at me and belittled me. Which are by definition punishing and cruel.

You are really confused right now, sleep and rest and nutrition and exercise will help

[ForeverDad]

How can a neutral observer describe it?

The pwBPD may not quite be eligible for commitment to an institution but it is that in-between world where something is definitely wrong.

[phoenix blue]

Thanks all.

Saga continues......long story short. I need to go and provide some practical and emotional support because of a major issue. It is a genuine thing although it does come with the words that I am abandoning them in their hour of need and how can I be so cold etc.

I do feel detached, I do feel cold, and somewhat indifferent about the crisis that can potentially have major implications on the family. This is a million miles away from the loving, supportive and caring husband and dad that I am and that I have been.  But it feels like I cannot unsee what I have seen and knowing what I now know about BPD it feels like an impossible task to be "normal". Which is going to hurt and shock both ny wife and SD16 and there will be ramifications.


Appreciate that this may come across as heartless and self centred and that I should probably park all of my turmoil I'm order to help and support and get them through these next days weeks, months. I just don't know if I can.

I remember a time whem my life was simple!!!