How daughter's first "visitation" with her uBPD dad went

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I agreed to let stbxH see D4 last weekend for the first time since I left him. I told him he can pick her up from preschool on Friday and then drop her off Monday morning. I figured it would benefit me a little anyway because it was the weekend before I had to return to work after summer vacation (I'm faculty at a college), so having a break from having to care for D4 gave me a chance to work on preparing my classes over the weekend.

On Saturday he sent me a message on the parenting app saying D4 was sick. He said she had a cough and a runny nose and a low fever of 99 degrees. That wasn't too big of a surprise. She often gets sick at the beginning of the fall semester when all the kids are going back to school and mixing their germs. He also added that he was starting to feel like he caught it from her. I actually felt a bit lucky that by letting him have her that particular weekend I managed to avoid that.

Then Sunday he messaged me again saying she's still sick. I messaged him back asking if he thinks she'll need to stay home from Monday, and he offered to call in sick to work and stay home Monday with her, especially since he's feeling sick too. I told him OK, but right after that the thought crossed my mind that he might be lying in order to keep her another day. I did a video call with her Sunday evening, and she was sounding hoarse, so he probably wasn't lying.

I video called again Monday after work, and she was feeling much better. StbxH said she hasn't had a fever all day, but still has a cough. I asked him if he's going to take her to school tomorrow, and he said, "I'm not sure yet." I told him she can go back to school as soon as she's fever-free for 24 hours, and that the cough will probably linger for a long time after that.

So I spent Tuesday morning worrying that he was going to keep D4 longer until I got the message on her preschool's app that she had been checked in.

I picked her up Tuesday, and that evening went fine until bedtime, when she suddenly had an emotional meltdown, sobbing about how she misses Dada. It was a bit of a surprise to me, because she hasn't acted like she missed Dada this whole time until then. She finally started asking me all the hard questions that I had been dreading: Why did you leave Dada? Why do you live in a different place than Dada now? When are you and Dada going to be together again?

I tried my best to be honest with her, like I've read about. I told her, "Remember how Dada would have those big fights? Well, I decided the fights were too scary, and decided I didn't want to live with him anymore." Then she replied that Dada, "hasn't fought in days and days," and we should give him another chance. I didn't have the heart to tell her that Dada and I are never getting back together again, so when she asked about that, I just told her "I don't know." She also kept sobbing about how when she's with me she misses Dada, and when she's with Dada she misses me.

It was pretty horrible. I was up until about 10 pm holding her in my lap with her crying until she finally fell asleep, then she woke up crying again at around 2 am.

I texted my best friends about this later, and they thought it was very suspicious that D4 had been fine and not missing him until then, and suspected that stbxH had said some things to her to get her upset. I told them it could also be that he spent the whole weekend spoiling her and giving her lots of attention (like he should have been doing her whole life!), so of course she's going to miss him after that.

Thankfully the next morning she felt better, and I didn't have much trouble getting her to preschool and getting myself to work. But then later that day stbx started messaging me about how he wants her again the next weekend, because since D4 was sick, they weren't able to do the fun things they had planned, and that's not fair. He also said it wasn't fair that he didn't see her for three weeks straight, so I need to make up that time to him. I told him I already had plans for next weekend, but he kept messaging about how this isn't fair. Then I told him the next weekend is Labor Day, so he can have her that weekend, and that's a three-day weekend so he'll have her an extra day. Finally he asked if he could have her Thursday evening, and I told him that would be OK.

I didn't tell him this, but I'm trying to stick as much as possible to our state's Standard Possession Order, even though he's refusing to agree to it. And under that, he would get her every Thursday evening and over Labor Day weekend, so I went ahead and agreed to that.

But then Thursday morning when I told D4 that Dada was going to pick her up from school today and she was going to spend that night with him, she asked me why does she spend more time with me than she does with Dada. I told her, "It's because I take care of you more than Dada. I always have, remember? I'm the one who gives you baths and gets you ready for school and ready for bed and everything, right?" She said, "Yes, but Dada said he's the one who takes care of me more." I was like, "Oh really? He said that?" and then asked her if she thinks that's really true. She said, "No, and Dada doesn't do things right either," and then went on to tell me about how when she was with Dada he didn't give her a bath "right" or brush her hair "right" and things like that.

So then I really started to suspect that my friends were right, and he was saying manipulative things to her, but I had already agreed to let him have her Thursday evening, so he did.

Then when I picked her up Friday, the first thing she said to me when we were heading to the car was, "Mama, would you pleeeaaase get back together with Dada? Dada is very sorry about the fighting and he promises he'll never do it again, so please move back in with him!" I asked her if Dada asked her to say that to me, and she said yes. Then I told her, "Remember how Dada promised he would stop fighting lots of times before, but then he'd keep doing it?" and she said, "Yes, but this time he says he promises and he really means it this time, so pleeeeaaase move back in with Dada! When are you going to get back together with Dada?"

I decided to try to steer the conversation in another direction, and asked her if she likes the apartment I live in now, and she said yes. She talked a little about the things she likes, like the pool, and then she asked what her "real" home is now, and I told her she has two homes now, and she seemed to be happy with that.

Then Friday I got a message from my lawyer's office saying stbxH's lawyer sent them his counter-proposal for the temporary orders. He's asking for a 50/50, week-on/week-off possession schedule, and as for child support, he only wants to pay for half of D4's preschool tuition, since that is our "joint expense," but that's far short of the standard 20% child support our state defaults to.

My lawyer's office asked if I would like to set up an appointment to talk to my lawyer next week about this, and I got an appointment for Thursday.

StbxH wants to pick D4 up Thursday next week and drop her off Tuesday after Labor Day, and I agreed to that since that's how the standard possession schedule would go, but it's going to be hard for me not seeing D4 for that long. The last time he had her, I liked having the break for about two days, but by Sunday was really missing her.

So he wants a 50/50 week on/week off possession schedule for our 4 year old, which is absolutely not OK with me, and he's also trying to get out of paying child support, but then he's been spending his time with D4 telling her to relay messages to me begging me to get back together with him. So I've been pretty angry this whole week. And then I'm not going to see her for five days next week.

I really hope the meeting with my lawyer goes well next week and she tells me there's no way a judge would agree to what he's proposed. I've been reading up on possession schedules, and it looks like week-on/week-off schedules are rare, and only done with older kids, like teenagers, not preschoolers. And when he was begging me to come back to him, one of the things he started promising was that he'd start paying more of the bills, since he makes so much more money than me, but now he's trying to pay much less child support than even what the state standard is. Ugh, I really hope that this makes him look like a total jerk to the judge.

[Gerda]

I agreed to let stbxH see D4 last weekend for the first time since I left him. I told him he can pick her up from preschool on Friday and then drop her off Monday morning. I figured it would benefit me a little anyway because it was the weekend before I had to return to work after summer vacation (I'm faculty at a college), so having a break from having to care for D4 gave me a chance to work on preparing my classes over the weekend.

On Saturday he sent me a message on the parenting app saying D4 was sick. He said she had a cough and a runny nose and a low fever of 99 degrees. That wasn't too big of a surprise. She often gets sick at the beginning of the fall semester when all the kids are going back to school and mixing their germs. He also added that he was starting to feel like he caught it from her. I actually felt a bit lucky that by letting him have her that particular weekend I managed to avoid that.

Then Sunday he messaged me again saying she's still sick. I messaged him back asking if he thinks she'll need to stay home from Monday, and he offered to call in sick to work and stay home Monday with her, especially since he's feeling sick too. I told him OK, but right after that the thought crossed my mind that he might be lying in order to keep her another day. I did a video call with her Sunday evening, and she was sounding hoarse, so he probably wasn't lying.

I video called again Monday after work, and she was feeling much better. StbxH said she hasn't had a fever all day, but still has a cough. I asked him if he's going to take her to school tomorrow, and he said, "I'm not sure yet." I told him she can go back to school as soon as she's fever-free for 24 hours, and that the cough will probably linger for a long time after that.

So I spent Tuesday morning worrying that he was going to keep D4 longer until I got the message on her preschool's app that she had been checked in.

I picked her up Tuesday, and that evening went fine until bedtime, when she suddenly had an emotional meltdown, sobbing about how she misses Dada. It was a bit of a surprise to me, because she hasn't acted like she missed Dada this whole time until then. She finally started asking me all the hard questions that I had been dreading: Why did you leave Dada? Why do you live in a different place than Dada now? When are you and Dada going to be together again?

I tried my best to be honest with her, like I've read about. I told her, "Remember how Dada would have those big fights? Well, I decided the fights were too scary, and decided I didn't want to live with him anymore." Then she replied that Dada, "hasn't fought in days and days," and we should give him another chance. I didn't have the heart to tell her that Dada and I are never getting back together again, so when she asked about that, I just told her "I don't know." She also kept sobbing about how when she's with me she misses Dada, and when she's with Dada she misses me.

It was pretty horrible. I was up until about 10 pm holding her in my lap with her crying until she finally fell asleep, then she woke up crying again at around 2 am.

I texted my best friends about this later, and they thought it was very suspicious that D4 had been fine and not missing him until then, and suspected that stbxH had said some things to her to get her upset. I told them it could also be that he spent the whole weekend spoiling her and giving her lots of attention (like he should have been doing her whole life!), so of course she's going to miss him after that.

Thankfully the next morning she felt better, and I didn't have much trouble getting her to preschool and getting myself to work. But then later that day stbx started messaging me about how he wants her again the next weekend, because since D4 was sick, they weren't able to do the fun things they had planned, and that's not fair. He also said it wasn't fair that he didn't see her for three weeks straight, so I need to make up that time to him. I told him I already had plans for next weekend, but he kept messaging about how this isn't fair. Then I told him the next weekend is Labor Day, so he can have her that weekend, and that's a three-day weekend so he'll have her an extra day. Finally he asked if he could have her Thursday evening, and I told him that would be OK.

I didn't tell him this, but I'm trying to stick as much as possible to our state's Standard Possession Order, even though he's refusing to agree to it. And under that, he would get her every Thursday evening and over Labor Day weekend, so I went ahead and agreed to that.

But then Thursday morning when I told D4 that Dada was going to pick her up from school today and she was going to spend that night with him, she asked me why does she spend more time with me than she does with Dada. I told her, "It's because I take care of you more than Dada. I always have, remember? I'm the one who gives you baths and gets you ready for school and ready for bed and everything, right?" She said, "Yes, but Dada said he's the one who takes care of me more." I was like, "Oh really? He said that?" and then asked her if she thinks that's really true. She said, "No, and Dada doesn't do things right either," and then went on to tell me about how when she was with Dada he didn't give her a bath "right" or brush her hair "right" and things like that.

So then I really started to suspect that my friends were right, and he was saying manipulative things to her, but I had already agreed to let him have her Thursday evening, so he did.

Then when I picked her up Friday, the first thing she said to me when we were heading to the car was, "Mama, would you pleeeaaase get back together with Dada? Dada is very sorry about the fighting and he promises he'll never do it again, so please move back in with him!" I asked her if Dada asked her to say that to me, and she said yes. Then I told her, "Remember how Dada promised he would stop fighting lots of times before, but then he'd keep doing it?" and she said, "Yes, but this time he says he promises and he really means it this time, so pleeeeaaase move back in with Dada! When are you going to get back together with Dada?"

I decided to try to steer the conversation in another direction, and asked her if she likes the apartment I live in now, and she said yes. She talked a little about the things she likes, like the pool, and then she asked what her "real" home is now, and I told her she has two homes now, and she seemed to be happy with that.

Then Friday I got a message from my lawyer's office saying stbxH's lawyer sent them his counter-proposal for the temporary orders. He's asking for a 50/50, week-on/week-off possession schedule, and as for child support, he only wants to pay for half of D4's preschool tuition, since that is our "joint expense," but that's far short of the standard 20% child support our state defaults to.

My lawyer's office asked if I would like to set up an appointment to talk to my lawyer next week about this, and I got an appointment for Thursday.

StbxH wants to pick D4 up Thursday next week and drop her off Tuesday after Labor Day, and I agreed to that since that's how the standard possession schedule would go, but it's going to be hard for me not seeing D4 for that long. The last time he had her, I liked having the break for about two days, but by Sunday was really missing her.

So he wants a 50/50 week on/week off possession schedule for our 4 year old, which is absolutely not OK with me, and he's also trying to get out of paying child support, but then he's been spending his time with D4 telling her to relay messages to me begging me to get back together with him. So I've been pretty angry this whole week. And then I'm not going to see her for five days next week.

I really hope the meeting with my lawyer goes well next week and she tells me there's no way a judge would agree to what he's proposed. I've been reading up on possession schedules, and it looks like week-on/week-off schedules are rare, and only done with older kids, like teenagers, not preschoolers. And when he was begging me to come back to him, one of the things he started promising was that he'd start paying more of the bills, since he makes so much more money than me, but now he's trying to pay much less child support than even what the state standard is. Ugh, I really hope that this makes him look like a total jerk to the judge.

[ForeverDad]

Equal time is far too much, based on past historical pattern of you doing the majority of parenting.  Here's a prior post about equal time which your ex is manipulating for... and trying to take advantage of your sense of fairness.

My Custody Evaluator, a respected child psychologist, stated preschoolers and elementary schoolers (he stated up to the age of 10 years) did best with 2-2-3 schedules*, similar to what you have, splitting each week.

* 2-2-3 is an equal time schedule that allows each parent to have an alternate weekend: Mon-Tue overnight with one parent, Wed-Thu overnight with other parent, Fri-Sat-Sun overnights alternated between parents.

What happened in my court orders:  When our order changed when my son was about 11 years old, I told my lawyer I wanted a change to alternate weeks.  That was for my benefit, my ex used exchanges to play games with me and disparage me.  My lawyer replied, "Do you want the court to believe your kid would do better apart from you longer?"  I didn't change it.

Since you have a history of doing the vast majority of parenting, don't waver on his complaining that you're not being fair, even arguing he needs make-up time for the past three weeks.  He's counting on your sense of fairness to sabotage yourself.

I'll tell the story how my son reacted when my ex was out of the house.  (Police had come and I ended up with a temp protection order and possession of the home.)  He was a little over 3.5 years old.

When the police took away my then-spouse, we had about 6 days before she popped back in our lives.  Her absence was palpable.  The silence was deafening!   My preschooler awoke during the first couple nights and asked where she was and then went right back to sleep.  Never asked again.  After a few days we were making cookies and I mentioned her, thinking to be "fair"  but he refused to talk about her, pulled me back into mixing the batter.  Of course, when she popped back into our lives, she kept saying how much he missed her.

That wasn't the end of the story.  After our mutual protection orders were dismissed a few months later, she blocked all father-child contact for over three months.  Meanwhile, I filed for divorce and got some help from court at the temp order hearing.  Once the magistrate, same one we had months before, verified from her that she had blocked my parental contact for 3 months he then remarked, "I'll fix that."  He used the same alternate weekend schedule for me as before.  No consequences for her.  No make-up time for me.  Insult on top of injury, she managed to convince the magistrate to delay our reunion by at least a day since she was going to be out of town Saturday for a religious event and wanted to take son with her.  (How critical was the event for a 4 year old to go with her?  Why couldn't she have gone and let me have my full weekend?  He hadn't seen me for over three months!)

Well, once he was with me we had a good time.  He was daddy's boy after all.  All too soon it was time for him to go to the exchange.  Oh, my!  He locked himself in his room, I had to carry him out to the car literally kicking and screaming and sit next to him while my brother drove.  He was sobbing, refused to look at me and eventually fell asleep.  I realized only then that he thought he was going to live with me and felt betrayed.  For the next few years exchanges had a pattern, he would come running to me but be fussing, resisting and even sobbing on returns.  In time the exchanges became the norm and by the time he was 9 years old he was okay with them.

Clearly too he's pressuring your D4 to wear down your decisions.  Acting-out people with serious disorders aren't dumb, they've had their entire lives to become expert manipulators to get what they want.  Don't fall for it.  So sad that he's using your daughter to get his way but you've learned from the past that you can't trust his promises.  (Around here, BPD promises rank right up there with our own hopes and dreams... they didn't last.)

[livednlearned]

How did D4 respond when you said you didn't know if you and her dad might get back together?

[Gerda]

How did D4 respond when you said you didn't know if you and her dad might get back together?

At the time she was so upset that it didn't make much difference. That was Tuesday night, the first night I had her back, and had to hold her in my arms with her uncontrollably sobbing until at least 10 pm.

My therapist said that some time when she's in a calmer mood I should sit her down and explain to her that we're never getting back together. Though this was on Friday afternoon, before I picked her up on Friday evening and she immediately started asking me to get back together with Dada and then admitted that Dada had told her to say that.

Now I'm suspecting that he spent the weekend not only spoiling her, but also talking to her about how sad it is that Mama left him and now we have to live in two different homes, and how sorry he is for the fights and how he'll never do it again. Maybe even explicitly telling D4 to tell Mama that as soon as I get her back (because that's exactly what she did).

I had hoped that he'd be smart enough to know that this is exactly what you are NOT supposed to do with kids involved in a divorce, but I guess not.

[livednlearned]

It's pretty common for parents with BPD traits to engage in what Dr. Childress calls pathogenic parenting. I don't think we can expect our kids parents to say or do the right thing in any consistent way. There aren't natural boundaries in place so anything goes, anything can and will be said regardless of the age of our kids or how it makes them feel.

[PeteWitsend]

...
I had hoped that he'd be smart enough to know that this is exactly what you are NOT supposed to do with kids involved in a divorce, but I guess not.

They might be smart enough, but here's the issue with them - they DO NOT CARE about anyone but themselves, even their own kids.  Their kids are pawns in the games they play, and if/when those kids grow up, and stand up to the BPD-parent and start enforcing their own boundaries, you would be surprised how quickly the BPD-parents cut contact and paint their own kids black. 

The important thing is that you provide a loving, calm, safe home for her, validate her experiences, and let her make up her own mind.  She'll learn who to trust, based on what she hears mom say and dad say, and what she observes for herself. 

You need to document all this, and to the extent possible mention it to the court, but note that the court probably won't care.  An attorney told me that parental alienation is recognized as an issue but extremely difficult to prove in court.  But if it does get excessive, you'll have the record to fall back on. 

It's hard, but it gets easier. 

My own account: BPDxw was doing this to my daughter, such that when I'd pick her up she'd cry and say I didn't take good care of her.  When I asked why she thought that, she'd say "you don't feed me healthy food."  What kid thinks like that?  I fed her the same food she'd eat at her mom's house, if not better.  This was all clearly coming from her mom.
 
My daughter would also tell me that I left because I didn't want to have a family.  I told her that absolutely wasn't true, and I stayed close by and saw her every time I could, because I loved her and was happy she was my daughter, but I just couldn't live with her mom anymore.  When she told me "I don't know who to believe now.  Mama says you were a bad father who didn't want me or a family." I told her she didn't need to believe anyone, but should make up her own mind.  And also that her mom had her own opinions about things, but they didn't need to also be hers (my daughter's). 

I did finally confront my ex about this, and to my surprise, she didn't deny it.  She didn't admit exactly that she was doing it, but said she was going to keep telling my daughter I left her.  Not that the admission has mattered yet in court, but it's something to substantiate my account. 

This happened for a couple months; my daughter would have a bad first night with me, but by Saturday she was happy and fine. 

She's now seemed to compartmentalize things better, and even admitted to me that she sees how her mom "fights with everybody" and I think learned to leave the crap that happens at her mom's house at the door, and relax and enjoy her time with me.  She's also started to say she wants to live with me all the time, and asked when I can get the judge to change the rules.  Now she's okay; I still have co-parenting issues with my ex, but my daughter is happy when she's with me, and there aren't any emotional or mental issues anymore when I pick her up.  This could all change, but I feel like I've been able to navigate it well.  You can too, and you'll be fine, but it's something you have to confront and just get through. 

[Gerda]

Well, I just had a reassuring meeting with my lawyer. Since my stbxH won't sign the temporary orders and wants 50/50 week on/week off custody schedule, we're going to have to have a temporary orders hearing, but she sounded confident that the judge will rule in my favor. She basically said that by not signing it, my stbxH is just wasting our time and money.

She even wondered aloud if his lawyer told him that, or if his lawyer is "just trying to get more money." Personally, I suspect that if his lawyer did tell him that, I can imagine stbxH not listening to his lawyer and demanding that he fight this anyway. One of the ongoing conflicts I've had with stbxH is that he never listens to experts. He thinks he knows more about medicine than our pediatrician. He thought he knew more about relationships than our marriage counselor. I can definitely see him thinking he knows more about family law than his lawyer.

But in the meantime my lawyer wants me to gather evidence that I was the primary caregiver, and gave me some examples of what that evidence could be. She requested "discovery" which is due 9/27, and then the temporary orders hearing is scheduled for 11/8. That's over two months away! I guess that gives me plenty of time to prepare.