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Author Topic: FAQ: Why is it "Borderline"? Isn't there a better name?  (Read 6853 times)
Ben

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« on: December 14, 2007, 05:53:07 PM »

Borderline Personality Disorder.  This is a question about the name of the condition that I'm surprised not to have found answered here yet.  Sorry if it has been.

What exactly are they on the borderline of?

Is it schizophrenia?  Is it depression? 

Ok, one side of the border must be 'normal' (whatever normal is!)  But what's on the other side?

Sorry if this is so obvious, but to call it Borderline Personality Disorder there must be another side of the border, I'd just like to know what's on it.

Thanks if you can help.
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2007, 06:14:07 PM »

When the term "Borderline Personality Disorder" was coined, clinicians generally believed that patients in whom it had been diagnosed were on the borderline between neurosis and psychosis.  That diagnostic phraseology has since been discarded, but the name stuck.
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wisernow
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2007, 06:19:59 PM »

Some professionals now would like to rename it "Emotional Regulation Dysfunction"... .or

something like that... .but I think the original theory is pretty good too.
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Ben

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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2007, 07:36:05 PM »

Emotional Regulation Dysfuntion is a better name because it gives some idea what the condition actually is.

Wikipedia defines neurosis as a "catch all" term for any mental imbalance that causes distress, but, unlike a psychosis or some personality disorders, does not prevent or affect rational thought.  And Psychosis is defined as is a generic psychiatric term for a mental state often described as involving a "loss of contact with reality."

All of these terms are helpful showing what BPD sufferers are actually living with.  Thankyou, Dramacat & Wisernow, for your input.  I'm still interested in other definitions of the condition.  Why was that diagnostic phraseology discarded?  Not precise enough?  Not specific enough? 

I agree the original theory is pretty good now I know what sufferers were thought to be on the borderline of.  But without that information it was too vague for me.  It's just a shame it still needs so many long words to fully describe it.

A better name for the condition would be one that's just one word, not a phrase that's likely to be shortened to initials.  But that's probably asking a bit much!
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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2007, 04:43:22 PM »

I believe the term "borderline" is well suited as it refers to the person crossing back and forth, in and out of psychosis. That explains why they can appear perfectly normal a lot of the time. True with my exSO.

But when I first heard the term, and when most people think about how the word borderline is used in our language, they think that it is almost something. What is discussed on here is anything but almost a personality disorder.
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thenextstep
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2007, 12:55:55 PM »

My T has stated that when BPDw is raging, it is a psychotic state.  I've certainly seen her psychotic.
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paul16
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2007, 04:19:25 PM »

Sounds like semantics. If acting totally irrational and disassociative is what psychosis is then mine is psychotic.

But, as Bill Clinton once said, it would depend on what your definition of "is" is.
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geroldmodel
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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2007, 05:27:16 PM »

Dissociation is not considered to be psychosis in scientific articles.

*but it certainly looks like it when you are raged at*  <:-)

So yes its a semantics thing.

and the term borderline is outdated.

Emotionaly Unstable PD as in the universal ICD-10

sounds much better
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2007, 12:07:16 AM »

Psychosis means to lose touch with reality... .and BPDs do that on a rather regular basis. They don't always take it to the level that psychosis does, but they CAN.

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thenextstep
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« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2007, 07:25:16 AM »

eggshell, I'm with you on this.  Yes, there is a difference between dissociation and psychosis, and I don't think anyone here argued otherwise.  That being said, I have definitely witnessed psychotic rages from BPDs.
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paul16
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« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2007, 08:09:09 AM »

I guess this is a hot button for me. Disassociation from reality is not psychosis? Losing toch with reality is? Can someone please explain the difference between disassociation and losing touch? Or is psychotic just a word that people on here want to avoid?

Let's discuss disorder. There are so many that show these characteristics that it could be argued that it is a type of personality (albeit not an attractive type) that exists in humanity. Who's to say it's a disorder? There are all kinds of medical conditions pit there that effect quality of life that aren't refered to as disorders. Just part of the human condition.

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« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2007, 10:04:30 AM »

Excerpt
Disassociation from reality is not psychosis? Losing toch with reality is? Can someone please explain the difference between disassociation and losing touch? Or is psychotic just a word that people on here want to avoid?

Well from a CLINICAL perspective these are two different concepts:

DISSOCIATION is a EGO DEFENSE MECHANISM.

= pychological defense mechanism in which specific, anxiety-provoking thoughts, emotions, or physical sensations are separated from the rest of the psyche. We all dissociate: Daydreaming, Staring into a campfire, meditation... .and in extremis the example of a raging BPD... .it's all dissociation.

All people with BPD dissociate. Only some people who dissociate have BPD

PSYCHOSIS is a PATHOLOGY:

= A severe mental disorder, with or without organic damage, characterized by derangement of personality and loss of contact with reality and causing deterioration of normal social functioning.

Here is a quote from a BPD describing the difference between dissociation and psychosis:

Excerpt
Lucie:

"Concerning the manifestations of dissociation, medically speaking, I will answer you that, no, fortunately it never comes to me of living such episodes.

On the other hand, at the time of very strong anxiety or very large feeling of faintnesses I have this state "of blank" which is inside me.  Approximately it results like:  to be there, without being there.  See its body to function, move, but by innate memory.  Me, at this moment I don't control anything.  Not to distinguish the real sounds and the imaginary sounds, as well as the lights and the glares. To have eye trouble and lot of small phenomena like that.  I believe that it is as much destabilizing, because on the contrary of the psychotic who does not realize, me I am conscious. In fact it is really that, for me, the borderline state.  It is as if I realized that I am about to become crazy, I have really a foot outside and a foot inside reality.  At the beginning, when it comes, I finished with the urgencies of the hospital, now, that always makes me cry, but I try to solve this alone, because I recognize a little this state.  I could not describe you the horror to be confronted with my colleagues and to be at work when that arrives.  That arrives to me approximately 1 time per month... .or a little less, that depends !"

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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2007, 11:41:19 AM »

OK. I get it. Loss of contact with reality is a good, understandable way to communicate the behavior that I experience with what I suspect is a person that has this personality type.

When they rage, cheat, lie, manipulate, (which causes deterioeration of normal social functioning) and do other things that will hurt THEM in the long run it is definately because they have lost contact with reality. So by defination, they are psychotic.
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2007, 07:05:32 PM »

  Quoting from the book "Biological Unhappiness" by Dr. Leland Heller regarding BPD:

     "Psychosis is a temporary loss of accurate reality perception.  Psychosis usually develops in borderlines from mild to moderate stress, dysphoria, fear of abandonment and emotional pain.  BPD psychosis can be brought on by drugs, especially alcohol and marijuana.  A prominent expert on the BPD wrote that only borderlines become psychotic from marijuana."  (that does not mean they will definitely become psychotic on marijuana but they can become so)

     "Psychosis is a state of reality perception--it is not a person.  You are not "a psychotic," however you can become psychotic.  Psychosis is the last "line of defense" when overwhelming stress and/or pain are present.  Borderlines are NOT psychotic--but often become so."

  Abigail
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« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2007, 07:59:51 PM »

     "Psychosis is a state of reality perception--it is not a person.  You are not "a psychotic," however you can become psychotic.

If someone suffering from BPD loses touch with reality then they become psychotic. So the original question on this thread would have to be answered that they are on the border of psychosis.
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geroldmodel
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« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2007, 02:38:28 AM »

Excerpt
So the original question on this thread would have to be answered that they are on the border of psychosis.



... .and modern psychiatry has left that idea 30 years ago... .

Excerpt
Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a serious mental illness characterized by pervasive instability in moods, interpersonal relationships, self-image, and behavior. This instability often disrupts family and work life, long-term planning, and the individual's sense of self-identity. Originally thought to be at the "borderline" of psychosis, people with BPD suffer from a disorder of emotion regulation.



Excerpt
Aapel view of Schizophrenia and Borderline Personality Disorder

Here is our feeling.

What is schizophrenia ?

A mental illness where the individual has psychotic symptom, when he "loses touch with reality"

What is a delusional Disorder ?

A mental illness where the individual has psychotic symptom with false belief. The subject is resistant to every argument: It is then impossible to think logically with him / her, even confronted with tangible proofs, he or she continue to firmly maintain it.

Are BPD, schizophrenia and delusional disorder 3 entities ?

Obviously yes

Do some BPD people have psychotics symptom ?

It is possible but not necessary.  In case of BPD it is probably better to speak about dissociation and not about "real" psychotic symptom. The Dsm criteria of BPD talk about "severe dissociative symptoms" and not about psychotic symptom.



Excerpt
An empirical study of psychosis in borderline personality disorder

HG Pope Jr, JM Jonas, JI Hudson, BM Cohen and M Tohen


To assess the nature and prevalence of psychotic symptoms in borderline personality disorder, the authors reviewed the cases of 33 patients meeting DSM-III criteria for borderline personality disorder, using both "narrow" and "broad" definitions of psychosis. Only eight patients displayed psychotic symptoms meeting the "narrow" DSM-III definition; in all of these cases, the symptoms appeared to be attributable to either severe drug abuse or major affective disorder, present simultaneously with borderline personality disorder. The remaining patients displayed only "broadly defined" psychotic symptoms or symptoms that appeared to be under voluntary control. These findings weigh AGAINST the assumption that borderline personality disorder lies "on the border" of classical psychotic disorders.



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geroldmodel
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« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2007, 05:00:49 AM »

Excerpt
This is hellishly complicated.

I agree.

Samuell, you describe BPDs as having a state of "normal" behaviour & a state of "extreme behaviour".

These behaviour states are very obvious when you are living with a BPD and I very much agree that the term "borderline" sticks from this view... .

But over the years I came to learn that EXTERNAL behaviour is only the tip of the iceberg of the CONSTANT INTERNAL turmoil... .

and "normal" behaviour does not equal "normal" emotions... .

From this point of view BPD cannot be seen as "borderline" between two states, but as a permanent unstable state.



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« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2007, 05:12:15 AM »

geroldmodel, you are probably right about the internal turmoil. I try to move on from wondering what went on in her head - trying to understand that was pointless. Sometimes she even knew her thinking was twisted but had to act on it anyway.

You are right to say that they are permanently unstable. But in terms of what affects the outside world and nons in particular is the behaviour and language. That is what is on the borderline - acting and talking crazy then acting and talking sane then back to crazy again.

Once upon a time I wanted so badly to see what went on in her head so that I could try to help. I genuinely believe I got a glipse of it just once - a flash in her eyes and she said somthing like "you can see me." I will never forget it and for that brief moment I was there. It was hell and I never want to see it again.

Sam
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geroldmodel
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« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2008, 06:34:08 AM »

Excerpt
There is a debate as to whether BPD should be renamed. The term "borderline" started in clinical use in the 1930s, originating in the idea (now out of favor) of some patients being on the "borderline" between neurosis and psychosis. BPD only became an official Axis II (personality) diagnosis in 1980 with the publication of DSM-III.[35]

From Wikipedia on BPD
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Apricot6

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« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2016, 07:07:28 AM »

Thanks for the explanation. It's interesting that this particular PD got that tag, as surely all PDs are on the border of psychosis and neurosis? So what I mean is Narcissistic and Anti-Social types are also borderline? Sorry for questions, I am brand new to this and trying to learn about it to make sense in my head of what I've been through.
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« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2016, 07:36:06 AM »

Thanks for the explanation. It's interesting that this particular PD got that tag, as surely all PDs are on the border of psychosis and neurosis? So what I mean is Narcissistic and Anti-Social types are also borderline? Sorry for questions, I am brand new to this and trying to learn about it to make sense in my head of what I've been through.

Borderline was the "junk pile" of symptoms that did not fit into diagnostic criteria of the time.  Narcissists (NPD) and Antisocial (ASPD) types typically do not have psychosis. Psychosis can be  hallucinations, delusions, mania, and catatonic symptoms. Disorders such as schizophrenia, dissociative disorders, and Bipolar type I.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Disorders of Mental Disorders (DSM-V) categorizes personality disorders is into three clusters.  Diagnostic criteria for Cluster A (odd-eccentric) personality disorders share some psychotic features.  BPD falls under Cluster B disorders along with NPD and ASPD.  All personality disorders have a neurotic features.

Although there is some debate amongst clinicians with the classification or what constitutes  a personality disorder, as it is hard to pigeonhole a plethora of traits into one sole category. For this reason, there is a broad spectrum of personality disordered behavior. The intensity or maladaptive behavior can range from highly to mildly impaired. Also, many of the traits can overlap.  For example, someone diagnosed with BPD can exhibit NPD traits as well.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions.  Smiling (click to insert in post)  If people did not ask questions or seek to find an answer then no one would learn anything.

Is there anything specific that you are unsure about?

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« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2016, 07:42:10 AM »

Thanks EaglesJuju. There is nothing specific I am unsure about. I am coming out of a fog and am unsure about everything! It's good to get a handle on what the terms mean. Borderline with narcissistic traits fits the person I am detaching from.
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2016, 10:07:26 PM »

I really really hate that this is the best the PhDs have come up with.

Our lives are already hard enough to deal with our BPD family... .could they come up with another name for it?  Especially if we are to have any hope of talking with them about it. 

I don't like the word "Borderline" at all.   It already sounds too close to Bipolar Personality Disorder.

Maybe we can come up with a better name.  Please list your ideas below if you are game.

Mine is:  Super Sensitive Person  -  SSP  Smiling (click to insert in post)

"honey, you seem to fall in the spectrum of what they call a "super sensitive person"... .   maybe that wouldn't go over so well after all... . 
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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2016, 11:32:22 PM »

There's been movement for a few years to rename it Emotional Regulation Disorder (ERD). That sounds similar to SSP. What do you think? Is it more specific to the most common observable behavior?
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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2016, 07:20:56 AM »

I thought Borderline was a fairly old clinical term used to describe a group of patients that didn't quite fit into neurotic or psychotic illness categories because they possessed quality of both.  They were borderline.  In my experience I thought that was pretty accurate, especially in regards to the psychotic.  Emotional regulation plays a big part, but it does get at the deeper warpness.
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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2016, 07:29:59 AM »

I do like Emotional Regulation Disorder to a certain degree... .but in general just don't like the stigma attached to ":)isorder".

I found a couple of threads elsewhere talking about this.
https://www.reddit.com/r/BPD/comments/268ypj/what_would_you_rename_BPD_as/
www.borderlinepersonalitytreatment.com/BPD-name-change.html
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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2016, 07:59:09 AM »

Some in the therapeutic community have pushed complex PTSD as an alternative where trauma might be involved to reduce the stigma, but the stigma is not really attached to the dx.  It is attached to the behaviors.  Change the name might only give small respite.  For many people a substance abuser and a bum/junkie are pretty much the same.
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« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2016, 10:20:53 PM »

I listen to a podcast about mindfulness and she calls a pwBPD a highly sensitive person. I was able to get my husband to listen to it because he acknowledges he is overly emotional and sensitive. But he would never accept BPD.
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