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Author Topic: Knowledge is scarey  (Read 2301 times)
Skippy
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« on: November 28, 2005, 05:31:36 PM »

Like many of you here, I've read books (5), posted on this site for weeks, talked with therapists (2)... .I think I understand her(xBPDgf) reality now... .

In some ways, I feel I know her reality more than my own now. This is freightening.

I could probably recreate "her" in someone else by using her manipulation tactics, or consume some lovestruck women to soothe my needs right now without any regard for her outcome... .I know the words, I know  the tactics... .and what worse, I know they work. Each of us on this site is proof of that.

Love was a simple concept to me before... .

I didn't want this xBPDgf experience.

But just as much, I don't want this knowledge.   I think her boys are learning it too... .at least one of them.

I don't want to be asking myself the rest of my life if I'm doing it to someone else... .questioning everytime I say I love you... .I don't want to be asking myself if someone is doing it to me.

I remember a line in a Don Henley song... .

"everything I thought I knew, I have to learn again"
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goochiegirl
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« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2005, 05:37:22 PM »

Skip, I don't think we're the kind of people who ever COULD do that to anyone else.  I just couldn't be cruel or intentionally hurt someone, particularly someone I care about who I know loves me. 

And it seems to me that the BPDs seek out people like us - soft-hearted, giving, compassionate types - because they KNOW we are the least likely to hurt them.  Not that it really matters - anything we do ends up 'hurting' them anyway.

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Sapphire
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2005, 06:01:21 PM »

I agree with you, Skip, and can relate to what you're saying... .

Knowing what I do now, and knowing why the ex did the things he did to me, makes me sick to my stomach, It is a horrible feeling, and I wish I never would have had the experience... .

I still sometimes doubt myself, even though I now know the "truth". Before this experience, I never had any doubts about ANYTHING: now I find myself questioning my own reality. Logically, I think I know I'm the rational one, and my ex is the sick one. But still, I sometimes wonder... .

I'm scared to even try dating again, b/c I think "what if" I end up hurting someone b/c the ex f***ed with my head so badly? What if someone ends up loving me, but I can't feel the same? I don't ever want to hurt anyone that badly; I know what it's like. Or what if I start to care, and they don't? ? I don't want to get hurt again, either. I know I could never "use" or "manipulate" someone else; I wouldn't even know HOW, even though I've had a good teacher... ;==. I don't worry about knowing the "tricks", b/c I know I could never use them. But I do worry about hurting someone, or being hurt. I could never go through that kind of hurt again, and I certainly wouldn't want to inflict that kind of pain on someone either.

This whole experience sucks, in more ways than one... .:'(

Like you quoted, "Everything you thought you knew, you have to learn again... ."

I hate my ex for sharing his "horrors" with me. I was a happy & content person till he came along... .

~SD~
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goochiegirl
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2005, 06:10:17 PM »

SD,

I worry too.  I came into this relationship with TOTAL integrity. That's the only way I knew how.  I was honest, spoke my truth about how I was feeling, knew that if I had feelings that were independent of how another acted, that I was responsible for addressing it within myself.  Gave people the benefit of the doubt, concerned myself with my own actions and responses. 

Now I wonder: the same things as you.  Will I be terrified that the other person will turn out to be malicious?  Will I keep up a wall indefinitely?  Will I lash out from a deja vu incident?  Will I misinterpret what he does in innocence, to be something manipulative? Will I become negative and suspicious?  God, I hope not. It's not who I am.  I'm positive and optimistic by nature, believing the best about people, seeing that there is good in everyone.  Yes, this too has been shattered so much.  I now know that I can't assume that everyone is like that. It used to be the only frame of reference I had.  And now I have experienced, so often even from reading this forum - the victory of evil over good. IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO WORK THAT WAY!  How did that happen?

I think I'll make that another topic.
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Sapphire
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2005, 06:11:38 PM »

?  

And it seems to me that the BPDs seek out people like us - soft-hearted, giving, compassionate types - because they KNOW we are the least likely to hurt them.?  Not that it really matters - anything we do ends up 'hurting' them anyway.

This is so very true, especially the part about how we end up "hurting" THEM anyways... .

It's all just so, so sad... .:'(

~SD~
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garyw
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2005, 06:19:26 PM »

Excerpt
Now I wonder: the same things as you.  Will I be terrified that the other person will turn out to be malicious?  Will I keep up a wall indefinitely?  Will I lash out from a deja vu incident?  Will I misinterpret what he does in innocence, to be something manipulative? Will I become negative and suspicious?  God, I hope not. It's not who I am.

I honestly believe we won't... .I really do.

IF... .those of us who do need some therapy get it.

That we don't have expectations or think that the same rules that we want to apply to our bps or xpbs don't apply to us as well... .That left untreated history is bound to repeat itself.

I'm not saying we all need therapy but a large part I believe must.

I know my entire life I would go for a couple sessions after a brake up and just when  I would feel better I would quit.

I was using therapy as an asprin to cure a condition. :P

The last time I went I told her to not let me outta here till I'm done reguardless of where it leads... .then kick me outta here

Well so far anyway... .it's worked.

I haven't tested it as of yet but I know exactly what I don't want and won't accept under any conditions.
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Sapphire
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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2005, 06:23:20 PM »

?  

Now I wonder: the same things as you.?  Will I be terrified that the other person will turn out to be malicious?  Will I keep up a wall indefinitely?  Will I lash out from a deja vu incident?  Will I misinterpret what he does in innocence, to be something manipulative? Will I become negative and suspicious?  God, I hope not. It's not who I am.?  I'm positive and optimistic by nature, believing the best about people, seeing that there is good in everyone.?  Yes, this too has been shattered so much.?  I now know that I can't assume that everyone is like that. It used to be the only frame of reference I had.?  And now I have experienced, so often even from reading this forum - the victory of evil over good. IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO WORK THAT WAY?  How did that happen?

YES, YES, YES!

Goochiegirl, you said exactly what I wanted to say, but am too brain-dead to put into words today (plus I've got a headache to boot!).

What scares me most of all is I don't want to end up like HIM b/c of all the crap he put me through... .

THAT'S THE LAST THING I WANT TO BE!

~SD~
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justmel
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2005, 06:53:30 PM »

(Disclaimer statement before reading ... .Please do not throw any wadded up paper balls or staplers my way ... .Thank you ... .   Love y'all)

Knowledge ... .Scary?

Hmmm ... .Guess I'll be the voice of dissention ... .

Mmmmmmnnnope ... .Knowledge has empowered me ... .

Don't get me wrong - At first, I was devastated ... .I couldn't breathe ... .I couldn't think ... .I couldn't ... .I couldn't fathom ... .I couldn't ... .I couldn't ... .I couldn't ... .

But now ... .

The knowledge has given me some answers to those floating, demanding questions ... .You know the ones - The questions you recite over and over again in your mind ... .expecting that THIS time you'll get an answer ... .Nope - Not til ya' get the knowledge ... .And even then - Sometimes the answer doesn't satisfy the pain ... .

So - More importantly -

The knowledge has allowed me to look at MMMEEeeeeeeee ... .(I say, pounding my chest with the palm of my hand) ... .Me ... .

What about ME allowed this toxic relationship - and all the others - into my life ... .?

I agree with the words of the sages - THERAPY, plus writing and reading and connecting and delighting in those small things that bring you pleasure ... .Invite those things into your life and welcome them with open arms ... .

Hand is raised in confession:

In finding some knowledge I needed to know about me, I was able to understand the knowledge I learned about him ... .

Scary?  Only if you let it be ... .

Just wanna say - Cause I haven't in a mighty long time - Y'all are some wonderful folks ... .And I love y'all ... .

Melanie

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goochiegirl
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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2005, 07:28:33 PM »

In finding some knowledge I needed to know about me, I was able to understand the knowledge I learned about him ... .

Hmm... Mel, can you explain this more?  How did finding knowledge of yourself help you to understand about him?  Because I find myself doing the opposite: having to try to understand him by trying to put myself in his place, from his perspective - and it's so skewed that I have a hard time understanding.  It's like, I and everyone I had encountered always understood, KNEW, that 2 + 2 = 4.  And I have to try to figure out somehow, how it is that in his world, 2+2 = 5.  It doesn't make SENSE.  If you experiment with two apples and two more apples, you count them and still end up with four.  Nope, not to him. He sees five.

As for the therapy - I have just started.  Have my third appt in 2 days.  And I agree.  I have to figure out just why I tolerated it for so long.  Now the family of origin issues are coming up - painful ones.  :::sigh:::
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lightnin

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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2005, 07:39:03 PM »

I remember a line in a Don Henley song... .

"everything I thought I knew, I have to learn again"

---------------------

i remember when i had a nervous breakdown and went to the nuthouse in 1994, after the girl i loved (3.5 yrs) started drinking and doing dope.?  she knew i couldnt be with her because i was sober (we were both in aa).

anyway, they used music for therapy.?  the first song they played was bob seger "Against the Wind".?  one line in that song caused me to burst into tears -

"I wish i didn't know now what i didn't know then."

i kinda feel that way about BPD.

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LAnn
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2005, 07:42:52 PM »

Maybe, Skip, it's like having a case of the BP "fleas"?   Your boundaries may be blurred and it feels scarey to know the power you could have to hurt someone like she did you.  But just because you know so much about her behavior, it doesn't mean you are her or will act like her.  You are you.  And with this knowledge you have new insight, and you always have choice in how you love others and yourself.

Sometimes it hits me that a lot of us here have lost our innocence in a larger way  (than one experiences in leaving childhood to adulthood for instance.)  I feel that about myself at least.  And I think my eyes are open as never before to the realities of the world.  And I see it as a positive thing now, to have this larger awareness... .  although in the beginning I don't think I wanted to see it.  I felt sort of "dirty" by association with my exbf's behavior.   Fleas.    I didn't want it to have happened.  I wanted to be innocent again by default.* I remember thinking a number of times, "Maybe I'm 'growing up' to things I didn't see about life."   Now, I think I can choose to act rightly by conscious intent greater than I had previously. 

I hope you are doing well, Skip.

Wishing you the very best. 

*p.s.   lightnin,   That line  you posted from the song, "Against the Wind", is what I felt for some time.      "I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then."

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Skippy
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2005, 08:23:22 PM »

Sometimes it hits me that a lot of us here have lost our innocence

I remember telling her one time that I wished I was 5 again, unconditionally loved.

I told her in so many ways what it would take to manipulate me.  It never occurred to me, not for one millisecond that ... .       I trusted her without reserve.

Now I don't even trust myself.

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Sapphire
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2005, 08:44:09 PM »

Justml,

You are right about having to learn about "Me", and why we allowed ourselves to take the abuse for as long as we did. I recognize my own insanity in that disasterous relationship, and it won't happen again. What angers me most of all (beside the fact that my ex moved me away from my home & family for his own selfish needs and then left me here) is that he "saw" my weaknesses too, and used them against me. It makes me feel so violated, and I resent him for abusing me that way, b/c I knew his vulnerabilities too, but didn't use them against HIM. I tried to help him through his, not "blackmail" him... .

Like everyone else, I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then. It's one lesson I could have lived without... .;==

But then again, maybe I had to learn it, in order to become a "stronger" person.

I just hope the person I used to be doesn't get buried underneath a layer of self-gratification & mistrust & control & manipulation & anger & bitterness & fear. I don't want those BPD fleas to infest me. I see what happens to people who do.

I want my "innocence" back too... .

~SD~
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justmel
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2005, 09:57:51 PM »

Hey Gooch ... .and all  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Hmmm ... .Sorry I wasn't able to make myself clear earlier ... .I'll take another stab at it ... .And please understand - This is only my point of view because of my set of circumstances ... .

Learning more about myself helped me understand WHY I was a magnet to him ... .WHY I accepted and tolerated the insanity ... .(I once posted about monkeys, grapefruits, and boxes ... .I'll see if I can find it ... .  )

I tolerated it because it was a relationship oozing with dysfunction - - something I could relate to ... .(notice I said "relationship" ... .not just him ... .not just me ... .it was an "us" ... .I know how to function in dysfunction - - years of practice and honing the fine skills it takes to survive in chaos ... .It's HEALTHY I have/had a problem with ... .

NOT TO WORRY!  I'm workin' on it ... .  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Ooo  Ooo  Ooo!  Found the grapefruit thing ... .Here it is ... .

From January of this year ... .

I held on to something that wasn't right for me - something that was torturous and paralyzing - because I thought it was better than nothing ... .Isn't that absurd?

Ya' know how they catch monkeys in the wild? 

With a box and a grapefruit ... .

The monkey sees the box with the grapefruit in it and reaches his hand (or her hand, as the case may be) through a small hole to grab it.  Then, he/she is unable to pull his/her hand AND the grapefruit out of the box because the hole is too small.  Still, once he/she has the grapefruit, the monkey won't let go - Thus, monkey trapped!

Holding on to a toxic man because I thought he was better than nothing is just like the monkey clutching the grapefruit ... .a trap I created for myself ... .Walking away hurts like hell ... .Being walked away from - can darn near kill ya' ... .

I thank God every day for giving me the strength to gnaw off my hand to let go of the grapefruit ... .

Hope that was better ... .Just know - I always "swing" ... .Just don't always make contact with the ball ... .And sometimes - I am the lost ball in the tall weeds ... .<sigh> ... .  :Smiling (click to insert in post)

Be well, one and all ... .

Melanie
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LAnn
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2005, 10:16:23 PM »

Skip,

You say that you don't trust yourself?   In what way?

Do you mean because you confided in her your vulnerabilites and it never occurred to you that she would use them against you?  Do you mean that you don't trust yourself to confide in someone else again?

Even if you don't feel able to trust in "yourself"  give yourself time, Skip.  Trust that the body and mind will take you through the healing process.   One of the marvels to me  is that sometimes even while I thought things would never change, the change was happening.   Time truly is a faithful healer.  The old aphorism is true.   Give yourself lots of rest too.  And be around healthy friends. 


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toycj

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« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2006, 03:30:19 PM »

Knowledge of myself was well in hand or at least that's what I thought. Knowledge of the mental illness was well in hand - or enough to recognize what was going on with her. Didn't know the BPD - recognized the dissociative behaviour (no concept of time, not remembering anything, etc.). Knowledge of the person I was getting involved with was thought to be had - we were friends for years and had even been roommates and some sort of emotional bonding had taken place. As best of friends as any two people probably could have been... .I also had knowledge of what a good relationship looks like and feels like.

   Then life circumstances (mostly a very sad economy where we lived) took us both through many hoops - seperately and together. Things that would send any sane individual into a frenzy (unemployment, underemployment, homelessness... .) I went my own way - seeking to re-claim some of my dignity and she went hers - I found out that there was no self searching going on there - just drinking and promiscuity. I warned her as any good friend would do that she was playing a dangerous game. She sort of heeded my warning - but not enough to prevent what is ultimately the reason why I am still in this picture and not being her friend from the outside. There is a beautiful little girl, a gift (sometimes now I wonder if it was the greatest manipulation that has ever snuck by me).

    Did I see the flags? Well, yes, but I thought they were just pregnancy and it would go away. The  "come here-go away," then it was my friends weren't ok, and then it was her friends and then... .Well, we know the story... .

    Today, I have more knowledge than I ever thought I would have or need. Mostly from up close and personal experience and a great deal having been acquired in my quest for SELF-help. That's how I came to be on this forum.

   I have never been one to actively seek out relationships - I prefer to spend my time becoming and being the best person I can be. And at this point, it isn't even so much about me as it is the kid. I committed to the kid - I committed to my suspected BPD but not in the same way and I will never try to be that for her again. I spent years trying and I'm done with that. It is about the kid.

As for being squirrely about future relationships... .I was squirrely anyway because this isn't the first time I've been too involved with a seriously disordered person. I hope to God that it is the last time, that's why I would rather spend the time becoming less of a target for them and more desirable to healthier people.

I think to some extent, we are right to be on our guard. After all, we've already been there, why do it again? Why not take what we know with us?

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brucey
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« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2006, 09:48:29 PM »

The knowledge I now have about personality disorders has helped me, I believe, to let go of the feelings I had for my ex.  Though, it didn't help very much.

The knowledge I now have about people, particularly the 2% or so of disordered people, has made me sad.  It has destroyed my concept of people.  For example, I was always firmly opposed to capital punishment, and now I find that I am losing some of that sympathy for people.  I was always very confident, nearly arrogant, about myself, and now I feel like just another sardine in the can.

So, knowledge has changed me, both for the better and for the worse.  However, the effect is small.  For the most part, I am still the same, just having some trouble getting completely healed.  But I'll get there.
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