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Author Topic: The "friendship" question?  (Read 13065 times)
artist27
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« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2007, 07:21:28 AM »

I feel as though there are two realities, the bp-reality and the non-reality.  It’s like I feel I am not together with her, but she feels we are together as soon as we communicate.  Where does the BP cycle start?  Is it as soon as I acknowledge her presence?  How do you make sense of the chaos?  Even in chaos there are patterns.  Am I stuck in fuzzy logic?
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Bailey
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« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2007, 07:26:58 AM »

artist,

I had NC for 3 weeks, and then relented for 3 days of communication because my borderline ex wanted to try to have a healing friendship.  But -- over the course of those 3 days we went from healing friends to practically becoming lovers again (even though we didn't see each other once during those 3 days), and it took much support (mostly from people on line here!) to just get out.  Again.  And now, of course, he's angry.

Yeah, I definitely hear you -- he felt as if we were back together as soon as we communicated again. It was hidden under a bunch of words at first, but then it slowly came back into view.

marymac
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« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2007, 01:24:23 PM »

I don't think you can be friends.

Since they don't understand boundaries this is a very dangerous path to try to take.

marymac-I had a similar get away and I know what you mean about feeling drugged.
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« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2007, 02:08:08 PM »

HGG,

Really?  Did you lie there, totally soaking in the silence, and then at one point think that maybe you were dying or something because you were that relaxed?

It was memorable, deep.

Maybe this is how most people feel most of the time because they don't have to keep their guard up all the time?
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« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2007, 02:15:12 PM »

Yes. I felt so relaxed that I felt like I was on another plane. I was in this seaside little cottage that had no tv, phone service or cell phone service because it was blocked by a mountain.

There was a big window overlooking the ocean.

I just rested and my muscles were like jelly.

I too wonder if this is what day to day life is for happy people.
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Bailey
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« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2007, 02:20:51 PM »

Yeah! This house overlooked a lake, no TV, no internet!

We can't ask all the happy people if that's what life is like for them because they don't know! If it's YES then it's always been that way for them so they just wouldn't know it!
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artist27
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« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2007, 01:22:00 AM »

So this is what it is like to have no contact.  In some ways it was easier to see her at work.  Now I have this anxiety that she will call or text me.  This is a new experience for me.  I guess being friends was just an easier way to let go of her.  I sit here and wonder what she feels right now.  It is so hard to imagine her with no feelings, because she portrayed them so well when she was sad.

I know she was in pain, people at work would tell me that she looked as though she had been crying on more then one occasion.  When we first stop talking she will always re-engagement her exbf and parade him in front of me for a day or so in an attempt to hurt me.  I think that it was her way of trying to keep me in line i.e. “come crawling back or I’ll go back with him.”  This has never worked on me and she always blows him off within a short time and tries to come back to me.  It’s like a bluff.  After she blows off her ex she goes into this “depressed state”.  She barely talks to anyone and she does things to try to get my attention.  She acts happy when she thinks I am sad, but if I look fine she will almost immediately get quiet and go back to the depressed state; almost as though she is disappointed that I am happy without her.

This is un-chartered territory for me.  When I saw her at work it was a constant reminder of how warped she was, because her actions were right there in front of me.  I could listen to her distorted thinking.  I could see the angry stares.  Now I find myself only remembering the good things and I have to remind myself that the goal is to not continue with her.  I have made a decision in my mind not to pursue a relationship with her.  I can see down the road and I know the pain that waits if I go back. 

The good times were sometimes the hardest to deal with because that is when hope would surface; the hope that she could be a normal person.  But the BPD always comes back.  And new worry comes to me, what if I stay friends with her and then I start seeing someone else?  What would her reaction be?  I stated before that I feel that I have only seen a small part of how distorted she can be, it was always the worst when she saw me talking to a girl she did not like or felt was a threat.  Reading the experiences here helps because it is a reminder of how bad a BPD can get.  I hope I don’t get that far…I think I am the only one that can stop it from happening.

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Bailey
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« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2007, 03:31:11 PM »

artist,

A few days ago, my ex bg and I were talking about how we might be able to be friends.  We both wondered aloud what would happen if one of us started dating, stuff like that.  It seemed reasonable, mature...

Anyway, I was away overnight (last night) visiting my daughter who doesn't have internet hooked up yet, so I put on an auto-responder that didn't mention my daughter, only that I'd be away from my computer over night.  So ---- get this ------ he called me super-super-super hurt that I would throw it in his face that I was sleeping overnight at a man's house.

What I learned?  We won't be able to be friends.  He just took that info and blew it up into the next drama.

Problem is, in a break up, the one who is dumped is going to be in pain. (We are too, of course) But borderlines think it is our job to relieve them of their pain.  But once we break up each person is on their own, and our job is only this -- to take care of ourselves.

Hey, believe me, this is hard for me to learn, but telling it to you helps reinforce it in me!

marymac
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« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2007, 03:31:39 PM »

Oops, I wrote ex bg -- I meant "ex bf"!
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« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2007, 10:16:43 PM »

marymac,

I'm learning that also, when I tell someone else what I already know to be true it does reinforce it in me.  Isn't that odd. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2007, 02:48:12 PM »

I think that I am starting to get the concept of “oz”.  This little bit of nc has been great.  I go to work and I am not concerned with entering the building.  I don’t have to work with a different persona.  I am who I am.   It feels so good just to be me.  I have my lapses and I want to have the hope that she is capable of normalcy.  That is the only draw back, when I don’t get the chance to see the disturbed, twelve year old behavior, I tend to focus on the good.  You never know how much you walked on eggshells until the eggshells are gone.  Secure footing is peace.   The only thing that remains are the ghosts of past fears and the mirages of happiness.
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« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2007, 02:57:15 PM »

What a great thread artist. Your issue is one many face or will face in the future. I like that you worked it out in the end. It proves how the power of a supportive atmosphere can really help.

I am happy you are experiencing peace. Imagine that the rest of your life can feel this good.
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« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2007, 10:50:06 AM »

artist,

A few days ago, my ex bg and I were talking about how we might be able to be friends.  We both wondered aloud what would happen if one of us started dating, stuff like that.  It seemed reasonable, mature...

marymac,

This is where my exbf and I are at right now... we talk about parting ways, going on with life without each other, etc.  He currently sleeps in another bedroom and is moving out at the end of the month.  He too seems to be going along with the break-up thing and remaining friends, but I'm also wondering if this is just lip service?  I'm not sure if he is just quietly going to exit the building, or if he is building up to something else?  For now, we are FRIENDS, which is astonishing to me - but I really don't know his motives - do we ever know what a BPD is up to  ?

Just thought I would share, who knows whats gonna happen  :Smiling (click to insert in post)

~ Cali

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Bailey
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« Reply #43 on: May 07, 2007, 07:14:10 PM »

Hey Caligirl,

I think these guys have all the best intentions, I really do.  But they can't resist messing things up, confusing the issues, getting us to chase our tails.  You are fortunate that all is quiet right now, just let it be and be prepared for when it isn't so quiet any more.  My ex bf remained fairly quiet until he was out the door...I think...I don't know -- the past few months are becoming a blur of fights and make-ups, all in the name of friendship.

But, hey, for you - so far so good, and that's fantastic!

keep posting, let us know how it goes!

marymac
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« Reply #44 on: May 07, 2007, 11:39:27 PM »

MC and CG,

Let me know how it goes.  So far with me it seems all that is needed to keep you in the cycle is a little bit of contact.  I wonder if you all will experience the same thing.  The relationship is already conditioned; a stage set to one act in a play that we play over and over.  We each know our place and for us the role changes, but to the BPex the act stays the same and the same act continues.  I think for them the goal is to have someone there, and even though the contact is different, we are still there, and it seems so far that that is all that is needed to maintain a relationship for them.

I’ve been thinking about it and for us, at least for the most part, we always saw a continuous relationship.  For them, or at least my ex, we have been good and bad; the relationship has been on and off.  To them it is just another off period.  For us it is a major decision to move on and change the nature of the relationship. 

I have thought a lot about the triggers for me ex’s rages.  And the one element that seems to jump out, for the major rages when she would stop talking to me, are the times when she would see me talking to a girl I knew she felt was a threat.  I did not matter if it was work related or just a friendly conversation.  I feel she thought it was the beginning of me abandoning her, so she did it first.  Before she would stop talking to me the verbal abuse would start.  Everything I said and did was bad.  She would twist my words and actions around. There was no way to explain anything.  All my intentions were evil. 

I think that this was her way of building up to the break up.  I think that she really intends to stop talking to me during these periods, but she can’t do it, so she tries to re-engagement, and in the past I complied, and the act continued.  I wish that I could go into more detail about the things she would do.  Some of them are just so childish but at the same time scary.  I just don’t want to say too many things that would give away who I am.  God knows that if she found out about this place she would have a new way to torture me.

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« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2007, 02:35:18 AM »

I have to call her.  I have a choice not to call, but to maintain civility at work I need to make one call.  I hope she does not answer.  All I need to do is communicate a few words, it is not necessary to have a conversation.  I wish I could give more detail about why I have to, but I can’t.  I have known that I have to make this call for a little while and the stress of it is familiar.  For those of you with children and those of you that have to maintain contact for an extended period, I admire your courage.  Part of it is obligation and guilt; I am a good person so I have to do it. 

It is a reminder of how I always had to give and she did not.  I always had to be the stronger person and look past the things she said and did because I knew how she really felt.  The words or actions were between us and I could take them and deflect them because I understood the pain and fear that generated them.  I left the relationship because I knew that I could not take those little attacks for a lifetime, it was to draining.  I’m strong but I’m not that strong.  I’m glad I can write this here, because although I have great, strong friends, they really don’t know or understand this thing we call BPD.  All they can do is shake there heads at the things I tell them that she does.  Once more unto the FOG, I hope that it is a short journey.

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« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2007, 04:46:00 AM »

Hi artist27,

Friendships are relationships too - and for that matter they are something that I cherish very much.

Those suffering from BPD are unable to regulate emotions, which means that they are unable to sustain a normal relationship of any kind - whether it be romantic, family or a friendship. IMHO.

Regards,

RT.
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artist27
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« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2007, 06:07:23 AM »

RTTCB,

I know, I had to leave the relationship and I had to accept that that would not work because of the BPD.  Now I think I have to follow the same process with the friendship.  Maybe something will happen to make permanent nc possible.  I still miss her just not enough to go back to her.  I really do miss her.  I can’t say that I was completely innocent; I did some insensitive things as well, but her reactions to them were so extreme.  I never tried to hurt her on purpose they way she would try to hurt me.

Sometimes I think this is great we have developed a label that predicts and describes the actions, of what would have, in the past, simply described a bad person.  I am not unsympathetic to those with mental illness and I understand that there may be neurological reasons for why BP’s do what they do.  I still love my ex, but her disorder only explains why she does the things that she does, it does not excuse her actions.  I am ambivalent.  I saw all this coming in the begining and I let it happen anyway.  I always have to give people a chance.
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« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2007, 06:11:44 AM »

Hi Artist27,

I too miss my friend, and in the initial stages when she was first diagnosed I was glad there was a reason for the behaviours too. In almost all cases I was able to pinpoint reasons for the way she treated me.

However, this is all well and good if the person realises that their behaviour is unacceptable, and they accept that they have BPD. The next step must be to seek therapy to correct or at least manage the behaviours. If this does not happen the only option in my opinion is to remove yourself, as otherwise you are allowing yourself to be subjected to unacceptable treatment for some reason (Co-dependency?).

And additionally as some other wise soul mentioned here – you are in fact ENABLING the illness, as you are letting this person continue to behave in an unacceptable manner.

I found it incredibly hard to walk away from my friend – hell after 4 months I still do – some of this was due to the fact that she’s incredibly low functioning, and thus a danger to herself. But at the end of the day I cannot fix her – nobody can even attempt to unravel the mess until she reaches out and asks for it – and then it must be a professional who is skilled at doing so. 

Indeed I am all for giving people a chance – it’s just that when it got to the point that the “chance giving” had got into double figures it was time to wake up and realise that I had gone from the sublime to the ridiculous.

But I stress again that in my opinion I do not believe those with untreated BPD can sustain any kind of normal give and take relationship - romantic, friendship or family.

RT

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Bailey
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« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2007, 06:54:50 AM »

artist,

Did you make the call yet?  How did it go?

marymac
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artist27
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« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2007, 09:35:18 AM »

Marymac,

I did make the call and it was beautiful, because I did not have to talk to her, just left the required message.  I think I actually jumped for joy afterwards!  I did my job as an employee and friend and I don’t have to talk to or see her for a little while.  Of course I will probably have to see her when she returns to work, and if she calls me I will still take her calls, unless they become abusive or excessive.  I don’t think that will happen though.

I am getting a lot of time to think during this period.  Talking to my co-workers really helps.  Honestly it helps more than when I talk to my really close friends, just because they know the situation and they see the way that she acts.  My close friends have never met her.  This may seem odd, but they only know a little about her, I really don’t talk about her because it is sometimes so hard to explain the things that she does. 

But, as I have stated before, my co-workers really help me stay in touch with reality at times because they point out behaviors that I might not immediately notice as bizarre.  For example the dirty looks that she gave to others; I did not notice this until some of my friends at work brought it to my attention.  Of course I did notice when she started saying insulting things loudly, within the hearing range of a female co-worker, to try to provoke her into a confrontation, all because I was “talking to her to much”.

More and more I am realizing the little things that she did to control me.  Each day arms me with new information.  I hope that by the time she returns I will be more effective in dealing with her.  There really is a fog and I may have said this before…I don’t think I am completely out of it yet, but I think I have at least turned on the fog lights.

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« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2007, 02:17:44 PM »

In my honest opinion, when a person with BPD states that they want to be friends with you, is really just another way for them to say, "I would like to find more ways in which I can manipulate you since the old ones don't work anymore." Why in hell would I want to subject myself to the madness? I have more to post, but have to go back to work.

Later,

blowinndawind, but pleasantly so...
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« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2007, 02:45:33 PM »

Well, I just posted and here are my thoughts on friendship.

DO NOT attempt to be friends untill you are fully stable, strong and completely OVER the thought of a relationship with that person. 

If not, the results can be ugly. 
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Bailey
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« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2007, 02:34:26 AM »

Yeah, my ex Dannyboy, kept wanting to be friends, and it just got ugly every time I gave it a try.  Even now, here I am awake at 3 a.m. because he text messaged me (a message of love, of course) at 2 a.m.  That darn little beeping just woke me wide awake and now I can't get back to sleep.   I'll have to get a new cell, cuz the one I have can't block specific numbers.   

artist, sounds like you are getting clearer and clearer in your head...hoo boy good luck!  Why do you think you'll take her calls if she does call?

marymac
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artist27
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« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2007, 11:33:57 AM »

I agree with you all that being friends is just another way of trying to manipulate the situation to the bp’s advantage.  I have noticed this as time goes on; the contact is all that is needed to try to start the cycle again.  And I also agree that you do have to be completely over the thought of the relationship working for any type of friendship to work.  My ex can pick up on the slightest bit of weakness to try to get a response.  So if there is a hope for a relationship in me she will find it. 

Here is an example of how attentive she is.  During the last time that we were not talking at work, she would listen to my conversations; she was able to do this because her work area is near mine.  I know she was listening because she told me she was listening; after we started to talk again.  She knew details of the conversations that I had with some of my friends at work.  Is that scary or what?

I thing she has been able to control a lot of her impulses in front of me.  But, I have this nagging feeling that she is just going to lose it one day and it will be the beginning of a series of rages the like of which I have never seen before.  I think that she is getting more and more comfortable exposing the way that she really is with me.  Anybody have experience with this?  Did any of you have a point where your bp just started to “let it all out”?

Marymac, define ugly.  I will take her calls because at this point they have not been angry, abusive or excessive.  In fact she has not tried to contact me at all yet.  However, she is involved with something that requires a considerable amount of her attention right now.  Once her attention is no longer needed we will see what will happen.  Based on her past behavior she can only take a few weeks of nc with me before she attempts contact again.

I know that this sounds stupid, but I have to maintain a balance because I work with her.  If she is not stepping over the boundaries then I can communicate.  I can do this because I have let go of the hope of a relationship, so all the buttons that she could have pushed before are no longer available to her.  When she talks to me, she talks to me.  When she is abusive I walk away.  When she is away from me I try not to concern myself with what she is doing, it is none of my business.  I don’t depend on her, so when she is not there for me it is no big deal.  If she can be there for me then that is great.  I don’t go to her for help, if she happens to be there when I need help, and she is willing, then I will let her help me.  I know that that sounds like a horrible friendship, but so far it is the only way that I can be friends with her.  It is what it is.

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Bailey
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« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2007, 11:48:31 PM »

Hey!  I finally figured out how to silence Dannyboy's text messages, so I won't be awakened tonight, how awesome is tht?

I like your description of how  clear your head is about walking away, etc.  Very strong.  Might be asking a bit too much of your self, but you gotta do what you gotta do.  Remember to give yourself a break if you vary from  the planned "program" one day!

We all have to give ourselves more breaks!

marymac

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« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2007, 08:32:17 AM »

Hey!  I finally figured out how to silence Dannyboy's text messages, so I won't be awakened tonight, how awesome is tht?

...

Yes custom ringtones gave me some part of my life back.  I know it was hard to ignore the impulse to want to talk to her, but knowing that she's trying to get a hold of me was so hard to shake..

In a way I really wish I knew what on earth set her off on this "I'm done with you, I hope you die" tirade.. Its been over a month now, and I finally think its over..  This kind of peace I'd be more than happy to share, but I don't know what caused it...

Oh well hang in there, with any luck 'dannyboy' will flip out from NC, and invent some reason to kick you out of his life, and it'll be over for you too.
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Bailey
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« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2007, 06:36:22 PM »

neko,

I swear, I would be relieved if he kicked me out of his life...instead, he alternates between idealizing me and hating me in his text messages...and sometimes he's somewhere in between with that "where did we go wrong" b.s.  But you are right...the NC does flip him out, says he feel abandoned and feels like he's disappearing.

right now, at this very moment, I miss him.  But I don't even think of him all that  often any more -- so sad, the way we leave some things behind, and take other things with us.

marymac
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« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2007, 03:21:49 PM »

Do you ever not know how you truly feel?  Do you ever wander past that ambivalent state that permeates every inch of you existence; when you go past the encouragement, when you look past the words that you tell yourself, so that you will make it through another day without feeling that deep sadness that you feel when you let someone you love go.   Is this one of the normal stages that I have to go through before I let go?  The stage where I really start to feel my feelings, because I have reached a part of the journey that lets me feel the love I lost without going insane with anguish.

I wonder if I have reached that state, or if I am simply passing a moment of clarity; just another moment in the long journey of letting go.  Maybe it is just a glimpse to the time when I can truly look back on this part of my life and think “I wonder how I ever got past that?”

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« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2007, 08:57:31 PM »

artist,

I've been seeing a Rubenfeld synergy therapist in addition to regular talk therapy. . . . . not that I'm that nuts, but I figure what the heck...

Rubenfeld T's start out just touching or holding a part of you, like your feet or your arm, and you are supposed to say whatever comes to mind.  The idea is that the body holds our pain.  In the first couple of sessions, she'd ask me, What are you thinking (or feeling)?  And I just wouldn't know!  So that was what we worked with, my not knowing.

So, yeah, I know what you mean.  And the deep sadness, yeah to that, too.  I am a big believer in anti-depressants, so I am on one now, and it helps.  Keeps the sadness from hitting too deep.  Of course we have to work through our feelings, but for me there is a point of overflow where the feelings become less than useful.

How're you doing tonight, Artist?

mac

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