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Author Topic: 7.02 | Forgiveness  (Read 26480 times)
paul16
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« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2008, 11:25:43 PM »

I forgive myself for allowing myself to be victimized. I also learned how to avoid becoming victimized like that in the future.

For those that victimize; they need to find a way to forgive themselves before they can be forgiven as well.
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« Reply #61 on: August 21, 2008, 01:13:41 AM »

I forgive myself for allowing myself to be victimized. I also learned how to avoid becoming victimized like that in the future.  For those that victimize; they need to find a way to forgive themselves before they can be forgiven as well.

Preciously!  Well Stated!  I believe everything in life is mine, my creation, if it is in my life it is for me to handle and resolve.   If you see it, it is yours!   Bitterness vs Forgiveness, My bitterness lessons when I achieve more understandings.  Guilty by association!  I FORGIVE MYSELF! TIME TO CREATE!  xoxo
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« Reply #62 on: August 21, 2008, 01:28:19 AM »

Even though I think I've been doing well in my Disengaging, I keep running up against this mental road block... .I still think about exBPbf, though I've gotten much better about realizing why I'm thinking about him, either because I'm filtering all the awfulness and only thinking of the sporadic good times, or whatever.  But I keep thinking about this forgiveness concept. 

I feel like I've done a lot of work to see him for who he truly is rather than the mentally healthy guy I tried to make myself believe he is. But I have this core of hurt in me which I'm having a difficult time dissolving.  I've read about forgiveness and listened to some talks about it, and I'm wondering if I can forgive him... .when I think about it, I get upset, thinking "how can I let him off the hook for all the BS he served up?"  Even though I have no plan to actually verbally tell him I forgive him... .this forgiveness stuff would truly just be for me, part of my healing.  And, I also I worry that if I can reach a point of forgiving him, I will be left feeling that I want to be with him again, having forgiven him... .

I'm confused on this subject and I'm really interested to hear what others think about this... .the concept of forgiveness, the process, your opinions... .thanks.

My advice is to refrain from so much of the obsessive "processing" stuff. I've found that it can really get to be a trap in its own right. Sometimes, IMO, psychotherapy culture gets things a little backwards, and that's precisely why I chose not to go that route in dealing with the things my ex put me through. Sometimes, it's best to just force yourself to forget about it and go focus on moving on. Too much "processing" can quickly become neurosis and/or navel-gazing self-absorption. I'm not calling you or your feelings that; I'm just saying that it can be an unintended consequence. Force yourself to be about other things in your life right now, and you'll be amazed one day to find that you're mostly over the wake of that crazy relationship.
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« Reply #63 on: August 21, 2008, 09:30:35 AM »

I have learned the hard way that I process until my spirit starts to sink.

At that point I shut it down and go on with life. 

I used to process Boulders and today I process pebbels. 

Life can bring us more than we can handle why add to it,

life is stressful enough!    :-*
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« Reply #64 on: August 21, 2008, 10:09:44 AM »

My advice is to refrain from so much of the obsessive "processing" stuff. I've found that it can really get to be a trap in its own right... .Force yourself to be about other things in your life right now, and you'll be amazed one day to find that you're mostly over the wake of that crazy relationship.

This is pretty much the conclusion I'm arriving at... .three weeks ago I decided to train to run a marathon in January 2009 (to "be about" other things in life) and I think the training, with a team of runners, is helping.  I never thought I'd run a marathon (I've mostly just been a recreational runner) but my rational is exBPbf put me through an emotional and psychological marathon so I might as well run a physical marathon. Makes sense to me anyway.

It's so interesting to read everyone's thoughts on this subject. I think the one thing that's clear is that forgiveness is a really personal thing. I'm sure my thoughts and feelings will evolve on the subject... .in a few months it will be interesting to see where I am on it, and the rest of you as well who are currently less than 6 mos out of the relationship with your BPs, for whom this subject might still be more fresh on your mind than others, perhaps.
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« Reply #65 on: August 21, 2008, 12:50:13 PM »



A Samurai warrior approached a Master and requested an explanation of the concepts of heaven and hell. The Master replied that the life of a warrior was such that concepts of a higher knowledge was something he would never be capable of.  The insult caused such anger, the Samurai rose up, drew his sword, fully intending a death blow.  The Master calmly stated, "That is Hell".  Stunned, the Samurai dropped his sword to the ground, bowed, in genuine humility asked for forgiveness.  The Master quietly replied, "That is Heaven".     

I will choose forgiveness as my path.  Twentyfive years ago I went through abuse and took the entire trip.  I know after acceptance is forgiveness.  Then I will be done.  All the power that this experience has to inflict pain and confusion will be replaced with the power of wisdom to guide me.  This experience will become part of my reference library.  Knowledge from pain and sacrifice.  Sounds like human history.

I can't do it right now.  The wounds are to fresh.  I am sure there are more to come.  Bizarre court room drama with argument and lies.  Things no non would like.  So I am ready, with a ton of help from this place. 

In the end I will forgive me for going to sleep on the job of my life.  I own that.  I will forgive my accomplice.  She is ill.  I will be the person I want to be when I can bump into her crazy ass at the grocery store and say HI with a smile and wish her well.  For those invested in retribution there is no better form.  For those who seek peace, there it is.

I am very lucky to have friends who insist I am to big of a person to do anything else.  I wish the road was shorter and not so bumpy.

So who do you want to be when you show up in any relationship? 
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JoannaK
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« Reply #66 on: August 21, 2008, 06:18:47 PM »

We have a Workshop on "Forgiveness":   https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58084.0;all

I will merge this thread into that workshop in a few days.   
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« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2008, 06:19:46 PM »

A current thread with great thoughts and discussion:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79349.0;all
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« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2008, 07:24:29 PM »

I am Christian.  I have forgiven her for everything.

My wife has a mental illness.  As Christ said (paraphrasing), she knows not what she does.

That does NOT mean I have forgotten all the crap she did to me, and the ultimate barrier I had to erect to stop her (I left.)
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« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2008, 09:45:59 PM »

Reading through this thread, the insightful posts, and, thank you JohannaK, the workshop on forgiveness that you linked, has led me to a feeling that maybe some of the reasons I have forgiven is... .

1. My experience with my exBPDbf was a gift.  A gift that has led me to a much, much, much, much better place mentally, emotionally and spiritually, than where I was at before I even met my ex.  I might have been doomed to the life I was leading or a longer time with it, and many more mistakes, if not for the seriousness of this situation, which demanded that 'I' change NOW, not sometime in the future, or when I 'want' to face my own demons, but NOW.  Who knows what would have happened if not for the extremity of the BPD relationship.  There are so many things that became clear to me, over time, and still as time goes on, because of what happened.  I don't condone what happened, but my life and personal relationships are so great now. So peaceful.  So wonderful.  I never had that before.  So although I don't feel what happend is ok, or that I want him in any way, I am thankful for that aspect.  How can I harbor unforgiveness when  I am so happy now?

2. I have not been a perfect person, that is for sure.  I have made many many mistakes in my life.  Whether they were as bad as my exBPDbf is debatable, but nevertheless, I have hurt other people in my life.  If I want forgiveness (I don't 'expect' forgiveness), but if I would like them to forgive me, how can I not be forgiving.  Not condoning, not wanting him back or even in my life, but forgiving.  It's over.  Time for me to move on, emotionally and mentally.  No ill will.  Wanting the best for him and anyone he comes in contact with.  And that's it. 
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« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2008, 06:46:31 AM »

Dear Foiles,

This is a fact of my human condition ... .I need to be forgiven.  Some would say we all do.  It has been my experience that you get what you give.  Be the change you wish to see in the world.  All the epic Mount Everest journeys in life.  Better than digging a hole.  I am setting no conditions on loving life or those who I have encountered along the way.  I have a limited capacity to be around some people and that is my problem to deal with.  I am the most difficult person in my life.  I am so busy trying to make myself behave and do my best, there is no room for  grudges and making other people do what I want.  So I know what I must do.  I will become the new and improved version of me.  That cannot be accomplished through negative emotion.  We all create in the positive or in the negative.  We must choose.  Hate and grudges speak about the hater and the person holding the grudge much more than the target of them.  The world of dark brooding  shadow.  The world of forgiveness and compassion is full of light.  Growing things do not don well in dark places.     
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« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2008, 07:13:06 AM »

It has been my experience that you get what you give. 

I believe this to be true in the context of exchange between two mentally healthy individuals.(for the most part)

This thread is about forgiveness. I still can't get my head around the idea that someone has "willfully" wronged us or that we have "willfully" wronged ourselves.

Sometimes it is simply a case of people having different sized central processing units. Figuratively speaking if one strikes us we are to turn the other cheek. The whole concept of that is to imply that the person doing the striking has a conscious notion of what they've done in the first place.

If we remove the romanticism from the idea of forgiveness we are left with a simple fact. We eventually come to the realization that with some people the giving never is reciprocated or appreciated and it is a condition without equalibrium or balance. Nothing to forgive, it just isn't a win/win situation. It can't survive.
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« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2008, 08:52:11 AM »

Excerpt
Quote from: challenged on Today at 06:46:31 AM

It has been my experience that you get what you give.

Excerpt
Quote from: ozzy at 6:46:31 AM

I believe this to be true in the context of exchange between two mentally healthy individuals.(for the most part)I still can't get my head around the idea that someone has "willfully" wronged us or that we have "willfully" wronged ourselves.

I see what you mean with the BPD, ozzy; you can give to the BPD until you are blue in the face and the same forgiveness isn't returned. 

But in a general sense, when I applied it to all aspects of my life, the idea of getting what you give has worked for me.  Forgiveness, to me, is just one part of a life filled with positive energy.  I see it in my classroom.  When I come into the class upbeat and positive, my students respond in kind, and the opposite is true. 

I believe that the forgiveness really starts with yourself, and once that happens; well, if I can forgive myself for the things I've done, and hope for forgiveness for me from others, I just naturally feel more forgiving myself.  Part of that means turning the other cheek.  I've probably done worse things than what the other person has done at some point in my life.  But it also means I don't feel the need to punish myself and stand there while the person continues to slap me.  That is a problem they have that I can't fix.  But I'm learning to fix myself and to stop standing there.  I can forgive them but I've also forgiven myself enough that I don't feel the need to be punished anymore, by myself for standing there or by them for slapping me. 

Before the BPD, I was ignorant of forgiveness.  I knew about it obviously, but what did it really mean?  I guess in a vague way I felt it meant I wasn't mad at them anymore, I didn't care about them.  But there was still an underlying resentment of which I was only semi-conscious.  It pervaded so many areas of my life.  I lived an unaware life.  I think BPDs live an unaware life.  They are so wrapped up in negative emotions there is no room for anything else.  Do they willfully wrong us?  I think sometimes no and sometimes yes.  My exBPDbf said a few times that he had done x or said y because he was so hurt that he wanted to hurt me back. 

How could I forgive all of that?  I stopped obsessing about specifics.  He said this horribly hurtful thing or he did that horribly hurtful thing. I used to argue endlessly with him, in my head, about this or that.  Then I just tried to take in the big picture of the mental illness.  NOT that I condoned his actions or stayed (I don't believe that anything he does will ever get it completely under control).  But it really is sad and scary.  To live that kind of a life forever?  Horrible. 

I have done things, to myself or others, that I KNEW were wrong.  But other 'forces' or whatever you want to call them, in myself, allowed me to do them.  I'm trying to get a handle on those 'forces'.  Some I have, some I haven't. 


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« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2008, 09:07:20 AM »

I believe forgiveness to be an essential human virtue. We need to find the ability to forgive in order to be forgiven. I understand this, however I am just attempting to make the point that I do not see the connection between this virtue and how it applies to mental illness.

If a 6 year old child calls you names does it require forgivness on your part or just a heightened understanding and level of maturity to see it for what it is. We are all created equal "spiritually", but one cannot argue that mentally we are not all lateral due to varying circumstances. Age, mental health etc... .

To say "Forgive them for they know not what they do" to me is not condusive to the actual act of forgivness. How about forgiving those who know what they do is wrong but do it anyway. That is the true test of character and forgivness.

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« Reply #74 on: August 22, 2008, 10:19:35 AM »

If we remove the romanticism from the idea of forgiveness we are left with a simple fact. We eventually come to the realization that with some people the giving never is reciprocated or appreciated and it is a condition without equalibrium or balance. Nothing to forgive, it just isn't a win/win situation. It can't survive.[/quote]
  This is true Ozzy. 

Yesterday I was with 6 people who know my spouse and myself.  They have seen what I have gone through for years.  As my spouse tries to get people to hate,  I talk about struggling to forgive and my own mistakes.  She talks about an ORDER FOR PROTECTION and I talk about how frightened she must be.  Everyone of those people say, "We are with you, Mark".  "Anything we can do Mark, just ask".  I ask them to be kind.  She is out to get me - thinking she is protecting herself - she won't hurt you.  She is a scared little kid like all the rest of us.  She just doesn't know it yet.  The first time I expressed in the negative a very precious friend said, "You are a much bigger person than this.  You can rise above this and I expect you to start now.  You can't act like her in front of me, and expect me to remain quiet.  I have known you for to long."  I love that friend.  I am not saying my benevolence will be recognized by my SO.  That is not realistic and I don't need that.   It is recognized by me and the authentic friends I have.  My efforts at being decent, moral, sane, are being reflected back at me.  It helps more than the adrenaline of anger and resentment.     

Eventually this will be over and I will no longer struggle with her.  She will be a memory.  A moment in the past not forgotten, forgiven.  Next journey please.  
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« Reply #75 on: August 22, 2008, 12:11:14 PM »



Well written article that touches on issues we have here with friends & family and forgiveness (or not).

www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/08/22/lw.forgiveness/index.html

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« Reply #76 on: August 22, 2008, 12:56:07 PM »

Thanks for that OY... .Since there has been an ongoing thread about this I've really started to ponder this subject as it relates to the people in my life... .

My parents - a horrid childhood, but, I suppose I have forgiven them for it... .they are who they are and they are not going to change, but, I limit the time I am around them.

DB - I spent alot of time being really really angry with him, angry with the illness, angry with myself for having tolorated as much as I did for as long as I did... .Now, I've reached more of a point of apathy with him, he's still an annoyance with the re-engagements and now trying to get back into the lives of mutual friends who he had isolated over the last bunch of years... .now that he has run his usual course with the new group of friends. 

Do I forgive him?  Well, again... .he is who he is and he's not going to change... .he hurt me and my children, damaged my self esteem, left me heartbroken, in debt and a shell of the person I once was... .but, continuing to be angry at him is not going to do me any good, it will not change anything... .the only thing it will do is keep me stuck.  So, yes... .

BUT, I will not allow him in my life, I will not ever give him the opportunity to have any further negative effect on me... .he does not deserve my friendship or even civility from me, nor will he get it.

As many have said, forgiveness is more about us than it is about those who have hurt us... .

Forgiving myself was much harder because I expect more from myself than I do from others, I thought I was smarter, more savvy, stronger than the person who did tolorate so much.  I allowed myself, my kids, my life to be controlled by a madman... .yeah, forgiving me was a much harder place to get to... .but, I think I am there now... .
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« Reply #77 on: August 22, 2008, 01:34:58 PM »



I have a problem with the entire concept of forgiveness.  To me, forgiveness is something that we as humans are not empowered to give.  In my eyes, forgiveness takes the form of assuming a position of a higher moral ground and bestowing it upon the peons surrounding us - as a king might do to his subjects.  I am speaking only in terms of one adult to another.  Yes, the behavior of a BPD parent toward a child is likely abominable, but still, why does the child (even as an adult) have to forgive the parent?  The parent should be held responsible for that behavior; forgiveness does nothing to help the parent see the light of good mental health.

What are we forgiving?  Do you forgive someone for being who they are?  Who am I to judge that person?  Who am I to say "your behavior is unacceptable, but I forgive you" ?  That makes me "better than" the other person and frankly I'm not comfortable with having that kind of ego. 

We, the wronged (again, speaking as an adult), have the opportunity at any moment to walk away and save ourselves.  It is OUR behavior that we must hold accountable to ourselves - staying and allowing ourselves to be abused OR walking away and turning our back on the abuse.  If we walk away, what is there to forgive?  If we stay, who is responsible for staying and taking it?

Help me out here - maybe I need to not see it from the perspective of BPD.  Is there a different scenario where forgiveness is not looked at in the same context as I'm perceiving it either in the article I shared or in our lives?

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« Reply #78 on: August 22, 2008, 02:11:12 PM »

I'm the wrong one to ask, Oy.

I figure if the person cared in the first place, then he/she wouldn't have done the offending behavior... .so why should I forgive them?

An example: My Mom stopped talking to me again after she had visted me and the ex in Az. when we were still dating. She left, saying behind my back, of course, she didn't like the way she was treated by us. But we had been perfectly cordial and whatnot, so I didn't see the point in apologizing for stuff we didn't do. OK... .a year and a half later, no contact, but I send her a wedding invite. She didnot come, because (as she says) she was busy.  And THIS I am going to forgive, on top of the fact that years later she knew I was in the fight for my life in the divorce and she STILL didn't contact me? C'mon.

To me forgiveness rings hollow when it falls on deaf ears, and I am just not one to supplicate myself to an inconsiderate emotional abuser AND have my forgiveness go unacknowledged. Sorry... .I have just a little more pride than that.

--J
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« Reply #79 on: August 22, 2008, 02:22:52 PM »

Forgiveness... .an odd concept I agree and does ring of some greater than thou tones... .

Forgiveness is the mental and/or spiritual process of ceasing to feel resentment, indignation or anger against another person for an actual or perceived offense, difference or mistake, or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution.

I will never get restituion for all that has been done... .nor can I let the continued anger against him control me... .I can forgive for my own sake, but, I will not forget nor open myself up to further hurt... .will my lack of forgiveness change my parents or what they did, will it give DB some major epiphany about his behavior and change anything... no of course not... .nothing can change what has been done, I can only change how I move forward and away from that.

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« Reply #80 on: August 22, 2008, 03:49:57 PM »

Your desire to forgive is enough.

So many people here posting ,including myself, have been so terribly hurt, mistreated and abused. It is absolutely OK to feels those waves of anger and frustration at such vicitmization. Whilst this process is happening, not only have we not fully healed but it may be an indicator that forgiveness is beyond our grasp... .for now.We may also think we have forgiven and then anger... .all of a sudden, when we often don't expect it,will surge up and we feel pain.

I think it will take time.

All we need to do is hold onto the willingness... .at whatever point and not expect too much of ourselves.

That process is for us. Our healing. Our own private letting go and releasing. It need not be said but carried deep in our soul.

I am not ready to forgive yet. I am ready to be willing. I am more than ready to completely heal and the rest will, in time, follow. I wish these things for us all.

Hugs

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« Reply #81 on: August 22, 2008, 05:21:02 PM »

Forgiveness for nons encompasses many different aspects, and doesn't fall into the normal forgiveness category that we would deal with in everyday people and their wrongdoings. Forgiveness, unless we are in the proper stages of healing can be very dangerous to our vulnerability in going back to the BP, after all if we didn't spend the majority of our time forgiving them over and over again during the time they were there, then most of us wouldn't be on this board now!

One of my first therapy sessions after my break-up with my BPGF, the counselor mentioned compassion, and explained that she is suffering too- that got me so angry I almost stopped going back to him, but then I thought about it. The BP's have a mental illness that they cannot control, I didn't date my ex, I dated her disease- and everyone here did too. The good times in the beginning-the honeymoon period, think about it, that was no different then the bad times. In reality the good times, great sex, idolization, etc. That wasn't the real them-that was evil too-that was the brainwashing that trapped us in to stay for the abuse. Most of the time I was with her, I was a lot more frustrated with myself for allowing someone to abuse me like they did, so first we must learn to forgive ourselves, and realize that if we knew everything all of us here on the boards know of course we wouldn't have been with our BP's! Second of all, once we understand that it is a mental illness and not intentional evil, it is easier to sort out our emotions. Do they suffer more in the long run? Of course they do, that is why its called "Self destructive behavior" we might be hurt by their cheating, but it costs them their partners stability, trust, and unconditional love. My ex would spend uncontrollably, now her credit is destroyed, when the money ran out she wrote bad checks, now she can't get a bank account, or anything else that requires any type of credit-so she is suffering in that way-having to use check cashing services and no bank to keep her money in, using money orders instead of checks, and having to use a prepaid cell phone. She didn't pay her car insurance, ultimately her license and registration will be suspended and she will eventually end up arrested, no license, no car,  means no work so the cycle continues. Yeah she moved onto a new guy, and is enjoying the honeymoon period with someone new-by all accounts she seems much happier than me right now, but we all know that period will end and the BP will surface, another relationship ends due to her illness, but I have the hope of having one solid lasting relationship while she will suffer through many.

So when I start to depersonalize the abuse, I realize the forgiveness comes from understanding the disease, but there is truly no person to forgive- we dated their disease, the BP has taken over their soul, we don't know who they are, becauase they don't know who their selves are-which is part of the DSM criteria, so how are we to forgive a person we never met, for us nons the term forgiveness should be replaced with understanding or depersonalization. Yes I can be mad at the cheating and damage, and the part that was worse than the abuse was not allowimng me to leave, but no I realize that with a BP relationship the forgiveness is for ourselves, and the understanding is towards their disease which they didn't choose to have, and suffer in their own way.
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« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2008, 08:28:12 PM »

One of my first therapy sessions after my break-up with my BPGF, the counselor mentioned compassion, and explained that she is suffering too- that got me so angry I almost stopped going back to him, but then I thought about it. The BP's have a mental illness that they cannot control, I didn't date my ex, I dated her disease- and everyone here did too. The good times in the beginning-the honeymoon period, think about it, that was no different then the bad times. In reality the good times, great sex, idolization, etc. That wasn't the real them-that was evil too-that was the brainwashing that trapped us in to stay for the abuse. Most of the time I was with her, I was a lot more frustrated with myself for allowing someone to abuse me like they did, so first we must learn to forgive ourselves, and realize that if we knew everything all of us here on the boards know of course we wouldn't have been with our BP's!

I really like this... .I *did* date his disease, you're right.  And you're also right, the good times were made of the same material as the bad, it was all a part of the "trap."  In saying this, I absolutely do not absolve myself of my choice to enter the relationship or to try to sustain it.  I'm beginning to think it was something I had to experience, being ensnared in his world for that time... .this post really strikes a chord for me, I hope it does for others as well.
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« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2008, 08:51:41 PM »

So when I start to depersonalize the abuse, I realize the forgiveness comes from understanding the disease, but there is truly no person to forgive- we dated their disease, the BP has taken over their soul, we don't know who they are, becauase they don't know who their selves are-which is part of the DSM criteria, so how are we to forgive a person we never met, for us nons the term forgiveness should be replaced with understanding or depersonalization. Yes I can be mad at the cheating and damage, and the part that was worse than the abuse was not allowimng me to leave, but no I realize that with a BP relationship the forgiveness is for ourselves, and the understanding is towards their disease which they didn't choose to have, and suffer in their own way.

577, that is a great insight and fundamental in making acceptance in what happened and granting ourselves the ability to move on with our lives. We may think of them as children in an adults body but the wait for them to grow up could consume a lifetime. It is all important that they didn't volunteer to have the disorder just as much as I wouldn't volunteer to have cancer so forgiveness and understanding is easier to grant.
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Letting go when it is too painful to hang on is hard to rationalize.

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« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2008, 10:18:04 PM »

Yes, and to really comprehend depersonalization, think about the fact that we all have in common in our lives people with a disorder, but we didn't all have the same person in common. That is why when you hear the stories on these boards, and they are all basically similiar, some more severe than others-however the premise is the same. Good point LAPDR about the child being trapped in adults body. Quite often I would literally feel as if I was dealing with a young child, rather than a grown adult. Sure they're bodies can do adult things like work, drive, have sex, and pay bills- but the adult responsibility that comes with those actions are when they seem to clash. I would notice my EXBPGF would over react so dramatically to such trivial things in hysterics, and I would think to myself "You wish you had problems", only when I fully learned the dynamics of BP did it make sense.
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« Reply #85 on: August 23, 2008, 07:52:52 AM »

"The term forgiveness should be replaced with understanding or depersonalization." Quote from 577

I think I was stumbling around this idea.  Very useful distinction.  There is no need to forgive a disease.  Thanks 
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« Reply #86 on: August 23, 2008, 09:47:13 AM »

With all the facts, there is part of me that says:

Oh it will/can be different!  Hmmm

Not sure where that comes from, It is a lie my idealistic side hums out!

It is good today with my new life and not being verbally screamed at and assulted no emotional abuse and neglect, no caretaking going on : )

ALL MY PAST GIRLFIENDS AND ASSHOLE FOLKS IN MY LIFE ARE FORGIVEN! AMEN!

I am throwing a Huge party today with 50+ folks many new to me... .

See ya tomorrow         Smiling (click to insert in post)  Smiling (click to insert in post)  8)  Smiling (click to insert in post)        
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« Reply #87 on: August 23, 2008, 09:49:50 AM »

I have no problem "forgiving" scumbag if he's out of the picture.  I realize that he's ill, and I have no trouble seeing that he's miserable, scared, and on some deep level, knows that he's mentally ill.  He knows that people who know him well aren't going to like him, and he lives with this fear constantly.

Poor guy.  Problem is, he's never been OUT of the picture.  11 years after I left him, he is still a constant in my life and in our son's life, destroying everything we try to build.

I hate his guts.  I wish he was dead.  I'd dance on his grave.
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« Reply #88 on: August 23, 2008, 10:03:30 AM »



"The term forgiveness should be replaced with understanding or depersonalization." Quote from 577

I think I was stumbling around this idea.  Very useful distinction.  There is no need to forgive a disease.  Thanks, for the encouragement to devalue my former partner to the point where she is no longer a person with an illness.  She is a disease.  Idealization followed by demonizing.  Sounds familiar.  Don't take this personally but I think that is a bunch of cold hearted crap.  Great for reality TV of the "you're fired" style. 

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« Reply #89 on: August 23, 2008, 12:19:17 PM »

forgiveness


forgiveness to me signifies the end of conflict, a done deal.

although with the unbtreated/undiagnosed BPD's in our lives, to it seems like giving them forgiveness is the same as permission for them to do the same thing again.

they also dont seem to grasp the subtleties of the term 'sorry' which to most people means 'wow, i will try really hard to not do that again' but to the BPD it's like the clue to an action they can do to needle you, i.e. 'she/he made me apologize for this behavior... .therefore it must really bother them and i will be able to use this as an additional weapon against them'

for me, when i think about forgiveness, i think about forgiving myself for the heartache my own actions caused me over the course of this journey, also acceptance of what my role was in the drama.  i am still in the process of doing this. 

will i ever forgive my BPD?

not per se.  seeing as they dont think they are in the wrong what would the point be?

a very thought provoking thread. 
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