3.02 | Is it better for the kids if I stay or leave?

[JoannaK]

To  add to tony's current topic... .

[LEO]

 if you could see the damage done staying for the kids is ludicrous.No kid deserves to be screamed at mentally abused that way.look at the post of children of BPDs here.this is my sons legacy they will cary it with them till they die.I have no mercy for a BPD they show none for others.

[NewLifeforHGG]

Leo I must agree.

[JoannaK]

I had written this some time back, just saw it in my notes:

Ladies and gentlemen, please, please, please put your kids first! 

Even if the children themselves are not abused, children who grow up in chaotic homes in which the parents are constantly at each other's throats, or one parent is verbally or physically abusing the other are not growing up with ANY role model for how people should function in a family.  They often resent the parent who is abused more than they resent the abusive parent.  Please remember that emotional abuse  is often just as destructive to the child's development as the abuse of a parent who demeans, neglects, or abuses more directly.

Some parents think they will wait until the kids are out of the house, but it might be better if the parents split up earlier so the children have a chance to live in some peace and order.  My son has made it clear to everyone that he was relieved when we finally separated.  His test scores and his behavior improved significantly in the year after the separation.   

Dads, don't assume that your wife will get custody.  More and more men get custody of their kids if they can show that their wife is imbalanced or abusive.  Many men have described women who are completely unfit to parent their children.  What happens to the kids when you are out of the house?  Can a woman who has engaged in physical abuse or threats against dad really be an effective parent?

About counseling... .yes, of course, by all means, try to get things fixed up.  But some people here have gone through counseling for years and years... .some bp's have been diagnosed for years, and yet still no change.  Think of what specific changes you want to see in your spouse's behavior and in what time frame... .be reasonable!  Raging, name-calling, physical abuse, financial irresponsibility, threats of divorce, etc., should be gone... .plus whatever else is going on that needs to stop.  Don't assume that a divorce threat is merely a threat... .if the word "divorce" is being used in your home, you should prepare for it... .just in case.  Too many people here have assumed that the spouse is just venting, and ... .Wham!... .they are hit with papers, or the wife takes the kids and disappears. 

Don't bury your head in the sand; if your kids are little, don't assume that your sick spouse is a competent parent.  Your kids need to come first, no matter how hard it is!  Make sure that you aren't brandishing the flag of the "intact family" just because you don't want to do what needs to be done.  Believe me, parents should do everything they can to keep the marriage and the home healthy and happy... .but if it's impossible, the healthy parent needs to make a break and protect the kids.  Kids spending a good chunk of time in a healthy home with a healthy parent will be much better off than those spending all of their time in a dysfunctional family with parents who don't have the energy or the mental health to successfully parent.

[LEO]

 I was raised in a family where divorce was almost non existent,You Married for life.Yo advise someone to get out of a marriage is something I have never done.late January 06 My then 12 year old son developed severe school phobia and a reversal of his sleep pattern that is going on now he was up all night and I cant wake him hes exhausted.It was not long after for the first time I was away from her in 1 week in three building a family cabin next state over.What was happening is she was alone with him and already in at least one affair She would scream and make those cutting remarks BPDs are so good at two years no school,her comment youre sons are just like you haunts Me.the child can be painted black and crushed.She works him to get her agenda and after 24 years of marriage  i know she can devastate a strong adult. It is My opinion her guilt plays a large part she went for$ and PAINTED US BLACK.  I do not envy any faced with the choice.I hope when i am able to be here for him as she wants me out of this little town.to Me blood is thicker than mud,I bear responsibility to the ones I fathered .

[bewildered2]

my daughter's school performance improved significantly after we separated.

nearly three years now since the separation and my daughter seems to be very happy.

she seems to like the routine that has been established in terms of staying with me and then her mother so it seems to be working.

the thought of going back to what we had before does not bear thinking about.

i believe that my daughter is better off this way.

i hope i am right.

b2   

[Glad2BeHere]

I wish I had gotten out when my daughter was young. Looking back, I realize that things were getting bad when she was about 8 or 9. Now, she is 28.

At least she's out and on her own now. She's doing OK and working on herself. She's away from her NPD father. For her own self preservation, she only contacts him as rarely as possible and keeps her boundaries well in place. Still, the damage is there. She has had problems with self-esteem and cutting.

I should have left a long time ago. At the time I was frightened. I had a full time job and was the 'breadwinner.'  Child care was a major expense and issue. He was the stay-at-home dad and really milked it for what it was worth. Later on, in his convoluted logic, he would tell us that he 'sacrificed his career' in order to raise our daughter  , and conveniently blame all of his career failures on us. 

It was truly the land of FOG and circular logic. He convinced me(us) that we needed him.

We would have been so much better off without him... .

G2BH

[jeff]

That is my problem.  I love my wife but can I risk the well being of our son if she and I reconcile?  Her therapist has told me it could take years for her to be able to effectivly deal with BPD and the other things that she has going on.  In 2 years my son will be 5 and very aware of what is going on.  Then it may take another year for she and I to work on our marriage (now he is 6) and after a year of living together we decide that we cant do it and divorce (now he is 7). At this age the divorce would be much more tramatic for him to deal with.   This is an extremely difficult decision for me!

[exhaustedw2]

JoannaK, I agree this topic needs to be discussed often!

Like lapdr I have mulled this discussion over in my mind and studied the different perspectives posted here.

The first thing that struck me is how each person has to make their own decision.  Each of our BPD/NPD relationships are similar, yet specifically different in their own way.

I met my ubpw in 1989, married in 1991, have two boys 10 and 13.  Still together with ubpw, but not w/o event.  Had I known what I know now after SWOE, I would have seen the signs of BPD and ran!  The sad thing is that my uBPDw was open about the abuse she suffered as a child.  It felt good to be the white night!  Now my suit of armor is dirty and dented.   

Anyway, here's a reader's digest recap of my past two years:  (married 15 years, last 5 worst bp behavior)

6/05 – confused, all blame on me, isolated from FOO by ubpw, abused and trapped in bad marriage

12/05 - ubpw rages and physically attacks me.  Stop Walking on Eggshells reference from counselor and my world changes

1/06 to 9/06 - trapped in abusive situation feeling lessens, I gain strength and health, journal and documentation, got “Splitting” and “You’re My World” and ready for war, I push for MC

9/06 – MC begins and is pointless

10/06 - Attorney hired, about to file and I have confrontation with ubpw.  "Behavior stops tonight!", "Existing marriage is dead", I am willing to start a new marriage with different rules.  Ubpw agrees and MC turns from blaming to reconstructing.  Hold filing for divorce.

12/06 - Attorney on hold to see if behavior sticks, still keeping journal, trust building, praying not just a re-engagement and I unwisely stop MC due to financial pressures.

3/07 – Trust rebuilding, BP behavior good and we are in honeymoon, Got retainer back from attorney.

4/07 – April fools day, Adderall added to ubpw meds and behavior gets more edgy, aggressive, confrontational, others ask me, “What is going on? Is she OK?”  Am I OK?  I try to start MC again.

5/07 – Heart broken and feeling the fool with BP spike, Momster’s Day bad!  Paranoid, “I know what you’ve been doing the last 2 months!”  Mad because I have been “going behind her back” with children, undermining her.  Nothing about her undermining herself!  6 months of healing and trust building erased!  She won’t go to MC.  Blame, Blame, Blame!  I push for MC or think marriage is over.  I state, “ I am not the same person I was a year ago!”

6/07 – MC starts again, I stand up to blame and hold up a mirror.  I accept my part of issues in MC.  Ubpw never apologizes, just does nice things for me.  Typical bp inability to accept being wrong.

7/07  - Tension still there, MC continues, and will continue as long as we are married.

This whole time I have been concerned with my kids and my own well being.  I am concerned what my boys are seeing as a role model for marriage and what it means to be a man.  I am conscious of my vows.(and am not taking them lightly)  The grass is not necessarily greener and divorce is hard.  My w coddles my youngest, and expects perfection of my oldest or harsh rebuke to follow.  She pushes them academically, and expects them to try their best, as do I.  I am concerned about the damage she is doing to my oldest self esteem.

To continue the history:

8/07 Birthday of youngest has big party and all goes well.  bp seems to be in check.  MC states we are having "communication problems".  I understand MC is trying not to blame and knows my side.

9/07  Oldest's birthday does not go well.  BP rears it's ugly head and the behavior is poor.  I call my w on the behavior and state, ":)o not ruin your son's birthday, stop this behavior now!"  30 minutes later, she is back in check and behaving better.  I attend a MC session on my own and state the need for her to be in continual therapy w/0 me.  I made an appointment with the MC who is a good, direct, challenging, family counselor for my wife and told her.  Her reaction was, "I don't need you to be my secretary!"  I stayed calm and let her know she could change the appointment if she wished and for her to call the MC.  Since then she has straightened up her behavior.  The bp is mostly in check.  I must admit, I am really tired of being a punching bag and never hearing, "I'm sorry."  I get a back scratch or a favorite dinner instead.  At least I understand her way of saying sorry.

All of my decisions and actions stem from my desire to do what is best for the kids. They are worth it and thankfully I can say they are terrific children, well adjusted, loving, confident, sweet and healthy.

My goal is the same.  I spend most of my bpdfamily.com time in "staying", hoping for insight from those who have gone before me.

To the point of this thread, I have not stayed for the kids; however, did feel trapped for years until I got the proper counsel and attorney to explain my true rights.  This gave me the confidence to stand up to my ubpw and draw the line in the sand.  It is a tough road, two steps forward and one step back.

My oldest did not want a divorce and told me, "you'll be sorry!"  He took a lot of the blame on himself because he could not blame me and ubpw was so good at telling him he caused our fights.  I always told him it was not his fault or responsibility.  I make sure he knows this is between Mom and Dad!

Questions from JoannaK:

1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute? No.  However, once you make the final decision, I would stand strong and not get sucked back in by a re-engagement.  Once out, stay out.  I'm not out yet.

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a BPD/NPD parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?  Yes, the studies done have nothing to do with the situations here on this board.  IMHO, it is obvious that a child will be better of away from abuse.

3.  Who here has "stayed for the kids" and believes they made the right decision?  I have not stayed for the kids.  I have stayed because my ubpw has changed her behavior.  My eyes are wide open and I am watchful everyday.  It is not easy.

6.  If you stayed (either are still together or until the kids are older), how have your kids been affected?  I am concerned my w is projecting onto my oldest since she knows I will not tolerate her behavior.  He is standing up to her and I am backing him up.  Makes for some touchy situations, but I will not allow her to abuse him instead of me.  I call her on it every time!  Sometime after the fact and ask her to apologize to him or right then and there.  It is tiring.

4.  Who here "stayed for the kids" and wishes he/she would not have?  N/A  Very interested in other's responses.

5.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)... .  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?  N/A  Very interested in other's responses.

7.  If you left, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex?  Would the situation have been better for your kids without the "two homes" thing?  N/A  Very interested in other's responses.

8.  Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  NO, I stayed, with boundries.

    Or think it was the right thing to do?  Yes, I know it was for now.  We can only make the best decision today, knowing what we know today.  Tomorrow, with different information, it may be a different decision.

    What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations?

A. Love your kids! Spend time with them.

B.  DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT!

C.  Seek the best attorney you can find and interview to see what your rights really are and how to protect them.

D.  Get yourself evaluated by a good counselor to validate you are not the issue, as your bp is so good at blaming you.  I took an MMPI which is used in custody evaluations and it validated me by saying I was well balanced and a bit too honest!

E.  Read bpdfamily.com and post here for support.  There is a wealth of knowledge in these posts and lessons can be learned.  Remember, you have to make your own decision.

F.  Take care of yourself first!  The best analogy is the airplane oxygen mask you secure upon yourself first before you assist a child.

G.  Get the bp out in the open if possible, so others see the behavior.  This will help validate you and help for witnesses in a custody case.

H.  Be selective with who you speak to about the issue with your bp.  You need a close trusted friend.  Be careful not to broadcast your problems and look like the bp to the outside world.

I.  IMHO, it is not necessary to get a BP diagnosis from a shrink.  The behavior is the focus.  My ubpw would never  accept a BP diagnosis anyway.  The worst pain I see here of bpdfamily.com is people who have bps that use the BP as an excuse or a crutch.


9.  If you are a man, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?

NO!  I WOULD NEVER LEAVE MY BOYS!  I believe the key is a good attorney.  Dad's do get the kids these days.  The other thing I read is that a lot of good evidence is gained during the divorce proceedings when the bp shows her BP!  The key is to be prepared and document, document, document!  "You're my world" (CDs) and "Splitting" are outstanding references for prep for a fight.  And from what I have read, it will be a fight.  Thankfully I am not there yet.  I am not holding my breath and am still documenting behavior to this day!  If the time comes, I will use every resource I have to ensure my boys are with me.  I know my w will always be part of their life.  I guarantee I will be a major part of their life!

I hope this will help someone.  I know I have needed encouragment many times. 

God bless, Exhausted

[ghost]

I read a bunch of posts on this thread, but there are so many now I couldn't read all of them, just wanted to put my opinion in. My mom has BPD. and as a child she started fights with my dad,  then would drag me to shrinks like a victim,  as if I would be upset about them divorcing and I would always say " i would like them to divorce to stop the fighting ", which was true. They did divorce but the drama and court cases continued for my entire life. These people feed off drama. Although most people are outraged by their behavior, its best for the children to leave them out of it completely! until they are old enough to understand. The BPD will do everything to trash talk you to the kids,  create drama and the more energy you give back the more they will mess with you. Shut up, keep your distance and they will mess with someone else. This includes extended family,  always say good things about the BPD to the kids or nothing. You can trash talk them but only if the kids are a good 30 miles away. My father fighting back just extended my moms drama more, and I was left with a life of their messes instead of my childhood. It really didn't matter who was the cause, this is what my time was taken up with period. Going for custody is tricky because if you show you want the kids, most likely your BPD spouse will fight you for them harder. If you don't make it into a war, they may even get bored and surrender the kids, maybe even after a year. My mom really wanted nothing to do with us except for the control alot of the time. Of course try to spend as much time with the kids as you can, keep them in their regular routines and make their life calmer as they will always have alot of chaos from the other side. My mom wasted a bunch of my time with her drama, I never kept a steady school of friends or of activities. If you kid plays on a soccer team, for example, do your best to keep them there or at least keep in contact with their old friends, make sure if you move your kid still keeps up their interest in soccer. I actually do suggest moving at least an hour away from BPD, as these people will not bug you and mess with your life as easily, they will find other people near by to do this to.Def. put kids in therapy, warn the therapist about the others BPD, but do not tell the kids, this is to ensure the kids not develop the disorder and have a place to talk about the crazy behavior they experience with the  BPD/ keep a firm grip on their own normalcy and lives. Just give the kids all the love and support you can and if you have a chance to get full custody without showing the other you want it/. example: BPD person drops the kids at your doorway one night or says I don't want them, act like you don;t want them either but have other write a statement from lawyer and say you will talk in court,' but I can't keep them', once you get this letter, the grab custody and say actually 'I do want them', but now you have a letter from BPD saying they do not want the children. In other word you have to beat them at their own game, but leave the kids out of it! The goal should be full custody from you always. Maybe when splitting say you have no prob. keeping the kids or assume you will have joint custody. Then make a big stink over how you get the tv, and the dishes or something and this is where the BPDs energy will go. good luck. don't forget to enjoy your own life.

[JoannaK]

As there are some new discussions on the Staying board about this (and some new posters), I'm going to again push this to the top. 

[Matt]

OK, I'll bite:

(Background:  Married 11 years, separated since December, kids 9 and 11 and stepkids 18 and 30.  Divorce in progress, too soon to say if it will be peaceful or not.)

1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute?

Not sure how to answer this.  I thought I was committed to never getting a divorce no matter what.  I took the AA slogan "One day at a time" as my own:  Whatever she does today, I can live with it, and I'll worry about tomorrow tomorrow.  I counted down the days til the kids are grown, then found myself re-defining "grown" to convince myself I could make it that long.  When she threatened divorce I told the kids "Momma doesn't mean that, when she'd mad she just says things to hurt Daddy."  (Which was true.)  I only changed my thinking while in jail, because she had called the cops and lied to them (told them I pushed her down the stairs).  16 hours in jail and I came out determined not to take it any more.  So, I guess my decision to stay was absolute, but then she crossed a line, and then my decision to leave (unless she took responsibility for her actions and committed to change) was absolute.

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a BPD/NPD parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?

It would probably change it, but I am still very aware of the statistics (though I can't quote them).  Boys who grow up without a dad are way, way, way more likely to become substance abusers, abuse children and/or women, end up in prison, commit suicide, etc.  You name it - any problem in society - and it's largely driven by boys without dads.  What I don't know is, can I be an effective dad without living in the same house?  Is that good enough, or is it just a tragedy on a smaller scale?  I'm optimistic, but I also read that about half the kids who grow up in a BPD-dominated home have big problems as adults.  My stepson (30) has big problems which are easy to track to growing up with his only parent a BPD sufferer.  My stepdaughter (18) seems fine.  So there's your 50%.  But where does that leave my son (9) and daughter (11)?  Will one of them suffer?

3.  Who here has "stayed for the kids" and believes they made the right decision? 

I stayed 11 years for the kids and I'm glad I did.  I also think I did the right thing leaving when she became violent and had me put in jail;  once she crossed that bridge it wasn't safe being with her, and I can't support the kids if I'm in jail.

4.  Who here "stayed for the kids" and wishes he/she would not have? 

5.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)... .  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?

I think it's probably the right decision.  The kids seem OK so far.  I worry a little about abuse:  My wife abused my stepson but that was about 20 years ago and his dad was not around to watch out for him.

6.  If you stayed (either are still together or until the kids are older), how have your kids been affected?

7.  If you left, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex?  Would the situation have been better for your kids without the "two homes" thing?

It made them cry.  I don't know what the long-term impact might be.

8.  Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  Or think it was the right thing to do?  What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations? 

9.  If you are a man, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?

I see them about as much as I did before.  I have them every weekend.  I don't know where the "EOE" thing (every other weekend) came from but it seems stupid to me;  even if I am working long hours why can't I have them every weekend?  I would recommend that to dads who work full-time - at least have them with you every weekend.

[Glad2BeHere]

I'll bite too,

*although I already posted on this topic*

If I had to do it all over again... .

No No No. No way.

They say hindsight is foresight.

I hope this helps someone, somewhere.

G2BH

[Lincoln]

We have a 7 year old daughter and I have to say that she's absolutely the only reason I stay. 

I spoke to several lawyers and studied up on father's rights quite a bit as I was preparing to leave about five years ago.  The outlook I came away with was not good.

The fact that I have about a 0% chance of gaining primary custody, along with the threat of parental alienation and the brutality of the child support system holds me here.

If I could just leave and take her with me as primary parent, I'd do it first thing tomorrow.

[LEO]

wBPD wife in her joint custody has manage to turn my son against me OUCH.for the first time he has cussed me and made life hell all week,shes out of town on another pretend honeymoon i could care less.Hes mean remarks sound like his mother.Ive had to miss three days work dealing with him.from sweet kid to a mean spirited ,hateful kid?get youre child away from the BPD as soon as possible       .ps when he came home from being born she gave me the job of raising him i never spanked him or even yelled at him he was a great kid.now hes a little nightmare.OUCH The one thing i asked her not to do she did the gloves are coming off now im going to legally use the info to bring her down.I could have all along but didnt gloves are off.

[Mr. M]

1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute?

Of course not (assuming children).  Many factors weigh on that decision - the gender of the non, the expected custody time you would hope to have with the children, the adjustments that would need to be made financially, the cost of doing so... .the collateral damage (friends, family, employment impact).  So many things.  If children are not involved, I think that the decision, while not absolute, is much much easier.

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a BPD/NPD parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?

I'm not qualified to say.  Regardless of mental health issues, a household without love between the parents, with violence, without care and compassion, without rules and boundaries... .will invariably end up negatively impacting the children.

3.  Who here has "stayed for the kids" and believes they made the right decision?

I did (for a while) and I can't second-guess my decision.  Ultimately, she's the one who pulled the plug.  I stayed for "selfish" reasons (term used loosely).  I knew, as a male and father, that the likelihood of having a major share, even an equal share, of custody would be tough to obtain (given all of the surrounding circumstances, details of which aren't necessary to re-divulge here).  Over time, I really became indifferent to her existence in the home and focused my energies towards my children.  I served as that "buffer" that many of us all try to be in these circumstances.  For the most part, it worked.  Also, for the most part, my expectations in terms of custody time were correct, too.  It took 3+ years and my life's savings just to get to the point I am today... .50/50 - and the madness will not soon end.

I can certainly tell you that had *I* decided to pull the plug much earlier, it probably would have cost significantly less and I would have made fewer poor decisions that came with managing the household under those circumstances.

4.  Who here "stayed for the kids" and wishes he/she would not have?

I don't know what would have happened... .only guesses.  I do feel that I "wasted" more years investing in getting the marriage righted, but most of those years I was unaware of what BPD was/is and that my efforts were futile.

5.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)... .  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?

It was absolutely the right decision because the BPD would have ultimately continued her escalations which, in an extreme case (and we've seen several here on the forums) - could have left disastrous results for me (and the children) had I been left in a position for those things to possibly occur.

6.  If you stayed (either are still together or until the kids are older), how have your kids been affected?

N/A

7.  If you left, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex?  Would the situation have been better for your kids without the "two homes" thing?

Well, they're subjected to two different parenting styles.  That's a problem because they understand the expectations in one home (with care, discipline, and love) and no well-defined expectations in the other (little discipline, if any, and a mom who buys their love and still rages inappropriately when faced with stressful situations).

Yes, I think that they've been harmed because as they get older, they're aware that things "aren't good" between us and that must be quite sad for children who want nothing more than to be with two parents who love and care for one another.  There is a profound sense of failure or gloom associated with "knowing" that the people who brought you into this world really don't like each other very much.

No, I don't think that the situation would have been better without the "two-homes" thing because that would mean that the two parents are still together under atrocious circumstances... .and no matter how much you think you're "managing" the situation appropriately - the situation is not appropriate and still is atrocious.

8.  Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  Or think it was the right thing to do?  What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations?

Staying in a horrible situation gives you the "opportunity" to:

- Grow up in a horrible situation.

- Learn how not to treat people you are supposed to love and care about.

- Fails to put them in a position to learn how a "normal," loving relationship is supposed to work.

Those are life lessons that are hard to teach later in life and (in my opinion) - you are setting them up for failures (to varying degrees) in relationships later in life.

While it won't be a lot easier having left - you are in a better position to teach them the right stuff.

9.  If you are a man, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?

Yes.  Because the family court system remains horribly biased against men/fathers - and you leave knowing the deck is stacked against you.  If you choose to escape this horrible relationship for the benefit of you and your children - you do so knowing that you have an incredibly difficult fight on your hands to spend meaningful time with your children and putting them in a position to learn about how to treat others.  You fear you're a failure because you know that there is an inherent risk that they will have to spend MORE time ALONE with a person you find to be a horrible person and with little hope that there are ways out there to see her get healthy.

Probably the worst thing I heard in the aftermath of our split was If she's so horrible, why would you leave your kids with her? ... .even from some in my own family.

That's the price paid by the BPD's inate ability to manage their "public/private personna."

[diamondjim]

Mr M,

I read your answers to the questions and look at question 3 you could almost be me for those first few sentences with respect your relationship with your ex-wife and your kids.  My BPD wife left me and the kids last night to "try and sort herself out" ... .and she is getting help from a psychiatrist.  I sincerely dont know if I will want her back as talking to my counsellor has shown me how abused I have been emotionally and now i can see if happening to my eldest son.  Thank you for your post it helps me a lot

[Mr. M]

I was asked by a concerned citizen to post some experiences for a certain other unnamed poster.

I have a particularly difficult time reading the threads in this forum because after everything I've gone through, I have a near-zero tolerance for those of you who have no idea what you're in for and who remain stuck in limbo.

It isn't fair to anyone who posts here but I'm making a very, very concerted effort to remember that we're all in different places.  I get so frustrated for the undecided posters because I am so truly sympathetic, but all I want to do is SCREAM "RUN!  RUN FROM HIM/HER AS FAST AS YOU CAN AND DON'T LOOK BACK!" - but I have the benefit of 2+ years here and a great deal more understanding than many newbies currently have.

I have to be very careful in this forum because I want to shake the life out of some of the posters... .but only because I really do care and don't want to see anyone suffer at the hands of a horrifying BPD partner.

--------------

Addressing your situation specifically - this is where I usually cross the ill-defined line and say "file for divorce, she isn't going to change EVER" if you truly believe she has BPD.  File now for divorce.  File now for custody.  Don't let her figure out that she has the upper-hand in everything and file first on you!

But I don't know if that's the right answer.

What I can tell you is that after 10-years of what was truly a mostly horrible relationship - and despite all the struggles I've had over the last 3+ years and will continue to have - I realize that I wasted a lot of time and "good life."  I've been fortunate enough to reconnect with friends and some family.  I've been fortunate enough to find real love after swearing off women for good not more than 4 years ago.  Despite all of the struggles, some of which rear their ugly head as often as weekly with that Psycho - my life is better off and we're (mmm and I) managing out family pretty darned well given all we've been through.

I KNOW I should have bailed years earlier... .and hindsight being what it is... .should have bailed on the relationship before it ever became a marriage and children.

[NewLifeforHGG]

Mr M,

This is why I want to tell people without children to chalk it up as a life lesson and move on and don't look back. Like that story in the Bible where the woman turns into a pillar of salt.

My dtr was becoming a different child and I knew I needed to get her out of that house.

His first visitation is coming up. We will see. I wish none of this was happening. I should have left while I was still in my 20s. My dtr was a toddler but we could have made it. I could have remarried and had more children but I had cancer so that is impossible now. In the end you lose so much.It is bad enough I have to suffer the consequences but watching my dtr have to absorb some of the toxic mess is really hard. She is a sweet child who deserved better.

[Lincoln]

New life-

If you had to leave your daughter behind, would have done that?

This is a very different question for women and men.

[Bananahead289]

I stayed married for 25 years.  I overlooked a lot.  I lost myself, became somebody that my kids weren't proud of.  The last few years of married life were dead. He was struggling, but would not accept help, until he turned on me in a vicious manner about 8 months before I finally made him leave.  My girls were older, 19 and 15-16. They tell me know they saw things so clearly and their own mom could not.  Ex turned against all of us, attacking us, doing everything in his power to destroy us.  Now, 1 1/2 years after the divorce and coming up on 3 years after the initial blow-up, my kids are doing fantastically.  If I had stayed, their lives would have been much worse, both emotionally and financially.  My younger D told me she would have run away rather than live with her dad anymore so I would have totally lost her.  Now she's working and about to graduate from a paramedic program.  Older D graduated with her B.A. and is working at a great job. But most proudly, they have boyfriends who treat them with honor and respect, don't belittle them or make them feel inferior. 

I was NOT a good role model to them as far as relationships go.   I'm still trying to fix my life, both financially and emotionally, from years of damage that I couldn't, heck, I WOULDN'T see.  And I'm with Mr. M - I have a lot of intolerance for those who stay.  I wish those who are struggling could spend one hour in the future free of BPD influence.  That might make the decision much easier. I know when I decided to break free, it was HORRIBLE - I didn't know how I could make it, if I could make it. But now since I'm out of Oz, it's amazing, as my therapist used to say, "how little I accepted for myself", just to say I was married. 

[Major_Dad]

Being a father severely limits your options. I have stayed because I feared losing custody and having the kids banished to her nightmare without me being there to provide emotional support and some level of defense. "Mother always wins in divorce " was the mantra I heard over and over from my uBPDW. Noe that the youngest is going to be a teen, the balance of power is starting to tip!

[exhaustedw2]

I would never leave my kids.  I stuck it out for 16 years and like M-Dad, the balance of power has tiped!  I will no longer allow myself to be treated with such disrespect.  I am going to be the role model I need to be for my boys.  Spoke with my attorney yesterday and at 13YO my oldest can file a preference that is accepted 90% by the court.  We shall see how he does.  He may feel guilty about leaving his mom.  He may be relieved.  She paints black and he is seeing the bp-BS clearly.  I am clear today, but I still have times of "Am I doing the right thing?"  Exhausted

[Mr. M]

I am clear today, but I still have times of "Am I doing the right thing?"  Exhausted

Of course you'll have that.  No one gets into a marriage planning on having kids and then getting a divorce.  You'll second-guess yourself a lot, but rest assured, this place is full of evidence that people "did the right thing" - both for themselves and their children.

[ForeverDad]

In life many decisions are not final ones.  For example, if we're cooking supper and the fresh peas and carrots burn, do we still serve them or do we make a subsequent decision to pull out a can of peas, beans, corn or whatever as alternative to serving the ruined food?  Same goes for a decision to stay or leave.

If we decide to stay, can we, will we, monitor that decision going forward so that if circumstances change for the worse that we can and will take appropriate action?  Remember, life with a Borderline spouse is, to varying degrees, intensely unpredictable, inconsistent, unbalanced, pressuring, manipulative and volatile.

"Staying" is generally a fluid decision, you have the right and obligation to review that decision if anything doesn't improve sufficiently or changes for the worse.

Thank you for your words.  I needed to hear that options *do* exist.  I have no plans on not staying, but it's nice to be reassured that I'm not boxed-in for as far as the eye can see... .and beyond.

[JoannaK]

This is an older thread, but this topic comes up over and over. 

[Newstart08]

1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute?

My decision was absolute.  It had to be.  I spent a year in therapy before making the decision b/c otherwise I would have been guilted right back into the relationship.

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a BPD/NPD parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook? I am tired of the statistics.  There was no way that my daughters were going to continue to grow up in that household on a day to day basis.  No way that they were going to see mom being treated as "less than".



5.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)... .  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?

My oldest is seeing a therapist for anxiety. But she's a gifted kid and that tends to be par for the course.  My youngest was 1 when I left and is pretty resilient.  Absolutely no regrets.


7.  If you left, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex?  Would the situation have been better for your kids without the "two homes" thing?

Yes, I do my best to keep them out of it but he continues to draw them in. Child study expert has commented that they are being traumatized by the constant court battles and discussions about grown up issues.  The trauma they were experiencing before I left was far greater. 

8.  Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  Or think it was the right thing to do?  What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations? 

Give your kids an example of peace in their lives even if it is only every other weekend.

 

[tryingsome]

This is an old topic, and since I am going through a similar dilemma I thought I would answer.

Before I get to the bulleted questions, I thought I would give a case of two live 'case studies'

Me: I didn't grow up in a great household. The dynamics between my two parents are pretty much a BPD/NPD combo.

I am not going to label it, but raging of my mother and a lot of that unconscious manipulation is still there.

They stuck it out, and well at least till my younger sister graduated. (I had already graduated from college).

From my perspective both my sister and I, don't have that rage. We probably both ended up a little codependent and have issues.

But we are both courteous and respectful (if not overly so) to other people.

The Wife: Her household was about the same. Lots of fighting, arguing, cheating between the parents.

Temperament wise I would say their parents were very close. The difference here is they got a divorce around age 3 for her.

As an adult, she is full of anger, has tons of abandonment issues, failed relationships, etc.

So if I look at this at face value. When a spouse leaves they are doing it for themselves (their own health).

That is admirable. But I think, we undermine that our happiness rubs off on our kids. From what I seen on first hand experience that does not seem to be the case.

That is the dilemma I am in. I don't want my kids (ages 3 and 4) to be full of anger because I left. It's like choosing the lesser of two evils. That is a hard decision.

1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute?

No.

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a BPD/NPD parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?

No. Though we would like to believe it so. Unless the kids are being abused directly (physically or emotionally). Usually they are spectators, so I would say no.

3.  Who here has "stayed for the kids" and believes they made the right decision?

I am leaning this way, do to the statements listed above.

6.  If you stayed (either are still together or until the kids are older), how have your kids been affected?

Their angry outbursts, fears of abandonment seems less when we are together even though the parents fight.

Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  Or think it was the right thing to do?  What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations?

9.  If you are a man, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?

No, they are two separate items.

[JQ]

Hello Group,

I don't have kids, but I thought I would add my 2 cents from my personal experiences for additional food for thought ... .



1.  Is the decision to stay or leave ever absolute?

N/A

2.  There have been studies that show that kids who grow up in divorced homes have more problems in life than kids whose parents stay together.  Would having a BPD/NPD parent (or other abusive parent) change this outlook?

IMHO, my mother is a BPD/NPD & father was absent alcoholic who died before the age of 50. Growing up with my mothers flying monkey's that would rage every other day was beyond what a child should be subject too.  They would argue at least once every couple of months about divorce for the 20 plus years they were married before my father died. As the oldest I would try to protect my siblings from the flying monkey's that my mother would let fly at twice a week. The house I grew up in was COMPLETELY DYSFUNCTIONAL and never ever showed me what a mutually respectful relationship between two people should be. Instead i saw rages, hate, deregulation, along with ALL the other behavior.  Because of this I grew up as a codependent and have had my own bad relationships in the past. Only after the last one where I learned when she told me she was  BPD and dove into my life and found out what I was ... .that & hours of therapy, education, reading. NOTHING good can come from raising kids in this environment. MY exBPDgf  has been divorced now for 4 yrs ... .her ex-husband recognized that the example of that relationship isn't what he wants his girls to know ... .he is now engaged to a wonderful woman with 2 kids of her own. They are setting the example of what a blended family should be and I commend him for being man enough to leave and provide his 2 kids a environment that they can actually learn what a normal relationship is suppose to be.

3.  Who here has "stayed for the kids" and believes they made the right decision?

Never stay for the kinds IMHO, kids are smarter then you give them credit and they learn, they know that you're not in a healthy relationship ... .but they also learn from example and you have to ask yourself is this the type of example I want my kids to learn?

6.  If you stayed (either are still together or until the kids are older), how have your kids been affected?

I'll will be forever the recovering codependent ... .I have spent hours in therapy ... .hours reading, learning. I have spend thousands of dollars trying to make a BPD/NPD vs codependent relationship work with NO success. I know I'm not the only one that has lived this ... .stop the madness if not for yourself ... .for your kids 

4.  Who here "stayed for the kids" and wishes he/she would not have?

5.  How has divorce affected your kids (if you left)... .  and do you regret it?  Or do you think it was the right decision?

I can't tell you how many times I wish my parents would divorce ... .at least the arguments would stopped

7.  If you left, do you think your kids have been harmed by the friction between you and the ex?  Would the situation have been better for your kids without the "two homes" thing?

AS tough as the 2 homes things is going back and forth for custody reasons, I saw how they were much happier with their father & the new blended family. They were learning to be happy and what a loving couple can be like. No couple is perfect, but at least they would of been out of the mentally / physically draining relationship of a BPD.  Imagine how it would affect your kids if you didn't. Would you be ok with your kids becoming codependent and perpetuating the situation that you're going through? 

8.  Regardless of whether you stayed or left, if your kids are teenagers or older, do you regret your decision?  Or think it was the right thing to do?  What advice would you give other parents (with younger kids) in similar situations?

Having lived the life first hand ... .I'm north of 50 and still dealing with my BPD mother ... .and the side affects of growing up in that house is a constant reminder of how a relationship is NOT suppose to work.

9.  If you are a man, do you believe that leaving your marriage means leaving your kids?

As I pointed out before, my exBPDgf ex-husband is providing a much more stable home for 2 weeks out of every month instead of the constant chaos their mother provides almost on a daily basis. I've seen her release her flying monkey's on her kids and because I've been told I'm not their father I have no business giving my opinion how she raises her kids ... .I can say at least their father is providing some sort of normalcy for 1/2 the month and that's better then nothing.

[ForeverDad]

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  In other words, do you want them to seek out or drift into relationships with someone appeasing or targeted — or someone like your spouse?  It may not be their comfort zone but staying together means it's all they would have known.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.