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Author Topic: When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong - Roger Melton, M.A.  (Read 3489 times)
elphaba
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« on: December 11, 2007, 07:01:10 AM »

I know I've seen this on here before, know I've quoted it to people before, but, wanted to make sure it made it somewhere easy to find... .there was so much in these articles that I related to, so much explained and put into words that I could not.

The Articles on Romeo's Bleeding cover many forms of emotional and/or physical abuse, including information on being involved with a borderline... .

Here is the link:  www.obgyn.net/young-woman/young-woman.asp?page=/yw/articles/RomeosBleeding_TOC

Here is an exerpt on the section regarding borderlines:

Regardless of how a Controller with a Borderline Personality Disorder can alter and tailor his appearance to deceive others, he still presents with a clear and characteristic personality pattern. This pattern usually emerges in three stages or roles: Vulnerable Seducer, Clinger and Hater. These stages cycle and often swing wildly from one role to the next, but through drawing a picture of how these stages appear, a basic portrait can be loaded into your developing Controller-detection-system.

At first, a Borderline male may appear shy, vulnerable or "ambivalently in need of care." This is the first clue: beware of men who feel like lost puppies. If you experience an urge to take him home and feed him, don't- especially if you are in an emotionally needy state. But if you can't stop yourself, then avoid a future feeding frenzy on your soul by making a careful scan for the following reactions and characteristics as you enter this spirit-eater's lair.

In the beginning, you will feel a rapidly accelerating sense of compassion for whatever painful plight he has gotten himself into, because he is a master at portraying himself as the "victim of circumstance." But listen closely to how he sees himself as a victim. As his peculiar emotional invasion advances upon you, you will hear how no one understands him - except you. Other people have always left him because of their "insensitivity." He is always being betrayed, just when he starts trusting people. But there is something "special" about you, because "you really know me."

It is this intense way he has of bearing down on you emotionally that can feel very seductive. You will feel elevated, adored - almost worshiped. And you will feel that way quickly. It may seem like a great deal has happened between the two of you in a short period of time, because every conversation is so intense, and his attention is so focused on you. But if you're paying attention , you will feel his adoration by the third date, or sooner. Initially, it feels like an invisible army of sweet, chocolate ants is subtly infiltrating you. But the invasion may be hard to notice because it feels good, just as the Trojans must have felt good when they towed the Trojan Horse into their city, only to discover it filled with Greek Berserkers bent on destruction and conquest. Heed the warning that Cassandra gave to Troy's King Priam; "Fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts." But it's difficult to say no to a gift from the gods, especially if you have already tapped one too many dry relationship-wells.

Here is a man who may look like a dream come true. He not only seems to make you the center of his attention, but he even craves listening to your opinions, thoughts and ideas. If you have never experienced a man treating you like this before, it can seem like you have really found your heart's desire. But like anything that seems too good to be true, it usually is. While you may think you're about to enjoy the tasty pleasures of a Mr. Goodbar, Mr. Goodbar is about to take more than a taste out of you. And borderline men emotionally eat their women whole.

Once he has successfully candied his hook with adoration, he will weld it into place by reeling in your attention and concern. His intense interest in you subtly transforms. He still appears to be interested in you, but no longer in what you are interested in. His interest becomes your exclusive interest in him. This is when things begin to feel "uncomfortable." Your thoughts, feelings and ideas fascinate him, but only when they focus on his problems. You can tell when this happens because you can feel him "perk-up" emotionally whenever your attention focuses upon his feelings and conflicts. Those moments can emotionally hook your compassion more deeply into him, because that is when he will treat you well - even tenderly. That's why, if you confuse pity with love, you'll believe you're in love with him. Especially if your maternal instinct is strong and rescuing is at the heart of your "motherly code." Following that code results in the most common excuse I hear as a therapist, as to why many women stay with borderline men, "... .But I love him!" Adult love is built on mutual interest, care and respect - not on one-way rescues. And mothering is for kids. Not grown men.

The world ails him. Physical complaints are common. His back hurts. His head aches . Peculiar pains of all sorts come and go like invisible, malignant companions. If you track their appearance, though, you may see a pattern of occurrence connected to the waning or waxing of your attentions. His complaints are ways of saying, "don't leave me. Save me!" And his maladies are not simply physical. His feelings ail him too.

He is depressed or anxious, detached and indifferent or vulnerable and hypersensitive. He can swing from elated agitation to mournful gloom at the blink of an eye. Watching the erratic changes in his moods is like tracking the needle on a Richter-scale chart at the site of an active volcano, and you never know which flick of the needle will predict the big explosion.

But after every emotional Vesuvius he pleads for your mercy. And if he has imbedded his guilt-hooks deep enough into your conscientious nature, you will stay around and continue tracking this volcanic earthquake, caught in the illusion that you can discover how to stop Vesuvius before he blows again. But, in reality, staying around this cauldron of emotional unpredictability is pointless. Every effort to understand or help this type of man is an excruciatingly pointless exercise in emotional rescue.

It is like you are a Coast Guard cutter and he is a drowning man. But he drowns in a peculiar way. Every time you pull him out of the turbulent sea, feed him warm tea  and biscuits, wrap him in a comfy blanket and tell him everything is okay, he suddenly jumps overboard and starts pleading for help again. And no matter how many times you rush to the emotional - rescue, he still keeps jumping back into trouble. It is this repeating, endlessly frustrating pattern which should confirm to you that you are involved with a Borderline Personality Disorder. No matter how effective you are at helping him, nothing is ever enough. No physical, financial or emotional assistance ever seems to make any lasting difference. It's like pouring the best of your self into a galactic-sized Psychological Black Hole of bottomless emotional hunger. And if you keep pouring it in long enough, one-day you'll fall right down that hole yourself. There will be nothing left of you but your own shadow, just as it falls through his predatory "event horizon." But before that happens, other signs will reveal his true colors.




What gives this rage its characteristically borderline flavor is that it is very difficult for someone witnessing it to know what triggered it in reality. But that is its primary identifying clue: the actual rage-trigger is difficult for you to see. But in the Borderline's mind it always seems to be very clear. To him, there is always a cause. And the cause is always you. Whether it is the tone of your voice, how you think, how you feel, dress, move or breathe - or "the way you're looking at me," - he will always justify his rage by blaming you for "having to hurt you."

Rage reactions are also unpredictable and unexpected. They happen when you least expect it. And they can become extremely dangerous.

If a Controller is solely Borderline, his rages may remain verbal. You might be ducking a lot of dishes, glasses and other breakables, or the occasional airborne  frying pan or flying cutlery set. But do not deceive yourself into believing that he is not directly aiming any of these missiles at you. Sooner or later one of them will "just happen" to hit you-or the kids, the cat or dog. And his excuse will be, "It was an accident," or "I didn't mean to hit you," or the ever-classic "Why didn't you duck?" - Not, "Why do I act so insane?"

With a Borderline, there is also the danger that one of these rages will precipitate or be precipitated by a temporary or long-lasting psychotic break. If this happens, a scattered state of rage may instantly become a precisely aimed attack, with you fixed in the cross-hairs.

If you sense any explosion coming, or one has already begun, leave. Do not try to "reason" him out of it. Immediately grab the kids, cats and dogs and get out now. Don't worry about what the neighbors or anyone else will think if he chases you outside. "Witness statements" to the police can help if you need to file a restraining order.

While there is never a guarantee that a solely borderline Controller will become physically violent or not, they will always become verbally, emotionally and psychologically abusive. Just keep one simple fact always in mind, regardless of whether a Controller is borderline, narcissistic, sociopathic or sadistic: Whenever any of them are criticizing characteristics in you, they are making autobiographical statements about themselves.

Blame is their way of unloading their character defects onto you. Listen closely to the hateful things they say to you about you. You are listening to verbatim descriptions of their character defects. This is extremely important to remember, especially in the midst of verbal attack. These are the only moments when you will hear the truth about the man who lies concealed behind the steel wall of his personality disorder. But never point that fact out to him. If you do, it may be the last time you see him alive. But not because you're still around to know he's not dead.



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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2007, 08:08:40 AM »

Once he has successfully candied his hook with adoration, he will weld it into place by reeling in your attention and concern. His intense interest in you subtly transforms. He still appears to be interested in you, but no longer in what you are interested in. His interest becomes your exclusive interest in him. This is when things begin to feel "uncomfortable." Your thoughts, feelings and ideas fascinate him, but only when they focus on his problems. You can tell when this happens because you can feel him "perk-up" emotionally whenever your attention focuses upon his feelings and conflicts. Those moments can emotionally hook your compassion more deeply into him, because that is when he will treat you well - even tenderly. That's why, if you confuse pity with love, you'll believe you're in love with him. Especially if your maternal instinct is strong and rescuing is at the heart of your "motherly code." Following that code results in the most common excuse I hear as a therapist, as to why many women stay with borderline men, "... .But I love him!" Adult love is built on mutual interest, care and respect - not on one-way rescues. And mothering is for kids. Not grown men.

This is uncanny.  This is how it was for me.  This was me a year ago.

But after every emotional Vesuvius he pleads for your mercy. And if he has imbedded his guilt-hooks deep enough into your conscientious nature, you will stay around and continue tracking this volcanic earthquake, caught in the illusion that you can discover how to stop Vesuvius before he blows again.

Yep, this is how I spent the last 3 years of my life.

Just keep one simple fact always in mind, regardless of whether a Controller is borderline, narcissistic, sociopathic or sadistic: Whenever any of them are criticizing characteristics in you, they are making autobiographical statements about themselves.

Blame is their way of unloading their character defects onto you. Listen closely to the hateful things they say to you about you. You are listening to verbatim descriptions of their character defects. This is extremely important to remember, especially in the midst of verbal attack. These are the only moments when you will hear the truth about the man who lies concealed behind the steel wall of his personality disorder.

He could not take responsibility for ANYTHING.  He lied when it would have been just as easy to tell the truth.  And his lies always made HIM look good in some way... ."had to spend time with friend whose wife was dying of cancer, had to talk to cousin whose partner was in an accident, had to go in to work for something really important".

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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2007, 09:26:07 AM »



At first, a Borderline male may appear shy, vulnerable or "ambivalently in need of care." This is the first clue: beware of men who feel like lost puppies.

He was so shy, sweet and in need of love, support and understanding.

In the beginning, you will feel a rapidly accelerating sense of compassion for whatever painful plight he has gotten himself into, because he is a master at portraying himself as the "victim of circumstance." But listen closely to how he sees himself as a victim. As his peculiar emotional invasion advances upon you, you will hear how no one understands him - except you. Other people have always left him because of their "insensitivity." He is always being betrayed, just when he starts trusting people. But there is something "special" about you, because "you really know me."

His ex’s all cheated on him and his first wife drove away all his friends. He always felt like a stranger around his family.

It may seem like a great deal has happened between the two of you in a short period of time, because every conversation is so intense, and his attention is so focused on you. But if you're paying attention , you will feel his adoration by the third date, or sooner. Initially, it feels like an invisible army of sweet, chocolate ants is subtly infiltrating you. But the invasion may be hard to notice because it feels good…



Everything was all about me – what I want, where I want to go, what I want to do, sending me flowers, romance. Things I had never had done for me, he did. I am a large woman and not someone men noticed. He made me feel beautiful for the first time in my life.

Here is a man who may look like a dream come true. He not only seems to make you the center of his attention, but he even craves listening to your opinions, thoughts and ideas. If you have never experienced a man treating you like this before, it can seem like you have really found your heart's desire.

We were ‘soul mates’ who just HAD to be together. We were made for each other. He was my white knight.

His interest becomes your exclusive interest in him. This is when things begin to feel "uncomfortable." Your thoughts, feelings and ideas fascinate him, but only when they focus on his problems. You can tell when this happens because you can feel him "perk-up" emotionally whenever your attention focuses upon his feelings and conflicts. Those moments can emotionally hook your compassion more deeply into him, because that is when he will treat you well - even tenderly.



It made him so happy when I did things for him or with him. When he was the underdog, I championed him and tried to bolster his self-esteem.

Physical complaints are common. His back hurts. His head aches . Peculiar pains of all sorts come and go like invisible, malignant companions. If you track their appearance, though, you may see a pattern of occurrence connected to the waning or waxing of your attentions.

I never made a connecting with the ailments and BPD. But looking back, I can see times when I was focusing my attention on my children or friends. Almost every time, he ended up with a splitting headache, hurt his shoulder at work, twisted his ankle. At Thanksgiving he said he was sick. We were going to my mothers. I think now that he expected me to cancel and stay with him. He got very pissy when I went without him.

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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2007, 09:39:30 AM »

YUP... .Chilli - sounds just like DB... .

Excerpt
He always felt like a stranger around his family.

When he was the underdog, I championed him and tried to bolster his self-esteem.



Excerpt
He got very pissy



Funny that you use that word, rarely heard it is how I described him all the time... .pissy-boy... .

poor baby, so misunderstood... .so sweet, shy, loving... .slowly morphing into the monster I divorced... .quickly finding a new victim and using me as his example of how hurt he had been... .she too fell for it, hook, line and sinker and will find it all out on her own, just as I did... .

so many things in these articles that I related to, so much explained... .so many things that are just spot on to what I went thru... .truly remarkable the similarities and MAN, I wish I'd seen this article a long darn time ago... .but, at least I am prepared to recognize it all now... .stiff price that I paid though with 11 years of my life.
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2007, 09:53:29 AM »

I just wanted to give this a bump.

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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2007, 10:20:56 AM »

poor baby, so misunderstood... .so sweet, shy, loving... .slowly morphing into the monster I divorced... .quickly finding a new victim and using me as his example of how hurt he had been... .she too fell for it, hook, line and sinker and will find it all out on her own, just as I did... .

I think we should all go to this site - www.dontdatehimgirl.com/ - and list our BPDs. (At least the males!)
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 11:56:30 AM »

This is an incredible article series with so many back stories - as always, thanks for posting elphie!

This article was the first article on our website, reworked with the protagonist being female (as 75% of BPD is female, and the original male version was already prominent on the Internet).

https://bpdfamily.com/tools/articles.htm

This is the number one read article on the OB-GYN.net Web site.  It is also the number one read article on our Web site - it had 227,891 reads this year.  It is also the number 1 critiqued article on our site - we have thousands of responses -  and the critiques are really eye opening. 

People love it and people hate it... .ironic that an article on BPD would, itself, would be black or white.

So many readers see this as the definition of a high functioning adult BPD.  And the concept of the phases pieces together, for many, a relationship of paradoxes... .according to the readers, it answers the "why so wonderful" and "why so bad" question better than other things they have read. 

We have hundreds of responses confirming the existence of these phases. 

But there are negative critics of this article too.  It draws more negative comments than anything we've published, by far. 

The main criticism... .the implied intent.  Many readers read into the story that the BPD is maliciously, and premeditatedly staging the Seducer, and Clinger phases... .which, we know is not the case. 

Melton also takes criticism as being a biased scorned lover because of the hyperbole. This is unfortunate, because some can't see past this to get the basic message - I've conversed with quite a few - and when you get past the language - they too are impressed with his insight.

And lastly, this article has drawn fire from individuals with BPD as bashing.  As with every article, we have offered sidebar space to anyone that would like to make a responsible counterpoint - several have agreed to take on the task and maybe we will have a counterpoint someday.

Mr. Melton, himself, has been involved in the psychological impact of violence, dealing with exploitive-type men or women and managing the dangers of high-stress careers and occupations. He has been counsel for emergency responders in LA. He has appeared on television and radio, including appearances on 20/20 and PBS. As part of the US opening relations with the Soviet Union in 1989, he participated in mutual training programs at Moscow University. 

We had hoped to commission an article with Mr. Melton, but he has retired due to health related issues.

Anyway, I thought I share this "never a dull moment" story.  By the way, this is one installation in a six part series - so there is more - the links are on our Web site following the article.

It helped me greatly in my recovery, to understand what was happening in my relationship.

Skippy
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2007, 12:10:00 PM »

Excerpt
The main criticism... .the implied intent.  Many readers read into the story that the BPD is maliciously, and premeditatedly staging the Seducer, and Clinger phases

I think while people (nons) especially while they are still in an anger phase they can see it as being malicious/premeditated... .but, ultimately most nons learn that it is simply part of the nature of the illness (not that that is any kind of excuse in anyway).  For those nons who are committed to staying and working on things, they want so much to see this as an illness, to have pity for what the BPD in their lives is feeling, to see it as something that is not deliberate.  They simply can't or don't want to believe that anyone they love would deliberately hurt them... .but, at some point... .they (the BPD/NPD) truly are deliberate in their actions.

Although much of a BPD's behaviors can seem malicous and definately feels that way, especially when the non is clearly hurt and the BPD continues the behavior... .Even clear boundaries do not seem to deter many BPD's from continuing thier reign of terror... .and although yes, it is an illness, many BPD's can clearly control the behaviors/symptoms around other people, it is only the closest people to them who continue to be abused... .

The untreated BPD, unwilling to get help should ABSOLUTELY be held accountable for their behaviors... .they DO know when they are hurting someone... .they DO understand that their behavior is damaging... .if they don't get help... .it is deliberate/malicous/premeditated... .hurtful.

Intent aside... .the result for the non is the same... .alot of hurt.
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2007, 12:36:01 PM »

Great thread... .and very well said, elphie.

Thanks!
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2007, 01:13:51 PM »

scary.  and so true... .gave me chills and flashbacks...
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2007, 06:13:50 AM »

It is like you are a Coast Guard cutter and he is a drowning man. But he drowns in a peculiar way. Every time you pull him out of the turbulent sea, feed him warm tea  and biscuits, wrap him in a comfy blanket and tell him everything is okay, he suddenly jumps overboard and starts pleading for help again. And no matter how many times you rush to the emotional - rescue, he still keeps jumping back into trouble. It is this repeating, endlessly frustrating pattern which should confirm to you that you are involved with a Borderline Personality Disorder.

Besides the whole article being a verbatim recount of my relationship with my exuBPDbf, THIS is the part that I think oftentimes goes so unnoticed, and is SO important. They jump back into the water themselves, over and over again. They are unsavable and they keep recreating their own misery, compulsively.
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2007, 06:23:57 AM »

This dear schnitzel is one of the most bizzare aspects of the illness... .they do create their own misery, I used to say that DB wanted to be unhappy because that is how he identified his sense of self (even before I knew about BPD)

Also one of the most important things a non can finally see... .that it is not us creating misery, not us that is not doing enough to save them... .as nons we so want to help ease their pain... .but, we absolutely cannot, they will just create new pain for themselves.

Sad... .but, that is the reality.
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2007, 09:01:18 AM »

This is the true definition of masochism. They dont want to be saved- they NEED that feeling of suffering. And it is such a compulsion for them, that they have the hardest time stopping this desperate, twisted addiction. Think of the implications for therapy! It is most likely what also makes healing from this disorder so very very hard. Because to heal would mean to be saved- and they can`t let that happen. They most likely feel the need to sabotage any success that they achieve with a therapist.

And honestly - I find that one of the most disturbing aspects of the whole disorder.
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2008, 06:01:55 PM »

It's just so scary how they are so alike... .reading this article was like reading about my X... .like they met him, knew him, and were writing specifically about him... .

It's so hard realizing that he was *NEVER* the person that I originally thought that he was... .that it was all an act... .and that I really don't know who he is, underneath all of the acting and all of the personality problems and rages... .who is he REALLY? I sure as hell don't know if he doesn't... .

Oh, the bad memories of ducking those darned dishes... .:'( And how about the bowls, chairs, and other flying objects, as well?

And the whole thing about him drowning... .gosh, that was so true... .it was like Groundhog's day... .he'd cry himself to sleep every night, and I'd be holding him... .literally, holding him and comforting him, like a mom might do to a baby (and actually, I'm a preschool teacher, so I do do this on a daily basis- TO TODDLERS, who he acted like often), and trying to reassure him that I loved him and so did other people... .and he'd be okay to finally fall asleep, but then the next day, it was the same thing ALL OVER AGAIN... .What a living hell... .why did I actually stick around for this! I'm sad for myself that I actually thought this was even remotely normal... .

Anytime things went wrong with his life, he needed me to hold him and comfort him at night and be there for him while he slept... .he even said this... .but if I ever needed this... .yeah, right... .

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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2008, 09:22:34 PM »

"But if too late has happened, and you are already involved with a Borderline Controller, you have experienced far more than the pinch of a small stone in your gut. You've been engulfed in an insane, hyper-emotional ride where spewing shts of scalding lava alternate with warm, soothing baths of emotional saccharine. Life itself will have become a series of whipsawing emotional extremes, between his clinging adoration and hateful spite. The hallmark of this pattern is that "just when things seem to be going well," and he is treating you best, he suddenly turns into a perverse version of Air Jordan and you're the ball. Slam-dunked would be a mild way of describing the receiving end of this intensely emotional pounding... .You did not respond "right" to his compliments, or scratched your nose in the midst of his adoration"

It must be some indication of my state of mind right now that I started to laugh when I read this - I guess I pictured myself as that ball in Air-Jordan's hands or something.  Its all becoming rather humourous as I stand at an emotional distance and look at our "performances" in the past (though there was nothing funny about it at the time, and there won't be if/when it happens again in the future.)

Honestly, my husband is not nearly as bad as the people described in this article - I've always called him a "BPD lite." But this paragraph - oh yeah baby - spot on!
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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2008, 03:47:56 PM »

I wanted to get some comments or input on this article and how true it can be. I think it is darn close
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« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2008, 08:23:08 PM »

Ok, so this article makes it all sound very strategic and planned - to paraphrase, "once she has you under her control the Hater emerges".  Their methods (especially sleep deprivation) sound like torture and torture is a planned, conscious act.  So, back to our old question, are they worthy of pity or compassion?  They often behave in pitiful ways, especially the low-functioning ones, but the high-functioners?  TOO much method to the madness.  And I swear I read somewhere in SWOE about how they are not really manipulative - set me straight if I'm wrong.  I still can't wrap my head around it.

I think I'm starting to ask more questions about verbal abuse and manipulation because while not currently in a relationship, I'd like one someday  and I'm starting to think more about what warning signs would scare me off, and what I would be willing to tolerate from a man.  I'm looking back and seeing that the abuse in my marriage wasn't exactly a stealth attack on second glance, but so many little things happened that took me by surprise, then I adapted and didn't put all the pieces together.

I guess I want to know how tolerant I should be in a future relationship - what's "just common man behavior"  or a personal quirk that can be dealt with, and what's a tactical offense in a war to own my soul... .
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« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2008, 08:50:09 PM »

Keep in mind the frog and the hot water analogy... .You jump out of immediate danger but you adapt to slow changes.

here is a very good article to think about

Don't let the title scare you though.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56157.0

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« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2008, 12:29:52 PM »



Ditto everyone else that this article describes Mr. Dark perfectly.

Thing is, if I had read this when I first started seeing him, I still would have made excuses or found some way to say no, that's not him, I'm just being sensitive. I would have found that one BP characteristic in the article that he hadn't displayed yet and thought wow that's rough for those who go through it-glad he's not that way! His problem is just that (fill in excuse here).  I really loved him that much and love really is blind. Of course, I was 20 whopping years old-not enough time in life to really see patterns and rhythms of things... .that I was getting sucked into a very sick and twisted world that would damage me forever.

My daughter is in a similar relationship. I am not a PsyD, so I can't diagnose, but he quacks an awful lot like a duck and his mom quacks enough for a whole flock. D is not ready to see and still has her blinders on. Not even seeing what I have gone through all these years has made a difference to her. "He's different" and "he will be okay once he gets away from his mom". UGH! Unlike my mother, I will be there for her with love (not blame or criticism or accusations of schizophrenia on her part) and do my best to support her getting her life back together-if she gets a chance to.  S1 and I had several discussions, and we both believe that it's not "if "but "when" he finally hits her. I will not comment on what will happen to this particular boyfriend if he does that. 
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2008, 09:10:26 PM »

Loved your post Robin.  The way you plan on supporting your daughter emotionally when she sees the light - the compassion you have learned from your own experience.  She is fortunate to have you as her mom.

There is not a lot of positives to having been with someone who has a personality disorder a long time, but I do think that is one thing we do get (hopefully) - compassion for others, the ability to judge no one until we have walked a mile in their shoes. 

As as for your plans for her boyfriend if he hits her - you go girl!
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« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2008, 09:08:24 AM »

Thank you for that Christy. I hope I am wrong about him and if so I will be more than  happy to post it in big bold italic typeface.

I don’t feel so compassionate really-just another mom scared for her “little girl” who isn’t so little anymore.

I’m all for educating the world about BPD and NPD and warning signs of abusive behavior, and this article was an excellent one for that. However, I doubt their effectiveness – especially in young people. After all, one of the biggest things many of us here have in common is that so many people close to us didn’t believe the things we said were happening in our lives. It’s sort of  like living in a small town and not believing  a heinous crime would ever happen in your little corner of the world.

Having been so young when I got caught up in all this makes me think not only the importance of educating  the general public about these types of personality disorders but specifically how we can educate the kids and maybe help them avoid this trap in their future. But, I’m not optimistic about the prospect of that being successful-despite MADD’s efforts too many people continue to drink, drive and kill others, and despite the DARE program, I’ve seen too many kids overdose and die on drugs. And, my daughter knows the truth about my situation, but that truth so sick and crazy that she thinks it couldn’t possibly happen to her.

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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2008, 08:35:09 AM »

I just read this article... .but I am withholding my opinion until I read what others have to say... .what do you all think?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves#review
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2008, 09:44:28 AM »

Most Non's who read this article, have stated that this is pretty much spot on as to how their relationship evolved with their BPD SO.  Many Borderlines who are in recovery and working on themselves have said the same... .if you read the sidebar from Oceanheart who is a recovering BPD it is extremely insightful and helpful for we non's to know how the BPD mind works.

But, please feel free to share your opinion, we are all entitled to our opinion after all... .
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« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2008, 09:55:03 AM »

I read this article from a different perspective. 

My bio mom is diagnosed BPD, and not actively working any type of recovery program.  I often saw my father, who was her first divorce, engage in behavior with her - rescuing, seduction, then volatile hostility and distance/rejection.  I think the article offers pespective on what my father engaged in, from his perspective. 

The article is useful to me in that I can examine how my parents were enmeshed and engaged.  I can take less personally the behavior of my parents, who engaged so intensely in their drama they often forgot I existed.

Molly
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« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2008, 11:52:50 AM »

I read it as a person who is the BPD in the relationship. It reads to me as though the person is saying that the BPD is not really capable of true love due to the way the illness works. I think someone should add some type of notes saying that just because the person is BPD does not mean that they are incapable of real love for the other person.

I have also run this across friends of mine who are not BPD without telling them what I think and they came to that conclusion without my help. One of them also stated " EVERY woman is capable of going through those phases, depending on her focus and intent. " I mean, yes, we are talking about BPD, but I can see people saying that their mate is borderline simply based on these behavioral patterns in a relationship.
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« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2008, 12:09:50 PM »

actually ... .

behaviors... and patterns dictate meeting critera...

love or masking love is a side effect
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« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2008, 12:26:00 PM »

but just because a person displays those criteria does not necessarily make them a borderline. they could just be conniving.
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« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2008, 12:29:44 PM »

I would agree.  The article seems to make those conclusions.

Personally I don't think someone with BPD is incapable of feeling and expressing love.  HOWEVER, I would argue that the person with BPD's interpretation of what love is, can be very different and in some cases incompatible with what a nonBPD's expectation and experience of what love is.

Part of the problem is, how to define love.  Love is different things for different people, granted.

But read the forums, there are vast examples of people with BPD falling out of love just as quickly as they fall into love.  And the end result is the non is completely shocked and numbed by the (relative to the non) whirlwind changes.  For non, there is a lot more love "inertia," they can't change their attachments that quickly.  And the reasons are because people BPD don't have some of faculties available to them that nons have.

For example, lack of object constancy.  For a non, in a BPD relationship that just ended, they still have residual feelings, in many cases, still very intense feelings for their former BPD partner.  However, IMHO, for people with BPD, those feelings can be gone.  The way some people (ie, me) interpret this behavior is that as long as the BPD doesn't NEED you, they don't feel the LOVE for you and thus they don't appear to LOVE you.   Once the BPD has his/her needs met by someone else, you, the previous non, practically ceases to exist.  Or more likely, you were the worst boy/girlfriend they ever had because of their Splitting behavior.  But in the BPD's mind, I BELIEVE, they fill in the blanks, from their perspective the relationship came to a natural conclusion.  That's how they feel, that's how it must have been.

I also agree that those behaviors in the "evolution of a BPD relationship" are behaviors that "EVERY woman is CAPABLE of going through... ." However, I think what would be different when comparing someone who is BPD to someone who is not, would be the intensity and degree to which these behaviors are expressed.

Again, someone who does not have BPD, would have object constancy, so their level of attachment would be more in line with their partner's degree of attachment.  Also, the intensity and variance in their emotional states would be more compatible so there would be much less trauma bonding that occurs.  There would be no or less dissociation, so their mutual experience would be a consistent one instead of the "gaslighting" and "splitting" and "distortion campaigns" that exist in BPD relationships.

I'm sure if you took any specific example, the person with BPD can explain and point out how this-that-or-the-other thing doesn't apply to their relationship.  I would believe that person, because they truly believe that it happened that way.  However, it is very likely that the other person in the relationship remembers a vastly different experience (whether or not the other person also has a personality disorder).  And if you compare these kinds of experience with the experiences of those couples who are NOT in a relationship with a disordered person, that "normal" couple might conclude that the person with BPD is not capable of their kind of (healthy, mature) love.  IMHO.

Schwing
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« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2008, 12:31:11 PM »

but just because a person displays those criteria does not necessarily make them a borderline. they could just be conniving.

And if they are more intent of expressing their conniving personality, I doubt they are acting on any feelings of love.

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« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2008, 12:32:36 PM »

true... .

but why would some one want to be diagnosed with BPD... .

diagnoses... .is for the pros ... and thats a crapshoot... .

and after diagnoses... .you now have a title for the unacceptables...

then what...


i will speak for my self...

BPD is a title... .

long before BPD diagnoses... .theres ususally allot of unacceptable behavior... .that is two fold... .it is delivered...

              and its accepted... .
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« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2008, 12:37:40 PM »

TonyC:

the point in all i was saying is this:

just because a person is borderline does not make them incapable of actual love

just because a person portrays some tendencies of borderline does not make them borderline


that is all... .
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« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2008, 12:42:07 PM »

I would agree.  The article seems to make those conclusions.

Personally I don't think someone with BPD is incapable of feeling and expressing love.  HOWEVER, I would argue that the person with BPD's interpretation of what love is, can be very different and in some cases incompatible with what a nonBPD's expectation and experience of what love is.

Part of the problem is, how to define love.  Love is different things for different people, granted.

But read the forums, there are vast examples of people with BPD falling out of love just as quickly as they fall into love.  And the end result is the non is completely shocked and numbed by the (relative to the non) whirlwind changes.  For non, there is a lot more love "inertia," they can't change their attachments that quickly.  And the reasons are because people BPD don't have some of faculties available to them that nons have.

For example, lack of object constancy.  For a non, in a BPD relationship that just ended, they still have residual feelings, in many cases, still very intense feelings for their former BPD partner.  However, IMHO, for people with BPD, those feelings can be gone.  The way some people (ie, me) interpret this behavior is that as long as the BPD doesn't NEED you, they don't feel the LOVE for you and thus they don't appear to LOVE you.   Once the BPD has his/her needs met by someone else, you, the previous non, practically ceases to exist.  Or more likely, you were the worst boy/girlfriend they ever had because of their Splitting behavior.  But in the BPD's mind, I BELIEVE, they fill in the blanks, from their perspective the relationship came to a natural conclusion.  That's how they feel, that's how it must have been.

I also agree that those behaviors in the "evolution of a BPD relationship" are behaviors that "EVERY woman is CAPABLE of going through... ." However, I think what would be different when comparing someone who is BPD to someone who is not, would be the intensity and degree to which these behaviors are expressed.

Again, someone who does not have BPD, would have object constancy, so their level of attachment would be more in line with their partner's degree of attachment.  Also, the intensity and variance in their emotional states would be more compatible so there would be much less trauma bonding that occurs.  There would be no or less dissociation, so their mutual experience would be a consistent one instead of the "gaslighting" and "splitting" and "distortion campaigns" that exist in BPD relationships.

I'm sure if you took any specific example, the person with BPD can explain and point out how this-that-or-the-other thing doesn't apply to their relationship.  I would believe that person, because they truly believe that it happened that way.  However, it is very likely that the other person in the relationship remembers a vastly different experience (whether or not the other person also has a personality disorder).  And if you compare these kinds of experience with the experiences of those couples who are NOT in a relationship with a disordered person, that "normal" couple might conclude that the person with BPD is not capable of their kind of (healthy, mature) love.  IMHO.

Schwing

Im glad you got what I was trying to say and that you have understood my issue with the article... .I am glad that you can see that I am not just feeling strongly or overreacting. I am a BPD and I want people to understand just as badly as you want to understand... .so I had to say something. I still believe that the article should not be so slanted as to say that BPD cannot love for real. Maybe they should add your post to the article so people won't hear the word borderline and run for the hills.
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« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2008, 12:44:38 PM »

As our lovely friend Oceanheart explained as a BPD... .

Excerpt
So yes, the love is “real”, but only in the sense of how it feels to the person with BPD: the feelings seem real, they feel like love.

But it’s not love because it’s based on need rather than on true caring and intimacy, which is the real love we all deserve.

Sure, you can take parts of the article and apply it to anyone man or woman... .emotions are not exclusive to women... .any relationship can have these behaviors at times, but, when the traits of BPD are there and when the pattern is there is extreme and continues on a consistant basis... .this is not a healthy relationship no matter who you are.

We have many articles here that stress the fact that it does take a pervasive pattern over a long period of someone displaying 5 or more of the DSM Criteria for them to be considered BPD... .we can all have some of the traits occasionally and there are varying levels of the illness even when fully manifested.  Those with BPD who are truly able to look at their behaviors, recognize a problem and work on it are brave souls... .it's too bad that so few really do... . 

Cheers to you bulletz if you are one of those few, and here's hoping that you find the healing and peace with your life and your illness... .

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« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2008, 01:01:55 PM »

I think someone should add some type of notes saying that just because the person is BPD does not mean that they are incapable of real love for the other person.

We did as you have suggested - we added a sidebar several months ago... .it was written by a recovering borderline.

There is a lot of interesting history on this piece.  You might want to read what others have said (both non and BPD)

bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=66844

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« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2008, 01:08:24 PM »

Maybe I am reading her response wrong, but as far as I can see it states that she is recovering but that she didn't love either... .
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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2008, 01:15:01 PM »

I can not speak for the author - possibly she will stop by and respond - but I know she worked on this for a while and there are some very complex thoughts she expresses here:

  • she felt like it was love at first


  • she later concluded that there was too much of a "need" component (my word) in her "love"


  • she learned, through recovery,  how to love in a more giving way... .


  • ... .it was failure at love that motivated her to re-look her life and work on herself... .




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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2008, 01:25:46 PM »

Hi Bulletz,

Something to keep in mind, this website and forum and links therein, are produced primarily as a support for people who have loved ones (or are getting over relationships with loved ones) who have or might have BPD.

And as I have pointed out previously, because BPDs and nonBPD ultimately have different definitions, expectations, and expressions of love, from the non's perspective, BPDs are not capable of (the non's version) of love.  And since these links for put together primarily for nonBPDs, it's going to come across as "BPDs are not capable of love."

To change these articles to accommodate the viewpoints of people who have BPD (or might have BPD) may very well change the intent and purpose of this very website.  IMO.

Schwing

P.S.  Something else to consider, on your road towards recovery, some ways down the line, do you think it is possible that your definition of love will change to such a degree that would might look back at your history and say that back then you were not able to love (in a healthy fashion)?
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