POLL: Which one of these best describes your co-parenting relationship?

[Skip]

Tell us about your co-parenting relationship - what are the terms of your CO (or TO), what % time (and type of schedule) do you have with the children, what are the most significant problems facing you, do you use any specific tools (e.g. communications techniques/SET, disarming techniques,  parallel parenting), and how do you do exchanges and communicate with the "other side"?

How would you classify your relationship using the Ahrons2 scale?

POLL: FIVE CATEGORIES OF POST-DIVORCE SPOUSAL RELATIONSHIPS

Constance Ahrons, PhD  (bio at the end of this post) has conceptualized five categories of post-divorce spousal relationships: Perfect Pals, Cooperative Colleagues, Angry Associates, Fiery Foes, and Dissolved Duos.   Which one of these best describes your co-parenting relationship?

PERFECT PALS

Perfect Pals are best friends who were married and have made a mutual decision to go their separate ways. These parents like one another. They usually do all their own legal work and establish a parenting plan that is in the “best interests of the child.” They are flexible and have respect for each other, both as co-parents and as friends. These are the individuals who will be able to celebrate holidays together. Even after remarriage to others, they may, for example, all celebrate Thanksgiving dinner together. When graduation comes, they might purchase one present together for their child and sit together at the ceremony.

COOPERATIVE COLLEAGUES

While still within the co-parenting category, Cooperative Colleagues have a difficult time when they separate. They most likely have attorneys or require a third party to assist in finalizing plans of the marital settlement. Most often these people did not make a mutual decision to separate. They still do not necessarily like each other, but they respect one another as parents. They can separate their parenting from their partnering issues. They support the child’s involvement in each other’s lives and in the lives of the extended families. They are generally courteous to each other. A few times a year, they may have a disagreement that initially will require third party intervention, but they are able to resolve such disputes outside of Court.

Eventually, cooperative colleagues figure out how to avoid getting caught up in the drama of the former partner. At graduation, for example, they may or may not sit together. Either way, they are cordial and not overtly hostile. They will likely feel more comfortable purchasing separate gifts for their child and one might take the graduate to dinner while the other takes him or her to breakfast. These people have let go of each other. They permit and support the child having a relationship with the other parent. As years move on, each is less threatened by the other. The child has two houses and two families under one large conceptual family umbrella.

Now, we move into the more dysfunctional post-divorce relationship categories. Although many still refer to this as co-parenting, I suggest the use of the more apt term, “parallel parenting,” to describe these dynamics.

ANGRY ASSOCIATES

Angry Associates do not know how to emotionally disengage from each other. They are “compatible combatants.”3 They fight well together and thus remain in a destructive relationship from which at least one of the parties was truly attempting to leave. At least one of the partners gets stuck in the emotional process of divorce and cannot move on with life. This can go on for years or, perhaps, a lifetime. These parents are in a persistent and continual power struggle with one another. They regularly require third party intervention (mediators, lawyers, arbitrators, and judges). They do not respect each other as parents, nor as people. Their child becomes a pawn in this unrelenting conflict and his or her childhood is sacrificed to the immaturity of the parents. These are the parents who do not encourage the child to share time with the other parent. Involvement with extended family members is not often a real possibility for the child.

Certainly, if looks could cause harm, injury would happen, (and occasionally does) between these parents. They will definitely choose not to sit near one another at any of their child’s events. More than likely, the parent responsible for the child on graduation day will not encourage the child to acknowledge the other parent, in any way. These parents do not understand that, although they have separated or divorced, the child does not choose to divorce either parent. Unfortunately, these parents see things in black and white, win/loose, and either/or. There is no gray, no win-win in their consciousness. This child will grow up walking on eggshells and scanning the environment to figure out the “right” thing to say and do. The child’s base of operation is one of living in a “war zone.” This child cannot be the loving center of his/her parents’ world. This child exists as the “spoils of war.”

FIERY FOES

The next relationship category, called the Fiery Foes, is one in which the dynamics of the dysfunctional relationship further exacerbate the intensity of the dissolution process. These parents have such disdain for one another that, for example, one of the parents cannot even attend the child’s graduation. Not only does each parent dislike the other, but the child and the eventual grandchild will have to carry the anger down through the generations as to how awful the other parent was as a parent, partner, and yes, human being. The therapist of this child can do nothing more than comfort the child during the therapy sessions. For, after these sessions, the child must return to the family war. The children of these parents suffer psychopathology of the worst order, distress that will assure them of the need for life-long psychotherapy. Often the risks (both physical and emotional) to the child of on-going efforts by their parents at co-parenting are too great. Decisive and sometimes dramatic Court intervention is a virtual necessity with Fiery Foes.

DISSOLVED DUOS

The final category is Dissolved Duos. These parents have reached such an extreme point of pain that one of the parents drops out of the child’s life entirely. The parent typically moves out of state and begins a new family, often never even telling the new spouse that there had ever been another family. This parent would not have even known that their child had graduated. Becoming the departing of the Dissolved Duo is one way to disengage from the emotional pain of divorce, but the price that the child pays in being abandoned is huge.

Constance Ahrons, PhD, is the author of We’re Still Family and The Good Divorce, and co-author of Divorced Families.   Ahrons is Professor Emerita from the Department of Sociology and former Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy Doctoral Training Program at the University of Southern California (USC) in Los Angeles. Prior to her joining the USC faculty, she taught at the University of Wisconsin, Madison.  In 2000-2001 she was awarded a fellowship from the Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study at Harvard to pursue work on her longitudinal research on the effects of a parental divorce on grown children twenty years afterwards.  A Senior Scholar and founding Co-chair of the Council on Contemporary Families, Dr. Ahrons received her Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology and her Masters in Social Work from the University of Wisconsin, Madison.

Ahrons has received several prestigious awards and has published over 40 articles in professional journals.  An innovative thinker with over 30 years of experience, Ahrons coined the term “binuclear family” and has pioneered the concept of “a good divorce”. She has been active in policy formulation for divorce reform and recently has been trained in the collaborative divorce practice model.  

[kellaroo]

I wanted to qualify my response with a few words.

TODAY, on this very day, we are cooperative collegues.

It has been to worse extremes and it tends to dip back into more dysfunctional ways from time to time... .but over the years and with alot of detachment and disengagement, I would say that today, we are cooperative collegues.

[JoannaK]

It seems as if these patterns pertain to the dynamics a few years down the line.  It would be more normal for the parents to be more acrimonious in the early years, before the divorce is finalized.  After 2-3 years, things might settle down.

In terms of graduation, I had no interest in sitting anywhere near my exh, but I did talk to him afterwards.  We had no shared graduation parties; he had a small dinner for son and his friends/family, and I had a small dinner for son and my friends/family later.

[united for now]

I too, would consider myself cooperative now, though during the early phases it wasn't that way 

The new wife wants nothing to do with me - period (I've seen her from a distance on a couple of occasions in 4 years, doesn't come to children's events, though she is suppose to be a nice women), yet my bf and my ex will pleasantly chat and share manly ideas with each other.

I'm lucky my ex and myself were able to settle things so we work together, not against each other.

I truly believe that our attitudes have a lot to do with things - acceptance or non acceptance.

We can pull in opposite directions, or we can work to comm in ways that don't throw fuel on the fire.

Sometimes accepting that things won't be fair or equal is a necessary component of that.

We can lead and only hope that they chose to follow.

We can't control anyone but ourselves... .

[Schottsax01]

None of the above fits my situation.

She is angry, nasty, and outrageous 98% of the time she is able to engage me live.

2% of the time she is actually cooperative.

For me it is... .

I am only angry about 2% of the time (which is expressed in sarcasm, not yelling).  The rest of the time I am actively avoiding contact with her or flat out ignoring her attempts at chaos and disruption.  If she is in her 2% cooperation mode then I am perfectly cooperative.

Three things I have learned the hard way that make having to "share" children with her bearable:

1) Boundaries

2) Low Contact

3) Focus on the things I can control and she is not one of these things

I pride myself on all interactions where I am able to get through it without raising my heartbeat... .too bad this is not an Olympic sport -- I might try out for the team.

George

[Shane Preston]

I would say somewhere between co-operative colleagues and angry associates.

It's an exercise in compromise, where due to legal inaction, I do all the compromising.

If I ask for anything outside what the queen has granted, we revert to angry associates(only one is angry, but thats the description that fits best)

Having said all that w is co-operating this week, and very quietly at that. I'm not niave enough to be fooled by this or expect it to last, but I enjoy it while it does.

Shane

[Oy-vey!]

Since you didn't ask about a BPDx specifically, this is the scenario I am in with my xH:

For the first 12 years post-divorce we were Perfect Pals.

After he arbitrarily stopped paying Child Support and I took him back to court and won - we only communicate via email.  No discernible anger.  Just basic NC.  I'm not sure why he chose to go to email only since the one or two times we've talked on the phone since he lost in court we've had fabulous conversations like we used to - sharing information about our DS and finding good solutions to whatever problems we were having with DS.  According to DS (who is above legal age now) xH has been manipulated into email only by xH's wife.

For M and his BPDxW, FN, they are Fiery Foes.  They are still in litigation 12 years after their divorce was final.  (2 years AFTER I left the relationship with M - they are STILL in litigation).

[oneflewover]

All of my concerted efforts to be a cooperative colleague failed, so unfortunately, I am in the dissolved duo category.

The final category is Dissolved Duos. These parents have reached such an extreme point of pain that one of the parents drops out of the child’s life entirely. (I kind of dispute the pain part -he wanted divorce- and say it is more like lack of desire) The parent typically moves out of state and begins a new family, often never even telling the new spouse that there had ever been another family. (He has left the country)  This parent would not have even known that their child had graduated. (He will know, could know, but chooses to simply not participate/engage) Becoming the departing of the Dissolved Duo is one way to disengage from the emotional pain of divorce, but the price that the child pays in being abandoned is huge.

[koko]

At this point, his children would probably see it as more Cooperative, as it is so distinctly different from what they experienced for several years.  But they are also aware that there is NC, so not sure if they would view it as cooperative exactly.  But they have not been in the position of seeing the anger or fiery foes behaviors in a long long time.  So there's not really any anger, but there's really nothing collegial there either.  koko

[life2live]

I did angry associates. I'm not at that point, more the cooperative collegues. But you're only as strong as the weekest link.

So since xbph is stuck causing drama and using D7 as a pawn, I feel I'm stuck at his level. As much as I've moved forward and want/dream/wish/hope things to be different, I can only control the way I handle co-parenting.

[timsbp]

My uBPDxw and I are usually angry associates although it has dipped into firey foes from time to time. The worst thing about dealing with her is her inconsistency. We can be firey foes in court but at the same time she can leave me a voicemail asking if DW and I want to go to Disneyland with her and the kids. T says XW lives in Disneyland in her head.

I have only learned about BPD in the past couple months. I have just begun to use the coping and communication skills. I started going NC with X at the times when she went evil a few years ago at the suggestion of a T. Now that I am learning about BPD I can look back and see that she had pretty intense extinction bursts durring those times. We just went through a Child Support court battle which was very emotionally draining for me. Now we are pretty much email only or text.

I have alternating weekends with the kids and upto 3 nights a week for dinner. The nights don't happen too much anymore since DW and I live an hour away. For  exchanges I pick the kids up from school or we meet at a gas station between our houses. When we meet I act as if she isn't even there, like the kids are getting in a car that drives itself and there is no-one there in the driver seat.

[sonnyboy]

Fiery Foes, en route to dissolution duos.

I would say that these categories should be re-written to incorporate the aspect of the abuser/borderline parent/ex-spouse.   What I mean is that these categories assume that both parents engage in the hurtful and abusive behavior.  My husband's ex wife is the abuser, and she is the one committing the harms.  We have no contact with her, other than in email.

[dutchie]

I'll try and keep it short:

-Angry Associate(s) - just one of the parents has the anger, which is BM

-Terms of CO - BM has 10 nights, FDH has 4 nights a fortnight. Both have half the school holidays.

-Most significant problems:

1. PAS by BM

2. BM is an alcoholic

3. Different rules at BM and FDH (e.g. no rules at BM)

4. Skids have very low self esteem

5. BM will always try and push the boundaries with the CO

-What are tools we use:

1. Counseling for skids

2. Coming to this forum to get advice on how to address certain issues

3. Reading books like Divorce Poison and Stop Walking on Eggshells

4. Try and set a good example for the skids with our own behavior

5. Talk to teachers about progress and how to help skids improve school work

6. Invest time in skids' interests to try and get their confidence up

7. I could go on...

-Communication between exes:

We have gone LC and now only accept communication as prescribed in CO. BM always tries to put FDH on spot in presence of skids, and gives him no notice of anything either. Also she will decide on things like sports on her own and then announce that FDH had better take skids and pay for half. Since we've gone LC this has been a bit better.

-Exchanges:

FDH used to have to do all the driving since BM considered it FDH's 'privilege' to see his kids and she wanted him to spend 'the extra quality time' in the car while driving them... pfff

So for 10 years FDH did all the driving, and waiting in her driveway for them to come out late.

Last year judge ruled on shared driving so now both parents have to drop kids off at start of visit, which has reduced the chance of confrontation during exchange (as it did with a pick-up). But now BM has to always drop skids off a bit late and sit in driveway for at least 20 mins with skids in car before she lets them come into our house. It'll always be something.

Hope this info helps with your research.

[kellaroo]

Skip, I like the idea of picking a category based on what the child(ren) might see it.

My answer would be the same though... .

I think that even if there is "one" angry parent, then unless the other parent is somewhat of a tibetan monk,  there will be anger in retaliation... .even if it is that you are angry with all of his/her insanity and rages or the effects it has on our children. 

I do think it can be lop sided.  I defiantely think my kids see and fear their fathers anger.  But I also think they would have described our relationship at one point as very angry and that we were enemies.  Now, they even comment on our lack of fighting or our civil conversations.

I like this idea as it does provoke thought and as "crazy" as they may be, we all play apart in the dance from time to time.

[PDQuick]

Children, especially in their younger years are often very emotional. There is less logic and more emotion in these years, and its very important to remember that.

Havent you ever observed a child when they are scared? The first thing they want to do is cling to one of their parents leg for safety. Feeling safe and secure is paramount for a child. They often go to one of their parents for this feeling, because thats the only people they feel truly safe with.

Now, lets just say for example that Dad gets mad in front of the child. That child will quickly cling to their mothers leg for protection. If the mother then vollies a load of anger back, the child now has noone to feel safe with. The child is now caught in the middle of something that isnt theirs. The sad part is that the child is torn, and feels hurt, because they dont feel safe at all.

Anger is best met with calm, especially for the children. We have to remember that the most important thing is our children, and the way they feel. We are adults and can work our issues out with the other parent later. We have to learn to control ourselves for the sanctity of our children. Its all about feeling safe.

[DreamGirl]

I could have voted three times.

My relationship with my exH is Perfect Pals. Not at first, but there was progression.

My relationship with the biological father of my oldest son is dissolved duos. Well closest thing to it. He chose to walk away before we even had a chance to fail at coparenting.

The relationship between my husband and his ex are cooperative colleagues although my husband really strives for the perfect pals. (my recorded vote) They've risen thru the ranks... .they were fiery foes at one point. Never want to go back to that place again.

[livednlearned]

I can see how my dynamic has evolved to dissolved duos, but with some minor variations, I guess we were mostly angry associates.

ANGRY ASSOCIATES

Angry Associates do not know how to emotionally disengage from each other. They are “compatible combatants.”3 They fight well together and thus remain in a destructive relationship from which at least one of the parties was truly attempting to leave. At least one of the partners gets stuck in the emotional process of divorce and cannot move on with life. This can go on for years or, perhaps, a lifetime. These parents are in a persistent and continual power struggle with one another. They regularly require third party intervention (mediators, lawyers, arbitrators, and judges). They do not respect each other as parents, nor as people. Their child becomes a pawn in this unrelenting conflict and his or her childhood is sacrificed to the immaturity of the parents. These are the parents who do not encourage the child to share time with the other parent. Involvement with extended family members is not often a real possibility for the child. Certainly, if looks could cause harm, injury would happen, (and occasionally does) between these parents. They will definitely choose not to sit near one another at any of their child’s events.

It doesn't quite fit, but we did regularly require third party intervention. And it wasn't like this:

More than likely, the parent responsible for the child on graduation day will not encourage the child to acknowledge the other parent, in any way. These parents do not understand that, although they have separated or divorced, the child does not choose to divorce either parent. Unfortunately, these parents see things in black and white, win/loose, and either/or. There is no gray, no win-win in their consciousness. This child will grow up walking on eggshells and scanning the environment to figure out the “right” thing to say and do. The child’s base of operation is one of living in a “war zone.” This child cannot be the loving center of his/her parents’ world. This child exists as the “spoils of war.”

At events, I told S13 to go find his dad and to find me when he was ready to go. I worked really hard the last five years to help S13 overcome black/white thinking and learn to trust his own feelings, define his own values, and more than a lot of kids his age, he knows who he is, what he thinks and believes.

I would be interested to know how these categories would look if it separated out mental health as a variable. There needs to be a Resilient Referee category   I do believe it's possible to be a gladiator in court, and also have wisemind with our kids, putting their needs first both emotionally/psychologically AND legally. It's not easy, though. I had to really work on some deep stuff and depersonalize the court stuff and manage my own anxiety and stress in ways that pushed me to my limits.

[Turkish]

Cooperative Pals, or Perfect Colleagues? We fall somewhere in there.

My Ex wanted to be Perfect Pals when we split, though she lived with us for four months conducting her (juvenile) r/s while periodically neglecting our children, despite me almost begging her to move out. She introduced the kids (then D1 and S4) to her affair partner right after she moved out. It caused emotional problems with them about 3 months later. She backed that of slightly, but then reengaged them. Months after, the kids settled down from not eanting to go with her. Of course, I was very angry at her lack of empathy for them...

Later issues, ongoing, have to do with Parentification, making them responsible for her feelings. We had one good talk about it, when she called me for advice when she lost control and spanked S4 (which is forbidden by the stipulation), but the signs of Parentification are ongoing.

A in all, I stuff my anger, and treat this like business. We do ok talking about the kids, and no matter how I feel about how she ended this, I keep my focus on what's best for the kids. Alienation, no matter how subtle, hurts kids. Period.

On some level, and she's kind of voiced this to me, she realizes her limitations, and in a way, looks to mr for guidance sometimes. Part of me resents it, but part of me is glad that I'm not painted black as a father. A lot of that has to do with how I've handled it, not laying all of the truth out to what she did and how. My focus is protecting S4 amd D2, and keeping how I feel away from them. They are little children, and they need to be who they are without laying adullt concerns upon them, because they can't process this at their age, nor should they. They need to be the kids they are.

[enlighten me]

I also dont think any of the above fits my situation.

Im civil to my exs and we come to agreements over the children. It can be very one sided as my exs call a lot of the shots. We have set access and I stick to this rigidly but my exs will try and change it to suit them. My ex wife has got a lot better but my exgf is still trying to chop and change. Mostly to fit in with her new bf. At times I have to bend like a reed so I dont snap.

[Rubies]

Unfortunately he wants fiery foes.  DD20 and I want peace, safety and sanity.